Originally by: FT Diomedes

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Originally by: Kirtan Loor

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So WTF is all this whining about? Crowd control is a part of every MMO and people usually whine about it. The whines will never cease. Even if there is a complete removal of falcon's bonus, crowd control whines will just move on to the next ship.

Please read this well:

"Nerfing crowd control is NOT a solution."

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Excellent post.

My problem with the Falcon is that there is no reason to fly the Rook. I'd like to see the Falcon left alone, and the Rook boosted to give it some effectiveness in a role the Falcon cannot do.

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Originally by: Murina

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Edited by: Murina on 03/11/2008 21:37:09

Originally by: Aleus Stygian

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Firstly, BiggestT, you're right; people don't complain as much about the Rook or the Scorpion because those ships don't appear out of bloody nowhere and ruin an engagement when you've already devoted your efforts, nor are they as easy to get away with using in lowsec. They still get called primary though. Ain't much difference, save in the amount of cowardly crap that can take place with one ship, and not with the others.

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You use the word "cowardly" and the comment "ruin an engagement", it seems you prefer your combat to be rather static and predictable with every asset in full view and in theater for all to see?. Combat in eve is fluid and can change with the introduction of many types of ships not just falcons or ECM ships that is what makes it so entertaining and exciting instead of boring and predictable.

Maybe you should go play chess or summat?.

Originally by: Aleus Stygian

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Can you tell me what the heck you think a 'balanced' DPS/EWAR gang is? And can you do it without using only Caldari ships for the EWAR?

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10 man gang consisting of 3 logistics, 2 fast tacklers, 4 cruise ravens (nuet in spare high, mwd, sensor booster, damps in the mids, dmg mods, plate and rep in lows), 1 falcon,scorp or rook.

Ive used variation like this to awesome effect against all forms of gangs on TQ.

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Originally by: Murina

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Edited by: Murina on 03/11/2008 22:22:00

Originally by: Lorz0r

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Shame that gang will die in about 2 minutes to 3 falcons and 7 dps battleships. Sure you might take out a falcon or 2 if youre very very lucky with the ravens. But that wont matter because for the first 40 seconds or so your logistics ships will be jammed and the ravens die in about 10 seconds flat each.

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Do all your fights involve sitting still at the optimal of the ppl you are fighting and allowing them to pound you until you pop?. No wonder ppl like you cry to ccp to nerf virtually anything and everything with such poor pvp skills and battle planning.

Lets see 7 dps battleships (close range then) while my ships can hit at 0-max range as well as damp them at med range, you have no tackle so i can avoid losing any ships by them simply being aligned and warping out and returning, the three falcons could jam a few of my ships but that is all tbh as you cannot even lock me let alone hit my ships with your dmg dealers.

Bad plan bud.

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Originally by: Murina

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Firstly, since when don't battleships tackle?

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When they are outside scram range.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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That's utter ****. You think a few unbonused damps are going to stop 7 battleships?

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Stop no... screw with lock range yes.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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Fights never ever begin at 50-60km ranges because that would be ******ed for a close range gang to warp in that far away.

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What makes you think you are going to dictate range and be warping in on me and me not warping in on you at range with my BS and logistics?.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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If for some reason I couldn't start the fight that close to you (god knows how that would happen) then I wouldn't engage.

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Fine then most of your ships warp off while those i have tackled get owned.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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When we catch up to you you're dead.

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How long do you think it would take you to catch a ship say 80km away burning away from you at the same speed you are going?....never?.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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A few ceptors will last maybe 10-15 seconds when they get within 25km.

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Ceptors need to be inside 25 km to tackle.....are you sure?. And what makes you think i will be using ceptors in the first place?.

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Originally by: Murina

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Edited by: Murina on 03/11/2008 23:24:56

Originally by: Lorz0r

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I don't care what you use to tackle cus they'll just get jammed if I wanted to warp off.

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So only your falcon can jam?..is mine broken and remember jamming recons aint so easy especially as most ppl do not fit many gallente racials....but i suppose you do huh?.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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Your DPS wouldn't be enough to down any of my battleships anyway. If your 'fast tacklers' are brave enough to come close enough to 7 battleships then good luck to them especially after this speed nerf.

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I would not consider 30-45km close and i gaurentee not a single BS of yours would be locking targets past 20km or so bud.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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I have encountered a gang very similar to yours and you know what got me out? a Falcon. I was scrammed and webbed by a huggin and arazu and permajammed by a falcon and they all sat at about 40km pounding me and a friend for about 3-4 minutes until my cap boosters started to run out. during that time we got 2 falcons in position, uncloaked and jammed every single ship in their gang. (3 recons, 3 battleships) we then motored it to them and killed 2 of the battleships when the rest of them ran off.

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Pal you can tank 4 cruise ravens a huggin and a arazu for 4 minutes only in your dreams unless they were total noobs with no skills. But hey it was a nice story....but that is all it was a story.

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Originally by: GateScout

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Edited by: GateScout on 03/11/2008 23:43:22
This thread is a prime example of why CCP isn't moving to nerf the falcon.

Drop the imprecise language, generalities and general bull**** and put a real argument together.

The falcon may, in fact, be "over powered," but you have to define what that means and give clear, concise examples.

Most of the folks posting here, probably don't know how ECM jamming probabilities are calculated or how falcons are typically fit. We needs specifics, not generalities.

The hyperbole and extreme, limited examples don't cut it.

Until we have an solid, well defined argument, all you are doing is blowing smoke...and CCP will continue to ignore you (and rightly so...).

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Originally by: Murina

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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My 3 falcons > your 1 falcon. I'll jam your tacklers and I'll jam your ravens/logistics as well I could guarantee it.

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10 ships, all with 20 or more sig str, at least 3 different races, with only 3 falcons?. Maybe you get lucky and jam all my ships the first cycle but miss one cycle and you lose at least 1 falcon as it warps out or gets popped.

You still have a problem, im burning away from you at least as fast as you are approaching, you have no fast tackle and can do nothing but hope to keep me jammed cos if you miss one jam cycle your house of cards comes crashing down.

Sori bud but your gang setup is poor, weak, lacks tackle and range and with a single missed jam will come crashing down around you. While you could not even touch mine unless i was stupid and warped into you at 0.

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Originally by: Murina

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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You say my gang is made of cards? Are you kidding me? You have next to no dps and all your tank comes from logistics ships. With my battleships fitting just 1 remote rep they could tank you indefinately. The best outcome you could get from this is a stalemate.

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So your now a RR BS gang and are staying within 8km of each other while chasing my BS?....ok.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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All it would take is for 1 of my falcons to warp off infront of you and warp back to the gang at 50km cloaked. They all warp to said Falcon and you're dead before you even realised what's happened.

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Ok here is a tip for pvp in eve if you probed me or did what you say and could warp on top of me long before you could lock me from warp id be long gone because their is a delay for you as you land, while i see you move and land long before you can start targeting let alone get a lock. It even effects interdictors and delays the bubble dropping long enough to warp out unless your drunk, just a little tip from a high sp sniper gang member for ya bud.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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A few lucky shots from some long range ammo and you've got 2 dead tacklers.

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In what a mega?...28km is pushing it even with the longest bud and even amaar ships could not kill a recon with long range ammo before it got away....your grasping.

Originally by: Lorz0r

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One tiny slip up from your tacklers and they are looking at their pod.

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light drones and LR ammo?...they would need to be virtually afk.

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Originally by: Murina

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Edited by: Murina on 04/11/2008 00:54:53

Originally by: Lorz0r

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I'm sick of this theorycraft, basically Falcons > your ****ty gang. If I just had 6 falcons and 4 BS I'd just permajam all your ships and what will you do then?

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Warp off as you keep forgetting to bring tackle.

Bud the setup im talking about (with and without the logistics) has been tried and tested against every form of gang in eve and it owns more than it can lose or be stalemated against, yes their are some setups it cannot deal to well with like a 10 man RR BS gang but then nothing is perfect and if it was it would be broken and really need nerfing.

What you look for in a gang is best options to cover as much as what you may face in eve with the numbers you have, so yea a 10 man perfectly skilled falcon gang can jam the crap out of any other 10 man gang at 200+km proly permanently but its worthless and pointless.

A good mix of ships may not be able to break the tank of a 10 man RR BS gang (not much could apart from another RR BS gang or capitals) or beat 10 falcons but it will still beat and be able to counter most reasonable gang setups with its variety and range.

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