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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 15:43:00 -
[31]
Then again, in a balanced system, setting up a safespot should be difficult as well. Because, at the moment, it isn't  .
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.06.27 15:44:00 -
[32]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 27/06/2004 15:54:50
 Quote:
So how is 20 people trying to find 1 dude in the same solar system and not being able to due to bad game mechanics fair?
It isn't... and neither did I say it is. Please read my posts again Sally. I can understand your anger and frustration as your current situation as a hunter isn't fair and I know that. However you do not imporve the situation by simply forcing your enemies into your situation by killing safepots and any means of hiding altogether. In fact, that's what I'd call 'carebearing a discussion'.
Quote:
Then again, in a balanced system, setting up a safespot should be difficult as well.
In a balanced system CO-frigs would be able to mark you as a target so that your enemies can warp to you from anywhere. The difficulty would be staying hidden from enemy scouts and avoiding to be marked as a target.
Anyone who ever played Darkspace will know what I mean.
Mai's Idealog |
Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 15:52:00 -
[33]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
In a balanced system CO-frigs would be able to mark you as a target so that your enemies can warp to you from anywhere. The difficulty would be staying hidden from enemy scouts and avoiding to be marked as a target.
Anyone who ever played Darkspace will know what I mean.
Do you contest that setting up a safespot is horribly easy, though?
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.06.27 15:56:00 -
[34]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 27/06/2004 15:58:30
Quote:
Do you contest that setting up a safespot is horribly easy, though?
No. Why should I?
I do not think that safespots are the actual problem (besides the off-system BMs which I consider pretty lame). The problem is that fleets assembled of dozens of ships aren't able to mark targets and this is what CO-frigs should do IMO.
Mai's Idealog |
Sochin
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Posted - 2004.06.27 15:58:00 -
[35]
We need safespot busting because it is impossible to wage a real 'war" when pvp is almost entirely consentual. Here is a prime example:
The SA was blockading U-Q in Curse space with a sizable force. The Curse fleet rallys with larger force and jumps into the system to retake our territory. The SA fleet is setup 100km from the gate we jumped in from. We all uncloak simultaniously, and manage to lock down two battleships before the entire fleet decides they didn't want to fight and safespot.
It shouldn't be possible to hide from us for as long as they want like that. We should have been able to destroy the entire damn fleet by locking down the entire system and finding that safespot. The point is: An entire fleet should not be able to escape battle when we are already in system trying to engage them.
SA came to our space, blockaded our system. We brought superior firepower, and they just safespotted. It is ridiculous that a fleet can wait until the last possible second, after our fleet has decloaked and started shooting at them, before they can decide to run away.
Nemo me impune lacessit
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.27 15:59:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Hakera on 27/06/2004 16:10:38
The problem with removing safespots is that you removing the ability to hide and that is a big change.
Without the ability to hide people will just log off.
I do not like the proposal of removing spots but I do believe they should be easier to find through better triangulation methods. Possiblly through a module usable on black ops etc.
It is feasible to allow the warp to ship ability within 1 million km or possiblly 1-5AU range for black ops imo, that is a nice balance to allow hiding but to also allow easier ways to find spots.
This could be done and also when in black ops ships, the range to a ship is displayed within 5 AU to indicate you are within range using your 'advanced short range sensors'
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Telsa Lightning
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Orestes
Do you contest that setting up a safespot is horribly easy, though?
If they were harder to make, wouldn't there still be the same amount of them made, just it would take longer?
Or how about they decay over time. So after a few days (weeks?) they disapear from bookmarks?
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:03:00 -
[38]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 27/06/2004 15:58:30
Quote:
Do you contest that setting up a safespot is horribly easy, though?
No. Why should I?
I do not think that safespots are the actual problem (besides the off-system BMs which I consider pretty lame). The problem is that fleets assembled of dozens of ships aren't able to mark targets and this is what CO-frigs should do IMO.
Then, if the method of creating them isn't difficult, why should the method of finding them be difficult?
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Sochin
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:05:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Sochin on 27/06/2004 16:08:51
Originally by: Hakera
Edited by: Hakera on 27/06/2004 16:02:47
The problem with removing safespots is that you removing the ability to hide and that is a big change.
Without the ability to hide people will just log off.
So, at least if we're quick we can find their ships and destroy them before they dissapear. I don't think you should be able to hide from people indefinantly, which is what safespots do.
Combat doesn't work right when people have the ultimate degree of choice in if they want to fight or not.
As for finding safespots to quickly, long ago I suggested that Covert Ops frigs should first be required to get an object on 15 degree directional scan within a certain AU range before it could warp to something. This combined with eliminating the ability to make "supersafespots" 150 AU from anything using the map would make things right.
Nemo me impune lacessit
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:06:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Then, if the method of creating them isn't difficult, why should the merhod of finding them be difficult?
Your cloak would bring you close enough and from there it's simply a matter of activating your bug-launcher to mark your target. How's that difficult?
Mai's Idealog |
Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:06:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Telsa Lightning
Originally by: Orestes
Do you contest that setting up a safespot is horribly easy, though?
If they were harder to make, wouldn't there still be the same amount of them made, just it would take longer?
Or how about they decay over time. So after a few days (weeks?) they disapear from bookmarks?
How do you know which bookmark in your folder is a safespot and which one isn't? The server certainly can't 
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:07:00 -
[42]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Quote:
Then, if the method of creating them isn't difficult, why should the merhod of finding them be difficult?
Your cloak would bring you close enough and from there it's simply a matter of activating your bug-launcher to mark your target. How's that difficult?
Probably the bit where being cloaked makes it impossible to activate modules .
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Telsa Lightning
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:08:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Orestes
How do you know which bookmark in your folder is a safespot and which one isn't? The server certainly can't
Any bookmark that is not within 1M KM of a warpable object?
That's asking a lot of a server
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:10:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Probably the bit where being cloaked makes it impossible to activate modules
Nitpicker 
Then you uncloak and launch the bug or you give CO-frigs the ability to launch bugs while cloaked. The detailed mechanics are up to CCP but I think you know very damn well what I'm trying to get at.
Mai's Idealog |
Sochin
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:10:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Sochin on 27/06/2004 16:12:37
Decaying safespots wouldn't work because its to damn easy to make totally unbreakable safespots. It only takes a couple mouse clicks.
And the bug idea wouldn't be good enough, the map allows anyone to see whats on the way to them, so big fleets could still safespot before you got there.
Nemo me impune lacessit
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:14:00 -
[46]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Quote:
Probably the bit where being cloaked makes it impossible to activate modules
Nitpicker
Then you uncloak and launch the bug or you give CO-frigs the ability to launch bugs while cloaked. The detailed mechanics are up to CCP but I think you know very damn well what I'm trying to get at.
I know what you're getting at. Such a system would be fun and bring in a bit of tactics, but more often then not an engaging fleet doesnt even get the chance to attack, before the hostiles warp to their safespots.
I don't see planting bugs as a realistic option to combat safespots. I'd rather see a delay on results, and a margin of error in finding ships.
Join the IC! |
Sally
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:15:00 -
[47]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 27/06/2004 15:54:50
Quote:
So how is 20 people trying to find 1 dude in the same solar system and not being able to due to bad game mechanics fair?
It isn't... and neither did I say it is. Please read my posts again Sally. I can understand your anger and frustration as your current situation as a hunter isn't fair and I know that. However you do not imporve the situation by simply forcing your enemies into your situation by killing safepots and any means of hiding altogether. In fact, that's what I'd call 'carebearing a discussion'.
I have read your posts.
From my perspective you are carebearing the discussion anyway.
From my point of view the lame ultra-consent PvP stuff in EVE needs to go in unsecure space. All of it. This will never happen, CCP is a Carebear Controlled Proudctions company, but it still needs to go.
I'd prefer to be killed 20 times in a row going from 0.5 to 0.0 to learn that some dudes have claimed a solar system rather than having this local/map radar, safespot, instant jump bookmark, log off exploit, navigation skill imbalance, 8 warp core stabs and triple MWD bull**** (to name a few).
Your main argument is worthless, when my enemies are forced to adapt, so am I. When I can bring a fleet to screw them, they can bring a fleet to screw me also.
To move alone through space infested with enemies should demand skill or time or ISK or be risky. It's not the case.
It needs a radical change and best radical change to broken game mechanics is: remove them.
If you want to hide in 0.0 give us a module (stealth) and a module to counter it (see hidden) which works skill strength and module strength based and we are fine.
--
Stories: #1
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Sally
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:20:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Orestes
Originally by: Telsa Lightning
Originally by: Orestes
Do you contest that setting up a safespot is horribly easy, though?
If they were harder to make, wouldn't there still be the same amount of them made, just it would take longer?
Or how about they decay over time. So after a few days (weeks?) they disapear from bookmarks?
How do you know which bookmark in your folder is a safespot and which one isn't? The server certainly can't
Everything more than a few hundred km away from an object in space is a safe spot. Since the Y/X/Z positions of objects in space are known to the server, the safe spots are also (simple calculation).
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Stories: #1
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:21:00 -
[49]
Quote:
I know what you're getting at. Such a system would be fun and bring in a bit of tactics, but more often then not an engaging fleet doesnt even get the chance to attack, before the hostiles warp to their safespots.
It worked in Darkspace... and it worked pretty well.
You also have to consider that CO-frigs have cloaking ablities which can bring you much closer to an enemy fleet than current scouts. I also know that fleets do not hide at safespots all of the time. That's exaggerating IMO.
I know from my experience that if I would've been able to mark targets right now, a lot of our former enemies would've died instead of being safe at their BMs and I know that I would've died several times for the same reason.
Removing safespots altogether would simply result in heaps of whining and IMO it would be justified. Never being able to find someone is unfair, but never being able to hide anywhere is just as unfair.
Mai's Idealog |
Telsa Lightning
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:23:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sochin
Decaying safespots wouldn't work because its to damn easy to make totally unbreakable safespots. It only takes a couple mouse clicks.
Yes, good point. Hmmm people are so tricky, aren't they. Ok, how about this logic (as I try to beat this idea to death): All bokmarks in deep space (away from a warpable object by X KM), will decay within a day. All bookmarks that are near that decayed bookmark by X KM, will also decay at the same time.
I see, same problem though. You can still warp into a system, make your 2 good safe spots (as they are very easy to make now), and use them for a day without a problem. But this might balance it, as you have to do this each day. So there will still be a problem with camping a system, and having someone make 2 safespots wuickly and passing the bookmarks around within a minute or so.
Maybe make the safespots active with a variable time? Say you make a bookmark in deep space. It shows up in the bookmark folder, but it is not active for awhile. It take a few hours (depending on how far it is away from a warpable object) before it becomes active, and you can use it.
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Garramon
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Posted - 2004.06.27 16:52:00 -
[51]
Well, its obvious Orestes is on the side of those who want safespot busters....but I can't figure out what he's pointing at...
I must say though, battle is pretty lame ATM. The other day we had scouts two systems away, watching an <??> force. We saw them switch directions and try to come in through a different gate. We came out of warp at that gate just as they were uncloaking, warping to their safespots.
So we waited for two hours, upon which it got very late and most of us had to dock and log, while they called us pussies. Ya, that was exciting...
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2004.06.27 17:36:00 -
[52]
Heres an idea.
Disable bookmarking while in mid-warp, and disable warping to a gangmate who is in warp. Now you can still make safespots by 1) Cap draining to get limited warps, or 2) flying on impulse away from something.
Still have them, but now they take some time to make. Anyone can make a half-decent safespot within 30 seconds of entering a system with current mechanics.
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 17:49:00 -
[53]
A better option would be Black-Ops frigates needing a module, activate module, wait a lil, get a list of who is in space currently, right click, warp to.
Simple as that, it needn't be any more difficult. With such a module, introduce a countermodule, base efficiency and chance of getting a 'reading' on something on skills and module rarity, and voila! No need to run around cloaking, trying to tag people.
Easier too, I might add.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.06.27 17:56:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Easier too, I might add.
Yeah... and boring as hell.
Mai's Idealog |
Astaroth
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Posted - 2004.06.27 18:15:00 -
[55]
your forgetting a few things....
first sombody has to be in a black ops frig to be able to warp to a safespot, i doubt the frig will have much value except for that. (Do u want to be the guy hanging out with the fleet doing **** all until the opponents safespot and then get ganked while your gang is warping to u?)
second destroyers will be out by that time making frigs that warp to them rather dead(safespot team warps to a second safespot while safespot busters are still warping to the dead frig)
third it has been repeatedly said that the frig will have to get u on scanner to be able to close in on your position.... safespotter can also use scanner to see if there is a frig hunting him, and then take precautions. Plus it will certainly take some time to get to the safespot.(the right click name warp to thingy is silly)
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Helison
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Posted - 2004.06.27 18:17:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Orestes
A better option would be Black-Ops frigates needing a module, activate module, wait a lil, get a list of who is in space currently, right click, warp to.
Add a maximum range to the module and the method is perfect.
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2004.06.27 18:21:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Orestes
A better option would be Black-Ops frigates needing a module, activate module, wait a lil, get a list of who is in space currently, right click, warp to.
Simple as that, it needn't be any more difficult. With such a module, introduce a countermodule, base efficiency and chance of getting a 'reading' on something on skills and module rarity, and voila! No need to run around cloaking, trying to tag people.
Easier too, I might add.
Gonna assume you're responding to me. ;)
While new modules would be the best option in the long term, my suggestion doesn't really require any development. Just add a condition to two different actions, and it's on TQ. (I'm sure its more complicated than that in code, but the logistics are simple) Keep in mind those two 'features' I mentioned serve no other purpose than safe-spotting, so theres nothing to break. And the change would not require the development of anything new.
What you're suggesting is post-Shiva at best, and is dependant on the release of new ships/modules to impliment.
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.27 18:31:00 -
[58]
Not specifically to you Atrius, more generally .
Though, everything discussed in this thread is post-shiva
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.06.27 20:02:00 -
[59]
The whole "warp to object" option is just such a cop out. It should require some effort to find someone within a system. With a bit of thought a whole area of the game can be massively improved and made more fun and rewarding for all.
What I would prefer to see;
1) Improved ship scanner:
I would rather like to see an improved ship scanner, with a scanning range bonus given to recon frigs, and to normal ships when fitted with a new module. A better way of angling your ship is needed, ideally some sort of graphical compass around your ship with your bearing needs to be displayed, with handles / toggles for precisely rotating your ship (e.g. like the rotate handles in Maya).
2) Covert ops frigates
They should be able to fire a tracking device / bug (as previously mentioned) that will allow your corp or gang members to warp to a ship. The covert ops frigate would be able to fire the bug while cloaked and the bug would last for up to 12-24hrs (Would take considerable time to attach bug and at close range). The tags would also show up on the map, hence ships can be tagged by scouts but then found and dealt with later by larger forces. This would allow for instance the tagging of illegal miners found in alliance space, the tagging of ships for finding their safe spots or those of there entire fleet, or tagging to track a players movements and see where they operate and their base of operations are etcà
Covert op frigates (with a special module) should also be able to analyse and follow warp trails (the people who have played Elite 2 will know what I mean). Every time someone warps a signature is left at the point they warped from. This trail only lasts for a short time, but can be analysed (takes time based on skill) and the destination point calculated. This would allow for hunting / chasing of ships across multiple locations and systems, where it wasnÆt possible to get a tracking bug attached. Since the warp trails only last for a very short time, would be hunters would have to arrive soon after their prey went to warp.
Covert op frigates should also be able to fit a module that allows them to paint a target with a laser beam (or ionised beam or what ever) while cloaked. This increases the signature radius of the targeted ship allowing the painted ship to be targeted by corp or gang members from a much greater distance away, and with greater accuracy. (I saw this mentioned on the forums else where before).
Clearly this gives covert op frigates several useful roles:)
3) Removal of the show all pilots in space map data.
Nerf the all seeing all knowing map, so that player locations are not revealed. Ships destroyed data should also have a lag of 1 hrs in empire, and be unavailable or have a lag of 24hrs in 0.0.
4) Adding of 2 modes of operation to local chat channel û passive and active mode.
Active mode would be the same as the current local chat operation. A player would appear in local and can freely chat. In passive mode a player does not appear in the local chat channel however is still able to pick up all the local conversation and can join into that conversation at anytime at which point they then automatically switch to active chat mode.
Continued....
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.06.27 20:09:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Xavier Arron on 27/06/2004 20:13:43
5) And for alliances; POS û Sensors.
Since POS components are going to be fairly cheap, each costing from the price of a cruiser up to the price of a BS, it will be possible for alliances to build many of these within their territory.
Member corporations can build these stations to support their own operations as well as the alliances. As such to encourage this further and to provide a way for alliances to monitor their territory, I suggest that POS should also be able to provide real-time sensor data of the surrounding system and any systems connected to it by a gate. In the grand scheme of things this is still a small area of coverage; however it will encourage alliances to build many POS at key systems and at systems that are well connected to many other gates.
It should be made possible for the sensor data provided from a POS to be available in some sort of tactical overview window. This could represent the data as icons in a 3D view similar to the radar view and containing the info also found on the current system map. It would be possible for a commander to set a waypoint on this map and for corporation / alliance members to warp to this waypoint. (E.g. enemy fleet is hiding / re-grouping in safe spot within system, waypoint can be added and a fleet can jump straight to them. û this represents an advantage of fighting on home turf.)
Corp CEOÆs and corp members with the role ôCorp Intelligence Officerö would be able to see tactical overviews from all their corp owned stations. Corp CEOÆs and alliance members with the role ôAlliance Intelligence Officerö would be able to see tactical overviews from all POS owned by alliance members thus allowing them to see the ôgrand pictureö and more effectively co-ordinate and deploy their forces.
There would be plenty of ôgapsö in between, which would have to be filled by using scouts such as interceptors and the new covert op frigates. However this would still provide plenty of places for ships to manoeuvre within the shadows as it were.
Cloaked ships would obviously not appear on sensors and could thus become more valuable within combat û e.g. for scouting out targets such as bases to attack, mining ops etcà
With a wide variety of tools, the possibilities are endless.
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