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Bimjo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:35:00 - [1] Obviously main role is POS bashing,but are there certain subtle differences that makes one dread better than another ? thanks
Dark Soldat Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:37:00 - [2] as far as i see the phoenix is bad in the way that the missiles are underpowered compared to capital turrets the naglfar requires twice as much time to train up its weapon systems because it makes use of 2 capital matar and 2 missile launchers
Bimjo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:38:00 - [3] cheers DS,so what about the moros and rev ? and if you could choose,which of the 4 would you train for ?
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:39:00 - [4] Yes. The pilot.
Leobon Gallente Angeli Iustitiorum	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:46:00 - [5] The Rev is great for both POS bashing and anti-capitol work. The Moros is ok but people seem to tank kinetic and thermal damage the most.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:46:00 - [6] Phoenix - awesome against POS (pick the resists hole) and other dreads (no smartbombs), HORRIBLE against other caps (citadel torp low hitpoints + smartbombs = LOL no damage) Moros - decent...ish against POS and also most ships thanks to the great drone bonus, probably best overall but not best at anything in particular Revelation - cap lasers = awesome. With regular T1 crystals, you need no ammo, but then again, you need strontium anyway, so it kind of evens out. Pretty good against POSes, the best dread against those with EM/thermal resists holes for sure. Naglsomething - freaking vertical. But other than that, not much to say, and needing to skill up two different weapon systems is meh. Just be aware of what your chosen dread is good for, and don't try to use it for something it's not good for... you'll be fine with whichever you chose _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Bimjo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:48:00 - [7] thanks to all those mature enough to help me in this decision
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:49:00 - [8] Basically the nag is inferior, phoenix is more selectively useful and moros and rev are pretty awesome. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Akita T on 31/10/2008 11:54:02 Personally, my alt is almost ready (in case I want to go to caps some day, but I doubt it will be any time soon) for both Phoenix and Revelation. Also, Amarr and Caldari carriers are both awesome. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Bimjo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:52:00 - [10] I am going for rev and phoenix already have most the support skills,and revelation skill too,so just need to find caldari dread skillbook
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:09:00 - [11] After extensive POS work I have to say the Phoenix is decent. However, no ammo makes me jealous... Go Revelation. Also if your gonna dual or triple box (or more?) dread accounts not have to reactive weapons makes the rev the obvious choice. Gore "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus

CCP Ytterbium	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Phoenix - awesome against POS (pick the resists hole) and other dreads (no smartbombs), HORRIBLE against other caps (citadel torp low hitpoints + smartbombs = LOL no damage) Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. That is all, you may resume your discussion. Nothing to see here, these are not the devs you were looking for .

Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:32:00 - [13] Phoenixis cool. The Amarr one is also nice. But as stated, depends on its use. And it seems citadel torps are getting a needed bonus, so that makes Phoenix ever better ;)
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:33:00 - [14] Edited by: Ishina Fel on 31/10/2008 12:33:41 What helpful Mr. Ytterbium forgot to mention, though, is the fact that even a webbed dread can still reduce citadel torpedo damage by 50% by "speed tanking" at 10 m/s with the upcoming missile formula... so yeah. Phoenix is still not suited for hitting anything other than POSes, unfortunately. EDIT: Well, and sieged dreads, I guess...
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:43:00 - [15] Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. That is all, you may resume your discussion. Nothing to see here, these are not the devs you were looking for . Yeah, and any moving capital can speedtank it, thanks to the new missile formula. 90% Damageredaction @ 65 m/s. So back to square zero.
Tuncan Minmatar Arbitrary Freedom	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:46:00 - [16] moving dread? no siege mod lol damage,who cares if it tanks ur missiles just ignore it.
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:47:00 - [17] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 31/10/2008 12:47:38 Originally by: Karl Luckner Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. That is all, you may resume your discussion. Nothing to see here, these are not the devs you were looking for . Yeah, and any moving capital can speedtank it, thanks to the new missile formula. 90% Damageredaction @ 65 m/s. So back to square zero. Truly? That seems like it need a bit of tweeking... Tho the sige mod mentioned helps, but not for other capitals.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:51:00 - [18] Hmz that's definitely interesting..it looks like the citadel torps need a bigger fix after all. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Tuncan moving dread? no siege mod lol damage,who cares if it tanks ur missiles just ignore it. It's not only about dreads, it's also about carriers, motherships, titans, rorquals, battleships and freighters. (Yes, i've seen a dread shoot a freighter before )
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.31 13:24:00 - [20] Citadel torps brring a whole new meaning to 'missle lag'. They are ok (not great, but not bad) for POS', but they are awful for cap to cap warfare. And since dreads are the new BB, the speed of Citadel Torps limits the ships use. We see Dreads fitted with Sensor Boosters and 'sniper fitted' - the Pheonix is just a meat shield in these engadgments. -----------
fivetide humidyear Gallente EXCESS10N	Posted - 2008.10.31 13:46:00 - [21] any dread other than the naglfar is the correct dread(tm)
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.10.31 13:53:00 - [22] Personnaly i love flying the revelation, god knows how much dps i didnt put at a pos simply because i forgot to reactivate guns when browsing the forums. But also in large capfights which unfortunately usually are very laggy, not having to reload which is a pita in lag safes you alot of frustration. I advise against citadel using dreads, its not fun not only having to deal with reloading in capital fights when its laggy, or smartbombs - but also to see plenty of your torps crawling towards an enemie only to disappear when the target has died before the torps arrive. The main reason i dont fly the phoenix anymore. - Boosters and PirateProfessions
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.31 13:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Karl Luckner Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Originally by: Akita T Phoenix - awesome against POS and other dreads, HORRIBLE against other caps Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. Yeah, and any moving capital can speedtank it, thanks to the new missile formula. 90% Damageredaction @ 65 m/s. So back to square zero. I stand by my original assesment, but for different reasons post-patch _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.31 15:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Dark Soldat the naglfar requires twice as much time to train up its weapon systems because it makes use of 2 capital matar and 2 missile launchers Technically, the Moros is a split-weapon dread as well; it has a bonus to both capital hybrid turrets and drones. The absolute minimum requirements for the second weapon system are much lower of course, but to really get the most use out of a Moros, especially when shooting sub-capital targets, you need to have very good drone skills. Drone Interfacing V, Heavy Drones V and Sentry Drones V take about three months combined to train, and that's not including T2 lights/mediums and loads of support skills. Mind you, the benefit of the split-weapon system training on the Moros is that drones are useful on just about any platform, whereas capital weapons are only useful on capital ships, so it rather balances out. Back on topic, I would have to agree with the poster esrlier in the thread who said that the Moros is the most flexible dread but isn't the best at any one thing. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.31 15:42:00 - [25] Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Originally by: Akita T Phoenix - awesome against POS (pick the resists hole) and other dreads (no smartbombs), HORRIBLE against other caps (citadel torp low hitpoints + smartbombs = LOL no damage) Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. That is all, you may resume your discussion. Nothing to see here, these are not the devs you were looking for . now if only they werent so slow... (pokes ccp to make cap. cruise launchers) EVE history Missiles post-nerf
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.31 15:43:00 - [26] just fly a revelation, lasers are pure win! --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
Reptar Dragon THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.31 16:02:00 - [27] Moros does some pretty decent drone damage because of it's bonus which makes it pretty good for anti-support. Hurts pretty bad actually. Rev is the best for POS knocking. Phoenix is great for wasting your time (nice volley damage though). Naglfar actually does pretty good damage but it's got mixed high slots so you gotta train double and pay double attention.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.10.31 16:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Karl Luckner Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. That is all, you may resume your discussion. Nothing to see here, these are not the devs you were looking for . Yeah, and any moving capital can speedtank it, thanks to the new missile formula. 90% Damageredaction @ 65 m/s. So back to square zero. Well, in a close range fight (20-40km), that also enough speed to speed tank a gun dread in siege mod. And long range cap fights aren't that common. ------------------------------------------
Asestorian Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.31 17:43:00 - [29] Just wanted to pop in and say... cough The Correct DreadÖ --- Originally by: CCP Atropos Destiny Balls
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.31 20:50:00 - [30] Honestly, between the Rev and the Moros, I'd pick whichever race you like to have BS V in. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.01 02:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Akita T Phoenix - awesome against POS (pick the resists hole) and other dreads (no smartbombs), HORRIBLE against other caps (citadel torp low hitpoints + smartbombs = LOL no damage) citadel torp hp is apperantly about to be buffed twice, straight out hp boost (heard from dev in F&ID forum) and looks like weapon linking will also boost it. Might make it very nice but it's not a safe bet and even then it's not gonna be much stronger than the others. I'd say go for either rev or moros whichever one u want bs 5 in if u havn't already got bs 5. Stay away from naglfar it's hardest to train for suffers the citadel torp HP problem and has poor dps/tank. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Gabriel Virtus Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.01 03:05:00 - [32] the Naglfar obviously...Its F R E A K I N G V E R T I C A L :) .... but anyway, I think it is pretty obvious that the moros or rev are your only real options. Flame on -GV
Cruel Intent Caldari Fairlight Corp	Posted - 2008.11.01 13:57:00 - [33] Moros at max skill with sentry drones not only does massive DPS, but has the added defense ability from pesky tacklers.
Mag's MASS	Posted - 2008.11.01 15:13:00 - [34] Moros is pretty uber. Although as far as looks go, I love the Naglfar. Mag's Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
steveid Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.11.01 17:46:00 - [35] Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Originally by: Akita T Phoenix - awesome against POS (pick the resists hole) and other dreads (no smartbombs), HORRIBLE against other caps (citadel torp low hitpoints + smartbombs = LOL no damage) Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. That is all, you may resume your discussion. Nothing to see here, these are not the devs you were looking for . /thread tbh ccp, but thanks for the heads up!
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2008.11.01 20:55:00 - [36] Edited by: Rajere on 01/11/2008 20:55:49 I was originally training for the Nag, and decided I didn't want to go vertical and wanted a real dread instead, so I got a Revelation. After having it for a while and using it in various situations, I have to say, The Revelation is good for 3 things: 1. Shooting a POS /yawn 2. Shooting helpless, tackled caps ie hotdropping 3. Moving large quantities of stuff that fits in Giant secure cans with 8x Cargo Expander II's in the lows (~50,300m3 cargo) Of the above, the Revelation is only the best dread for #3. For #2, any gank fit dread will do, and actually the Nag can pull off some hardcore gank fits. For #1, the Rev can be the best dread, but only if there's so much lag it takes 15minutes to reload your weapons or deactivate a mod (flown a phoenix before as well in those kinds of situations, omgsux). Being the best ship in situations I never actually want to be in isn't really that appealing. Oh and, since you're as likely to be primaried, popped, podded and back in your medical station before you even realize you were taking fire, and even if you did you couldn't do anything about anyway. With module lag, you're not going to be able to activate stuff in time for it to matter, half the time lag will leave you either stuck in or stuck out of siege, depending on what mode you don't want to be in. Also, everyone knows the Revelation is dealing the most dmg in those situations since nobody else is really firing, so you are the biggest threat, ie you went from last ship to be primaried to first ship to be primaried based on how many caps your enemy brought to gank your caps. If I could change Dreads right now, Without a doubt the Moros would be "The Correct Dread" and I would train straight to Dread V. -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.01 22:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Akita T Phoenix - awesome against POS (pick the resists hole) and other dreads (no smartbombs), HORRIBLE against other caps (citadel torp low hitpoints + smartbombs = LOL no damage) This is not entirely correct. I probably have some of the most extensive anti-capital experience in the game with a dread (even though it came in less than a week lol) as I've helped destroy about 50 enemy capitals with one. And the simple, cold truth is that in combat of this type, a phoenix is basically useless and the naglifar is half useless. In the naggy's case, it wasn't good even to start with so this makes it even worse. Reason is simple. As noted people have said that citadels can be smartbombed. This means that in a capital engagement, it's a waste of time usually to fire them. Why? When an enemy fleet warps in, or cynos in, they are generally very close to each other. Carriers and dreads mixed together in a blob. If the carriers start smartbombing to attempt to kill enemy fighters, the chances are pretty good that any citadels launched at them won't hit the target because smartbombing carriers will take them out on the way there. Now as Ytterbium has noted: Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Just wanted to comment a bit on that. Citadel torpedoes hitpoints should be changed from 650 to 1920 as part of the Speed Balance and Weapon Grouping changes, so smartbombs should be less of an issue in this kind of situation. That is all, you may resume your discussion. Nothing to see here, these are not the devs you were looking for . This brings me to issue No. 2, which is simple. Citadels are also useless because they have another factor that makes them usually a non-factor in this kind of combat: They are extremely slow. What this means is that if the engagement range is greater than about 40km, max, it's VERY difficult to do hit anything with a citadel. The reason is simple. When the engagement is started, a primary and secondary target is called (only 2 targets in siege remember) and everyone opens up on the primary. If the target is more than the distance I've said (actually if it's more than about 15-20km) he'll be down even before the first citadel arrives. As a counter to this the common tactic is to have citadel users engage the secondary, in hopes of causing damage. If they're past this range though, usually the primary and secondary are both down before a single weapon hits the target. We have at times started calling primary targets only for citadel torpedoes but due to TS spies this is problematic because it alerts them well ahead of time that they are going to be engaged, and they tend to drop siege, get remote repped, or warp off if they can - again meaning that these weapons are mostly useless. To show you what I mean, in the battles this week, I think I fired about 90 citadel torpedoes (seems like there should be more, but lag jamming of weapons and overall lag made it far less). Checking my logs, I hit people with about 10-15 of them. 4 of those were on Shrike, who conveniently was 37km from me when I jumped in, and alone (no smartbombing carriers). All others failed to hit a target. My CEO flies a Phoenix. I asked him about his experience in the fight, he said that he felt useless as he was doing no damage. The only reason he stayed in the fight was that he has excellent gang skills and was in a leadership position and felt that he couldn't leave because of that. When the speed of the torpedo is slower than a slow MWD BS, this is a problem. In order to restore the imbalance caused by this we badly need capital cruise launchers - less damage, smartbomb resistant, and most importantly, fast. 2 out of 3 fights this week were at 70km+, and citadels don't cut it. Pure and simple. As for what dread to get, revelation is best, followed by moros as they don't have these problems. Just expect to be primary because of that.
Mo adib	Posted - 2008.11.01 22:17:00 - [38] Rev or Moros, if I was starting from scratch I wouldnt even consider training anything else. If I was gonna have to cross train to get either of those I would choose the rev, but the moros is awesome to. as with all dreads though dont just get skills to 3/4 and call it a day with the moros, u really should have dread 5, capital hybrid 5, drone interfacing 5, sentry drone 5 and with the Rev you should have Dread 5, and capital laser 5. these ships are incredible performers if you spend the time to max em out.
Presidio Hug Nutz	Posted - 2008.11.01 23:12:00 - [39] One thing to keep in mind is both Phoenix and Nag don't use cap for damage. This can be useful if you need to jump out in a middle of a fight (refuel with stront anyone?). If you're primary-ed in a fleet battle you'll probably go down though before you're out of siege mode anyways. But in rare cases not using cap to fire can be beneficial. -
Cruel Intent Caldari Fairlight Corp	Posted - 2008.11.02 00:04:00 - [40] true, but armour tanking has always dominated over shield tanking. Cap stability can be mantained through the mid slots, shield tankers use those slots for tanking. Although a nice armour tank sacrifises DPS which shield tankers can use low slots for. I don't know whether I argued for or against the Moros there, but the point is I argued
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.11.02 01:28:00 - [41] CCp should just halve the citatel flight time and double the speed. Come one, not that hard. Phoenix has the potential to be the best dread at long range engagements... if was not the act that its strontium will end before the torp hits the target :P ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.02 13:53:00 - [42] Citadel Cruise Launcers - with complimentary Capital Cruise Missles and Faction ammo types (especially Kenetic) A lot faster, Less DPS/Volley damage, much much faster. (let me say that again - much much faster) -----------

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