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First Person View And Control

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UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:17:00 - [1] This is an awesome game, but one thing I've been really wishing it had, is the option to go into first person view [perhaps middle mouse zoom in would take you into first person if you so wish] and first person control in non Battle situations. I understand the control system during battles with the mouse clicks, but the mouse click idea is really annoying when you just want to fly around inside a system. It would be much more enjoyable if both were incorporated, so that you could fly around with the keyboard OR use the mouse if you wish. I know for me, and my clan mates [we've talked about this] this would make Eve Online a far more enjoyable experience, and give everyone an opportunity to go into a more realistic space view. Of course you could scroll back out to the 3rd person view if you are in a battle or whatever.
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:17:00 - [2] This is an awesome game, but one thing I've been really wishing it had, is the option to go into first person view [perhaps middle mouse zoom in would take you into first person if you so wish] and first person control in non Battle situations. I understand the control system during battles with the mouse clicks, but the mouse click idea is really annoying when you just want to fly around inside a system. It would be much more enjoyable if both were incorporated, so that you could fly around with the keyboard OR use the mouse if you wish. I know for me, and my clan mates [we've talked about this] this would make Eve Online a far more enjoyable experience, and give everyone an opportunity to go into a more realistic space view. Of course you could scroll back out to the 3rd person view if you are in a battle or whatever.
Teddeebear044	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:40:00 - [3] I also think that would be a great idea, at least to have the option to be able to do that.
SN1P3R001	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:43:00 - [4] Yeah, I totally agree. First person would add another depth to the game, and it would attract a wider audience (say, more of the FPS people). Also, I agree with wolfcry on the fact that point and click (though it is an RPG, so it's understandable) can get a bit tedious at times. Okay, tedious a lot.
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:52:00 - [5] I want to reiterate, that my idea is not to make it a FPS only, just to give it the OPTION to move around with the keyboard and zoom into a first person view from third person. It wouldn't even make a difference for those players who enjoy third person view and moving with the mouse because they wouldn't even notice the difference unless they intentionally went into first person view, and used the keyboard to move around. So this would be a win win situation, as it would cater to both genres, and it wouldn't bother those who enjoy the way it is now.
Matsumita	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:59:00 - [6] I dont have much of a opinion on the matter but the idea sounds okay-ish, As previously stated its not to make it a FPS or to be able to fly AU's through space via first person but to move around a small area like at a asteroid belt etc.
HiMakaMaka	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:01:00 - [7] Love the idea... It would give the game that little extra touch.
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:07:00 - [8] everybody would love that however the way weapons work, your ship can spin and with the lack of coordinated formations its a completly pointless feature perhaps in 3-5 years if eve is still there but i wouldnt hold my breath even if it wher the case
pxsghost	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:10:00 - [9] I think that the only reason one would really use the first person free controll would be in a frigate or some other kind of quick fighter. I've noticed that the controlls feel like they're built for larger ships. were speed isn't as much of a factor.
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:10:00 - [10] Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 16/10/2008 22:11:35 Alright, aside from the moving around with the keyboard I would at least like to see first person view. I KNOW that wouldn't be impossible, since you can zoom out to see the entire galexy and you can almost zoom in to first person, but it stops short. It would be easy to impliment zooming in the rest of the way so you can choose not to see your ship all day long like a big zit you can't get rid of. Besides, I was more talking about being able to use the keyboard to move around inside systems, not necessarily for battle.
HiMakaMaka	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:13:00 - [11] Originally by: UAFWolfcry Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 16/10/2008 22:11:35 Alright, aside from the moving around with the keyboard I would at least like to see first person view. I KNOW that wouldn't be impossible, since you can zoom out to see the entire galexy and you can almost zoom in to first person, but it stops short. It would be easy to impliment zooming in the rest of the way so you can choose not to see your ship all day long like a big zit you can't get rid of. Besides, I was more talking about being able to use the keyboard to move around inside systems, not necessarily for battle. Lol, good one. Anyway, yes, the option would be a nice feature. Why not have it?
Matsumita	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:19:00 - [12] Originally by: UAFWolfcry Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 16/10/2008 22:11:35 Alright, aside from the moving around with the keyboard I would at least like to see first person view. I KNOW that wouldn't be impossible, since you can zoom out to see the entire galexy and you can almost zoom in to first person, but it stops short. It would be easy to impliment zooming in the rest of the way so you can choose not to see your ship all day long like a big zit you can't get rid of. Besides, I was more talking about being able to use the keyboard to move around inside systems, not necessarily for battle. The first person view from the ****pit would sound alright.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:45:00 - [13] but then all i'd be able to see is the inside of my pod
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:30:00 - [14] Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 16/10/2008 23:30:30 Well if you didn't like the view you could always zoom out a bit.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:35:00 - [15] Originally by: UAFWolfcry Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 16/10/2008 23:30:30 Well if you didn't like the view you could always zoom out a bit. it wouldnt be a first person view if i could see outside my pod.. considering first person would be through the eyes of my clone
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:40:00 - [16] Read the backstory. You are in a goo-filled pod. What you see in third person view is the image from camera drones outside your ship, since your brain is hooked up to the pod. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:46:00 - [17] I don't care about the pod, I want to see a ship view, whether it be just a plain 'no ship in the way of my field of view' or a realistic view of being at the helm, I just want to have the option to get rid of the third person 'ship is blocking my field of vision' view. It takes from the realism. Sometimes I'll want to go third person, sometimes not but the option would be great to have and make it more enjoyable.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:14:00 - [18] If you want a plain way to look at something without your ship in the way, select it and use the LOOK AT button. The camera will center on that. Maybe they could institute a free look system, that might be interesting. As far as "being at the helm"...I repeat, Read the backstory. What you see IS what a pod pilot would see when at the helm. According to the backstory the pod pilot DOES see his ship from a third person perspective due to camera drones. Co ckpits do not exist for capsuleers. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:20:00 - [19] I don't want to do that, I want to fly around in space with first person view, not just have the option to 'look at' something. That's like those cheesy MMORPG games where they think giving you first person view is letting you push a button and zoom in. That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about flying and interacting with things on a first person level. I don't care if nothing changes except the ship is removed from the field of view when you zoom in more, I wouldn't mind that at all. I just don't want to have to look at my ship all day long, being unable to visualize myself actually in the game.
Nona Rebbats	Posted - 2008.10.17 01:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Read the backstory. You are in a goo-filled pod. What you see in third person view is the image from camera drones outside your ship, since your brain is hooked up to the pod. He's right. Look here.
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.17 01:55:00 - [21] Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 01:56:21 I don't think you are fully comprehending what I'm talking about here. I'm not sure I could say it more plainly. I don't care about having a ships point of view. I simply want to be able to have a view where you don't see a 3rd person ship smack in the middle of the screen. Take the ship away when you zoom in and I'm fine. I don't care about the HUD, and I don't care about the POD, just want to be able to fly around in space without looking at my ship from the outside
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:48:00 - [22] Originally by: UAFWolfcry Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 01:56:21 I don't think you are fully comprehending what I'm talking about here. I'm not sure I could say it more plainly. I don't care about having a ships point of view. I simply want to be able to have a view where you don't see a 3rd person ship smack in the middle of the screen. Take the ship away when you zoom in and I'm fine. I don't care about the HUD, and I don't care about the POD, just want to be able to fly around in space without looking at my ship from the outside then you want a different game, backstory doesnt support what you want to see and makes little to no sense in regards to the pilot... since this obviously isnt the game for you, can i have your stuff?
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.17 05:33:00 - [23] Uh... actually no I don't want a different game. I find it absolutely ridiculous that you would say we shouldn't have a first person view because it's not supported by backstory. That's like saying Mario shouldn't be headbutting bricks for coins because in real life he would get brain damage.
Malik Mantille Minmatar Dark Sun Collective	Posted - 2008.10.17 06:31:00 - [24] What I would like, and though it is somewhat different from your wishes, would be a finer granularity to the controls. maybe a "move here" 2d flat map over head option, so I can get in a precise position. or perhaps manual controls to move my ship into posistion. I dislike the 3d go here double click method as it has very rough control factors. ------
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:07:00 - [25] I agree with you there. That's why I wanted to be able to manually control the ship when not in battle. I wouldn't mind it in battle if it wasn't so hard to impliment with the current point of click combat system.
C4LYP50 HeXstoof	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:27:00 - [26] Thumbs up to the OP. Having your ship stuck in the middle of your screen needlessly, and having to justify it with a backstory concerning camera drones and whatnot, is pretty silly, and totally against the immersion aspect of the game. One can reasonably assume that a society technologically advanced enough to have camera drones would certainly have at least a forward facing ship camera interfaced with your pod link, capable of swapping interface to the camera drones on zoom-out. Don't get me wrong, I think Eve ships are beautiful, but we see ours quite enough. As far as 1st person (new) controls.........I'm ambivelant. Kinda think it might be fun to move around using arrow keys, etc., but this doesn't seem a pressing detail to me, and goodness knows what a UI change might bring unintentionally. Lastly, let's not forget: Backstories can be changed to suit the will of game developers, just like player guides. Nothing is written in stone. Brunette By Birth...........Blonde By Nature. ------------------------------------------------ "Your suffering will be legendary, even in Hell." "No tears, please; it's a waste of good suffering."
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:39:00 - [27] Awesome points C4LYP50. I agree whole heartedly.
C4LYP50 HeXstoof	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:18:00 - [28] Another point I just thought about: client lag. Granted, it might not seem so important to those with newer machines, but there's a financial crisis going on, and most folks aren't going to upgrade their machine until they have to, if disposable income is reduced. Since the lag we encounter playing Eve is usually a combination or both server and client side lag (ok, also internet 'chokepoint' lag, but not really applicable to this theory), it would seem to me that 1st person view saves the graphics card from having to redraw the 'iron' everytime you move, thus reducing client lag (most peoples excuse for using classic version of the game), and by extension total lag, at least by a small amount. Disclaimer: Since I'm not an IT person, I can only theorise about this, but it makes sense. Brunette By Birth...........Blonde By Nature. ------------------------------------------------ "Your suffering will be legendary, even in Hell." "No tears, please; it's a waste of good suffering."
Malik Mantille Minmatar Dark Sun Collective	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:21:00 - [29] Originally by: C4LYP50 Another point I just thought about: client lag. Granted, it might not seem so important to those with newer machines, but there's a financial crisis going on, and most folks aren't going to upgrade their machine until they have to, if disposable income is reduced. Since the lag we encounter playing Eve is usually a combination or both server and client side lag (ok, also internet 'chokepoint' lag, but not really applicable to this theory), it would seem to me that 1st person view saves the graphics card from having to redraw the 'iron' everytime you move, thus reducing client lag (most peoples excuse for using classic version of the game), and by extension total lag, at least by a small amount. Disclaimer: Since I'm not an IT person, I can only theorise about this, but it makes sense. biggest client lag in the game? Hull damage... I get over 180fps on two clients with my rig.... if my hull is damaged and I am ANYWHERE NEAR MY ship in view, it chokes it down so bad (well to bout 50fps) ------
UAFWolfcry	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:44:00 - [30] Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 08:46:19 Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 08:45:36 Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 08:44:32 I have a Geforce 8800 GTX graphics card, 4 Gigs of Duel channel RAM, and quad core processor, 64 bit operating system (I built the computer myself), as well as 7mbps internet connection. and my computer still lags up sometimes during fights. Not a whole lot, but sometimes. I think that part of it is server side though.
shady trader	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:05:00 - [31] If you look in the commonly proposed idea's thread at the top of the forum you will find this idea's. The threads also explain why these idea's are not pratical with Eve. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congrated by carebears for the actions.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:07:00 - [32] do PODs have windows ? that's the main question here ... because if no, then 1st person view would show only a blank screen :-) --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Mithfindel Gallente Gariushi Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:36:00 - [33] Edited by: Mithfindel on 17/10/2008 10:38:02 View from the ship wouldn't actually be that bad if we consider prime fiction. If the pod is able to produce a (simulated "computer-generated") view from the perspective of a camera drone a few hundred kilometers away, I'd expect mounting a camera on the hull of the ship wouldn't be that bad. Okay, okay, it could get fried if battle damage happens. How come camera drones don't get fried in, say, doomsday/smartbomb blasts? The ship has a practically never ending supply of new drones? Alright, just make a mechanism that uses that practically never ending supply to replace the hull-mounted sensors. (Btw, your main sensors - that is RADAR, LADAR, gravimetric etc. never seem to get fried. Time to give a hint to the camera manufacturers about what "rugged military tech" means.) So, the fluff excuse is manure. "First person" or rather "hull" view is certainly possible. I'd personally do one-up, scrap the "camera drones are the pilots eyes" idea and call the view the capsuleer sees completely computer generated based on multiple sensor input from sensors mounted both on drones and on hull. For example, the fiction does mention that sound doesn't transmit well in near-vacuum conditions and credits the sounds the capsuleer hears to the advanced pod interface generating audio feedback from sensor data. In real-life technical terms, this is a client-side thing and I assume it's just the matter of fixing the camera (i.e. what you see on screen) location on the ship coordinates, and hide the hull of your own ship. It could even have the camera mounted on the surface of the hull, showing your own hull in the view for those cinematic shots. The "FPS-like" movement is completely another thing. With point and click movement you can do things like "start moving at that direction with this speed", "approach this target", and "orbit this target at x km". Technically you can do the same on "joystick-like" controls, just send control input when it's needed. However, things like orbit change from "orbit at x km" to gazillion-times "change course to (x, y, z) at speed v". Possibly in the order of multiple times per second. Which isn't nice for performance. Technically the client could moderate the amount of requests sent to the server as a kind of an anti-flood measure, but this would likely make the controls seem choppy and still cause more requests to the server overall - while there are people who can "fly manually" with the mouse-based interface, their amount is smaller by a very large fraction that people who would use a "joystick" interface if one would be provided. If we have a look on how the game engine reacts now, we do notice that even on nearly lagless, modules seem to activate in a turn-based fashion. (Can't even be completely without lag, though if you're physically gaming from the building hosting the TQ cluster you could get pretty short response times.) The turn length seems to be in the order of a second or two, though when no commands are taken and the modules have autorepeat active, I'd expect the server to do firing time calculations as accurately as its floating-point algorithms allow. (In other words, if the turret firest every 2.5 seconds, it doesn't get stuck firing "every third turn" (assuming turns of one second). Also on turn-based and real-time games: No games are really real-time, they just use turns that are so short that we can't perceive them. EVE's turns appear (even when the server doesn't lag) to be of longer duration likely because of longer turn times (tics) to save on computing time lost on overhead (book-keeping done on every turn etc.) and because of network lag.
DeckardIRL Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Read the backstory. You are in a goo-filled pod. What you see in third person view is the image from camera drones outside your ship, since your brain is hooked up to the pod. So ship mounted cameras... first person view would be a great addition. I see no reason why you cannot control or fight from first person view. Also the ability t swivel the view from the first person view point esp during a fight would be superb. Deck Whiskey For CAOD at its best
Jach Wong	Posted - 2008.10.17 16:43:00 - [35] First person control + joystick support == win for frig pilots everywhere.
Malik Mantille Minmatar Dark Sun Collective	Posted - 2008.10.17 23:50:00 - [36] Originally by: DeckardIRL Originally by: Kahega Amielden Read the backstory. You are in a goo-filled pod. What you see in third person view is the image from camera drones outside your ship, since your brain is hooked up to the pod. So ship mounted cameras... first person view would be a great addition. I see no reason why you cannot control or fight from first person view. Also the ability t swivel the view from the first person view point esp during a fight would be superb. Deck Eve is essentially a RTS (not a realtime action based reflex game) first person controls would be nice, but their effect really wouldn't be much except on the amount of data transferred. Currently: we either approach location X,Y,Z or move at angle on a 3d plane. With FPS type controls it'd be constant data streaming with each twitch and turn. The data amount would be insane. The reason eve can support 25k people with little lag (yeah I know...shh ) is that every player is not sending each slight left/right/up/down speed increase/decrease left/right roll, etc to the server. This my friend would choke the living hell out of it. I still am 100% for the idea of a direct control over travel to option. I'd like to be able to place the view in an overhead top down view and click an area I wish to travel to in space. But true FPS controls, never will happen, WAY too much data to communicate. ------
ShadowDraqon Awesome Industries Group	Posted - 2008.10.18 01:10:00 - [37] Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 18/10/2008 01:10:05 1) Right-click and hold anywhere in space 2) move the mouse voila. no ship "smack in the middle of the screen". Now an idea: to be able to fix that view, perhaps via a keyboard shortcut? ____________________ I had a sig here, but I NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM nommed it...
Liranan M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.10.18 04:36:00 - [38] Jumpgate Evolution will be released sometime the first quarter of next year. If you really want a first person shooter in space you can always play that. Farjung is my God You people need to open your eyes and read threads before you mindlessly spam the New Thread link.
Tiberius Dresari Caldari Acerbus Vindictum	Posted - 2008.10.18 05:14:00 - [39] Man, tension's high on that first page. Although admittedly I don't exactly understand what you're talking about Wolf, if you're looking for a camera view that doesn't center around the ship, you could hold down (only) the right mouse button and move the mouse around, this swivels what I believe is the camera drone (i.e. rotational thrusters) and you can look at specific things from there. In addition, if you keep your finger on the right-mouse button and click the left and move the mouse inward, it will zoom the camera inward (Think the dramatic space battle squences from the new Battlestar Galactica). Other than that, I can't really help.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.18 10:19:00 - [40] Originally by: UAFWolfcry Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 08:46:19 Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 08:45:36 Edited by: UAFWolfcry on 17/10/2008 08:44:32 I have a Geforce 8800 GTX graphics card, 4 Gigs of Duel channel RAM, and quad core processor, 64 bit operating system (I built the computer myself), as well as 7mbps internet connection. and my computer still lags up sometimes during fights. Not a whole lot, but sometimes. I think that part of it is server side though. 99% is server side. The eve client is extremely light game. But adding IN ship controls would create a hell lot of problems ( i know, i worked on an MMO that tried that). You need to increase the sampling rate of commands the server accept from your client to have a reasonable feeling of command. Increasing the load on network and servers. The dead reckoning procedures need to be far more complex. Also Controls in a "flight sim" style tend to be HORRIBLE when you are lagged. Again i tried, your brain gets even more confused. For that to work the game woudl have to respond realistically immediately. That measn logic in the client that predicts what server will respond to same command then adjust. That would mean a huge change to eve client and be a horrible result on any situation where you have lag above 1 seconds (very common). Resultign in peopel frenetically tryign to compensate end fightign the cotnrols elevating even more the server load. So this is NOT simple thing to do. Not at all. Not at least without leaving the game unplayable. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
ShadowDraqon Awesome Industries Group	Posted - 2008.10.18 12:23:00 - [41] Originally by: Liranan Jumpgate Evolution will be released sometime the first quarter of next year. If you really want a first person shooter in space you can always play that. i think it will go like ZHOOOOMMM CRASH laglaglaglaglag death -Long Live EVE- ____________________ I had a sig here, but I NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM nommed it...
Jach Wong	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Malik Mantille ... first person controls would be nice, but their effect really wouldn't be much except on the amount of data transferred. Currently: we either approach location X,Y,Z or move at angle on a 3d plane. With FPS type controls it'd be constant data streaming with each twitch and turn. The data amount would be insane. I think you're over-estimating the data complexity by several orders of magnitude. At the bare minimum, a system could be implemented to use the same destination XYZ data that's already being transfered, computing updated target coordinates client side and uploading in the current manner. Believe you me when I say that this is an almost trivial piece of code to write. If CCP decides to pursue this using a more complex physics model (namely, one where the ship's orientation is not the ship's vector of velocity), this might grow to a 6 float, 9 float, or 12 float transfer. It's probably important to note at this point that 12 floats is a mere 48 bytes, hardly worth a fuss. "This is not the boot you're looking for."
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:15:00 - [43] The main problem with this concept is the game engine combined with latency. Double click in the middle of space and time how long it takes you to start moving. That's how long it will take for a first person view mode with twitch type controls will take to respond, which can be up to 2-3 seconds, it's really quite silly when you think of it, CCP could waste their time on other more useful things... such as uhh... that bug that causes to wallet to not update until you undock or whatever... or those stations they STILL haven't fixed the docking ranges on like they said they have. ------ FIX THE BLOODY OVERVIEW ALREADY! SPEED NERF! RUN FOR THE HILLS!
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:43:00 - [44] since noone seems to have said it yet, let me explain why first person controls are a bad idea. go into space. double click a direction. count how long it takes before your ships changes course. depending on where you are in the world (as long as you arnt in iceland) it will take between .5 and 3 seconds. imagine that lag EVERY time you press a control. it would be impossible to manually fly your ship, IRL tech doesn't give you fast enough communication with the eve server to do that. as for 1st person view. yes, i suppose you could do it, but it would be useless. most of the time your enemies arnt infront if you. - PvPers always say "GB2WoW". the message is that EVE is hard, and people just need to deal with it. wasn't it funny how when nano's started making it hard for them, that all went out the window?
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.21 08:01:00 - [45] Originally by: Jach Wong I think you're over-estimating the data complexity by several orders of magnitude. At the bare minimum, a system could be implemented to use the same destination XYZ data that's already being transfered, computing updated target coordinates client side and uploading in the current manner. Believe you me when I say that this is an almost trivial piece of code to write. If CCP decides to pursue this using a more complex physics model (namely, one where the ship's orientation is not the ship's vector of velocity), this might grow to a 6 float, 9 float, or 12 float transfer. It's probably important to note at this point that 12 floats is a mere 48 bytes, hardly worth a fuss. You're completely missing how EVE is implemented, something that has been discussed at length. That mere 48 bytes has to go into a one-second timeslice operation. Therefore your latency on FPS-style twitch-based play is a course change per second. Try changing your direction and fire in Unreal Tournament once a second and see how well it works. This ignores that that mere 48 bytes is per person, per portion of a second - let us say 100th of a second for simplicity. That is 144 megabytes per second just of control data of 30000 players, let alone market data, combat data, physics, and all the other operations that the EVE servers must handle. That is roughly 20-30 dedicated T3 lines just for control data (an average T3 giving 44 megabits per second). This proposal is not and never has been possible with current EVE hardware - for comparison's sake, since the EVE system is CPU-bound for the first time since the introduction of Stackless IO, we can assume that the one-second time-slice is pushing that set of CPUs to the limit. Therefore to have a hundredth-second time-slice, a bare minimum for twitch-style play, the CPUs would have to be 100 times faster to operate the same code and keep the same level of traffic. That scale simply cannot be achieved at this time. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Jach Wong	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:59:00 - [46] Edited by: Jach Wong on 21/10/2008 20:00:00 Originally by: Astria Tiphareth This ignores that that mere 48 bytes is per person, per portion of a second - let us say 100th of a second for simplicity. That is 144 megabytes per second just of control data of 30000 players, let alone market data, combat data, physics, and all the other operations that the EVE servers must handle. That is roughly 20-30 dedicated T3 lines just for control data (an average T3 giving 44 megabits per second). This proposal is not and never has been possible with current EVE hardware - for comparison's sake, since the EVE system is CPU-bound for the first time since the introduction of Stackless IO, we can assume that the one-second time-slice is pushing that set of CPUs to the limit. Therefore to have a hundredth-second time-slice, a bare minimum for twitch-style play, the CPUs would have to be 100 times faster to operate the same code and keep the same level of traffic. That scale simply cannot be achieved at this time. First of all, any first person system in EVE would certainly have a lag factor, and while you may supply real time commands via joystick or mouse, the result of those commands would be delayed half a second or more. That much is given. I'll bite and take your 100hz data rate, even though the actual rate of communication for ship behavior is almost certainly much much lower. That comes out to 4.8KB/s of data per client, for 480KB/s of data in your typical "busy" system and 4.8MB/s of data in your typical Sunday Jita. Factoring node sharing, we could safely assume 10MB/s of data transfer for a 12-float setup without any form of data optimization. Off the top of my head, this can be reduced to 4 bytes/cycle client to server and 24 bytes/cycle server to client just by reducing the upload to 256 resolution commands for orientation and (principle-axis) acceleration. At 60hz, the typical player perceives seemingly smooth control, but even at 25hz there's at most a slight bit of chop. Servers can always adjust cycle frequency by current load. So, 25hz * 28 bytes/cycle * 2000 players/node = 1.4MB/s for any given node. Edit for missed quote tag. "This is not the boot you're looking for."
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.22 16:29:00 - [47] Originally by: Jach Wong At 60hz, the typical player perceives seemingly smooth control, but even at 25hz there's at most a slight bit of chop. Servers can always adjust cycle frequency by current load. So, 25hz * 28 bytes/cycle * 2000 players/node = 1.4MB/s for any given node. With respect, you're still missing the point. I agree, 100Hz is probably excessive, and you can optimise down, but even so, you're asking for a 25hz update frequency on a server system, and assuming direct access to a given node, neither of which is possible. The current info available about the EVE architecture is that they have a series of public proxies which handle all traffic, which in turn talk to nodes, which in turn talk to backend databases. Node processes run on a one-second tick cycle at the end of which they inform the client about the real update that the client was faking over that one second. So in order to scale what you are talking about to the current EVE servers, the public proxies must accept an increase in traffic on the order of 21MB/s, or to use my (probably inaccurate but apt) T3 analogy, tack on another 3-4 T3 lines. Doable but certainly a traffic increase not to be sneezed at since this must be passed around to the correct node - sadly they don't reveal how efficient that process is so it might handle the increase seamlessly, it might not. Given that simple internal networking protocols like Ethernet can easily handle that sort of traffic level, it probably just means tacking on more public proxies. Far worse however is that in order to process that 25hz data, the CPUs of all the nodes must be increased in speed by a factor of 25, or the underlying architecture changed so that more blades and thus 25 times more CPUs can be thrown at the problem; this means splitting a solar system over more than one blade and has already been stated by CCP as 'long-term nice-to-have, short-term can't do right now because it means recoding the entire underlying node engine to multi-thread etc'. I don't think I'm saying it can't be done. I think I question the effort required, when I'd rather have lag-free fleet battles and a server that supports 750000 players instead of 30000 for the same sort of investment (assuming a linear scaling which won't in practice apply, but you get the point I'm sure). ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Jach Wong	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:15:00 - [48] I realize what you're saying, but consider the following: The 25hz updates for ship physics do not need to be processed in the same 1hz cycle of principle updates. Nor do ships not being piloted in first person need to be updating ship physics at 25hz. A relatively simple way of resolving this issue would be to patch in a set of physics servers which take first person control data (when it is sent), process and return the resulting position and orientation data to the client at 25hz, and forward updates to the principle servers at 1hz. These physics servers would have to exchange ship attribute information, but that can be done by using the physics servers as a proxy between current servers and clients. In effect, such an implementation would not increase the load on current servers while preventing players from hacking their client and achieving undesired physics. "This is not the boot you're looking for."
Belmarduk Amarr M.A.R.S. Enterprises Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.10.22 19:21:00 - [49] Originally by: Teddeebear044 I also think that would be a great idea, at least to have the option to be able to do that. Yes this would be a nice feature. Perhaps just put a "mask" over the screen with a bit of "inship" stuff - the bridge-window being the (rest of) normal space view? Mainchar:
Junaum	Posted - 2008.11.04 16:09:00 - [50] Edited by: Junaum on 04/11/2008 16:10:43 I wish for this feature since I first played EVE. I would give EVE a "simulator game" aspect to piloting. And I disagree with the man who said it's a frigate/cruiser only thing - explanation: While playing in my Rokh (railguns) I usualy try to get parallel to the target "path", flying side by side with him, taking the "Angular Speed" to minimum, just like our actual Navy Sea Ships does on real wars (and the old pirate sea ships did). Now, If I could play from the pod ****pit, and have a camera inside it that I could turn around and check the surroundings, with zoom, (just like any flight simulation game has), it would make my gameplay style much more enjoyable and precise. For Frigates and cruisers it would be really fun too, but Battleships would win with this aswell. Oh, and you don't need "windows" on a pod nor anything like that. Just a HUD (heads Up display) overlaying an external camera view, which is a technology we already have on our warfare vehicles.
Jiix Zix Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.11.04 16:22:00 - [51] Originally by: UAFWolfcry This is an awesome game, but one thing I've been really wishing it had, is the option to go into first person view [perhaps middle mouse zoom in would take you into first person if you so wish] and first person control in non Battle situations. I understand the control system during battles with the mouse clicks, but the mouse click idea is really annoying when you just want to fly around inside a system. It would be much more enjoyable if both were incorporated, so that you could fly around with the keyboard OR use the mouse if you wish. I know for me, and my clan mates [we've talked about this] this would make Eve Online a far more enjoyable experience, and give everyone an opportunity to go into a more realistic space view. Of course you could scroll back out to the 3rd person view if you are in a battle or whatever. Well, the first problem in this is that we are not flying, but floating in a liquid like substance (submarine online) - you can see the effect by flying, using your ab/mwd and turning it off you can see your ship slowing down :) Have to say it would be awesome if they would develop free flight, actual space and you would actually shoot by yourself and calculate if the guy is going that way how much you have to fire before etc perhaps some crosshair from ships comp to calculate the estimate route :) It would be awesome, although, the big blob fleet wars would need estabilished command center and a leader(s) there would have to view the combat field through deployable cameras or such sensor info :) - J
Junaum	Posted - 2008.11.04 16:52:00 - [52] Floating on a liquid something is not a problem when you have a full HUD attached to your face, and connected to all kind of sensors/cameras outside of your ship - Something that today's Fighters and battle helicopters already have (Apache, Comanche, F-22, Sukoi... )

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