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Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.28 15:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Roog on 30/06/2004 09:31:49
Hi,
Well our corp became the latest of many to be taken to the cleaners by a corp thief. The theft was carried out by one of our directors and everything is gone. We had just taken posession of the tech 2 cloaking device from the Jove arc at which point our director cleared out all the corp hangers and wallet and then decided to sit and gloat about it in corp chat for 30 minutes.
(We do, however, get to laugh because he took everything before we got the prototype cloaks you need to build them, and if he'd waited 24 hours those would all have been there too along with the majority of tech 2 components required to build them, another couple of hours and we would have had them built.)
I can understand why the GMs don't wish to get involved in this sort of thing because it can be very difficult to prove who owned what. But, our CEO is listed in the eve-online news as having received this BPC so I petitioned to have things returned. After a long discussion with a GM on this subject the current policy is that corp theft will not be interfered with and there is nothing they will do. There is also no way of this being changed because they have decided and there is no place to get the policy changed.
Now this brings me to the point of this discussion. A lot of people have put a lot of hours building this corp up to have it taken away in a matter of minutes. Most of these people don't see the point in carrying on and have decided to quit playing eve altogether. (Before someone points out that it is only a game, yes I know it is, but it's a game I play with my time and I pay for with my money).
So is this the way we want Eve to go? A single SHPOS can steal everything and get away scot free and in the process cause other, 'better' players to leave. Players who spent months in newbie corps introducing players to the game. Players who were trying to build things.
I have been ganked many times but I know I can always get a couple of friends together and get revenge. In this case there is nothing I can do to exact revenge.
Roog
[Edit: Added a question mark at the end of the title so make it more a question than a statement]
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Redwolf
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:00:00 -
[2]
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:09:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Roog
After a long discussion with a GM on this subject the current policy is that corp theft will not be interfered with and there is nothing they will do. There is also no way of this being changed because they have decided and there is no place to get the policy changed.
To say that this is not a problem that should not be addressed denies one of the most anticipated features of Shiva. And that being the ability to lock down blueprints. (I don't think it would have helped with a copy though.)
But it is rather close minded indeed to have a major story line arc and have it whimper out weeks later by concluding in a theft.
Sad really, just plain sad.
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:20:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Roog on 28/06/2004 16:23:19
Edit: Stupid double posts
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
To say that this is not a problem that should not be addressed denies one of the most anticipated features of Shiva. And that being the ability to lock down blueprints. (I don't think it would have helped with a copy though.)
This was one of the arguments I used. However, because the people in the know have already decided that it is okay they wont even think about changing it.
Originally by: Shar Tegral
But it is rather close minded indeed to have a major story line arc and have it whimper out weeks later by concluding in a theft.
TBH it's not the BPC itself, it's what it represents, we are a really small corp and for us to actually bring everyone together to do this has to be comended. We got 1000 shards together, we started with 8 or so. That was a lot of work. We actually only did it for the 20 million because that a *lot* of money to us, even more now.
These are the people who are leaving.
Roog
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Amarissy
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:22:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Amarissy on 28/06/2004 16:27:26
CCP what about a system that will permit a player that chain killed a player (i.e. 3 or 4 time within 2days), to be able to access his/her personal hangars.
That could be a way to help corp to get stuff back from corp thiefs.
maybe not the best idea, but something like that should be possible.
Anyhow, i'm agree that corp. robbering is really the most perveted way to play EVE.
And this kind of robbering is not considered as an act of PIRACY.
Edit: a thief is a thief, not a pirat.
----------------------------------
Unity, Power and Knowledge.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:22:00 -
[7]
6.7 Can I be a corporate spy?
Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. Corporation leaders are urged to exercise extreme caution when accepting new members, particularly when granting access to their private communications and corporate holdings. There are criminal elements in EVE who can, and will, take advantage of unsuspecting marks.
-
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Korben Allahn
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:23:00 -
[8]
Anyone can be made to pay if you podkill them enough.
My solution to your dilemma would be to have everyone quit the corp (if you haven't already) so that he's the only member. Once you've done so, pool your money and start a new Corp. Declare war on his Corp.
THen blast him back into only having the skill to fly the n00b frigate. |
Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Viceroy
6.7 Can I be a corporate spy?
Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. Corporation leaders are urged to exercise extreme caution when accepting new members, particularly when granting access to their private communications and corporate holdings. There are criminal elements in EVE who can, and will, take advantage of unsuspecting marks.
Thanks Viceroy,
I am not arguing that this is not the current policy. What I'm arguing is this a policy we want as part of this game? This act has caused players to leave. Not just from my corp but every corp who seems to post that they have had a theft. If I had caused a player to leave in any other way then it would probably be classed as harasment and there would be some sort of repercussions.
I am trying to generate a discussion on whether this should be policy not about whether it currently is.
Roog
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:41:00 -
[10]
Quote:
I am not arguing that this is not the current policy. What I'm arguing is this a policy we want as part of this game? This act has caused players to leave. Not just from my corp but every corp who seems to post that they have had a theft. If I had caused a player to leave in any other way then it would probably be classed as harasment and there would be some sort of repercussions.
Why should it be considered harasment if someone choses to leave the game? Can I petition harrasment if i just chose to leave the game because my indy got blown up by pirates? Its not harrasment, its part of the game.
Losing ships have probably caused people to leave the game, should we remove weapons all together to prevent this? Is blowing up a ship harasment? No it isnt, its part of the game.
Just like corp theft. You have to secure your corp to avoid it, restrict access, take precautions. If you make corp theft a bannable action, you remove an aspect of the game, and yes, corporate espionage IS a part of the game.
You have to take your precautions against this stuff, its an aspect of the game. Just like equipping warp core stabilizers when going to 0.0, you have to limit access in your corp.
What you propose is the equilvient of removing combat modules because a few people have left the game after having their ships blown up.
I disagree entirely, advanced corporation security systems are coming with Shiva, but corporate theivery should never be a bannable action, its a part of the game, you have to consider it before trusting people.
Otherwise its carebearland, with our big brother GMs watching over us, and everyone mining veldspar because firing a gun MIGHT cause someone to leave the game, and we cant have that kind of harassment can we?
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Omega Man
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:46:00 -
[11]
Sorry to hear about the theft it is gutting for all but one or maybe 2 people in any corp.
I hope those feeling they have no future in Eve can pick themselves up from this and begin to enjoy the game once more.
Name the thief, I presume it is a long standing character to be a director.
The CEO of a corp has a duty of care to all the corp mates to ensure the fundamental assets of a corp are safe.
It is almost criminal not to do so.
You have to learn a corp hangar that has access rights to more than one person is not safe.
You think you can trust people but everyone has a cut off point when the percieved rewards are too great. |
Outlaw Hime
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Posted - 2004.06.28 16:53:00 -
[12]
It's all about piracy.. And as far as I know, there are pirates out there. This is just something you have to take :/
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Denyerec
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:04:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Denyerec on 28/06/2004 17:06:19
It might be "legitimate" but corp thieves are still ****ers. (Wayne Kerrs)
Roog, go after them and don't give up, that's all I can say :( We've been through this twice now so I feel your pain.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:11:00 -
[14]
Quote:
I am not arguing that this is not the current policy. What I'm arguing is this a policy we want as part of this game? This act has caused players to leave. Not just from my corp but every corp who seems to post that they have had a theft. If I had caused a player to leave in any other way then it would probably be classed as harasment and there would be some sort of repercussions.
Speaking as a professional corporate thief and someone who makes a living almost exclusively through such crimes, I say it is a policy I want as part of this game. I'm sorry you've been victimized, but Eve tries to simulate the real world to such an extent that crimes of trust are possible. Don't want to be robbed? Restrict your corporation's access to yourself only (presuming you are the CEO) - or you could hire only people you know personally and can beat up if they transgress against you. I can promise you that I wouldn't walk away with so much as a dime from my robberies if corporations throughout Eve adopted some very simple and stringent access privileges.
Regarding theft driving people away, lots of acts in Eve cause players to leave. Players will leave if they get a ship shot down, or if they get their ore stolen once too many times. Does that mean combat and such should be outlawed altogether? Do you really want an universe with no risk, no peril?
Want to get back at the thief? Rob the next corporation he goes to and tell them they lost what they did because of him. That's just the way the wheel spins, me bucko - sometimes instead of crying to GMs and demanding external aid for a decidedly in-game transgression, you should try taking the law into your own hands. If your moral center is too deep-rooted, you could try hiring some scurvy brigands who wouldn't think twice about griefing your nemesis out of the game.
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:17:00 -
[15]
I agree with Viceroy.
We to have had a few corp thieves and it really can destroy a corp. Many players canĘt believe their trust in a friend has been so misplaced especially by those that plan and scheme a corp theft from the start.
Up till now it has been the lack of in game mechanics for managing large / med corps that typically leads to too much trust / too many privileges being given to a member.
This will all change with some of the nifty new corp management features coming in with Shiva  .
The only other feature I see that could be brought in would be the tagging of items such as ships as corp owned. If a member tried to sell / trade a tagged item or leave the corp with it, the item would be flagged as stolen. The buyer of any item would obviously be warned it was stolen before buying.
Anyone who brought stolen items in empire would then become free target for Concorde and the corp. It should also be possible for members with the security role to remove corp tagged items from a memberĘs personal hanger.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:20:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 28/06/2004 17:22:24
Doing it with your main = a good ingame profession.
Doing it with alts = chicken-**** tactic followed by lamers.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:22:00 -
[17]
I leave my name and corp name on a bookmark in every hangar I clear out. I'm a classy corp thief.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I leave my name and corp name on a bookmark in every hangar I clear out. I'm a classy corp thief.
heh
That's why I edited my post. You admit to being a corp. thief with your main which, in retrospect, is "honest" enough.
I'm assuming Istvaan is your main thoguh...*gets confused*
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Viceroy
Why should it be considered harasment if someone choses to leave the game? Can I petition harrasment if i just chose to leave the game because my indy got blown up by pirates? Its not harrasment, its part of the game.
Losing ships have probably caused people to leave the game, should we remove weapons all together to prevent this? Is blowing up a ship harasment? No it isnt, its part of the game.
I agree, I remember the first time I lost a ship, my shiney new tristan ganked from 150km by guns I could have flown my ship down the barrel off. 
Now if I made it a habit of always picking on the same person, that would be harasment. This is the meat and veg of this discussion. Should this be harasment. Even if it's not, which to be honest I'm not sure it is, shouldn't there be some kind of repercussion? Should this person be criminally flagged towards me so that I can exact revenge? Or is there other possible way to seek revenge? This would continue until the person gave back what was ours.
Originally by: Viceroy
Just like corp theft. You have to secure your corp to avoid it, restrict access, take precautions. If you make corp theft a bannable action, you remove an aspect of the game, and yes, corporate espionage IS a part of the game.
The 'funny' thing is we did. A small bit of history on our corp. We all met in the newbie corp we all started in. We have all know each other since we started playing. We all trusted each other. We all hung about for 3 months in the same newbie corp. We were so paraniod about corp thieves that we didn't recruit any new people at all since the start. Them one day someone changed completly and stole everything. He actually hasn't been on since.
Originally by: Viceroy
You have to take your precautions against this stuff, its an aspect of the game. Just like equipping warp core stabilizers when going to 0.0, you have to limit access in your corp.
What you propose is the equilvient of removing combat modules because a few people have left the game after having their ships blown up.
I agree with you on everything else. That is one of the best things about this game, combat. If I could ever get around to affording a BS I'll get it blown up within 5 minutes because of some foolhardy escapade into 0.0. I really want to get into PvP but I can't get that BS, though with the number of skill points I've got I make a mean tristan pilot
Originally by: Viceroy
I disagree entirely, advanced corporation security systems are coming with Shiva, but corporate theivery should never be a bannable action, its a part of the game, you have to consider it before trusting people.
And you have every right to disagree.
Originally by: Viceroy
Otherwise its carebearland, with our big brother GMs watching over us, and everyone mining veldspar because firing a gun MIGHT cause someone to leave the game, and we cant have that kind of harassment can we?
If it ever becomes like that I'd leave too. This was not a case of corporation spying. Someone just decided at some point they could take everything without repurcussions and get away with it. Someone who you trust and have trusted for ages may just decide to do this. Because they got drunk, because they got a new corp, because they got bored of playing same things every day. I don't believe this was a case of someone setting us up.
Roog
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Saladin
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:28:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Saladin on 28/06/2004 17:29:27
It amazes me how certain corps defend corp theft
as part of the game, but whine about it when it
happens to them. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.06.28 17:46:00 -
[21]
Quote:
I'm assuming Istvaan is your main thoguh...*gets confused*
That it is.
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Agent Shield
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Posted - 2004.06.28 20:08:00 -
[22]
As part of the storyline, I wonder what he will say when he pops in to tell his tale? It might make for an interesting read.
Agent Shield |
Ryctor
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Posted - 2004.06.28 20:29:00 -
[23]
 If you canĘt afford to lose it then keep it in a personal hanger.
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Sunflare
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Posted - 2004.06.28 21:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Roog
Hi,
Well our corp became the latest of many to be taken to the cleaners by a corp thief. The theft was carried out by one of our directors and everything is gone. We had just taken posession of the tech 2 cloaking device from the Jove arc at which point our director cleared out all the corp hangers and wallet and then decided to sit and gloat about it in corp chat for 30 minutes.
So he boasted about it for 30 minutes in corp chat huh? Can you tell me what is required to talk in corp chat? That's right you have to be in the CORP......hmm lets take this a little farther since he is in the corp still your ceo still has the ability to take EVERYTHING from the theifs personal hanger and leave him with nothing.
Too bad you didn't think of that (or was your CEO not online?) cause it really wasn't smart of him to stay in the corp for that long.
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Bohr
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Posted - 2004.06.28 21:22:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Bohr on 28/06/2004 21:25:40
Originally by: Sunflare
Originally by: Roog
Hi,
Well our corp became the latest of many to be taken to the cleaners by a corp thief. The theft was carried out by one of our directors and everything is gone. We had just taken posession of the tech 2 cloaking device from the Jove arc at which point our director cleared out all the corp hangers and wallet and then decided to sit and gloat about it in corp chat for 30 minutes.
So he boasted about it for 30 minutes in corp chat huh? Can you tell me what is required to talk in corp chat? That's right you have to be in the CORP......hmm lets take this a little farther since he is in the corp still your ceo still has the ability to take EVERYTHING from the theifs personal hanger and leave him with nothing.
Too bad you didn't think of that (or was your CEO not online?) cause it really wasn't smart of him to stay in the corp for that long.
Not possible for a CEO to take items from members personal hangars. You're only able to place items there. Think a -back, is in order :P
Edit: Besides he was director. Read the text before you start accusing people of stupidity.
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Argent A'losonde
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Posted - 2004.06.28 22:42:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Argent A'losonde on 28/06/2004 22:43:56
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I'm sorry you've been victimized, but Eve tries to simulate the real world to such an extent that crimes of trust are possible.
heh. i though I was playing EVE to escape the real world :P
I am all for EVE simulating many RL concepts, and I like the idea of espionage being part of the game, but in this case I have to cry foul in the name of balance. I think the extreme gains to be had by corporate theft are not balanced by the risk. I think it is bad game design to allow RL type elements without some RL like repercussions and risks. An alt corp-thief has basically no risk, and even a main char thief is hardly going to blink at being KOS to some corp or alliance when they can replace clones and ships for years on what they stole. not to mention the many powerful ethically-challenged corps out there who will harbor a corp thief.
As it stands now corp theft is an oversight in game mechanics hastily and messily patched to resemble a game feature. Much like CCP writing bugs into the storyline. There is something seriously wrong when people can decide on a whim to******a whole group of "friends" and corpmates who worked hard to progress in EVE and who HAD NO CONTROL over the hangar rights their ceo may have entrusted to someone.... someone who may have truly "proved" themselves trustworthy for months and then suddenly got bored and decided to role-play an "evil" char. That is NOT espionage people. Its not a "devilishly delicious feature" on any level.
I would still like to see espionage in this game, but until there are more game mechanics in place, until there are actual steps and skills involved... it boils down to convincing RL people to RL trust you and then RL betraying that trust. and to me, that emperor is naked no matter how you try to dress and justify it. and no, i am not ranting because I am a victim... it never happened to me or any corp of mine.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.06.28 23:40:00 -
[27]
The solution is clear. Trust no-one.
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Argent A'losonde
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Posted - 2004.06.29 00:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The solution is clear. Trust no-one.
That may be an acceptable solution to you Istvaan... I suppose that works well for your particular chosen profession in EVE. However, I think for a large contingent of players who were drawn to EVE, the whole idea of being in a Corp, making friends, and working and fighting side-by-side with comrades appealed to us. and somehow trust is an intrinic part of that, at least for me. So that solution is not acceptable to me.
Besides that, a corp model by definition is about resting authority, power, and responsiblity among a board of directors who must answer not only to their shareholders, but to very strict laws concerning their conduct. When directors are elected into office that is a vote of confidence.. of trust. In that sense Corps are a defunct institution in EVE because of the wide open vulnerability of corps to thieves. But you are right, you can trust no one in EVE because of the completely lame mechanics governing internal corp security. Corps are a mirage, its every pilot for himself.
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Xadian
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Posted - 2004.06.29 02:02:00 -
[29]
Hmm lets think of a real corporation where a board of directors hasn't completely screwed the corporation over...(cough ENRON cough)
Always hit the big red button whenever you get the chance.
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Valan
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Posted - 2004.06.29 03:07:00 -
[30]
Its a sad fact of life that you cannot trust even your directors. Even though I have a senior rank in EY, my hanger access is heavily restricted. Only the founders of the corp have access to the really valuable stuff. They know each other very well in RL and all being Icelandic, I assume they know where each other live.
Our corp is very close and friendships are growing, with group get togethers in RL. However, this is no excuse to relax security at all.
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Mephorios
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Posted - 2004.06.29 03:20:00 -
[31]
Give us his name and any name of alt's or alternate account characters he has. You can still mess with him and make it damn near impossible for him to do this to anyone again. I've got it myself to former theiving corp mates, and gotten them kicked before they can cause any harm.
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Budz Fergie
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Posted - 2004.06.29 03:47:00 -
[32]
So what is his name so other corps can watch out for him.
[14:23:44] Seek > lol good tank
[14:24:09] Budz Fergie > ty
[14:24:14] Seek > :)
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Procion
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Posted - 2004.06.29 04:14:00 -
[33]
its probably all on ebay by now
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Skelator
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Posted - 2004.06.29 04:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Viceroy
6.7 Can I be a corporate spy?
Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. Corporation leaders are urged to exercise extreme caution when accepting new members, particularly when granting access to their private communications and corporate holdings. There are criminal elements in EVE who can, and will, take advantage of unsuspecting marks.
You are usually Spot On Viceroy But to have a Ceo/Director steal?
I can see thieving alts and spies but when it comes to the Director of the corp it still hurts 
They have us Surrounded again.. the Poor Bastards |
Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.29 05:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Agent Shield
As part of the storyline, I wonder what he will say when he pops in to tell his tale? It might make for an interesting read.
TBH, I'd like to hear it too.
Roog
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
swisher
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Posted - 2004.06.29 05:09:00 -
[36]
Sad to hear the bad news...
-swish
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swisher
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Posted - 2004.06.29 05:13:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mephorios
Give us his name and any name of alt's or alternate account characters he has. You can still mess with him and make it damn near impossible for him to do this to anyone again. I've got it myself to former theiving corp mates, and gotten them kicked before they can cause any harm.
Sorry to say but this will not do you any good...for if the thief is a real pro at this he will already have backup plans for such things..2nd 3rd accounts..and alts..which if he is good at what he does he will not let any of his account cross with one another only with alts when transporting "stolen goods"
This is what makes the difference from corp thieves that are pros and just people that steal things when they get one chance to.
-swish
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Winnux
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Posted - 2004.06.29 06:16:00 -
[38]
Ok what Viceroy said, and add the remark '**** happens'.
Don't put your thrust in to many peeps. Corp I'm in limits the acces to bp's/factory/tech2/etc etc to 2-3 guys who are in the corp for over a year. I will never ever get acces to it, and I don't want to.
You have to thrust someone at some point, and it really sucks if it gets violated, but hey, that's the way it goes.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.06.29 06:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The solution is clear. Trust no-one.
Welll, given no-one would trust you with a rusty butter knife...
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Lermitte
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Posted - 2004.06.29 07:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Sunflare
Originally by: Roog
Hi,
Well our corp became the latest of many to be taken to the cleaners by a corp thief. The theft was carried out by one of our directors and everything is gone. We had just taken posession of the tech 2 cloaking device from the Jove arc at which point our director cleared out all the corp hangers and wallet and then decided to sit and gloat about it in corp chat for 30 minutes.
So he boasted about it for 30 minutes in corp chat huh? Can you tell me what is required to talk in corp chat? That's right you have to be in the CORP......hmm lets take this a little farther since he is in the corp still your ceo still has the ability to take EVERYTHING from the theifs personal hanger and leave him with nothing.
Too bad you didn't think of that (or was your CEO not online?) cause it really wasn't smart of him to stay in the corp for that long.
1. It takes 24 hours to kick someone from a corp. (We had a similar problem with 2 members and it was frustrating we couldnt insta kick them, until we realised we could blow them up)
2. No one can take from personal hangars.
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Busko Moonwalker
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Posted - 2004.06.29 09:24:00 -
[41]
Well u say dont give access to anyone u dont trust hmm i heard about a direcotr cleaning a corp that been there for 7 months. How long will it take to be trusted :) thats why it ends up everone get ego and keep all the stuff they get in there hangar.
The problem is the only punishemet Right now is PODing the guy/girl that have stolen the stuff.
Maybe there should be a way that the thife gets like -10 sec rating directly or something so the ingame cops can get a part, right now concord is a bunch of ... that mostly blow up noobs that makes some mistake :)
/Busko
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.06.29 10:51:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The solution is clear. Trust no-one.
Just doesnĘt work. In a small corp 1-10 players maybe you can restrict access to everything but yourself and perhaps one other person, but once you grow your corp and start hitting the 20-30 mark it just doesnĘt become practical since you cant physically manage that many people on your own, and if directors or CEO's are not on then the corp cant function.
You have to trust peeps, take on more many more directors if you are to run a med - large size corp.
Really more in game mechanics are needed to prevent massive theft. Shiva is a big step, but as I mentioned before more mechanisms like the BP lock down in Shiva are needed with other corp assets.
E.g. tagging of corp items as corp owned so they canĘt be sold - without approval by at least 3 directors, limit on cash that can be taken from corp account every 24hrs by single director / CEO again unless with vote / approval of X number of directors to take more etc...
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herot
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Posted - 2004.06.29 12:54:00 -
[43]
Can't see how it could hurt to post the name of the scoundrel, so here goes:
Salomorin
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Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.29 14:03:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Roog on 29/06/2004 14:04:13
Originally by: Busko Moonwalker
The problem is the only punishemet Right now is PODing the guy/girl that have stolen the stuff.
Maybe there should be a way that the thife gets like -10 sec rating directly or something so the ingame cops can get a part, right now concord is a bunch of ... that mostly blow up noobs that makes some mistake :)
That's kinda a nice idea, but I would change it slightly. You get a sec hit dependent on the value of things being stolen. If you leave a corp in the possesion of things flagged as being owned by the corp or sell things flagged as being ownec by the corp then you take sec hits.
But then again if you take the same thing further. Administration would become a nightmare for anyone who actually produces things for the corp for sale. You would have to have a quick way so he can get corp sellable items onto market. Now your back again where someone has access and can remove things.
Also I know many of our members use the corps labs and factories for their own personal stuff. With the lack of labs in the game this is needed. When whatever you are doing runs out the ouput from the factory or lab is the production corp hanger (AFAIK) so you need to give access to people to allow them to get their stuff back. And in our criminal flagging example is the BP and the shiney new device owned by the corp.
Hmmm, might wander over to ideas lab, or shiva corporations thread to suggest some of this.
Roog
---
I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Quantum Gopher
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Posted - 2004.06.29 15:43:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Xadian
Hmm lets think of a real corporation where a board of directors hasn't completely screwed the corporation over...(cough ENRON cough)
What I find ironic is that we know about this corporation because they were found out. Their crimes were discovered and they are answering for their crimes. 
In EVE, the criminal can brag without fear of prosecution. It's a whole different situation...and the looted corporation is the one left to bear the cost while the criminal goes free. The corp has no chance to recover it's stolen assetts or for justice. 
Only revenge remains. We've come so far in this universe only be brought so low by our own base natures. The more things change, the more they stay the same...it's just a different day. 
Q. Gopher
__________
I know...it's only ROCK and roll, but I like it!! |
Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.06.29 16:19:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Quantum Gopher
In EVE, the criminal can brag without fear of prosecution. It's a whole different situation...and the looted corporation is the one left to bear the cost while the criminal goes free. The corp has no chance to recover it's stolen assetts or for justice.
This is the biggest problem in EVE - no accountability.
Unlimited alts which can be deleted mean no accountability = im not going to go into the whole alt debate, but imho if alts are here to stay, then you should be allowed 3 alts but once you create them you cannot delete them. They become your 3 chars for the life-time of the account.
One other useful piece of info would be the date the ACCOUNT was created aswell as the date of the char. This would be useful for detecting corp thieves who implant themselves in a corp as a noob from the start.
As posted above there needs to be some justice / accountablity for ones actions and forcing players to live with their chars and their actions for the duration of their play is one way of doing this.
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OrbitalEffect
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Posted - 2004.06.29 16:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I leave my name and corp name on a bookmark in every hangar I clear out. I'm a classy corp thief.
How many corp thieves are "honest" and use their main? I'm willing to bet close to none. Therefore, repeatedly podding a corp thief is almost never an option, and in the rare case it is, it is still not a satisfactory remedy.
The game lacks the proper mechanisms to prevent/rectify this issue and it leaves players unsatisfied.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.06.29 16:30:00 -
[48]
I was a corp-psychopath once
-
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Korben Allahn
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Posted - 2004.06.29 16:38:00 -
[49]
There is no excuse for whining in a universe where you can kill what peeved you over, and over, and over again.
If you're hit by a corp thief, either kill him yourself of pay someone else to do it.
Or, if you know where he's going in .4 and under, contact the pirates most common in the area and tip them off to the ship full of corp stuff entering their space. You won't get your gear back, but you'll have the satisfaction of being a rat bastard to the person who ganked your stuff, and the pirates might go a little easier on you in the region.
I keep a teddy bear in my pod with me. A teddy bear with sharp teeth, massive claws, and a pinache for eating the flesh of podded corpses. I call him "Fuzzy". |
Argent A'losonde
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Posted - 2004.06.29 20:35:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Korben Allahn
There is no excuse for whining in a universe where you can kill what peeved you over, and over, and over again.
If you're hit by a corp thief, either kill him yourself of pay someone else to do it.
um Korben, the person who started this thread was just asking for discussion... in a very non-whining manner I might add. I happen to know you are fairly new to eve because I stumbled on your thread yesterday and I will just say... i guarantee you can find whining examples galore on these forums without too much effort, but this hardly qualifies as one of them. 
Also, I would like to highlight to you that a huge part of the problem people are discussing is the fact that corp thefts are accomplished by alts.. which makes finding him and killing them near impossible.
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Attrael
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Posted - 2004.06.29 20:50:00 -
[51]
Quote:
I was a corp-psychopath once
You still ARE a corp-psychopath.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.06.29 21:48:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Argent A'losonde
Also, I would like to highlight to you that a huge part of the problem people are discussing is the fact that corp thefts are accomplished by alts.. which makes finding him and killing them near impossible.
That's the whole key point of the problem. The fact that there is no way to properly retaliate. You log in one day, everything is gone, and viola' there ain't s. h. i. t. you can do about it.
Nothing.
And you have these people saying, "But it's good for the game, it's a profession choice, Eve is about non-consentual conflicts, blah-blah-blah." What they are really saying is, "The game mechanics allow us to abuse others and we don't want it to change. We might actually have to pay for our behavior if it does!"
There is no bigger carebear then a corp thief. No matter how you dice it. Massive reward for zero risk with zero reprecussion.
Sounds rather carebearish to me...
So as a personal opinion, regardless if I like you or not, those in favor of allowing the game mechanics to continue like it does... go screw yourselves.
Player or GM.
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Korben Allahn
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Posted - 2004.06.29 21:51:00 -
[53]
Argent, I wasn't addressing the original poster, but the thread kinda drifted into the direction of general Corp looting complaints and that's what I was addressing. I should have clarified that before.
As far as the Alts are concerned, there's a simple cure. My first corp did this.
Before induction, require that the person applying submit a screenshot of their Character Selection screen via e-mail. Keep the alts of your employees on file. That way, if you get robbed like that, then you can go kill both the alt and the main all you like.
It won't STOP Corp Looting but that sort of policy would certainly cut down on it, as most people aren't going to stop training their main long enough to powertrain a brand-new alt after they've been hired.
You can even request the screenshots as a once-per-month security policy if you feel like someone might be building an alt up for that purpose. It takes a long time to make an alt to steal a BS from scratch, and if you monitor the alts you can nearly cure the problem.
THe only thing that screws you is if the CEO does it, but they seem to brag a lot from their main when that happens.
I keep a teddy bear in my pod with me. A teddy bear with sharp teeth, massive claws, and a pinache for eating the flesh of podded corpses. I call him "Fuzzy". |
GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2004.06.29 21:52:00 -
[54]
Edited by: GoGo Yubari on 29/06/2004 21:54:52
Okay, EVE is a game, but in some sense it is also a virtual world of its own. I happen to like that fact a lot, which is why I throw in some RP and things like that.
Yes, corp theft sucks really bad if it gets done to you. I don't wonder people whine as something like that can gut a corporation entirely. However, as part of the game-world, I think it definately has its place, exactly as penned in the FAQ answer.
I also admit that the person who committed this act contacted me to sell some of the stolen goods. I might even buy some, even though I'm personally (meaning I wouldn't do it) opposed to such activity, but since I'm occasionally a nasty person, why not?
Still, these cases leave me wondering about corporate security. I know I keep a tight check on things with a rather strict "we don't recruit"-policy, though we do draw new members from old friends (and in such a case, a backstabbing would certainly suck). Obviously, it would be nice to get some more systems in place for the corporations to handle these things, like setting differing levels of access for characters (beyond the current clunky role system).
Still, in every situation the risk of theft remains, but I say let it. There's an amount of work involved in corp theft as well, no doubt. Makes things more interesting, once more. In fact, this diversity -- the things that make EVE as unbelievably huge in possibilities -- makes this a more real world and something occasionally more than "just a game", though, in the end, it's still just a game.
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Korben Allahn
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Posted - 2004.06.29 21:54:00 -
[55]
If you really want the devs to fix it, do away with alts.
Yeah, I'm not sure I like that either.
I keep a teddy bear in my pod with me. A teddy bear with sharp teeth, massive claws, and a pinache for eating the flesh of podded corpses. I call him "Fuzzy". |
Argent A'losonde
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Posted - 2004.06.29 22:30:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Argent A'losonde on 29/06/2004 22:45:24
Originally by: Korben Allahn
Before induction, require that the person applying submit a screenshot of their Character Selection screen via e-mail. Keep the alts of your employees on file. That way, if you get robbed like that, then you can go kill both the alt and the main all you like.
I can think of two very easy ways around that off the top of my non-devious head... Not too pick apart your point, but just to warn corps who try that technique not to place 100% faith in it.
And as a side note: I would like to see just once where a corp thief who justifies their "profession" as a role-playing move show some role-playing integrity and destroy some of those bp's, minerals, and loot they pillage. That would sabotage their enemies just as well. Or, if they are stealing for personal gain, for once I would like to hear that they only took two bpo's out of the ten they could have taken for rp reasons.. ie. they could only fit the data for two bp's in their recorder. Perhaps then, I could start to respect the "profession" a little bit.
as someone said quite well:
Originally by: Shar Tegral
There is no bigger carebear then a corp thief. No matter how you dice it. Massive reward for zero risk with zero reprecussion.
Sounds rather carebearish to me...
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Korben Allahn
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Posted - 2004.06.29 22:58:00 -
[57]
Like I said, it's not fullproof.
I see 4 ways to skirt around it, but they are unlikely enough to still prevent frequency of corpthievery.
The first, of course, is to make an alt AFTER the screenshot, but I addressed a solution to that.
The second is to actually pay for two accounts. But hell, if you're paying $30+ a month just to be a douchebag, the idiot is definitely not the corporation.
The third is to Photoshop your other alt right out of the picture, but again, it's too much work. The very thing that the thief is trying to do is do as little work as possible, so the likelihood that the person will be patient enough to PERFECTLY edit their login screen is slim.
The fourth is to take a screenshot without an Alt, then use that screenshot forever, even if you make alts later. This means they've been planning to thieve like female genetalias since they started with EVE, also a rarity considering what a n00b is usually thinking when they start this game: "wow! Now how the hell do I get this control interface going?"
I keep a teddy bear in my pod with me. A teddy bear with sharp teeth, massive claws, and a pinache for eating the flesh of podded corpses. I call him "Fuzzy". |
Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2004.06.29 23:06:00 -
[58]
"Professional" corp thieves rarely attain "director" status, or even high-level hangar rights. Alot of them simply clean out the lower levels for cash. However, once in a while someone gives a dodgy person access, and WHOOP. Everything is gone.
For corp thieves, it's a question of rewards vs. time put in. A good theft takes ages, and you run the risk of being found out every step of the way. So it's often best to cut your lossess and make do with surefire 80 mil instead of dodgy 800 mil.
When it comes to directors robbing, there usually is a reason. The director was unhappy, about to lose his station, something. And sometimes he has opted for the dodgy 800 mil.
Unless, of course, it is common for corps to give out hangar access to their week-old newbies. In that case, said corps are idiots.
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Percivs
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Posted - 2004.06.29 23:39:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
.
.
.
So as a personal opinion, regardless if I like you or not, those in favor of allowing the game mechanics to continue like it does... go screw yourselves.
Player or GM.
Here here.
I'm going to not stand on my moral soap box and preach to you about how bad and wrong corp theft is. However, I am fully behind any adjustment to the mechanics of Eve that allow for appropriate reprocussions for a crime.
As an idea:
Once logs are in place, track the base value of items taken from the corporate hangers in addition to what is actually taken. If the amount crosses a certain threshhold (which can be set in the corp edit window) then the act can be flagged as theft. Theft should then result in a revokable "free hit contract" or some other means to punish the transgressor. Sort of like a war, but against an individual.
To be fair, the corp could only hold 1 of these at a time and cannot change the identity of the thief except when a new person steals from the corporation. The "contract" could be revoked at any time by the CEO.
If the CEO takes the stuff, then there really isn't a resolution under the above system, because he's pretty much king and can instead of stealing anything just revoke everyone's rights in the corp and lock everyone out. Then, by definition, he's denied everyone access but not "literally" stolen anything.
A part of this has to be resolved by more stringent IRL security policies, but part of it definately needs to be improved within the game.
---
"All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field" - A.E. |
Agent Shield
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Posted - 2004.06.30 00:15:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Argent A'losonde
And as a side note: I would like to see just once where a corp thief who justifies their "profession" as a role-playing move show some role-playing integrity and destroy some of those bp's, minerals, and loot they pillage. That would sabotage their enemies just as well.
While not quite a professional, professionals plan it and have a goal, but this has happened. Agent Shield & Parthon from the Crew of Two stole from their old corp and gave away all the blueprints in a raffle the day Castor came out. It was an all day event and a couple of hundred blueprints were given away to the masses.
Of course they kept the isk, that isk was needed to insure ship replacements, modules, etc... for any future retaliation that might occur for their actions against their former corp.
But since the blueprints were going to be given to a corp that was harmed by a different action (that corp turned down the blueprints of it's enemies) it was decided to give them all away.
So things do happen differently that some players think. Not all players who have stole from their past corps did it with an alt and left the game; some actually continue to play and have no qualms about past actions and do it with their main.
Agent Shield |
Sergeant Bilko
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Posted - 2004.06.30 00:34:00 -
[61]
Give us the full story eh? Why did he/she just up and steal all that stuff? Maybe he/she is not the only one involved, quick check the others who quit right off the bat, there in on it I bet..OMG maybe the ceo knew about it and was being blackmailed..or he/she is in on it too..my god this is just like "Days of Our Lives"
anyway whats the full story..maybe it can be prevented before the person even gets in the corp.
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Skape Gote
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Posted - 2004.06.30 03:39:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Skape Gote on 30/06/2004 03:41:32
Hi there,
Firstly i best point out Im posting with my alt, no real reason for this, I just like my alts name he he.
When i first started many months ago I joined a fledgling corp and as things progressed I was ask to be a director as my CEO needed help running it as we were getting significantly larger. After a few months I decided to join a new pirate corp that was setting up (piracy was strictly forbidden in my 1st corp). The new corp asked me to clear out the corp wallet and make off with a Badger 2 full of all the corps gear and bp's. I refused and my new corp mates couldnt understand this. The truth was my old corp mates were what i would class as friends, we had worked damn hard to make the corp succesful and although I fancied a change of direction I still respected my old corp mates enough not to do the dirty.
My point is that although the material stuff can be replaced (eventually) its the genuine feeling of being let down by someone you believed to be a mate and had worked hard with to make a success of things that is the bitter pill.
There are corp thieves who rely on CEO's giving them to much access and quite frankly in these cases the CEO deserves everything they get but when you have built something up from nothing with them then its nothing short of a betrayal, which i think is an issue that the original poster will have to deal with and sort out.
Good luck Roog and name names, at least as a warning to others, as i would suspect this isnt an alt if they have been there from the start.
Edit - Bugger this isnt my alt its my main, whoops he he
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guess I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue...... |
Greedyone
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Posted - 2004.06.30 03:58:00 -
[63]
ugh..thats so low :(
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Ostaps
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Posted - 2004.06.30 08:24:00 -
[64]
If one cannot guard his own home, he himself is to blame.
Trust no one, keep the most valuable items in the most secure places where nobody
can access them, not even your mother.
And on a sidenote:
Never join pirates who are not honorable :) For asking a new member to commit corp theft is too dirty. Individual approach and style (even if a bit reasonably unfair) is what makes a pirate cool.
Ostaps
The Intergalactic Comitee of Veldspar Preservation :)
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Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.30 09:07:00 -
[65]
Hi,
Okay a couple of corp updates, although this is slightly moving away from what I wanted this thread to be.
As someone said the character in question was Salomorin. As far as I know this is not an alt. The reason he is trusted as well as everyone else is that we all joined eve at around the same time and have played together, either in the newbie corp or in our own corp since the beginning of this year (around 6 months). To avoid corp theft we did not ask anyone to join who we hadn't know for at least 2 months. (Notable exceptions are current members real life friends and family.)
We have contacted the thief and managed to purchase back with personal cash the tech 2 cloaking device BPC and the skillbooks. Everything else can be re-mined or purchased. We all lived for 4 months in the newbie corp before starting our own so are pretty self sufficient individually.
I find it kinda funny that he contacted GoGo as a possible person to sell stuff to. GoGo is the CEO of the only corp we are currently at war with
The biggest thing about this is the letdown, not the stuff, stuff can be replaced. Someone I classed as a friend (as I still do all the people I play with) screwed me. The world of eve feels that wee bit sadder.
Roog
---
I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.30 09:19:00 -
[66]
Hi,
Okay as we seem to have a quite a good discussion going and there seems to be an agreement (of sorts) that corp theft is part of the game and probably always should be. We also seem to agree that it sucks because normally it's friends who do it. I think we also believe that there should be more chance for retribution.
Okay here I'm talking hypothetically, this does not relate in any way to this case AFAIK.
o Alts, this is another case where alts can be used for underhanded deeds. Should the rules about corp theft be changed so that if an alt is used to carry out the theft then this is punishable (by suspension etc). Should there be better tracking of alts? Are alts a good idea at all? (I use mine solely for buy orders to make sure I've always got the money to cover it and don't accidently spend it.)
o Leavers, take a situation when someone decides for whatever reason to leave (e.g. needs to spend more time in RL, can't afford upkeep of account or just gets bored) they clean out the corp they are in either out of spite or to make the account seem more attractive for resale. If someone wished to recoup some or all of the money they have spent playing eve the resell value of the account would be greater if you could get hold of a lot more equipment and BPs or even resold these goods for straight cash. Should this be allowed? Should this be punishable?
Just to keep the discussion going
Roog
---
I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Astinius
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Posted - 2004.06.30 10:42:00 -
[67]
CCP has a big role in this. Corp theft should be allow to happen but this game has no legal system to keep it in check. CCP should develop tools that allow a corp to go after the thief and either punish him, get compensation or flags him as a corp thief.
The bounty system is half-assed at best.
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Deadflip2
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Posted - 2004.06.30 11:01:00 -
[68]
corptheft is one thing, beeing accused of it when you've never stolen anything in your whole eve life is another.
corp thiefs dont only steal from corperations but also black people like me that have had lots of corperations to a point where i wont be accepted in the majority of corperations anymore....
---
"this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me.
I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist
OMG im a pretzel!!! |
herot
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Posted - 2004.06.30 12:23:00 -
[69]
As Roog said he claims this character to be his main (Salomorin). And that he has robbed almost every corp he's been in it with.
But he also said that he used alts as well. In fact he claimed that his first corptheft was again against Corp1 with an alt named Anoroc.
(sorry for being a bit of topic Roog)
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GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2004.06.30 12:25:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Roog
I find it kinda funny that he contacted GoGo as a possible person to sell stuff to. GoGo is the CEO of the only corp we are currently at war with
Yeah, at first I thought it was some kind of a weird trap (you wouldn't believe the "ideas" pirates get sent sometimes). Sounded too fishy, but apparently not. Then again, I guess I was exactly the right person to talk to in this instance for fencing the loot (the war and all).
Good luck in rebuilding, nevertheless.
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Agent Shield
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Posted - 2004.06.30 13:29:00 -
[71]
The game has no way of telling when someone has stole, so the legal system in a theft is a bit lopsided towards the thief's favor.
How will CCP add a legal system for theft, this will be a very interesting concept if it gets implemented. Not only does it need to verify that the theft occurred, but also make sure it is not abused and have loopholes in it.
Current system sucks for those who have been stolen from, but that is part of the game.
Agent Shield |
Roog
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Posted - 2004.06.30 13:43:00 -
[72]
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
Originally by: Roog
I find it kinda funny that he contacted GoGo as a possible person to sell stuff to. GoGo is the CEO of the only corp we are currently at war with
Yeah, at first I thought it was some kind of a weird trap (you wouldn't believe the "ideas" pirates get sent sometimes). Sounded too fishy, but apparently not. Then again, I guess I was exactly the right person to talk to in this instance for fencing the loot (the war and all).
Yeah I'm still trying to work out if the player courier missions that are set up near our space right into the two systems your lot inhabit are a sneaky way of getting us to fly laden indies in.
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
Good luck in rebuilding, nevertheless.
Thanks
Roog
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Roog
|
Posted - 2004.06.30 13:46:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Deadflip2
corptheft is one thing, beeing accused of it when you've never stolen anything in your whole eve life is another.
corp thiefs dont only steal from corperations but also black people like me that have had lots of corperations to a point where i wont be accepted in the majority of corperations anymore....
I suppose this is the flip side of the coin. If someone is leaving your corp what is to stop someone in the corp clearing out what they can and blaming it on you because you had just left.
As you mentioned it also makes it difficult for people who have been in a number of corps to get recruited.
(We know he stole, he bragged in corp chat and our CEO and security officer could both see the stuff sitting in his personal hanger. Yes you can see, many attempts to take it out failed )
Roog
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I just thought of something funny....Your mum! |
Omega Man
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Posted - 2004.06.30 14:16:00 -
[74]
this has been mentioned plenty of times before but maybe a few have not heard it as a suggestion.
What we need is a "family tree" of characters so stealing with alts is not possible. That way a person carries his character history with him as dead characters as well as current characters could be identified.
Making game actions more accountable would reduce the "rewards" of corp theft. |
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