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Some mission statisticks (or is looting 'worth it' ) ?

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Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:35:00 - [1] I'll cut the long introduction and get straight down to numbers. Is looting worth it? Has been question in my mind for quite while now. So I have collected data and calculated it for myself. Obviously numbers are highly dependant on playstyle and available equipment so to put thing into perspective I dual account. For missionrunning I use either pair of cruise Golems or pair of cruise CNR's (depending on missions) and for looting I use dedicated Golem (salvage rigs and hardwire). Pilots have good skills and setups are 'gank' style. Looting is done with only 1 account while another sits idle while it happens. Agent is L4Q17 @ sec 0.6, netting max 7965 LP per top missions. Looting has been selective (worlds collide, gone berzek, damsel in distress, right hand of zazz, attack of drones) looting only listed missions. I like to believe that my numbers are as good as it gets or very close to it. If there is something netting better results then eventually I will find it and switch to it. Some personal statistiks for level 4 missions I have done 62 missions and looted 13 of them. Those 62 missions have resulted in 406.3 mil in isk rewards (bounties + mission rewards) and in 270k of LP. 13 missions looted have resulted in 25600 m3 of loot. Time spent for all that has been 106 minutes for looting, 65 minutes for traveling into and from looting location, 501 minutes in actual missionrunning (in mission deadspace) time and 250 minutes spent traveling to and from mission location. Ammo spent has been 17 000 shots. So - averaged over time this means I get ~9000 m3/h loot for looting ~21700 LP/h for missionrunning ~32.5 mil/h for missionrunning Assuming LP price of 1200 isk/LP missionrunning would yield ~58.5 mil/h. So is looting 'worth it'? From isk/h perspective it is if you get 6500 isk/m3 from your loot or more. According to EVE-Meep contents of testloot container is worth 147 mil, however approx 2/3rd of items have zero value in there so lets double that estimate up to approx 300 mil, netting us approximate value of ~10 000 isk/m3. So the answer ? It is worth it for me the way I do it.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:47:00 - [2] Edited by: Tiirae on 23/10/2008 11:48:58 Your ISK/LP figure is lowball. With a bit of research you can do way better than that. Around 2000isk/lp for faction ammo and 2700isk/lp for stuff like republic fleet overdrives. getting the tags can be an ordeal but I keep a lot of buy orders around various regions and farm the faction navy missions as much as I can. I know of people who get even more isk/lp than that but they won't tell me how :( I've started grinding sisters of eve missions, the faction probe launchers you can get from them net me about 2900 isk/lp and you don't need tags at all. When you factor those numbers in, I don't think loot/salvage is a good use of time. I don't blitz missions, but I don't loot or salvage. I can get through most missions in 30 to 40 minutes with one ship, then I move onto the next. Your LP per mission seems very high but you've probably got more skills or implants than I do. With a L4Q19 agent in a 0.5 system (Emolgranlan, minmatar, republic fleet agent) I max out at 6800 or so per mission.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:55:00 - [3] That isk/h figure is average. Peaks can be ofc higher it's just that I do not have luxury of being too picky about missions where I run them. In my experience approx 1200 isk/LP is something I can reliably cash on the LP amounts I operate. I have done excel sheet where I just enter current jita tag prices and prices of 'stuff' in contracts and it calculates me best lp/isk conversion. Problem with faction ammo is, that I can't shift those amounts of LP thru that in reliable manner.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:06:00 - [4] lol that's certainly very quick. I flogged 655,000 units of republic fleet EMP L in jita in a few days last week. At about 995 isk per unit, that's more than 2200 isk per lp. I would consider that the minimum; if you are getting less than that for your LPs then you are robbing yourself. A more patient man would sell them in mission hubs instead for 1400 isk per unit, making even more.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Tiirae lol that's certainly very quick. I flogged 655,000 units of republic fleet EMP L in jita in a few days last week. At about 995 isk per unit, that's more than 2200 isk per lp. I would consider that the minimum; if you are getting less than that for your LPs then you are robbing yourself. A more patient man would sell them in mission hubs instead for 1400 isk per unit, making even more. Hm. Thats quite good volume. Worth taking second look at ammunition then. Altho I myself operate in missiles ofc as I run for caldary.
Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2008.10.23 17:26:00 - [6] CN missiles are a hard way to go to get money for your Lp's. Cost of CN Cataclysm will be the LP + 930Isk (840 + cost of reg Cataclysm missile @90 = 930). CN Catalysm sell for a low of 1600 to 1900+ ea, so your LP's will net you meh 900 to 1100 per missile. You can save yourself a lot of grief by just buying some Connections skillbooks and getting the 1k Isk per LP that way. I find that unless I get 2200+ for an LP, the hassle is not worth it. Take the CNR for example. 600k lps + a Raven (85M) and a nexus chip. They sell for 380M in the Citadel and Jita, so you get less than 500Isk per LP. Why people are doing this is beyond me, but a lot are and that's why CNR's are so cheap. I loot and salvage all missions, as I'm set up with a trade alt to monitor loot sales at a trade hub. I've also got a mining/production alt to mine the occasional hard to find mission ore and reprocess junk modules. Blazing thru missions w/o looting/salvaging may be equal to or more profitable, but I just can't see ignoring that source of income. Seems that the tradeoff is the hassle of looting/salvaging/selling loot to the boredom of mission after mission after mission ad infinitum.....
Dracthera	Posted - 2008.10.23 17:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Ghengis Tia CN missiles are a hard way to go to get money for your Lp's. Cost of CN Cataclysm will be the LP + 930Isk (840 + cost of reg Cataclysm missile @90 = 930). I agree with you. You end up making a 2M or so profit for every batch of 5000 missiles, and it uses up 3000+ LP. You can farm AE for example over the course of a week, and make roughly 300M in loot and salvage without using up LPs. For me, using my LPs to purchase CN ammo that I can actually use during a missions to speed things up makes more sense in terms of ISK/hour overall.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:41:00 - [8] You're denying yourself a lot of ISK if you don't salvage.....
Notleh Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:53:00 - [9] Edited by: Notleh on 23/10/2008 22:54:08 Carniflex, very nice post mate. 4 stars. My question is how do you get nearly 8k LP for a lvl4 Mission?
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:59:00 - [10] Your loot&salvage times seem inordinately high. Care to repeat the experience looting and salvaging ONLY large wrecks? The lion's share of valuable loot is in BS wrecks, and they give a far better salvage/minute payout than the small fry. If that weren't the case we'd all be farming and salvaging L3s. If you are flying a golem might as well tractor and process BS wrecks of opportunity. That's probably the optimal pay/minute.

Dracthera	Posted - 2008.10.23 23:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Carniflex So is looting 'worth it'? From isk/h perspective it is if you get 6500 isk/m3 from your loot or more. According to EVE-Meep contents of testloot container is worth 147 mil, however approx 2/3rd of items have zero value in there so lets double that estimate up to approx 300 mil, netting us approximate value of ~10 000 isk/m3. Nice analysis. My numbers are very similar. I average about 14,000 ISK/m3 in loot and salvage, and that doesn't even include the named modules and implants I pick up during missions. My ISK/hour is lower because I'm still in a Drake for a few more days, but still not bad.
Zo5o Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.10.23 23:57:00 - [12] Edited by: Zo5o on 24/10/2008 00:05:25 Quote: cruise Quote: good as it gets DOES NOT COMPUTE. I've read where you've posted that you complete Gone Berserk in around 8 minutes with two cruiseboats. My Kronos completes it in around 8 minutes solo. Quote: If there is something netting better results then eventually I will find it and switch to it. A good start would be ditching the subpar dps of cruises.
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.24 03:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Zo5o HOWEVER, if you pay for gametime with isk-funded GTCs, you need to ask yourself, is that second account earning an additional 500-600m every two months or not? If not, it's not worth it. Yes and no. The SP the second account accumulates has value (doubly so with the ghost training nerf). The second account can also copy prints, add manufacturing pipelines, eventually crank out datacores... Alts are expensive, but in the very long term view they are not a bad investment. Expecting them to pay off from day 1 may be a bit short sighted. I'm just a marauders skillbook short of a Kronos myself. Tried one on Sisi, and it didn't impress me at all. Maybe that's because I only have large blaster spec and no rail skills...
Zo5o Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.10.24 03:48:00 - [14] Quote: Maybe that's because I only have large blaster spec and no rail skills... Yeah she's a railboat first and foremost in missions... spec skills help, as does 10% extra dps from hybrid hardwirings...
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.24 07:44:00 - [15] To address some comments (1) How do I get ~8 kLP for topmost missions ? I have social skills trained for relevant agent. Altho it's not assosiated with that question I do also have small pile of characters who can use that agent for the situations when I get 2x low sec in row or something other I'm unwilling to do. I usually just take 2 missions (1 with main and another with alt), undock and do them both (to minimize travel time). Turn them in and repeat. 'Fishing' for only good missions is option, but only if I would run only 2 or 3 missions per day. I on average do 4 - 5 missions per hour (if you include really short ones like recon series). (2) Loot / salvage times are a bit on high side. Would it not be better to just grab BS ones on the fly when in Golem? I have considered it, however it's a bit unsuitable for my missionrunning style. I need usually all 12 locking slots for NPC's. Also lack of salvage rigs is will make salvage process relatively long. Especially with only one salvager (need at least one utilisy slot for auto targeter for extra targets, siganl amp is not an option as I have 4x BCU's). It does not help either that when I'm in combat phase of mission wrecks are not in my overwiew to minimize mislock incidents. (3) Cruise + Golem and 'as good as it gets' does not compute! I have tried both torpedo CNR (officer/faction fitted + T2 launchers) and torp golem (faction fit + T2 launchers) and I must say they are awesome ships. For solo mission running. However when dual accounting it's not humanly possible to control 2 sutch beasts in effective manner. It would be ofc possibility to load 'other' ship with just FoF and forget about it however that is also not effective option in most missions bcos of all those threatening high hp structures that tend to attract FoF missiles with the 'evil look' they have. Second side is that I run missions in Forge, where approx 1/3 of missions have targets well outside torpedo engagement range. When taking that into account average missionrunning speed would be approx the same as with cruise missiles in this location. I have looked (but not actually tested) at Nightmare and I'm pretty confident that it will outperform CNR/Golem in drone/blood and sansha missions, however I'm unconvinced that it would offer me as good average mission completion time in Forge as CNR / Golem does. Same goes for Kronos/Paladin - I'm sure there is several missions where they outperform ravenkind, I'm not so convinced tho that they would offer as good average mission completion time over the whole mission pool offered in the Forge. That out of the way, I'm not hell bent on 'superiority' of my current setup. Show me some numbers and if they are better than mine you can bet on me wading towards that solution real fast in my skillplan. (4) Is second account for missionrunning 'worth it' when running it on isk-for-GTC ? It is worth it for me. My 'red line' runs at approx 1.1 - 1.2 bil per 60d GTC. Note however that this number is function of your gametime. With current prices 'break even' point for me is approx 6 - 7 hours of missionrunning per week (where having alt present will offer me more isk than saving the cost of that GTC and running them solo instead). Take those numbers with big grain of salt ofc - it's not possible to give any general rules of thumb for that kind of stuff as there is way too many variables in there. Now, is it worth for me in the frame of real life time vs game time then answer is ofc no. It's a lot more effective to do some real work and buy the GTC with real money - I just have principle of not paying for more than one account with RL money bcos my addiction is bad enough as it is - it kinda puts the stopper on some ambitions. Without it I would prolly sit on 12 accounts and lack any kind of real life .
Jackie Fisher Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2008.10.24 08:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Tiirae I flogged 655,000 units of republic fleet EMP L in jita in a few days last week. At about 995 isk per unit, that's more than 2200 isk per lp. I would consider that the minimum; if you are getting less than that for your LPs then you are robbing yourself. Really? Isn't the offer for Republic Fleet EMP L 2400 LPs for 5000 + 2.4 mil ISK + 5000 rounds EMP L? Not sure how that works out at anywhere near 2200 ISK per LP.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:39:00 - [17] If youre running pirate agents then hell yes salvaging is a must... works best thos when you get a noob in youre corp to salvage and loot for ya lol.. treat said loot monkey well and ya get rich... on my old chr Ogdru Jahad I had a loot monkey. i would let him keep all salvage and loot but i got pick of certain wrecks 1st IE important story line npc's that drop 200m isk implants and all tags... I would how ever let him keep the odd mission of tags so him self. like if i had 4 police invasions with minmatar i would let him keep the tags from one of them... he made a killing on salvage tho.. I would end up with some 500m isk at the nd of the week thanks to him ONTOP of mission payouts and bounties that i shared with him... so yeah salvage if doing 0.0 missions is a must for decent income.
Fennicus Amarr Shoot To Thrill	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:29:00 - [18] Edited by: Fennicus on 24/10/2008 12:33:33 Quote: 13 missions looted have resulted in 25600 m3 of loot There is something wrong with this number. 25,600m3 is an average of ~2,000m3 per mission. I think I've come across one mission (Attack of the Drones) where you can expect to get about 1,500 m3, whilst the rest are well under 1k. Even if you include scrap metal, which does have a high volume, I can't see how you get this number as an average, you must be getting something like 4k m3 worth of scrap per mercenary mission or something. I think you need to factor this out, or seriously look again at your numbers. Especially if EVE-Meep isn't counting the cost of scrap or something else equally high-volume and worthless, then your inflation to "10k isk/m3" number is incorrect. Or are you reprocessing a lot of the items and thus gaining mineral volume (i.e. reprocessing a 5 m3 item typically results in much more than 5 m3 of minerals) but still calculating the cost from the items?
Zo5o Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.10.24 15:09:00 - [19] Edited by: Zo5o on 24/10/2008 15:13:54 Quote: I have looked (but not actually tested) at Nightmare and I'm pretty confident that it will outperform CNR/Golem in drone/blood and sansha missions, however I'm unconvinced that it would offer me as good average mission completion time in Forge as CNR / Golem does. Same goes for Kronos/Paladin - I'm sure there is several missions where they outperform ravenkind, I'm not so convinced tho that they would offer as good average mission completion time over the whole mission pool offered in the Forge. Well yeah. If you want to maximize your efficiency you need to be able to fly several ships in l4's, and determine the best ship or combination of ships on a mission-by-mission basis. I'm willing to bet a 900-1000 dps rail kronos will outperform a cruiseboat in at least most Guristas missions though. You just can't get those kind of dps numbers with cruises unless you throw billions at the setup.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.24 18:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Fennicus Edited by: Fennicus on 24/10/2008 12:33:33 Quote: 13 missions looted have resulted in 25600 m3 of loot There is something wrong with this number. 25,600m3 is an average of ~2,000m3 per mission. I think I've come across one mission (Attack of the Drones) where you can expect to get about 1,500 m3, whilst the rest are well under 1k. Nah. It seems okay to me. I loot in a Golem with 3,500m3 of cargo and nearly every mission half fills it. The Extravaganzas and Gone Beserk sometimes don't even quite fit. 2,000 average is not unreasonable. Maybe a little on the high-side of likely but I have no problems with it. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.

Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2008.10.24 18:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Notleh Edited by: Notleh on 23/10/2008 22:54:08 Carniflex, very nice post mate. 4 stars. My question is how do you get nearly 8k LP for a lvl4 Mission? With the two relevant Connections skills to IV, you get an increase of 40% LP's per mission. Add a few other relevant social skills and a high quality agent, 8000 LP's for a good mission sounds about right....
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.24 20:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Carniflex 2x golem angel extravaganza (no bonus) - 30 min attack of the drones - 9 min damsel in distress - 9 min duo of death - 3 min gone berzek - 8 min gurista extravaganza (with bonus) - 33 min infiltrated outpost - 12 min intercept the saboteurs - 9 min pirate invasion (sansha) - 10 min recon 1 of 3 - 8 min right hand of zazz - 4 min shipyard theft (blood) - 15 min silence the informant - 15 min the assault - 20 min the rogue slave trader 1 of 2 - 2 min the rogue slave trader 2 of 2 - 8 min the score - 16 min vegenance(guristas) - 15 min worlds collide (gur-serp) - 23 min I see similar times with a raven + Paladin/dominix duo, a bit worse on the guristas missions. as domi isn't quite fully skilled and does less damage than a raven, and paladin ends up doing less after resists. my raven pilot is maruaders 1 away from a golem, but with 6 wars active except for my last recon 1 of 3, it expired oh well, killed the whole first pocket 6 or 7 times, and it did good things for my sec status, got like 20 425mm railguns
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.25 09:55:00 - [23] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Fennicus Edited by: Fennicus on 24/10/2008 12:33:33 Quote: 13 missions looted have resulted in 25600 m3 of loot There is something wrong with this number. 25,600m3 is an average of ~2,000m3 per mission. I think I've come across one mission (Attack of the Drones) where you can expect to get about 1,500 m3, whilst the rest are well under 1k. Nah. It seems okay to me. I loot in a Golem with 3,500m3 of cargo and nearly every mission half fills it. The Extravaganzas and Gone Beserk sometimes don't even quite fit. 2,000 average is not unreasonable. Maybe a little on the high-side of likely but I have no problems with it. It was selective looting - ie looting only 'good' missions as with my missionruunning speed it's not worth even considering looting everything (like 'massive attack' and 'the score' kind of missions). Infilitrated outpost and pirate invasion were looted once to see if they would be worth it. They were not. Missions I looted were following attack of the drones - 1306 m3 damsel in distress - 2038 m3 infiltrated outpost - 1175 m3 pirate invasion - 1008 m3 worlds collide - 2359 m3 damsel in distress - 2539 m3 damsel in distress - 2539 m3 attack of the drones - 1577 m3 worlds collide - 2518 m3 damsel in distress - 2537 m3 gone berzek - 2539 m3 gone berzek - 2522 m3 right hand of zazzamass - 965 m3 Note, that my looting golem has cargo bay of 2539 m3 (as I have signal amp to be able to lock 12 targets), so if that number is met I just abandom surpulus (usually in the form of scrap metal and x800 charges). Numbers in there represent everything, salvage, scrap metal if cargo is not full and capacitor charges.


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