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[ISSUE]CSM please represent players *now* on ghost-skilling!

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Brother Welcome Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.18 08:47:00 - [1] Edited by: Brother Welcome on 18/10/2008 08:49:32 Many players are dissatisfied with how CCP has handled the ghost-skilling nerf, and of course with the nerf itself. Dealing with this issue unequivocally comes under the CSM remit to 'represent'. So, reps, please represent us. Please press CCP to 1) Unhide the complaints thread. 2) Stop locking discussion threads on the topic. 3) Respond to customers complaints. 4) Provide supporting detail for information to date that is perceived as disingenuous. 4) Reconsider the feature change in the light of customer desires and expectations. Thank you. -vk
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.18 08:48:00 - [2] I've already put it on the CSM agenda for tomorrow, don't worry, we read locked threads too. --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
Brother Welcome Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.18 08:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I've already put it on the CSM agenda for tomorrow, don't worry, we read locked threads too. That was fast! Thank you. ./impressed -vk
NereSky Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.18 08:57:00 - [4] I cannot believe they locked a thread - way to go CCP or should i say CCCP
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.10.18 08:58:00 - [5] Originally by: NereSky I cannot believe they locked a thread - way to go CCP or should i say CCCP I have already dispatched a mail to CCP saying that it's unacceptable. I hope it will be back open very very soon
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2008.10.18 11:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I've already put it on the CSM agenda for tomorrow, don't worry, we read locked threads too. Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: NereSky I cannot believe they locked a thread - way to go CCP or should i say CCCP I have already dispatched a mail to CCP saying that it's unacceptable. I hope it will be back open very very soon Not only does this topic deserves a thumbs up, but so do you guys
Zanpt	Posted - 2008.10.18 11:36:00 - [7] This is one of the most stupid things I have seen CCP do. I cancelled nine accounts. They will all come back eventually but I will make sure CCP suffers economically in my accounts from this stupid action and lying explanations.
Patric Riegns Lazy Twats Inc	Posted - 2008.10.18 13:38:00 - [8] Edited by: Patric Riegns on 18/10/2008 13:38:06 Has my full support. Also offer money back to anyone who signed up for the power of two promotion and who wish to cancel their accounts in light of the removal of ghost training. This will remove any perception that CCP obtained money through deception and may go some way towards mitigating their terrible customer relations on this issue.
Chani Fedaykin	Posted - 2008.10.18 17:19:00 - [9] ad 1) achieved ad 2) unable to judge, lets see what happens to this thread ad 3-5) still missing ^^ nice to see its on the csm agenda at least
Odetta Harpy	Posted - 2008.10.18 17:51:00 - [10] all the posts about ghost training have been locked or "misplaced" how long is this going to be here.
Raymond Sterns Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I've already put it on the CSM agenda for tomorrow, don't worry, we read locked threads too. I knew I voted for you for a reason. _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.18 19:44:00 - [12] Although having accepted CCP's decision, I still think this was very wrong and shortsighted of them. They have clearly did not tell the truth about the reasons behind the removal of the feature, and attempted on many levels to simply suppress the outcry. If they have admitted that the decision was motivated by business sense, I bet we would still have *****ed, but at least accepted on some level, that it had to be done. Lying to the community, repeatedly, and just blatantly pretending that we are all idiots is what most infuriating about the whole thing. So, if CSM could make CCP issue a public apology for blatant lying, and to give us real reasons behind the cancelation other than "data base issues" and "unfair advantage" I would probably consider that a great success. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.10.18 19:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Brother Welcome Many players are dissatisfied with how CCP has handled the ghost-skilling nerf, and of course with the nerf itself. Dealing with this issue unequivocally comes under the CSM remit to 'represent'. So, reps, please represent us. Please press CCP to 1) Unhide the complaints thread. 2) Stop locking discussion threads on the topic. 3) Respond to customers complaints. 4) Provide supporting detail for information to date that is perceived as disingenuous. 4) Reconsider the feature change in the light of customer desires and expectations. Thank you. -vk Fully supported, lying to the people is bad form, and leaves bad taste in one's mouth.
Karentaki Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.18 22:08:00 - [14] Nice to see the CSM sticking up for the player base Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Hooded Person	Posted - 2008.10.18 22:17:00 - [15] /signed
Kara Rhane Rhane's Research and Development Labs.	Posted - 2008.10.18 22:19:00 - [16] I don't like to be one who shouts profanities and/or emo rages over something that's done. However if some basic questions by the players can be answered I believe it might go a long way towards smoothing this over instead of hoping it will 'go away'. ***** Rhane's Research and Development LabsÖ Click to search our Ammo's, Missiles, and Drone BPO sets.
Avalira Tau Ceti Green Card Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.19 06:07:00 - [17] I support this initiative but I doubt it'll have any impact. Just look at the 30+ 90 day GTC removal a while back; all we asked for was giving up the options even if we paid the new higher price and CCP still ignored it. If you manage to get them to change ghost training it'll renew my faith in the CSM. You do a great job, don't get me wrong, but CCP doesn't seem to listen to the more sensitive issues. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Its been fixed. All in all its one of the more embarrassing mistakes I made, but it made game design laugh. Now lets never speak of this again.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 08:03:00 - [18] Edited by: Malcanis on 19/10/2008 08:03:48 Originally by: Jinx Barker Although having accepted CCP's decision, I still think this was very wrong and shortsighted of them. They have clearly did not tell the truth about the reasons behind the removal of the feature, and attempted on many levels to simply suppress the outcry. If they have admitted that the decision was motivated by business sense, I bet we would still have ****ed, but at least accepted on some level, that it had to be done. Lying to the community, repeatedly, and just blatantly pretending that we are all idiots is what most infuriating about the whole thing. So, if CSM could make CCP issue a public apology for blatant lying, and to give us real reasons behind the cancelation other than "data base issues" and "unfair advantage" I would probably consider that a great success. This. I have no expectation that they will reverse their decision, but it would be nice to get an apology for the way we were treated, and an assurance that the lesson has been learned and the error will not be repeated. CCP: It's your game, shape it how you want. But just don't bullshit* us about it, FFS. The bald, unpleasant truth is a hundred times less provocative than a stupid, obvious lie.
Seriya The Priory	Posted - 2008.10.19 11:20:00 - [19] Assuming we can't get it back, I'd like - "Sorry we lied to you." - "We'll give you a couple of months notice if we ever do anything like this again." - "We'll go and make you a skill training queue now." (For f**k's sake!)
Gallan Dracos	Posted - 2008.10.19 22:47:00 - [20]
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.19 23:47:00 - [21] the funny thing is that we can basically see how useful csm really is on this topic alone. CCP does what CCP wants and doesnt care what the CSM does. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
dorannl Mystery Inc	Posted - 2008.10.20 09:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Jason Edwards the funny thing is that we can basically see how useful csm really is on this topic alone. CCP does what CCP wants and doesnt care what the CSM does. They can do what ever they want with this game they own it but. If you create the CSM for beter communication with the player base and then dont use that tool for this kind of things it becomes a lie Whe can argue about ghost training but its there call. But the communication style lieng and cheating that is what should be stoped by the CSM
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.10.20 09:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Jason Edwards the funny thing is that we can basically see how useful csm really is on this topic alone. CCP does what CCP wants and doesnt care what the CSM does. Wait, what? What kind of logic is this? The CSM hasn't had a chance to get together for a meeting yet, in order to discuss ghost training. Yet, you deduce because CCP hasn't changed their mind, that the CSM is useless? Wow, awesome logic. Seriously
Laughlyn Vaughns Gallente Lagos-Vaughn Industries	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:18:00 - [24] I was thinking about the way i used to Ghost train, i have a main (this one) who i have subscribing almost continually for the entire of the chars life (just oevr 4 yrs) and i have an alt who i sub when i can afford it. Now what i always did was sub for a month, train in a specific fiel duntil lv5, get in a few small sills and then set a lv5 going and cancel the sub. Yes am sure alot of peopel did this but, with having that Lv5 skill trainign it always gave me sumthing to come back to at the end of (max 38days so far) now tho, i cant afford to continually sub the char and with the skill not training i have nothing to make me sub again after a month or so. So what happens is, i had a contnual main and then i semi subbed a char for 6 months of the year. now tho i may only sub it in a coupel months time when i find a reason to or maybe even just sell/delete the char all together so CCP have gone from having 100% sub and a 50% sub to just a 100% sub and maybe a 10-25% sub, losing ú135 from me (losing 9 months subs) if that happens with 500 people then the costs soon start to mount up (ú67,500) maybe allow us to have a certain cut rate price for an alt (account linking) yeah liek power of 2 but maybe summat continually so CCP still get more cash and those that used to be as fair as possibly can with ghost trainign can afford to run an alt too.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:15:00 - [25] Training an account that you don't pay for is cheating imo. I'm glad CCP removed this way for you to gain an unfair advantage over people who actually pay for all their accounts. Imo CSM should congratulate CCP for taking this action and ask why they didn't do it sooner. -- The future is Black. Brace for Impact!
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Jason Edwards the funny thing is that we can basically see how useful csm really is on this topic alone. CCP does what CCP wants and doesnt care what the CSM does. Actually, I think that what will happen when CSM delivers its questions to CCP would really decide for me, and should for you, what CSM is all about. Until CSM actually does something we can't say whether they were effective, or were ignored. The only gripe I have with CSM is that with the exception of couple of members CSM has been very quiet on their interactions with CCP, whether as some say due to NDA, or other issues, the appearance is there that the were/are ineffectual. This is what should change with next CSM, I hope. As far as the issue reflected in this thread: CSM SHOULD MAKE A JOINT STATEMENT - ALL MEMBERS TOGETHER - AS TO WHAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED WITH CCP. Unless, of course, CCP invokes the NDA thing again, or vetoes the discussion outright. Till then, they should have a benefit of the doubt. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Dhunter Dkiller Delta Force Corp. CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.10.20 21:36:00 - [27]
Grakkus IX Minmatar Killer Angels	Posted - 2008.10.20 22:10:00 - [28] I have two accounts, one for mining and one for combat skilling. I have been able to maintain both by buying time codes with mining ISK, and it had been working fine. Now, time code prices have climbed past the 1/2 Billion mark, and continue to rise, and my plan was to ghost train one account for 20 days to catch up, but obviously now that's not an option. What is left as an option is to combine my mains into one account and try to maintain. Eve is becoming more like a job than a diversion. Not fun. No RL, just AFK
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:11:00 - [29] I find the ghost training change to be perfectly acceptable, but agree that it was managed poorly by CCP. They were justified in making the change, but it would have been a far better to give a reasonable amount of warning so that those who had been playing by long-held CCP policies were given a chance to adapt. And if it's true they suppressed reasonable debate on the matter, they were wrong to do so. Not sure what GTC prices have to do with anything, since GTC prices are player-driven. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Squirrrel Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:44:00 - [30] Sure. Let the CSMs run with it. Might drive home to more people exactly how CCP don't really care and the CSM is just a PR Tool.
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.21 21:53:00 - [31] Since I'm a honest decent PAYING customer I say to HELL with the ghost training There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.22 01:14:00 - [32] Originally by: Thargat Since I'm a honest decent PAYING customer I say to HELL with the ghost training Does that mean that all those who set the long skill - while it was possible - and then went on deployment, lost their job, went on vacation, (insert whatever reason here), are dishonest? Or are you just playing at agent provocateur? ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
DJ Geist	Posted - 2008.10.22 04:40:00 - [33] support
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:46:00 - [34] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Thargat Since I'm a honest decent PAYING customer I say to HELL with the ghost training Does that mean that all those who set the long skill - while it was possible - and then went on deployment, lost their job, went on vacation, (insert whatever reason here), are dishonest? Or are you just playing at agent provocateur? That's you putting a spin on my words, the key word here is "paying". And it doesn't have jack to do with people using the feature/bug unintentionally. It's the ones stringing up character training time with inactive accounts that I despise. They don't contribute in-game since they're not online, they're just a waste of database as far as I'm concerned. There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
tartan pixie Pixie Cats	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:01:00 - [35] Originally by: Thargat Since I'm a honest decent PAYING customer I say to HELL with the ghost training I'm pretty sure that most people who ghost skill have more than one account and also buy the shorter subs which cost more and are therefore among the highest paying group of players. The object of the exercise is to net CCP as much cash as possible to get them through the credit crunch and i fail to see how enraging players and destroying the incentive to open extra accounts will help. The most hurtful thing is the lies though - CSM's please stop towing the party line on this and give us some truth. ------------------------------------------------ No your honour my defence is that the pixies did it in the middle of the night. Prove me wrong.
Velda Chulai	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:03:00 - [36] Originally by: Thargat Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Thargat Since I'm a honest decent PAYING customer I say to HELL with the ghost training Does that mean that all those who set the long skill - while it was possible - and then went on deployment, lost their job, went on vacation, (insert whatever reason here), are dishonest? Or are you just playing at agent provocateur? That's you putting a spin on my words, the key word here is "paying". And it doesn't have jack to do with people using the feature/bug unintentionally. It's the ones stringing up character training time with inactive accounts that I despise. They don't contribute in-game since they're not online, they're just a waste of database as far as I'm concerned. We were all honest, decent paying customers. The difference is that we applied the mechanics in a way which coincided with the policies when we allowed our accounts to lapse - Mechanics which were previously in the player guide, and provided us incentive to return every so often.
Aastarius Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:17:00 - [37] No - no pay, no play seems fairly straightforward concept to me. Those that used this in the past should be thankful it was there, consider themselves fortunate and get on with it.
eliminator2 Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.10.22 16:11:00 - [38] it doesnt surprise me ccp did that with lockin threahds in the CSM forum that may threaghten ccp tbh if it was up to me id fire the ccp that locked it for the simple fact THIS IS CSM FORUM PART ONLY SO **** OF CCP!!! onli read dnt friggin remov anythin/lock
Efrim Black	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Velda Chulai Originally by: Thargat Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Thargat Since I'm a honest decent PAYING customer I say to HELL with the ghost training Does that mean that all those who set the long skill - while it was possible - and then went on deployment, lost their job, went on vacation, (insert whatever reason here), are dishonest? Or are you just playing at agent provocateur? That's you putting a spin on my words, the key word here is "paying". And it doesn't have jack to do with people using the feature/bug unintentionally. It's the ones stringing up character training time with inactive accounts that I despise. They don't contribute in-game since they're not online, they're just a waste of database as far as I'm concerned. We were all honest, decent paying customers. The difference is that we applied the mechanics in a way which coincided with the policies when we allowed our accounts to lapse - Mechanics which were previously in the player guide, and provided us incentive to return every so often. They were not intended mechanics. This was a bug which was being exploited by a tiny fraction of the population of eve. 4.6% originally if I read correctly, however this began to get out of control, they took notice and fixed the bug. It's a bug, no rights are being infringed, the cheat you were exploiting has been fixed. Learn to adapt. Why this keeps popping up in assembly hall mystifies me.
yani dumyat	Posted - 2008.10.22 19:18:00 - [40] Ankh, I'm not getting at you here (i voted for you and will again if you run), this is about the position any communicator between CCP and the customers must be in. This thread: Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I've already put it on the CSM agenda for tomorrow, don't worry, we read locked threads too. csm meeting thread: Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Don't forget to add my issues to the list: .......... Skill Queue and 30 Day GTC now that Ghost Training is gone The CCCP politburo must be holding the reigns very tight to make CCP wrangler, the CSM's and every employee of CCP lie through their teeth, just what kind of stick are these people holding over you that you feel compelled to lie for them? Originally by: Jade Constantine Okay meeting 11 is delayed again: ...... We waited 1 hour for a 7th Delegate/Alternate. Darius Johnson Arrived at 16:00 to make it 7 but since Omber had to leave in 30mins we concluded that the meeting wasn't going to work in the 30min slot. It is often observed that a committee is the best way to solve a problem because people use all their energy organizing and ranting which leaves the real power brokers free to do as they please. Then when the cod hits the propeller the committee has to take all the flak and i can't help feeling that this is where the CSM's are right now. What's so magic about the number 7? Stop tying yourself up in democratic knots, I can't believe that a group of people with decent iq and computer skills can still be relying on everybody turning up at a specific time and virtual place irrespective of RL commitments. A private forum, weekly vote and nominated spokesperson could be a basic suggestion though i suspect you folks have more experience than me in these things so ...why...err...the above quote??? The stupid thing is that CCP are presumably trying to act in the best long term interests of EVE and they have one of the best customer communication tools ever in the CSM council yet they are using it like an armour repper instead of a tech III information launcher. Please please please can the csm council sort themselves out, you are not paid by CCP so do not have to tow the party line so please have no fear in confronting the bull****. I suspect that behind the ghost training decision lies some clever business decision like homogenizing the euro/usa server with the china one, attracting RL retailers into the stations with ambulation or adding some sims style element to attract more female players but without strong CSM's who can bypass CCP's godawful PR the CCP honchos will keep shooting their feet to the detriment of all of us who love this game. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> If in doubt then all is good If not in doubt then ask yourself harder questions
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.22 21:43:00 - [41] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 22/10/2008 21:45:32 Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 22/10/2008 21:44:48 There's already an issue for this and I've already raised it for discussion at the next meeting. Ankh's proposal appears to suggest the need for a skill queue which I am not sure should be bundled and I don't believe I can support as I don't believe the two to be related and skill queue's have already been discussed. Should ankh unbundle that I'll be happy to remove the need to discuss the similar proposal I've added. I do however support rolling back the ghost training removal. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.23 02:15:00 - [42] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 23/10/2008 02:14:59 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON There's already an issue for this and I've already raised it for discussion at the next meeting. Ankh's proposal appears to suggest the need for a skill queue which I am not sure should be bundled and I don't believe I can support as I don't believe the two to be related and skill queue's have already been discussed. Should ankh unbundle that I'll be happy to remove the need to discuss the similar proposal I've added. I do however support rolling back the ghost training removal. Christ, Darius, you are breaking all sorts of preconceptions for me lately man. Stop scaring me, and do something evil, and sinister, otherwise I just might have to vote for you, damn it! ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.10.23 02:56:00 - [43] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Thargat Since I'm a honest decent PAYING customer I say to HELL with the ghost training Does that mean that all those who set the long skill - while it was possible - and then went on deployment, lost their job, went on vacation, (insert whatever reason here), are dishonest? Or are you just playing at agent provocateur? Nobody said the skill couldn't train as long as the account was paid. Vacations and deployments are the subject of "we need a skill cache now." Ghost training was never necessary for extended afk sessions. It was a necessity of I-don't-pay-for-my-SP players. Vacation and deployments shouldn't and won't kill accounts that are set up to be paid/have enough GTC's. Losing your job...quit Eve and get a life

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