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Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.23 09:43:00 - [31] Edited by: Murina on 23/10/2008 09:43:35 Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Strill Originally by: Patri Andari Caldari range bonus gains a bit more of its meaning. Considering the lack of DPS of Caldari ships, any nerf to the range of other ships (via rig nerf or otherwise) is a good thing. Amirite? Patri Low dps of caldari ships? The raven's damage with torps is pretty darn close to a blaster mega. Where is this low dps coming from? WTB 150km torps .... you might have not noticed, but folks here are talking about fleet ranges ... 150+km ... yup.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:15:00 - [32] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Deva Blackfire Actually pulseapocs were(are?) widely used by NC. Locus rigs are also used often on beam zealots to get that 130+km range. And yes - pulse apoc hitting at 160km is a bit stupid especially with DPS it can deal with scorch (around 600 iirc - tho might be wrong here) with quite good tracking. No, i never was on recieving end of this ship but judging from whines lots of people were abusing this bug. Yeah but you need 2 ships to actually make apoc reach 160km right.... No. I exagerated range a bit - it was 150km not 160km. Still doable on a single ship. 3x TE + 3x locus + megapulse + scorch + frentix booster (improved) = 141km optimal +10km faloff = effective 150km range. Without booster it is 123+10. It's effective 145km range, to nitpick. At 150km you'd do 40-45% of your DPS (hit quality), which would be bad. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:43:00 - [33] Rigs are a joke, arent they. Of the 'x' number available, only about 5 are used regularly... Trimark CCC Core Defence Extender Core Defence Purger Poly The rest are occasionally used (like Locus rigs) but not really that much. With the stacking penalty being applied to locus rigs, and polys shortly to become useless too, that leaves 4 rigs that people will use with any regularity. And its interesting to note that those 4 rigs do not have stacking penalities applied (which IMO should not apply to rigs as they already come with built-in penalties) ---------- AKA 'Bitter Dog' Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05
Murkon Salesgirl Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:52:00 - [34] More junk on their database that nobody uses. Good one CCP.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Cpt Branko It's effective 145km range, to nitpick. At 150km you'd do 40-45% of your DPS (hit quality), which would be bad. effective range = optimal + 1x faloff (yes i know its 50% dps). Its just easiest way of comparing various turrets (like ACs, pulses and blasters) because all will deal roughly 50% dps at their "effective" range. Still it doesnt negate the fact that you hit at around 150 range for more DPS than snipers deal (around 250-300dps in faloff, 500-600 in optimal).
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:06:00 - [36] Originally by: Butter Dog Rigs are a joke, arent they. Of the 'x' number available, only about 5 are used regularly... Trimark CCC Core Defence Extender Core Defence Purger Poly EM, Termal and Kinetic shield resist rigs Auxilary nano pumps Nanobot accelerators Projectile falloff rigs These are all fequently used AND stacking penalized which kind of removes the whole point of your post. The most used rigs (the ones you mentioned) are the ones, that don't give you much of a penalty - as opposed to the weapon rigs, that punish you on the PG, the most restrictive parameter on a ship if there ever was one. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:00:00 - [37] Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Butter Dog Rigs are a joke, arent they. Of the 'x' number available, only about 5 are used regularly... Trimark CCC Core Defence Extender Core Defence Purger Poly EM, Termal and Kinetic shield resist rigs Auxilary nano pumps Nanobot accelerators Projectile falloff rigs These are all fequently used AND stacking penalized which kind of removes the whole point of your post. The most used rigs (the ones you mentioned) are the ones, that don't give you much of a penalty - as opposed to the weapon rigs, that punish you on the PG, the most restrictive parameter on a ship if there ever was one. The Shield Rigs are stacking penalized, but they are cheap, mostly uses to fill holes or get a good benifit with 3 rigs at the cost of on Extender or Plurger Rig. The Aux pumps only stack against each other not on any ship Bonus or Item atribute, same goes to Nanobots. Projektiel Falloff Rigs also only stack against each other, not with Items.
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Butter Dog Trimark CCC Core Defence Extender Core Defence Purger Poly EM, Termal and Kinetic shield resist rigs Auxilary nano pumps Nanobot accelerators Projectile falloff rigs These are all fequently used AND stacking penalized which kind of removes the whole point of your post. The most used rigs (the ones you mentioned) are the ones, that don't give you much of a penalty - as opposed to the weapon rigs, that punish you on the PG, the most restrictive parameter on a ship if there ever was one. Turret weapon rigs, apart from the locus ones, need review. Missile rigs make more sense on caldari ships where your low slots are limited, and its your primary damage, but turret ships in general have more room for setting up low slots with 1-2 damage mods and a decent buffer.. active tanking is never used in any fight over 5-10 people with equivalent sized ships, and those rigs are _in general_ just pve stuff. One drug-boosted hyperion, or maelstrom against a bunch of cruisers, ok.. but you get my point. We've been on the receiving end of pulse apocs for quite some time, and it was very obviously unbalanced compared to other battleships. Fun to fight against, sure, but unbalanced. I don't think removing this from the game is the right solution though - perhaps reconsidering the way that rigs let you customise a setup, and coming up with a way that all race bs could be modified in this way..? Perhaps with a damage penalty.. if you are setting up to shoot smaller ships, this might make sense. Look at it from a point of view of variety, and fun. The challenge for the devs is to promote variety and fun, not come up with arbitrary decisions on what is or is not "a bug" which leaves us with poorer options to customise and find individual play style. (!)
Miriyaka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:00:00 - [39] Edited by: Miriyaka on 23/10/2008 21:02:23 Unpenalized locus rigs at 15% are a small issue, but only on pulse Apocs. I don't think they'd be a problem at all unpenalized at 7.5-10% so long as their cost were increased to the 15-25m range. You could even make them stack only with the hull optimal bonuses (Apoc, Rokh, Eagle, Zealot, Moa, Ferox, Harpy, Merlin, Raptor, Enyo and all destroyers) and they'd still be quite useful for a variety of ships, but not as overpowered on hull-bonused ships. This guy has the right idea. Stop homogenizing the game so much. Do you want a fairly well-balanced rock-paper-scissors sandbox game where some ships dominate other ships but are dominated themselves by other ships, or a game where everyone flies the same ships with the same modules and rigs where combat is decided by nothing but sheer numbers?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:31:00 - [40] Originally by: Deva Blackfire No. I exagerated range a bit - it was 150km not 160km. Still doable on a single ship. 3x TE + 3x locus + megapulse + scorch + frentix booster (improved) = 141km optimal +10km faloff = effective 150km range. Without booster it is 123+10. We adding boosters now? Please, it's not like you're doing all speed, dps and range calculations of other ships in other discussions with maxed boosters as a default. Don't exaggerate to make a point, the truth is 123+10. End of story and it is not game breaking. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:38:00 - [41] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/10/2008 21:42:31 Originally by: Miriyaka This guy has the right idea. Stop homogenizing the game so much. Do you want a fairly well-balanced rock-paper-scissors sandbox game where some ships dominate other ships but are dominated themselves by other ships, or a game where everyone flies the same ships with the same modules and rigs where combat is decided by nothing but sheer numbers? No, he doesn't unstacking penalized rigs is ****ed. Completely and utterly ****ed. Stacking penalties go on attributes, explicitly to remove the problems that occur when attributes break typical bounds. Look, locus rigs are still great once they are penalized, they are the best weapon rig aside from ambit rigs in all situations, they allow for much greater range/EHP optimization than other rigs, they are dirt cheap. The thing that keeps most rigs from being used is not a lack of usefulness, but the fact that they are not price appropriately for where they are likely to be fitted.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Deva Blackfire No. I exagerated range a bit - it was 150km not 160km. Still doable on a single ship. 3x TE + 3x locus + megapulse + scorch + frentix booster (improved) = 141km optimal +10km faloff = effective 150km range. Without booster it is 123+10. So that "600" dps apoc is now shooting 9km into its 10km falloff, doing 55% of its raw DPS based on falloff alone. Given the way that hit quality decreases in falloff, your real DPS will be closer to ~45%. That Pulse-apoc is now doing 270 real dps. Less DPS than a Beam apoc, and your taking two ships and boosters to get it. Gamebreaking. The Nail in the coffin? 150km Is where fleet engagements start. Being able to scratch paint at 150km a ship of the line does not make. Amarr firing into falloff = massive fail very, very quickly.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 23/10/2008 21:42:31 Originally by: Miriyaka This guy has the right idea. Stop homogenizing the game so much. Do you want a fairly well-balanced rock-paper-scissors sandbox game where some ships dominate other ships but are dominated themselves by other ships, or a game where everyone flies the same ships with the same modules and rigs where combat is decided by nothing but sheer numbers? No, he doesn't unstacking penalized rigs is ****ed. Completely and utterly ***ed. Stacking penalties go on attributes, explicitly to remove the problems that occur when attributes break typical bounds. Look, locus rigs are still great once they are penalized, they are the best weapon rig aside from ambit rigs in all situations, they allow for much greater range/EHP optimization than other rigs, they are dirt cheap. The thing that keeps most rigs from being used is not a lack of usefulness, but the fact that they are not price appropriately for where they are likely to be fitted. Yes, I too routinely put modules on my ship that carry not only serious downsides, but are stacking nerfed against everything else on it anyways. Heres a hit Goum: locus rigs were used because they weren't stacking nerfed. Ambit rigs are used because they aren't stacking nefred (if the modules to increase their stats even existed anyways). Trimarks are used because they aren't stacking nerfed. The only* rig with stacking nerfs used in any regularity are resist rigs, and they are dirt cheap and cover resist holes. Everything else has too little impact and is stacking nerfed against the base module. There is no other way to look at it (though I'm sure you of all people will find a way). After locus rigs are nerfed, you will still seem them on a handful of ships that don't want to put out the cash for trimarks(and only then because armor resist rigs are too expensive to begin with). You see that same behavior now too. There is zero change in that situation. What you will see, is them never used on a ship with a Tracking Enhancer or Tracking computer fit. Ever. Because, you know, using rigs to enhance the ship in anything but tank is broken. Start campaigning to make trimarks stack against plates (both increase EHP!). It would be nice if you held a non-hypocritical position on this matter at least.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:58:00 - [44] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/10/2008 22:00:11 Originally by: MalVortex Originally by: Deva Blackfire No. I exagerated range a bit - it was 150km not 160km. Still doable on a single ship. 3x TE + 3x locus + megapulse + scorch + frentix booster (improved) = 141km optimal +10km faloff = effective 150km range. Without booster it is 123+10. So that "600" dps apoc is now shooting 9km into its 10km falloff, doing 55% of its raw DPS based on falloff alone. Given the way that hit quality decreases in falloff, your real DPS will be closer to ~45%. That Pulse-apoc is now doing 270 real dps. Less DPS than a Beam apoc, and your taking two ships and boosters to get it. Gamebreaking. The Nail in the coffin? 150km Is where fleet engagements start. Being able to scratch paint at 150km a ship of the line does not make. Amarr firing into falloff = massive fail very, very quickly. You are playing stupid? Or you are one IRL? Effective range is only for comparison, everyone with half a braincell knows that (well except you as you proven already). Locus rigs were supposed to be "balanced" or maybe proper word is FIXED because ALL OPTIMAL RANGE BONUSES GET STACKING PENALIZED. Capishi? I dont give **** about pulse apoc firing at 150km myself because i engage at 190-200 usually which is well outside its rach. Still bugged module is bugged - and "bug report" part of this site helps fix it. EDIT: as for stacking nerfed rigs which are used why you forgot: Aux nano pumps? Polycarbons? Aux thrusters? Istab ones (forgot name). ECM power ones (particle augmentor?). And prolly a bit more but i cba to search for them now.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:14:00 - [45] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/10/2008 22:00:11 Originally by: MalVortex Originally by: Deva Blackfire No. I exagerated range a bit - it was 150km not 160km. Still doable on a single ship. 3x TE + 3x locus + megapulse + scorch + frentix booster (improved) = 141km optimal +10km faloff = effective 150km range. Without booster it is 123+10. So that "600" dps apoc is now shooting 9km into its 10km falloff, doing 55% of its raw DPS based on falloff alone. Given the way that hit quality decreases in falloff, your real DPS will be closer to ~45%. That Pulse-apoc is now doing 270 real dps. Less DPS than a Beam apoc, and your taking two ships and boosters to get it. Gamebreaking. The Nail in the coffin? 150km Is where fleet engagements start. Being able to scratch paint at 150km a ship of the line does not make. Amarr firing into falloff = massive fail very, very quickly. You are playing stupid? Or you are one IRL? Effective range is only for comparison, everyone with half a braincell knows that (well except you as you proven already). Locus rigs were supposed to be "balanced" or maybe proper word is FIXED because ALL OPTIMAL RANGE BONUSES GET STACKING PENALIZED. Capishi? I dont give **** about pulse apoc firing at 150km myself because i engage at 190-200 usually which is well outside its rach. Still bugged module is bugged - and "bug report" part of this site helps fix it. EDIT: as for stacking nerfed rigs which are used why you forgot: Aux nano pumps? Polycarbons? Aux thrusters? Istab ones (forgot name). ECM power ones (particle augmentor?). And prolly a bit more but i cba to search for them now. Polies are not stacking nerfed with istabs and overdrives. Thats why they are used. Aux thrusters only stack against overdrives and not nano fibres (both boost speed though), thats why they also sell as cheap polies. Speed nerf is going to stacking nerf all those and you can see how pople WONT buy them for 50mill a pop after that. ECM power ones, not sure but if true definately broken. ECM doesnt need a boost like that. Malvortex is right. Generally people only use rigs that either dont stack or are dirt cheap or have no draw back at all (but those tend to be expensive)
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Polies are not stacking nerfed with istabs and overdrives. Thats why they are used. But are stacking nerfed against nanofibers. Same as locus are stacked with TE and TCs now (and not damage mods). And they are used because they are better than nanofibers thus giving bigger boost. Quote: Aux thrusters only stack against overdrives and not nano fibres (both boost speed though), thats why they also sell as cheap polies. Speed nerf is going to stacking nerf all those and you can see how pople WONT buy them for 50mill a pop after that. Aux thrusters are cheap polies because their effect is worse than overdrive. Thus best thing to use for rig is poly (better than module) and for modules overdrive (better than aux thruster). And here you go - this combo gives biggest speed boost - and this is ONLY why it is so abused. As for "post nerf" - no they are not stacked with each other. Inertia still stacks only with inertia, speed only with speed (at least it was around week ago when ichecked them on sisi). Polys will stack with everything ONLY because they give boost to both attributes. Thing to remember - its attribute boosts which stack not modules. Quote: ECM power ones, not sure but if true definately broken. ECM doesnt need a boost like that. Malvortex is right. Generally people only use rigs that either dont stack or are dirt cheap or have no draw back at all (but those tend to be expensive) Its true but i already shown some of "stacking penalized" rigs which are used.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.23 23:44:00 - [47] Originally by: MalVortex Yes, I too routinely put modules on my ship that carry not only serious downsides, but are stacking nerfed against everything else on it anyways. Heres a hit Goum: locus rigs were used because they weren't stacking nerfed. Ambit rigs are used because they aren't stacking nefred (if the modules to increase their stats even existed anyways). Yes, i routinely balance games by allowing stacking attribute bonuses to break the system by advancing those attributes beyond the point where the system can handle them! Quote: The only rig with stacking nerfs used in any regularity are resist rigs, and they are dirt cheap and cover resist holes. And there you have the crux of your mistake. They are used because they are CHEAP. The problem is not typically the costs of the module in terms of penalties[which are stacking penalized as well], or bonuses[Hit points boosts are stacking penalized by the way, you're 100% dead wrong on that, i suggest getting on TQ and fitting some and checking the expected and received amounts] Quote: After locus rigs are nerfed, you will still seem them on a handful of ships that don't want to put out the cash for trimarks(and only then because armor resist rigs are too expensive to begin with). Actually no, you won't because the low slot mod >>> than the rig mod. You will see them on pretty much every rigged sniper that can afford the PG hit, which is most of them when you have decent skills. Trimarks are expensive and the first is worth less than the third stack of an eanm, let alone a plate or first or second stack. This means that pretty much ALL snipers gain using locus rigs instead of tracking enhancers or computers.[again, for the most part, LSE > CDFE]. The only reason such fits are not commonplace is because you can take the unstacking penalized bonuses and produce ridiculous ****
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.24 02:52:00 - [48] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 24/10/2008 02:52:13 It's supposed to be a sniper ship, so even if you fit beams, how do you engage ecm at 200+ km? You can get your targeting to 200+ or your range to 200+, but not both... I don't understand.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.24 02:54:00 - [49] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/10/2008 02:54:04 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Cpt Branko It's effective 145km range, to nitpick. At 150km you'd do 40-45% of your DPS (hit quality), which would be bad. effective range = optimal + 1x faloff (yes i know its 50% dps). Actually, nitpicking again, but it's about 39% DPS (hit quality degradation). So I'd really consider optimal + 1/2 falloff effective range, or maybe optimal + 2/3 falloff. It is a minor point for the example you mentioned, of course. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.24 04:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Cpt Branko boosting gank is a good thing Boost gank! ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change
Slab Drinklots	Posted - 2008.10.24 11:36:00 - [51] Idiots, you nerf something thats not in need of a nerf... These rigs already have a serious drawback in that they increase PG needs. While this is nowhere near the speed nerf (ie, lets make EvE boring nerf) its quite far up the scale...
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Slab Drinklots Idiots, you nerf something thats not in need of a nerf... These rigs already have a serious drawback in that they increase PG needs. While this is nowhere near the speed nerf (ie, lets make EvE boring nerf) its quite far up the scale... They did screw with a few fits tbh, like the range of certain "short" range weapon systems being pushed to much higher ranges.

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