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Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.18 14:15:00 - [1] I've been on SiSi messing with these today just to have a look at what's on offer, and how they work within the game. I have to say, they're very well implemented and look as if they're going to be very useful for RP based corps, and those that have a solid structure and heirarchy. However there is one problem with them, the price. Creating a decoration costs 25 million ISK, and awarding it costs 1 million. I have no issue with the cost for awarding the decoration to a member, it seems fairly rounded, however the price of creating a decoration is astronomical for small RP based corporations or those that are just starting out. The price doesn't particularly bother me personally, but for smaller corporation that don't have large finanicial backing who want to reward their members and see their memberbase grow, this will work out to be a big issue. I was expecting there to be a charge for decorations and their award to members, but giving them this high a cost is insane. Would anyone from CCP be able to shed some light onto the high cost, other than them being a massive ISK sink? \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Mike Vandenberg	Posted - 2008.10.18 14:27:00 - [2] The price is high, but that not necessarily needs to be a problem. This will reduce the decoration inflation, and corporations might want to make sure that decorations truly make sense and will be awarded only when truly earned. The problems I had was with the creation of decorations: -> You cannot undo selections and would have to start all over if you just want to skip something you have selected already. An undo button per step would be nice. -> You can only select at the certain levels of medal creation step by step, it is not possible to jump between selected options. That makes medal creation very time consuming and awkward. Some kind of offline medal creator would be good, which could utilize more space to present options and could be used for planning of a complete medal system. There is alot of free space on the top right of the character info gump. Enough space to just put ribbons up with mouse over information or something like this for awarded medals. Mike
Antaiir Gallente Eat My Shorts Inc. Freelancer Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:29:00 - [3] I like the idea behind the decorations... The selfcreated decorations should be able to be edited and/or deleted in the creation screen. That would be nice :) Anta
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Mike Vandenberg -> You cannot undo selections and would have to start all over if you just want to skip something you have selected already. An undo button per step would be nice. -> You can only select at the certain levels of medal creation step by step, it is not possible to jump between selected options. That makes medal creation very time consuming and awkward. I disagree with your reasoning on the price, but this I can't agree more on. It's quite fiddly to get the medals looking right, and it's a pile of arse when you mess something up and have no way of undoing it other than starting from scratch. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.10.18 21:45:00 - [5] Personally I think the medal costs should be the opposite - i.e cheap to 'make' (so a corp can create a medal system / reward system) but expensive to award - meaning they have more intrinsic value to the player e.g "Hey I got a medal, oh its only a mil isk and everyone in the corp got one" VS "Hey I got a medal - whoa 25mil just on little ol me! :D2 C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.19 01:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Cailais Personally I think the medal costs should be the opposite - i.e cheap to 'make' (so a corp can create a medal system / reward system) but expensive to award - meaning they have more intrinsic value to the player e.g "Hey I got a medal, oh its only a mil isk and everyone in the corp got one" VS "Hey I got a medal - whoa 25mil just on little ol me! :D2 C. completely agree there, would make much more sense. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.10.19 02:00:00 - [7] Something else, for an added cost of awarding the medal I would like to be able to award medals to people not in my corporation. There are plenty of times when Corp A receives help from Corp B and someone in Corp B distinguishes themselves in helping Corp A. Why can't Corp A reward the member of Corp B a Corp A medal? Founder Heiian Society
Jameroz Echoes of Space	Posted - 2008.10.19 03:13:00 - [8] High creation cost keeps the amount of unique medals down. But I kinda agree with Verone that the cost seems to be just way too high for smaller corporations. I think 5-10m would seem more reasonable price. Think about 20 player corporations and how much the creation fee will end up costing per medal awarded. As for the fee to award them, I think it definately shouldn't be any higher. I'm pretty happy with 1mil.
Avalira Caldari Tau Ceti Green Card Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.19 04:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Cailais Personally I think the medal costs should be the opposite - i.e cheap to 'make' (so a corp can create a medal system / reward system) but expensive to award - meaning they have more intrinsic value to the player This makes much more sense! I hope CCP changes it before it's too late, although they'll have to change the prices as there is still the problem that Verone mentioned: small corps cannot afford having more than a couple of medals... which is why I think CCP opted for the current method (125M + 101M < 11M + 1025M). Unless they change the price per medal it's best to keep it as it is. Personally I'm thinking of around 10M to create one and 5M to give to a person. For small corps that is affordable while still giving value to a medal. Perhaps prices can also be scaled? Some examples of possible scaling (one or more of the following): - each option increases the price by x mil - each additional medal created costs more to create - each additional medal a player gets costs more to give Originally by: CCP Tuxford Its been fixed. All in all its one of the more embarrassing mistakes I made, but it made game design laugh. Now lets never speak of this again.
Mike Vandenberg	Posted - 2008.10.19 09:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Cailais Personally I think the medal costs should be the opposite - i.e cheap to 'make' (so a corp can create a medal system / reward system) but expensive to award - meaning they have more intrinsic value to the player e.g "Hey I got a medal, oh its only a mil isk and everyone in the corp got one" VS "Hey I got a medal - whoa 25mil just on little ol me! :D2 Agree, that would make more sense. Mike


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2008.10.19 12:44:00 - [11] You certainly raise very valid points as I mentioned in the live dev blog and we are not opposed to changing the numbers in ways you suggest as the suggestions do make sense have merit. I am not going to throw new numbers around today, but I think we can look at lowering the creation price and increasing the award price.

Mike Vandenberg	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:24:00 - [12] Chronotis, any comment on the, ahmmm, inefficient decoration design GUI? Mike
Mikal Drey Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Mike Vandenberg Chronotis, any comment on the, ahmmm, inefficient decoration design GUI? Mike and the visual bugs with medals :/ >> the medal doesnt seem attatched to the ribon and appears to float >> the medal colouring for the matari style medal doesnt match the ribon and looks awfull when using both >> there is no left orientated sword only right >> once you choose the icons and the new one apears there is no blank/transparent so you need to mirror a previous choice
Mike Vandenberg	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:31:00 - [14] Originally by: Mikal Drey >> once you choose the icons and the new one apears there is no blank/transparent so you need to mirror a previous choice ... what is quite tedious, when you have to click 20 times or so to go back to the previous choice ... Mike
Elefant Skunkwerx Manufacturing deadspace society	Posted - 2008.10.19 16:22:00 - [15] Do you think that the corp should get an Eve mail as well as the player who is decorated? It allows the corp to know that someone is being honoured. E
Elefant Skunkwerx Manufacturing deadspace society	Posted - 2008.10.19 16:24:00 - [16] Also if you award a decoration, when you go into the info the number of the times awarded is not updated. Originally by: Mike Vandenberg Originally by: Mikal Drey >> once you choose the icons and the new one apears there is no blank/transparent so you need to mirror a previous choice ... what is quite tedious, when you have to click 20 times or so to go back to the previous choice ... Mike
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.19 17:40:00 - [17] Originally by: CCP Chronotis You certainly raise very valid points as I mentioned in the live dev blog and we are not opposed to changing the numbers in ways you suggest. I am not going to throw new numbers around today, but I think we can look at lowering the creation price and increasing the award price. Awesome, thank you for the response. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.19 18:23:00 - [18] I like the idea of decorations and can already see the abuse that will come. I know PIE has used decorations and ribbons for years (they're on our sigs) and they've always meant something. It would be nice to be able to customize the ribbon on the medals to match the ones we have now. Current PIE Inc. Medals and Ribbons Something matching what we have already would really be neat. Another nice thing would be a way to make the ribbons/medals "unique" so you're corp is the only one with a particular design. Or perhaps to "rank" then so a medal that is say a "medal of honor" would cost alot more to award then a simple medal for something more common. The only downside I see to the whole thing is all the third world style dictators we'll see with 100 medals and whatnot adorning their uniforms in ambulation! Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
isAzmodeus Low Security Military Excursions	Posted - 2008.10.19 18:51:00 - [19] I'd suggest the creation fee be lowered, and that instead of a set fee for awarding the medal, allow the corp to set the fee when the medal is created. The cost would be listed in a seperate field of the medal description. That way, it allows for a wide variety of medals across different "tiers", and other corps can see exactly how much a medal was valued by the creating corp. --------------------------------- The Seven- Blowing up someone near you.
Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.10.19 18:53:00 - [20] Edited by: Vengal Seyhan on 19/10/2008 18:54:10 Originally by: Archbishop Edited by: Archbishop on 19/10/2008 18:28:15 I like the idea of decorations. I know PIE has used decorations and ribbons for years (they're on our sigs) and they've always meant something. It would be nice to be able to customize the ribbon on the medals to match the ones we have now. PIE Inc. Medals and Ribbons. Something similar to what we have already would really be neat. Another nice thing would be a way to make the ribbons/medals "unique" so you're corp is the only one with a particular design. Or perhaps to "rank" then so a medal that is say a "medal of honor" would cost alot more to award then a simple medal for something more common. The only downside I see to the whole thing is all the third world style dictators we'll see with 100 medals and whatnot adorning their uniforms in ambulation! Archbishop I am extremely impressed with the level of care and attention your corp has put into these over the years, and I really hope that you get a good result out of the forthcoming expansion. ...I've got a second account; A newish Amarr character. I may just have to join up with you guys as a righteous crusader of the faith.

Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.10.19 19:26:00 - [21] Edited by: Vengal Seyhan on 19/10/2008 19:27:54 Originally by: CCP Chronotis You certainly raise very valid points as I mentioned in the live dev blog and we are not opposed to changing the numbers in ways you suggest. I am not going to throw new numbers around today, but I think we can look at lowering the creation price and increasing the award price. How difficult would it be to increment the price of decorations so that the first medal defined by a corp is cheap, but increases (linearly? exponentially?) for additional medal types defined. The price to award a medal should ideally also be variable. Perhaps via similar logic - medals that are cheap to define are cheap to award? Variability would be good. Some people are going to want medals worth 100M to award, simply because it's conspicuous consumption.... Also : Can a corp officer raise a sanctionable action to revoke a medal? (For conduct unbecoming; treachery, theft, leaving the corp, etc).
Rhohan Minmatar It's A Trap	Posted - 2008.10.20 05:41:00 - [22] Decorations should mean something. You shouldn't have Noob Chars being able to walk around with full "Fruit Salads". Maybe break it down to how the real Military does it. Awards and Medals, and maybe some other types. Awards are cheap and are only Ribbons, for things such as Campains. Medals are expensive, for individual Decorations, such as most kills during a Campain or the greatest save. Maybe even have multiple levels of Medals, some a lot more expensive than others. Such as Valor "V" attachemts, and some others. Just some ideas.
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.20 06:53:00 - [23] Awarding a medal should mean something. Making a medal should be easy. Ribbons should be easy to make/obtain for both rewarder and rewardee. Medals mean something much more important and should mean something. I support the basic consensus that making a medal shouldnt cost the corp that much, but AWARDING the medal should mean something. Its a medal for cripes! A large, fancy medal should cost 100mil (pulling numbers out of my ass, I know, but gives you the idea), and should only be rewarded when corp/alliance members go above and beyond the call of duty. Smaller medals could cost 25-50mil depending upon service. Having a large isk cost tied to medal awarding means that whoever gets awarded the medal feels proud to have been awarded such a sum in the form of a medal. -
Scimon Tinker	Posted - 2008.10.20 10:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Archbishop Edited by: Archbishop on 19/10/2008 18:28:15 I like the idea of decorations. I know PIE has used decorations and ribbons for years (they're on our sigs) and they've always meant something. It would be nice to be able to customize the ribbon on the medals to match the ones we have now. PIE Inc. Medals and Ribbons. Something similar to what we have already would really be neat. Another nice thing would be a way to make the ribbons/medals "unique" so you're corp is the only one with a particular design. Or perhaps to "rank" then so a medal that is say a "medal of honor" would cost alot more to award then a simple medal for something more common. The only downside I see to the whole thing is all the third world style dictators we'll see with 100 medals and whatnot adorning their uniforms in ambulation! Archbishop the SISI medals are awfull and very very generic. alliance logos have been player designed and were eventually imported to the database. poke CCP about this and maybe even a goon style threadnaught by the amarrian hoodie brigade. i do see that this is a first round draft of the system and have no doubts that CCP would seriously consider implementing player created ones. Posted with my alt cause my main hates the amarr
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Scimon Tinker Originally by: Archbishop Edited by: Archbishop on 19/10/2008 18:28:15 I like the idea of decorations. I know PIE has used decorations and ribbons for years (they're on our sigs) and they've always meant something. It would be nice to be able to customize the ribbon on the medals to match the ones we have now. PIE Inc. Medals and Ribbons. Something similar to what we have already would really be neat. Another nice thing would be a way to make the ribbons/medals "unique" so you're corp is the only one with a particular design. Or perhaps to "rank" then so a medal that is say a "medal of honor" would cost alot more to award then a simple medal for something more common. The only downside I see to the whole thing is all the third world style dictators we'll see with 100 medals and whatnot adorning their uniforms in ambulation! Archbishop the SISI medals are awfull and very very generic. alliance logos have been player designed and were eventually imported to the database. poke CCP about this and maybe even a goon style threadnaught by the amarrian hoodie brigade. i do see that this is a first round draft of the system and have no doubts that CCP would seriously consider implementing player created ones. Posted with my alt cause my main hates the amarr Moar variation would be nice, but I'm against letting the medals be designed completely by players because of the random crap that would be submitted. I would however like to see some piracy themed parts to the medals... skulls and crossbones and the like. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Unfunny Alt Anonymous Forumposters	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:03:00 - [26] Edited by: Unfunny Alt on 21/10/2008 14:03:50 I like the idea that the cost varies depending on what options you choose when creating the medal. So realtivly plain round medals with just one decoration would be cheaper than some big star thingy with whistles and bells and holographic shifting images. Add a feature where the creator can specify an even higher cost (higher than specified by the options chosen) for awarding it to a pilot would also create a corp intern ranking of medals. You could even implement medal ranks. As in those costing only 1 million to award would be rank 1, those costing more than 1 billion to award would be rank 9. Player made medals (alliance logo style) would be nice, but the creation cost would have to be enormous to cull out unwanted designs. Poster and Hauling Alt of Policy Handicapped Main
Mikal Drey Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 15:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Verone Moar variation would be nice, but I'm against letting the medals be designed completely by players because of the random crap that would be submitted. I would however like to see some piracy themed parts to the medals... skulls and crossbones and the like. Doesnt that really depend on the point of view ? I think whoever designed the pie inc medals did a really good job but im sure some would say different. I also think that some alliance logos are really fubar but some awesome. personally i think skill and crossbones are a bit ghey and epeenish but i understand where you going with it:) adding more variety is certainly a step in the right direction. remember when corp logos had have the ammount of creativity as they do now ? atm the decorations interface and options are a bit shite but its a nice addition albeit an isk sink and little development towards gameplay. Meh the RP'ers will get hard for it cough pie cough
isAzmodeus Low Security Military Excursions	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Rhohan Decorations should mean something. You shouldn't have Noob Chars being able to walk around with full "Fruit Salads". Maybe break it down to how the real Military does it. Awards and Medals, and maybe some other types. Awards are cheap and are only Ribbons, for things such as Campains. Medals are expensive, for individual Decorations, such as most kills during a Campain or the greatest save. Maybe even have multiple levels of Medals, some a lot more expensive than others. Such as Valor "V" attachemts, and some others. Just some ideas. I strongly support the idea of ribbons and medals, and with different tiers of costs depending on the medal design. For example, a corporation may want to create a simple "Campaign" ribbon to award all veterans of a war. This would not be a high-cost ribbon to design (25m) or award (1m each), but would have some meaning for everyone involved. In that campaign, they may award a Tier 1 "Bronze Medal of Valor" to 25 pilots that showed great tactical thinking etc... This would be a simple medal (not just a ribbon), and would have a higher cost to award (20m each). They may also have people who get a tier 2 "Silver Medal of Valor" (50m to award), or a tier 3 "Medal of Honor" (250m to award). By having different tiers of medals/ribbons with associated costs and ornamentation, it allows a much more robust medal system and gives corporation more tools to differentiate their awards. --------------------------------- The Seven- Blowing up someone near you.
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:53:00 - [29] From Chatsubo discussion regarding medals. Originally by: me Nicole Eisenfaust wrote: What we could do with the medals, however, which might be kind of cool - set up a Caldari capsuleer award commitee and try and convince other Caldari corps to help think up a few awards that we can consider 'state awards'. Yes, its likely not much help to us since we're not a front line unit, but it'd still be fun to try and establish something we can all have in common. I am quoting Nicole from my corps internal forums because I think this gets right to the point. However I think it would be a good place for the RP community to step up and 'create order' amongst the chaos of all these corps handing out medals like they are candy. Verone mentioned in the Game Development forum that these are going to be excellent for RP and I agree. We have the opportunity to assign actual value to these medals. For a non-Caldari State example, lets look at PIE, CVA, VV, etc. If they agreed upon macro Empire Medals, medals that are intended to be from the Empire not just their corporation. I am not sure if I am describing what I am thinking entirely right. But it would require 'prominent' members of the various factions to get together and create a list of medal worthy activities on a faction/empire level (fx Veto & the Black Rabbits for the Guristas) and the design for the medal. Now this wouldn't stop internal medals from being presented, but those taking part in the faction level medal system would be asked to not create medals that match those in the faction medal database. Or if a large number of corporations participate in an event/common campaign etc, then they all have the same medal. It needs refinement; thoughts? Originally by: me The biggest hurdle at the moment is that it is not possible to award medals outside of your own corporation (maybe alliance, not sure there; not part of one and I doubt you can do it within a faction). However if it was possible to award medals to pilots (or organizations) outside of your own this would help to solve the problem a bit. It would allow as an example; LDIS to sponsor a medal for a campaign to defend the Kinakka and Villasen constellations (Black Rise where LD/LDPS has the majority of its presence) and award it to those who took part in the campaign. Another organization (who at this point would take on the leadership role for it) might sponsor an offensive campaign ribbon. In essence, being able to give medals to those outside the organization would allow for corporations to recognize their allies and friends who helped them in whatever endeavor they undertake. However that capability does not exist at the moment. Originally by: Mithfindel At the moment the medals are corp-only. Doesn't work for allies, though apparently CCP's investigating it. (Would be nice if the faction militia would be considered an alliance in this matter, perhaps post about this in the Features & Ideas forum in the EVE-O boards?) So list of things that would be nice to do with medals: - award them to others in the same faction as you; allows the "militias" to get more of a united feel to them and encourages the development of internal corporations to be able to award medals. or - award medals to those outside your own corporation period. Also it may be useful to be able to award a medal in bulk to a corporation. Organizations like PIE that fight a particular campaign could click on award PIE Inc the "Reclaiming Medal" and not have to go through individually and do it. Founder Heiian Society
DrDevice The Priory	Posted - 2008.10.22 20:32:00 - [30] I hope there will be some scope for more negative medals. while we love to celebrate success, we also love to ridicule failure :) I suspect the 'The Golden Cabbage' award will have some usage :)



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