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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.15 23:57:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Verx Interis on 16/10/2008 00:03:01 <rant started> Okay, I used to think people who played the market shouldn't complain when someone undercuts by a large margin. I had my reasons, blah blah.
So a few months ago I made a quasi-alt and started trading on it. And I have discovered this undercutting is capable of f**king you up more than anything else when some idiot undercuts your 24,997.83 item and sells his at 18,000 ISK. I didn't think it happened that often but oh well..
Anyways this rant isn't about that. It's about a case of true idiocy. Since the previous happens a lot, I got used to it. Now what just happened:
I was selling faction missiles at about 1900 ISK. I come on to check my prices and I see the price went down to 1190 ISK. I'm like what the hell? so I check the market and everyone is selling theirs at that price. I look around a bit and I find the source of the problem.
Someone 10 jumps away put up some missiles on the market for 1200 ISK and someone else undercut it.
WHY??!!?
I'm not so mad that I lost 20m profit as I am that someone, in their right mind, thinks that anyone is going to travel 20 jumps (there and back to Jita) just to get 40% off on their ammo. Here's an idea: Instead of basing your order on the nonexistent 20j trip, why not go, buy those missiles, and take them to Jita to sell for a lot of money? Isn't that a wonderful idea!
Sometimes I just don't get why certain people are allowed to put up sell or buy orders.
</rant over>
tl;dr an idiot doesn't know how to play the market and I'm ****ed about it.
Edited for clarity. --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.15 23:57:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Verx Interis on 16/10/2008 00:03:01 <rant started> Okay, I used to think people who played the market shouldn't complain when someone undercuts by a large margin. I had my reasons, blah blah.
So a few months ago I made a quasi-alt and started trading on it. And I have discovered this undercutting is capable of f**king you up more than anything else when some idiot undercuts your 24,997.83 item and sells his at 18,000 ISK. I didn't think it happened that often but oh well..
Anyways this rant isn't about that. It's about a case of true idiocy. Since the previous happens a lot, I got used to it. Now what just happened:
I was selling faction missiles at about 1900 ISK. I come on to check my prices and I see the price went down to 1190 ISK. I'm like what the hell? so I check the market and everyone is selling theirs at that price. I look around a bit and I find the source of the problem.
Someone 10 jumps away put up some missiles on the market for 1200 ISK and someone else undercut it.
WHY??!!?
I'm not so mad that I lost 20m profit as I am that someone, in their right mind, thinks that anyone is going to travel 20 jumps (there and back to Jita) just to get 40% off on their ammo. Here's an idea: Instead of basing your order on the nonexistent 20j trip, why not go, buy those missiles, and take them to Jita to sell for a lot of money? Isn't that a wonderful idea!
Sometimes I just don't get why certain people are allowed to put up sell or buy orders.
</rant over>
tl;dr an idiot doesn't know how to play the market and I'm ****ed about it.
Edited for clarity. --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
Plim
Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.16 00:12:00 -
[3]
I have just started traded over the past week, and I can tell you, I know exactly what you are getting at
There is no logical reason to undercut your competition by more than 0.1 isk, unless you can undercut them significantly enough to force them out of the market.
So in effect, people are undercutting themselves, because the competition has to lower their price to the same level and the entire market value goes down.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
Pesky LaRue
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.16 00:16:00 -
[4]
i get what you're saying but it seems to me that you're being as blind & naive about this as they are - i also have a trade/industry alt and when someone does this to me, you know what i do? i buy as much of their undervalued product as I can afford and I resell it at the "right price" and I make myself a handsome little profit. i made a tidy little sum of 4 million per on 23 assault frigates over the last week and, frankly, i miss seeing idiots placing Maelstroms up for >110 million.
market PvP - they're doing it to you, take the fight to them!
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.16 00:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue i get what you're saying but it seems to me that you're being as blind & naive about this as they are - i also have a trade/industry alt and when someone does this to me, you know what i do? i buy as much of their undervalued product as I can afford and I resell it at the "right price" and I make myself a handsome little profit. i made a tidy little sum of 4 million per on 23 assault frigates over the last week and, frankly, i miss seeing idiots placing Maelstroms up for >110 million.
market PvP - they're doing it to you, take the fight to them!
I do this when I can. Believe me. But by the time I was able to get on, there was about 500 million in missiles that were at the new price. I can't get them all. But when it's one person with a single item, I'm just like *nom*.
But this is a case of spectacular stupidity. He didn't undercut by too much. He undercut someone 10j away. FAIL. --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
Plim
Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.16 00:21:00 -
[6]
The problem is that sometimes someone else with a large amount of stock reduces their price to the new undercut level, and you end up not really being able to do about it.
I recently saw one product drop by 20% per unit, just because some eejit put some stock on the market at 5mill (PU) below market value. Which, providing the price is within the acceptable range for a sale, is completely illogical, because it will not increase the chance or speed of sale.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.16 00:44:00 -
[7]
I think they should implement something so that if you undercut/overcut by more than 1 ISK it automatically pods you several times with a basic clone. --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.10.16 00:56:00 -
[8]
Precisely, if someone has a large enough stock of something and continues to produce more, say a producer of a T2 item and it gets to a stage where they have a large enough stock, they may feel they get to the famed capitulation level where they will in effect sell for whatever they can get.
Of course there are ways around this such as selling to wholesalers, trying different markets, getting others to do this for you but not all sellers are part of a corporation or seek third-parties to do this.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang |
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.10.16 00:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Blane Xero on 16/10/2008 00:57:34 One word; Eagles.
I bought up 10 eagles before they got boosted, at about 50mill each.
Price shot up to about ~80mill right after the patch, i managed to sell ONE before some DUMB**** set his 100 (yes, 100 fricking eagles) at 51mill.
After taxes, i was making a 2/3mill loss per unit. I ended up just going "Screw it" and floored the eagle prices down to about 45mill in my region as revenge.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.16 01:28:00 -
[10]
The trick to proper trading is to sell when you want to, not when you have to. Just as IRL stocks, sit it out wait for things to stabilize again and keep on going.
Also understand that sometimes a player wants to play the market, either with very high buy orders or low sell orders, hoping that his competitors will pack their bags after a while and go do something else, in which case he now has the market to himself for a while. This only works when there's a low amount of traders for a certain product.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.16 01:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 16/10/2008 01:34:29 agree that I've seen some strange things in the markets.
However, undercutting by more than .01 ISK is awesome. In my experience traders seem to get -very- intimidated when this happens and eventually the competition either leaves or dies down a lot.
Quote: I think they should implement something so that if you undercut/overcut by more than 1 ISK it automatically pods you several times with a basic clone.
Trading isn't happy funtime play where everyone gets an equal share of the profits based on how often they're on to shift their orders down by .02 ISK. If I can do anything to **** you off that might cause you to leave or stop caring so much about a given market then I will do it, and my personal experience suggests it's quite effective.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.16 01:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: I think they should implement something so that if you undercut/overcut by more than 1 ISK it automatically pods you several times with a basic clone.
Trading isn't happy funtime play where everyone gets an equal share of the profits based on how often they're on to shift their orders down by .02 ISK. If I can do anything to **** you off that might cause you to leave or stop caring so much about a given market then I will do it, and my personal experience suggests it's quite effective.
Well obviously I don't actually agree with something like that. It just seems to happen way more than necessary.
And usually if I'm ****ed off I'm stuck with that item cause I got a lot of it and most of my expected profit got eaten. But I still have to sell it. --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.16 02:01:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Well obviously I don't actually agree with something like that. It just seems to happen way more than necessary.
Meh, it depends. For example, this one guy recently undercut a thing I was selling for 10 mil...he set his order at about 7 mil. Personally I think that he overdid it, but since you can get the mod at about 4 mil, he's still making a good profit and he's -severely- dampened my interest in that market.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.16 02:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Well obviously I don't actually agree with something like that. It just seems to happen way more than necessary.
Meh, it depends. For example, this one guy recently undercut a thing I was selling for 10 mil...he set his order at about 7 mil. Personally I think that he overdid it, but since you can get the mod at about 4 mil, he's still making a good profit and he's -severely- dampened my interest in that market.
Yeah, that's an example of doing it right.
But I've seen multiple times where the cheapest orders are in Jita and people still undercut by a lot (which doesn't seem to remove competition seeing as everyone and their mother undercuts them) --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
Darkeen
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.16 02:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Verx Interis Edited by: Verx Interis on 16/10/2008 00:03:01 Someone 10 jumps away put up some missiles on the market for 1200 ISK and someone else undercut it.
WHY??!!?
Just to clarify: not everyone makes their missiles - they could have been "Acquired" from a corp, or stolen, or nicked form someones stolen acct, etc ad nauseum... so getting ANY price in ANY locations could be their motive...
Or they could be trying to screw over the entire market.. Pick and choose..... Regards,
Jason Brisbane
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.10.16 03:35:00 -
[16]
I undercut by 10-20% a lot of times. It's because I'm dumping the stuff I've looted and I want it to sell fast, and I don't have time for .01 games (I'd rather go back and get some more loot). Feel free to buy it from me and "sell at a profit."
Incidentally, I separate the valuable named stuff from junk, and I recycle the junk and sell the minerals, before setting up the orders for the "valuable" named stuff. But yeah I undercut the named stuff by a lot.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.16 03:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel I undercut by 10-20% a lot of times. It's because I'm dumping the stuff I've looted and I want it to sell fast, and I don't have time for .01 games (I'd rather go back and get some more loot). Feel free to buy it from me and "sell at a profit."
Incidentally, I separate the valuable named stuff from junk, and I recycle the junk and sell the minerals, before setting up the orders for the "valuable" named stuff. But yeah I undercut the named stuff by a lot.
See that's exactly what I thought at first, before I traded. But with a 15% margin, people are just going to 0.01 ISK you anyway. At the very least, one person will, and everyone else has to either stop moving that item or undercut that person. The only way to really get a lot of people to ignore your order is to undercut so it's only a little bit above the buy order price, but if you do that you might as well just sell it to the buy order.
A margin like 10-20% does little else besides **** people off and it won't make your stuff sell any faster.
Originally by: Darkeen
Originally by: Verx Interis Edited by: Verx Interis on 16/10/2008 00:03:01 Someone 10 jumps away put up some missiles on the market for 1200 ISK and someone else undercut it.
WHY??!!?
Just to clarify: not everyone makes their missiles - they could have been "Acquired" from a corp, or stolen, or nicked form someones stolen acct, etc ad nauseum... so getting ANY price in ANY locations could be their motive...
Or they could be trying to screw over the entire market.. Pick and choose.....
It just seems to happen a lot without actually screwing the market up or changing much besides me getting a bit less profit. --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.16 03:45:00 -
[18]
Back when I used to sell my own loot (now people just take it off me and pay me up front so I don't have to bother) I used to undercut by 10K isk decrements for stuff like T2 modules (where price is a few mil per mod), and for faction ammo, by like 10-20 ISK, etc.
Reason? Sells faster, less time spent messing about on the market, more time spent killing people to get more loot to sell.
Don't like it? Oh, boo hoo.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.10.16 03:53:00 -
[19]
Well I'm not selling 1500 units daily, I'm typically selling 1-3 per week, so they just buy me out and then it's "nothing to see here folks, ignore that interruption." Haven't had problems thus far.
Anyway, here's a hypothetical question for you:
You do have 1500 widgets in Jita, and you do want to sell them within, say, two weeks, but you don't have time to play the 0.01 game and can only log in to modify your order once every 24 hrs. How do you price?
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Hegbard
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Posted - 2008.10.16 05:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Verx Interis
I was selling faction missiles at about 1900 ISK. I come on to check my prices and I see the price went down to 1190 ISK. I'm like what the hell? so I check the market and everyone is selling theirs at that price. I look around a bit and I find the source of the problem.
Someone 10 jumps away put up some missiles on the market for 1200 ISK and someone else undercut it.
WHY??!!?
Because people are brainless sheep who just mechanically set their prices without any thinking whatsoever. This is why price manipulation works. Wht you do in that case is to try to undercut their prices even more with small numbers of your own missiles and then when the price can't go down more, buy everything and set the price to what it used to be.
Or try this to understand the sheepness of people. Go to a mission hub. Undercut the price of the most popular ammo in the hub to under it's refining value. Watch idiots -0.01 the price under you. Buy all their crap, refine it, sell the minerals. Profit. For an added bonus, try to spot an idiot that you buy the ammo from and then sell minerals to.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.16 07:07:00 -
[21]
There are many reasons for this. In the past I have used it to kill off my market rivals. It is obviously a useful technique since it seems to have driven the OP to the forums.
I think the OP's biggest mistake is in viewing the markets as a friendly place where everyone tries to make an honest ISK. It isn't. The market is as cut throat as deepest, darkest 0.0. People are fighting tooth and nail for their profit margins and will pull any trick they can think of to ruin their competitors.
Once you understand that you are ready to 'play' the markets. You will also be wary of calling an industrialist a carebear -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.10.16 07:13:00 -
[22]
Well, that's the fun of market.
Te price is set by all the players in the market, not just you.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.16 07:38:00 -
[23]
The OP obviously doesn't understand the concept of a 'Free Market'.....
People are free to sell their stuff at the price they want. I applaud that, since I usually buy, not sell stuff
To sum up your post: "I had figured out how to cheat people out of their ISK by selling items overpriced, but the Free Market cheated me out of it! BAN FREE MARKETS!!!"
Seriously, you're pathetic....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.16 08:04:00 -
[24]
Traders like you are always good for market games.
I often put up a whole heap of sell orders, and make it appear like the entire market is moving towards a certain price level, that one has undercut by a lot, and the hordes are following, while in fact its just me simulating 5-10 traders. All just in the hope that a few big players move to that price level, and then swipe the whole stash.
And if the price is good, I do have 500mil available to clean the market.
Its the 0.01 undercutters like yourself that make this tactic viable and profitable. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.16 08:41:00 -
[25]
Hey Verx o/
Yeah, I know what you mean. Really, I do. I've sat and played market games and find the people that undercut like 40% really ******ed sometimes.
But then I've also been the guy who snipes some somewhat-crappy loot off a target and is 10 jumps away from a hub, has corpmates whining for pay and just throws it all up at some ridiculous price just so it will sell faster.
And often times it does.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.16 08:44:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 16/10/2008 08:45:32 People thinking that loot and minerals mined are 'free' are the main source of these kind of stupidity. CCP should reduce drop chances from 50 to 25%, that'll help the T2 market a little ;)
A lot of patience is needed - often times these temporary surges or drops in price don't last very long, but as it is with real stock market, people panicking cause much more mayhem than the original problem.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.16 08:48:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 16/10/2008 08:49:48 Actually the bit that amazes me is how people engage in price wars over tiny quantities - lets say Person A places a sell order for 250k Trit at the regional average of 3 ISK. Person B, probably selling some reprocessed loot, places a sell order 12 jumps away for 5 Trit at a far lower price of 2.5 ISK because they want to shift it quick. Person C looks at the regional prices, assumes the lowest price is 2.5 and undercuts the grand total of 5 Trit, and places a sell order for 150k Trit at 2.4. It's Person C that's the idiot and causes price wars where there need be none.
To those stating it's a free market - well of course it is; it doesn't make the above any less stupid. To add to the issue, you have the idiots who think datacores and minerals are free who are content to undercut and make a loss, because they think they're making a profit.
Competition is good and supply and demand sorts out most prices - I think the bit people might be missing is that as a seller you do need to make a profit, otherwise there's no point in taking the effort to do the building and trading. Any seller worth their salt is going to try and maximise that profit.
It's a cut-throat business, combined with idiots. Great combination. Doesn't stop me making money. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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SaiSai Mei
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.16 09:00:00 -
[28]
After all, market is another PVP game. Not about pew pew pew but about prices changes. In the end, there will be only one winner, the guy who made the best margin.
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.10.16 09:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sokratesz
People thinking that loot and minerals mined are 'free' are the main source of these kind of stupidity.
I would agree, although I think the main problem are the people, who think that a) time spent on playing "0.1 ISK" game/transporting stuff to local hub is free, b) "liquidity" is a funny word for a running nose c) screwing with other people's isk-making business is not a proper thing to do in an internet spaceships game.
------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Estelle Matsuko
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.16 09:26:00 -
[30]
Long live the market stupidity. As a net consumer of ships and gear, I can live with price wars.
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