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Corp Thieves - A blight on EVE?

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Roog	Posted - 2004.06.28 15:56:00 - [1] Edited by: Roog on 30/06/2004 09:31:49 Hi, Well our corp became the latest of many to be taken to the cleaners by a corp thief. The theft was carried out by one of our directors and everything is gone. We had just taken posession of the tech 2 cloaking device from the Jove arc at which point our director cleared out all the corp hangers and wallet and then decided to sit and gloat about it in corp chat for 30 minutes. (We do, however, get to laugh because he took everything before we got the prototype cloaks you need to build them, and if he'd waited 24 hours those would all have been there too along with the majority of tech 2 components required to build them, another couple of hours and we would have had them built.) I can understand why the GMs don't wish to get involved in this sort of thing because it can be very difficult to prove who owned what. But, our CEO is listed in the eve-online news as having received this BPC so I petitioned to have things returned. After a long discussion with a GM on this subject the current policy is that corp theft will not be interfered with and there is nothing they will do. There is also no way of this being changed because they have decided and there is no place to get the policy changed. Now this brings me to the point of this discussion. A lot of people have put a lot of hours building this corp up to have it taken away in a matter of minutes. Most of these people don't see the point in carrying on and have decided to quit playing eve altogether. (Before someone points out that it is only a game, yes I know it is, but it's a game I play with my time and I pay for with my money). So is this the way we want Eve to go? A single SHPOS can steal everything and get away scot free and in the process cause other, 'better' players to leave. Players who spent months in newbie corps introducing players to the game. Players who were trying to build things. I have been ganked many times but I know I can always get a couple of friends together and get revenge. In this case there is nothing I can do to exact revenge. Roog [Edit: Added a question mark at the end of the title so make it more a question than a statement] --- I just thought of something funny....Your mum!
Redwolf	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:00:00 - [2]
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Roog After a long discussion with a GM on this subject the current policy is that corp theft will not be interfered with and there is nothing they will do. There is also no way of this being changed because they have decided and there is no place to get the policy changed. To say that this is not a problem that should not be addressed denies one of the most anticipated features of Shiva. And that being the ability to lock down blueprints. (I don't think it would have helped with a copy though.) But it is rather close minded indeed to have a major story line arc and have it whimper out weeks later by concluding in a theft. Sad really, just plain sad. Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
Roog	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:20:00 - [4] Edited by: Roog on 28/06/2004 16:23:19 Edit: Stupid double posts --- I just thought of something funny....Your mum!
Roog	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:21:00 - [5] Originally by: Shar Tegral To say that this is not a problem that should not be addressed denies one of the most anticipated features of Shiva. And that being the ability to lock down blueprints. (I don't think it would have helped with a copy though.) This was one of the arguments I used. However, because the people in the know have already decided that it is okay they wont even think about changing it. Originally by: Shar Tegral But it is rather close minded indeed to have a major story line arc and have it whimper out weeks later by concluding in a theft. TBH it's not the BPC itself, it's what it represents, we are a really small corp and for us to actually bring everyone together to do this has to be comended. We got 1000 shards together, we started with 8 or so. That was a lot of work. We actually only did it for the 20 million because that a lot of money to us, even more now. These are the people who are leaving. Roog --- I just thought of something funny....Your mum!
Amarissy	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:22:00 - [6] Edited by: Amarissy on 28/06/2004 16:27:26 CCP what about a system that will permit a player that chain killed a player (i.e. 3 or 4 time within 2days), to be able to access his/her personal hangars. That could be a way to help corp to get stuff back from corp thiefs. maybe not the best idea, but something like that should be possible. Anyhow, i'm agree that corp. robbering is really the most perveted way to play EVE. And this kind of robbering is not considered as an act of PIRACY. Edit: a thief is a thief, not a pirat. ---------------------------------- Unity, Power and Knowledge.
Viceroy	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:22:00 - [7] 6.7 Can I be a corporate spy? Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. Corporation leaders are urged to exercise extreme caution when accepting new members, particularly when granting access to their private communications and corporate holdings. There are criminal elements in EVE who can, and will, take advantage of unsuspecting marks. -
Korben Allahn	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:23:00 - [8] Anyone can be made to pay if you podkill them enough. My solution to your dilemma would be to have everyone quit the corp (if you haven't already) so that he's the only member. Once you've done so, pool your money and start a new Corp. Declare war on his Corp. THen blast him back into only having the skill to fly the n00b frigate.
Roog	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Viceroy 6.7 Can I be a corporate spy? Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. Corporation leaders are urged to exercise extreme caution when accepting new members, particularly when granting access to their private communications and corporate holdings. There are criminal elements in EVE who can, and will, take advantage of unsuspecting marks. Thanks Viceroy, I am not arguing that this is not the current policy. What I'm arguing is this a policy we want as part of this game? This act has caused players to leave. Not just from my corp but every corp who seems to post that they have had a theft. If I had caused a player to leave in any other way then it would probably be classed as harasment and there would be some sort of repercussions. I am trying to generate a discussion on whether this should be policy not about whether it currently is. Roog --- I just thought of something funny....Your mum!
Viceroy	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:41:00 - [10] Quote: I am not arguing that this is not the current policy. What I'm arguing is this a policy we want as part of this game? This act has caused players to leave. Not just from my corp but every corp who seems to post that they have had a theft. If I had caused a player to leave in any other way then it would probably be classed as harasment and there would be some sort of repercussions. Why should it be considered harasment if someone choses to leave the game? Can I petition harrasment if i just chose to leave the game because my indy got blown up by pirates? Its not harrasment, its part of the game. Losing ships have probably caused people to leave the game, should we remove weapons all together to prevent this? Is blowing up a ship harasment? No it isnt, its part of the game. Just like corp theft. You have to secure your corp to avoid it, restrict access, take precautions. If you make corp theft a bannable action, you remove an aspect of the game, and yes, corporate espionage IS a part of the game. You have to take your precautions against this stuff, its an aspect of the game. Just like equipping warp core stabilizers when going to 0.0, you have to limit access in your corp. What you propose is the equilvient of removing combat modules because a few people have left the game after having their ships blown up. I disagree entirely, advanced corporation security systems are coming with Shiva, but corporate theivery should never be a bannable action, its a part of the game, you have to consider it before trusting people. Otherwise its carebearland, with our big brother GMs watching over us, and everyone mining veldspar because firing a gun MIGHT cause someone to leave the game, and we cant have that kind of harassment can we? -
Omega Man	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:46:00 - [11] Sorry to hear about the theft it is gutting for all but one or maybe 2 people in any corp. I hope those feeling they have no future in Eve can pick themselves up from this and begin to enjoy the game once more. Name the thief, I presume it is a long standing character to be a director. The CEO of a corp has a duty of care to all the corp mates to ensure the fundamental assets of a corp are safe. It is almost criminal not to do so. You have to learn a corp hangar that has access rights to more than one person is not safe. You think you can trust people but everyone has a cut off point when the percieved rewards are too great.
Outlaw Hime	Posted - 2004.06.28 16:53:00 - [12] It's all about piracy.. And as far as I know, there are pirates out there. This is just something you have to take :/
Denyerec	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:04:00 - [13] Edited by: Denyerec on 28/06/2004 17:06:19 It might be "legitimate" but corp thieves are still ****ers. (Wayne Kerrs) Roog, go after them and don't give up, that's all I can say :( We've been through this twice now so I feel your pain.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:11:00 - [14] Quote: I am not arguing that this is not the current policy. What I'm arguing is this a policy we want as part of this game? This act has caused players to leave. Not just from my corp but every corp who seems to post that they have had a theft. If I had caused a player to leave in any other way then it would probably be classed as harasment and there would be some sort of repercussions. Speaking as a professional corporate thief and someone who makes a living almost exclusively through such crimes, I say it is a policy I want as part of this game. I'm sorry you've been victimized, but Eve tries to simulate the real world to such an extent that crimes of trust are possible. Don't want to be robbed? Restrict your corporation's access to yourself only (presuming you are the CEO) - or you could hire only people you know personally and can beat up if they transgress against you. I can promise you that I wouldn't walk away with so much as a dime from my robberies if corporations throughout Eve adopted some very simple and stringent access privileges. Regarding theft driving people away, lots of acts in Eve cause players to leave. Players will leave if they get a ship shot down, or if they get their ore stolen once too many times. Does that mean combat and such should be outlawed altogether? Do you really want an universe with no risk, no peril? Want to get back at the thief? Rob the next corporation he goes to and tell them they lost what they did because of him. That's just the way the wheel spins, me bucko - sometimes instead of crying to GMs and demanding external aid for a decidedly in-game transgression, you should try taking the law into your own hands. If your moral center is too deep-rooted, you could try hiring some scurvy brigands who wouldn't think twice about griefing your nemesis out of the game.
Xavier Arron	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:17:00 - [15] I agree with Viceroy. We to have had a few corp thieves and it really can destroy a corp. Many players canÆt believe their trust in a friend has been so misplaced especially by those that plan and scheme a corp theft from the start. Up till now it has been the lack of in game mechanics for managing large / med corps that typically leads to too much trust / too many privileges being given to a member. This will all change with some of the nifty new corp management features coming in with Shiva . The only other feature I see that could be brought in would be the tagging of items such as ships as corp owned. If a member tried to sell / trade a tagged item or leave the corp with it, the item would be flagged as stolen. The buyer of any item would obviously be warned it was stolen before buying. Anyone who brought stolen items in empire would then become free target for Concorde and the corp. It should also be possible for members with the security role to remove corp tagged items from a memberÆs personal hanger.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:20:00 - [16] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 28/06/2004 17:22:24 Doing it with your main = a good ingame profession. Doing it with alts = chicken-** tactic followed by lamers. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:22:00 - [17] I leave my name and corp name on a bookmark in every hangar I clear out. I'm a classy corp thief.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I leave my name and corp name on a bookmark in every hangar I clear out. I'm a classy corp thief. heh That's why I edited my post. You admit to being a corp. thief with your main which, in retrospect, is "honest" enough. I'm assuming Istvaan is your main thoguh...gets confused LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Roog	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Viceroy Why should it be considered harasment if someone choses to leave the game? Can I petition harrasment if i just chose to leave the game because my indy got blown up by pirates? Its not harrasment, its part of the game. Losing ships have probably caused people to leave the game, should we remove weapons all together to prevent this? Is blowing up a ship harasment? No it isnt, its part of the game. I agree, I remember the first time I lost a ship, my shiney new tristan ganked from 150km by guns I could have flown my ship down the barrel off. Now if I made it a habit of always picking on the same person, that would be harasment. This is the meat and veg of this discussion. Should this be harasment. Even if it's not, which to be honest I'm not sure it is, shouldn't there be some kind of repercussion? Should this person be criminally flagged towards me so that I can exact revenge? Or is there other possible way to seek revenge? This would continue until the person gave back what was ours. Originally by: Viceroy Just like corp theft. You have to secure your corp to avoid it, restrict access, take precautions. If you make corp theft a bannable action, you remove an aspect of the game, and yes, corporate espionage IS a part of the game. The 'funny' thing is we did. A small bit of history on our corp. We all met in the newbie corp we all started in. We have all know each other since we started playing. We all trusted each other. We all hung about for 3 months in the same newbie corp. We were so paraniod about corp thieves that we didn't recruit any new people at all since the start. Them one day someone changed completly and stole everything. He actually hasn't been on since. Originally by: Viceroy You have to take your precautions against this stuff, its an aspect of the game. Just like equipping warp core stabilizers when going to 0.0, you have to limit access in your corp. What you propose is the equilvient of removing combat modules because a few people have left the game after having their ships blown up. I agree with you on everything else. That is one of the best things about this game, combat. If I could ever get around to affording a BS I'll get it blown up within 5 minutes because of some foolhardy escapade into 0.0. I really want to get into PvP but I can't get that BS, though with the number of skill points I've got I make a mean tristan pilot Originally by: Viceroy I disagree entirely, advanced corporation security systems are coming with Shiva, but corporate theivery should never be a bannable action, its a part of the game, you have to consider it before trusting people. And you have every right to disagree. Originally by: Viceroy Otherwise its carebearland, with our big brother GMs watching over us, and everyone mining veldspar because firing a gun MIGHT cause someone to leave the game, and we cant have that kind of harassment can we? If it ever becomes like that I'd leave too. This was not a case of corporation spying. Someone just decided at some point they could take everything without repurcussions and get away with it. Someone who you trust and have trusted for ages may just decide to do this. Because they got drunk, because they got a new corp, because they got bored of playing same things every day. I don't believe this was a case of someone setting us up. Roog --- I just thought of something funny....Your mum!
Saladin	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:28:00 - [20] Edited by: Saladin on 28/06/2004 17:29:27 It amazes me how certain corps defend corp theft as part of the game, but whine about it when it happens to them.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:46:00 - [21] Quote: I'm assuming Istvaan is your main thoguh...gets confused That it is.
Agent Shield	Posted - 2004.06.28 20:08:00 - [22] As part of the storyline, I wonder what he will say when he pops in to tell his tale? It might make for an interesting read. Agent Shield
Ryctor	Posted - 2004.06.28 20:29:00 - [23] If you canÆt afford to lose it then keep it in a personal hanger.
Sunflare	Posted - 2004.06.28 21:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Roog Hi, Well our corp became the latest of many to be taken to the cleaners by a corp thief. The theft was carried out by one of our directors and everything is gone. We had just taken posession of the tech 2 cloaking device from the Jove arc at which point our director cleared out all the corp hangers and wallet and then decided to sit and gloat about it in corp chat for 30 minutes. So he boasted about it for 30 minutes in corp chat huh? Can you tell me what is required to talk in corp chat? That's right you have to be in the CORP......hmm lets take this a little farther since he is in the corp still your ceo still has the ability to take EVERYTHING from the theifs personal hanger and leave him with nothing. Too bad you didn't think of that (or was your CEO not online?) cause it really wasn't smart of him to stay in the corp for that long.
Bohr	Posted - 2004.06.28 21:22:00 - [25] Edited by: Bohr on 28/06/2004 21:25:40 Originally by: Sunflare Originally by: Roog Hi, Well our corp became the latest of many to be taken to the cleaners by a corp thief. The theft was carried out by one of our directors and everything is gone. We had just taken posession of the tech 2 cloaking device from the Jove arc at which point our director cleared out all the corp hangers and wallet and then decided to sit and gloat about it in corp chat for 30 minutes. So he boasted about it for 30 minutes in corp chat huh? Can you tell me what is required to talk in corp chat? That's right you have to be in the CORP......hmm lets take this a little farther since he is in the corp still your ceo still has the ability to take EVERYTHING from the theifs personal hanger and leave him with nothing. Too bad you didn't think of that (or was your CEO not online?) cause it really wasn't smart of him to stay in the corp for that long. Not possible for a CEO to take items from members personal hangars. You're only able to place items there. Think a -back, is in order :P Edit: Besides he was director. Read the text before you start accusing people of stupidity.
Argent A'losonde	Posted - 2004.06.28 22:42:00 - [26] Edited by: Argent A'losonde on 28/06/2004 22:43:56 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm sorry you've been victimized, but Eve tries to simulate the real world to such an extent that crimes of trust are possible. heh. i though I was playing EVE to escape the real world :P I am all for EVE simulating many RL concepts, and I like the idea of espionage being part of the game, but in this case I have to cry foul in the name of balance. I think the extreme gains to be had by corporate theft are not balanced by the risk. I think it is bad game design to allow RL type elements without some RL like repercussions and risks. An alt corp-thief has basically no risk, and even a main char thief is hardly going to blink at being KOS to some corp or alliance when they can replace clones and ships for years on what they stole. not to mention the many powerful ethically-challenged corps out there who will harbor a corp thief. As it stands now corp theft is an oversight in game mechanics hastily and messily patched to resemble a game feature. Much like CCP writing bugs into the storyline. There is something seriously wrong when people can decide on a whim to******a whole group of "friends" and corpmates who worked hard to progress in EVE and who HAD NO CONTROL over the hangar rights their ceo may have entrusted to someone.... someone who may have truly "proved" themselves trustworthy for months and then suddenly got bored and decided to role-play an "evil" char. That is NOT espionage people. Its not a "devilishly delicious feature" on any level. I would still like to see espionage in this game, but until there are more game mechanics in place, until there are actual steps and skills involved... it boils down to convincing RL people to RL trust you and then RL betraying that trust. and to me, that emperor is naked no matter how you try to dress and justify it. and no, i am not ranting because I am a victim... it never happened to me or any corp of mine.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.06.28 23:40:00 - [27] The solution is clear. Trust no-one.
Argent A'losonde	Posted - 2004.06.29 00:03:00 - [28] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The solution is clear. Trust no-one. That may be an acceptable solution to you Istvaan... I suppose that works well for your particular chosen profession in EVE. However, I think for a large contingent of players who were drawn to EVE, the whole idea of being in a Corp, making friends, and working and fighting side-by-side with comrades appealed to us. and somehow trust is an intrinic part of that, at least for me. So that solution is not acceptable to me. Besides that, a corp model by definition is about resting authority, power, and responsiblity among a board of directors who must answer not only to their shareholders, but to very strict laws concerning their conduct. When directors are elected into office that is a vote of confidence.. of trust. In that sense Corps are a defunct institution in EVE because of the wide open vulnerability of corps to thieves. But you are right, you can trust no one in EVE because of the completely lame mechanics governing internal corp security. Corps are a mirage, its every pilot for himself.
Xadian	Posted - 2004.06.29 02:02:00 - [29] Hmm lets think of a real corporation where a board of directors hasn't completely screwed the corporation over...(cough ENRON cough) Always hit the big red button whenever you get the chance.
Valan	Posted - 2004.06.29 03:07:00 - [30] Its a sad fact of life that you cannot trust even your directors. Even though I have a senior rank in EY, my hanger access is heavily restricted. Only the founders of the corp have access to the really valuable stuff. They know each other very well in RL and all being Icelandic, I assume they know where each other live. Our corp is very close and friendships are growing, with group get togethers in RL. However, this is no excuse to relax security at all.

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