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Gobi Mettle	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:58:00 - [1] I've been thinking that I really dislike infinite lives that EVE give us capusleers. Death has no meaning because death never really happens, only material loss. I've been wondering if it's feasible to play in a way where death has a meaning if only to me. I see 2 possible play styles 1) Never buy a clone, if someone pods me, I lose all skill points. Pros: Remain part of the corp, with basic skills to restart training from Cons: Keep money and items, and I'm not sure I want to have to trash every item I might have accaquired since my last death. 2) Reroll a new character after every death, lose all skills, items, isk. Pros: Proper death Cons: Pain getting the character setup again (stats, naming, corp memberships etc) But I have some questions! 1) If I have an alpha clone which everyone gets for free anyway (so I can't help having that clone), and I die with more skill points than an alpha can protect, do I lose all skill points over that alpha skill point limit or is it chance based? and how does eve decide which skills to deduct points from? is it spread evenly across all trained skills ? is it weighted against higher level skills? or is it based on the training order? 2) are there any corps already doing in this? I can't image that there will be since any corp who uses meaningful death (tm -gobi mettle 2008) pilots is going to be at a huge disadvantage, imagine getting wardec'd by a corp, you meet them in battle and kill a few of their pilots and they kill a few of yours but when your pilots come out a second time, they are in frigates and the other corps pilots are still in what ever it was they flew last time. It might be that meaningful death pilots have no place in a character corps for precisely this reason. 3) Suggestions for a character (assuming I go with the never buy a clone approach) , I guess I'm looking at a character that can learn those early skills quickly but can generalize out to do almost anything, is one particular race very good at generlization? Should I be evening out the characters attributes as much as possible or should some attributes alway be slightly higher. Any comments/suggestion welcomed.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:01:00 - [2] It sounds like you're meaninglessly making death more painful than it needs to be... - Infectious -
RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:01:00 - [3] Then Carebears would NEVER leave highsec, blobs would be the norm and.... Forget it, will never happen. Think of the tears
Gobi Mettle	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Rawr Cristina It sounds like you're meaninglessly making death more painful than it needs to be... Isn't that sort of the point, death should be painful, death should be the end, or at least a new beginning.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:12:00 - [5] Sounds fine, if you never pvp or even undock. otherwise. BLARGH! no thankyou Unlike most games, training to fly something takes a long long time (depending) so i wdo like the ideas at all.. And forgive me if you think i am being rude.. but good day to you sir! i said GOOD DAY!
Gobi Mettle	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:13:00 - [6] Originally by: RedSplat Then Carebears would NEVER leave highsec, blobs would be the norm and.... Forget it, will never happen. Think of the tears I'm not suggesting this as idea for everyone to do (or be forced into by CCP). I just thought it would making running gate camps a little more interesting for me.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:14:00 - [7] it can be painful what about the nano *s who lose their billion + snake set, plus 300million isk vagas w/ polycarb rigs? or about the huge armor tanker that buys billions worth of slave implants? lol you have to think but whatever, if you want to lose skillpoints wihlst getting popped, be my guest . . . Originally by:** soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Lustralis	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Gobi Mettle Originally by: Rawr Cristina It sounds like you're meaninglessly making death more painful than it needs to be... Isn't that sort of the point, death should be painful, death should be the end, or at least a new beginning. You have to remember that it's a game, so it doesn't need to be "realistic" in that respect. Also consider that what keeps people playing is often the time they've invested in their character. If you effectively wipe that every time they get popped, they won't be quite so motivated to continue playing, especially if they have to do the skill grind all over again.
Gautan Virdamot Nebula Rasa Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:26:00 - [9] Or you could implement a way for underhanded people to steal your DNA from the corpses you leave about to duplicate your appearance and infiltrate NPC corporations to begin with. It would put a damper on the willing selfpodding and would no doubt create corpse retrieval teams during battle.
Thea Arsoniztik Red Tides Viewer Discretion Advised	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:27:00 - [10] So...uhhh... When you die, can I have your stuff from your past life??
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:42:00 - [11] Edited by: Tippia on 20/10/2008 13:43:19 Originally by: Lustralis You have to remember that it's a game, so it doesn't need to be "realistic" in that respect. Also consider that what keeps people playing is often the time they've invested in their character. If you effectively wipe that every time they get popped, they won't be quite so motivated to continue playing, especially if they have to do the skill grind all over again. Sounds more likely that the game would just dissolve into space-UT: do a minimum of training, and/or just enough to fit within the free clone, and then go out and shoot stuff again. End result is that death becomes even less meaningful than it is right now, as it onle becomes a fast cycle of respawn, gather guns, shoot, death, respawn...
Gautan Virdamot Nebula Rasa Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Thea Arsoniztik So...uhhh... When you die, can I have your stuff from your past life?? Leach standings and possibly sabotage it if good enough an imposter.
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:36:00 - [13] op is a fool --------- I JUST FOUND THE GAME!
Gieron Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:39:00 - [14] Question 1: No, you only loose 5% of the difference between your skill points and the skill points the clone can hold. For example; you have 1,800,000 SP, the clone can hold 800,000 SP, you loose 50,000 SP. But I think you are missing a third option: When you die you can't play the game anymore. You have to find a new game to play, until you die there.
Rumless	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:41:00 - [15] indeed you are making the death so much more painful :;P
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:42:00 - [16] Death is painful. If you dont have the proper insurance you lose money on your ship. If your podded and have expensive implants, you lose ALOT of money. Even if you have prem insurance and an up to date clone you still lose isk. Keep in mind this is a game and its counter productive for the developers to make the game so hard that once you die you just cancel your subscription. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Jordon Spikes	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:46:00 - [17] Death = material losses in virtural world and in real life.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:03:00 - [18] I know where ur coming from, but I wouldn't actually do it. Maybe you will enjoy it. I've lost 10 days of training before and it hurt a lot more than you'd think. I farted around with excel for a minute using the formula given by the other dude... assuming: Starting SP: 25m Clone: 900,000 After the first death you lose 1.2m SP. The 2nd costs you 1.14m... by the time you've died 19 times you are down to 10m, and finally to get back to 1m SP you would have to die 110 times! So it's not as drastic as people might think. To put it another way, if you train at 2200SP/hour (which is easily done), then you can afford to die once every 500 hours and you will never lose anything :) I can't believe it's 2am and I'm missing out on sleep doing this. What a loser.
Voicelessly	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:08:00 - [19] the law of unintended consequences: this would lead to people doing trial account BS pilots filled with smartbombs and suicide griefing war targets gee, that sounds like fun. in order to make the game playable they'd have to make skilling go much quicker, which would then make the game counterstrike in space. great idea op.
Sol Halcon Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:18:00 - [20] EVE actually does have a perma-death of sorts. Just forget to upgrade your clone once. I've never seen it happen personally. Although, I do know, when I discovered that I had forgotten to upgrade a mine couple weeks ago, and had went out on 2 fleets, I'm pretty sure my heart skipped a beat. That was a lesson learned. Seriously though, EVE really does have that harshest death penalties in the gaming world. You look at the forums in other games when that subject is discussed. EVE is always brought up, and is always set as a benchmark of "we really don't want to go that far". EVE is a high stakes game, and requires thought. I guess that's what keeps me in it. Cheers! ~Sol
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:18:00 - [21] Sounds to me like you've missed the point of hypothesis vs. reality. What you're describing sounds good and all, but in reality it'll just be a frustration because there are so many easy ways to kill you. If you have to reroll, say twice per day - then your concept will just be a grind that will lead you to quit playing.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Sol Halcon EVE actually does have a perma-death of sorts. Just forget to upgrade your clone once. I've never seen it happen personally. Although, I do know, when I discovered that I had forgotten to upgrade a mine couple weeks ago, and had went out on 2 fleets, I'm pretty sure my heart skipped a beat. That was a lesson learned. Seriously though, EVE really does have that harshest death penalties in the gaming world. You look at the forums in other games when that subject is discussed. EVE is always brought up, and is always set as a benchmark of "we really don't want to go that far". EVE is a high stakes game, and requires thought. I guess that's what keeps me in it. Cheers! ~Sol If you had read the thread, you would know that forgetting to update your clone once, and then getting podded, will only lose you 5% of the difference in SP between your level and the default clone...
Gobi Mettle	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:17:00 - [23] Edited by: Gobi Mettle on 20/10/2008 16:17:42 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Sounds to me like you've missed the point of hypothesis vs. reality. What you're describing sounds good and all, but in reality it'll just be a frustration because there are so many easy ways to kill you. If you have to reroll, say twice per day - then your concept will just be a grind that will lead you to quit playing. Reroll twice a day? What are you doing to get yourself podded that often? Having said that, at the moment I do rely heavily on character dependent skills to keep me alive in hostile territories which a new character wouldn't have access to. So there is the possibility I suppose that if I create a character (and it would be a new character, not Gobi) to following a Meaningful Death game style, I would never get to the point where I can reliably survive. As an interesting side note, if you knew I was playing the game in this way (for example put a note in my bio saying so) would you be kind or go out of your way to pod me (actually don't answer that - I think I know all ready )
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Rawr Cristina It sounds like you're meaninglessly making death more painful than it needs to be... Sounds like Diablo 2 Hardcore Ladder play.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:28:00 - [25] I think the point of playing games (especially games that concern conflict and war) is that you can have said conflict without dying if you lose. Sure, games of chess would get much more exciting if the loser had to shoot himself, but as it stands, people playing chess have plenty fun without the game having consequences other than just the knowledge of having bested your opponent. Death has more meaning in EVE than it has in chess or many an FPS. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Gobi Mettle Reroll twice a day? What are you doing to get yourself podded that often? I would suggest that you quit playing EVE the moment you get podded, as final consequence. Re-rolling a character and basically starting over, only with the knowledge and contacts you have (basically telling other players, this is me, with a new face) seems ever odder. Restarting the character with fewer skills, seems odds as well, since you've basically not upgraded clones to feel the sting. Character dead = quit EVE, if you want proper hard-core consequences. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:32:00 - [27] If you thinkd eath as it stands is not painfull you grind too much and have much more money than the average pod pilot. Seriouslly: NO. Teh failure of a signature.
Akiba Penrose Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Gobi Mettle 1) If I have an alpha clone which everyone gets for free anyway (so I can't help having that clone), and I die with more skill points than an alpha can protect, do I lose all skill points over that alpha skill point limit or is it chance based? and how does eve decide which skills to deduct points from? is it spread evenly across all trained skills ? is it weighted against higher level skills? or is it based on the training order? Originally by: Gieron Question 1: No, you only loose 5% of the difference between your skill points and the skill points the clone can hold. For example; you have 1,800,000 SP, the clone can hold 800,000 SP, you loose 50,000 SP. You will also lose the SP from your highest ranked lvl 5 skill.
Natalie Mia	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:15:00 - [29] I have one of my own Corpses in my hangar. Actually I made her a glass coffin/coffee table and she is the centerpiece of my living room. She is my real body. I am now in my 3rd body. I never quite feel comfortable in myself as I used to. Now after playing other MMOs the leveling system in this game is alot more time intensive over play intensive. I would not have been playing this game for 2 years if I lost all my character's info every time I get killed. As it is I dont like getting killed I dont have billions lying around everytime I lose my implants. I dont think that this game would be where it is today if that type of system was in place. my $.02 Nat
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:02:00 - [30] Originally by: RedSplat Then Carebears would NEVER leave highsec, blobs would be the norm and.... Forget it, will never happen. Think of the tears 1. Carebears already never leave highsec unless they join an alliance that has super secure 0.0 space for their carebear needs. 2. Blobs are already the norm. These two things give me tears.

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