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Maelstrom VS Tempest with Minmatar BS V

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DIsposible Hero State War Academy Caldari State 18	Posted - 2012.04.04 02:13:00 - [1] - Quote So I've long considered the Maelstrom to be the big brother of the Tempest; its the tier 3 battleship, so that means it should be the biggest and the best, right? It certainly has an impressive tank, and can fit more guns than the Tempest. But does more guns = more DPS? Apparently not if you've trained Minmatar Battleship to V. Due to the Tempest's damage bonus, a Tempest with 6 guns can actually do more bonused damage than a Maelstrom, and with it's extra low slot it can also fit an extra gyro / tracking enhancer. I'm in the drone regions, so its also dead handy to be able to fit a tractor beam and salvager so I can loot while I fight. What I want to know is; does the extra DPS offset the lack of tank? I'm new to the drone regions in general so I don't know yet how the Tempest's tank will perform; it may exclude me from the tougher anomolies. My current fit is something like this: Highs: 6x 800m Repeating Artillery II Small tractor beam Salvager Mids: X-Large Shield booster Explosive Shield Hardener Kinetic Shield Hardener Adaptive Invunerability field 100mn Afterburner II Lows: 2x Gyrostabs 3x Tracking enhancer 1x Coprocessor II So, is it worth going with the Tempest if I'm after pure isk / hour?
Roosterton Syndicalis Immortalis 339	Posted - 2012.04.04 02:19:00 - [2] - Quote No, the Mael will always get more dps than the Tempest. BS V: 'Pest: 61.5 = 9 Mael: 81.25 = 10 The ratio of the damage bonuses (2:1 in favor of the Tempest) remains the same regardless of what level you have Matar BS to. BS III: 'Pest: 61.3 = 7.8 Mael: 81.15 = 9.2 So not only does the Maelstrom have superior tank, it's also got superior dps. The extra DPS of a Tempest does not offset the lack of tank because it doesn't have any extra DPS. There is basically no reason to use a Tempest over a Maelstrom, unless you really really want the extra 2 utility highs for some reason. (But tbh, salvaging missions isn't really worth it unless you have a noctis)
DIsposible Hero State War Academy Caldari State 18	Posted - 2012.04.04 02:24:00 - [3] - Quote Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from? Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?
nahjustwarpin Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.04.04 02:46:00 - [4] - Quote DIsposible Hero wrote: Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from? Also, what if I had launchers in the highs? from math class with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage.
Zarnak Wulf CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 300	Posted - 2012.04.04 02:55:00 - [5] - Quote I've never seen it mathematically explained like that. The Tempest at level 5 gets a 25% damage boost. 6 turrets x 125% = 7.5 turrets in effect. The Maelstrom always has 8 turrets no matter what level you have Minmatar BS trained to. This little fact is why the Mael is currently the nullsec favorite - ease of entry. The Tempest is faster, more agile, cheaper and has it's choice of armour or shield tanking. It can fit two large nuets or two siege launchers - making it a higher DPS platform then the Mael.
JackStraw56 Run Like an Antelope Knights of Tomorrow 45	Posted - 2012.04.04 02:57:00 - [6] - Quote His math was not quite correct, but the conclusion was, the Mael does more damage. Calculation for the Maelstrom is like this: 5% reduction in rate of fire per level, so 25% reduction at level 5. We can measure damage in "effective turrets" DPS = damage/rate of fire DPS = 8/(0.75) = 10.67 effective turrets The 8 is for the number of turrets and the 0.75 because the rate of fire is now 75% of what it was before we got the 25% bonus. Now the math for the Tempest DPS = (6*1.25)/(0.75) = 10 effective turrets 1.25 multiplier to damage because of the 5% damage bonus and again the rate of fire is 0.75 because of the 25% rate of fire reduction.
Dato Koppla Perkone Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.04.04 03:00:00 - [7] - Quote Mael for PvE always, as you can't really capitalize on the Tempests advantages (Utility highs, agility, speed) and the Mael has it all where it matters most (tank, dps).
JackStraw56 Run Like an Antelope Knights of Tomorrow 45	Posted - 2012.04.04 03:00:00 - [8] - Quote nahjustwarpin wrote: DIsposible Hero wrote: Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from? Also, what if I had launchers in the highs? from math class with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage. Time to go back to math class, those numbers are wrong
DIsposible Hero State War Academy Caldari State 18	Posted - 2012.04.04 03:03:00 - [9] - Quote Dato Koppla wrote: Mael for PvE always, as you can't really capitalize on the Tempests advantages (Utility highs, agility, speed) and the Mael has it all where it matters most (tank, dps). I'm fighting rogue drones, remember? I can totally capitalize on the utility slots Sounds like its close either way; current plan is to use a solo Tempest until my dedicated salvage toon is ready, then switch to the Mael.
Kaikka Carel White syndicate BattleStar Alliance 13	Posted - 2012.04.04 09:07:00 - [10] - Quote nahjustwarpin wrote: DIsposible Hero wrote: Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from? Also, what if I had launchers in the highs? from math class with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage. From math: 1.25*1/0.75=1.66667777
nahjustwarpin Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.04.04 13:17:00 - [11] - Quote Kaikka Carel wrote: nahjustwarpin wrote: DIsposible Hero wrote: Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from? Also, what if I had launchers in the highs? from math class with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage. From math: 1.25*1/0.75=1.66667777 it's already in JackStraw56's post (although next time, copy paste from calculator, because you are not 100% correct either). i admit i was wrong relying on someone else's post
Roosterton Syndicalis Immortalis 339	Posted - 2012.04.04 14:37:00 - [12] - Quote Blah, my maths don't really matter since the ROF bonus is the one they both have anyway Really though, now I'm confused. Isn't the rate of fire how frequently a weapon fires in a set time period? So a weapon which fires once every second would have a ROF of 1shot/second Shouldn't increasing the rate of fire by 25% mean shooting 1.25shots/second - in other words, 25% more dps? edit: NVM, I get it now, somebody in a different thread explained to me how EVE treats rof mechanics...
Exploited Engineer Creatively Applied Violence Inc. 25	Posted - 2012.04.04 15:48:00 - [13] - Quote Roosterton wrote: Blah, my maths don't really matter since the ROF bonus is the one they both have anyway Really though, now I'm confused. Isn't the rate of fire how frequently a weapon fires in a set time period? You'd be correct if this wasn't EVE, where things don't work the way they do in real life. In EVE, a "RoF bonus" is actually a reduction of the delay between two shots. A "25% RoF bonus" is, in EVE reality, a reduction of the delay between two shots of (1 - 0.25%)=75%. This means that your DPS actually is (1 / 0.75)=1.333... of what it would be without the bonus.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 3254	Posted - 2012.04.04 16:21:00 - [14] - Quote nahjustwarpin wrote: DIsposible Hero wrote: Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from? Also, what if I had launchers in the highs? from math class with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage. Go back to class. A 5% ROF bonus equates to a 33% dps boost at level 5 A pest has 6 * 1.25 / .75 effective guns;10 A mael has 8 / .75 effective guns; 10.666 Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Kattshiro Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 42	Posted - 2012.04.04 19:23:00 - [15] - Quote With missiles it will do more damage.
Tenga Halaris Exit Strategies Mordus Angels 25	Posted - 2012.04.04 20:11:00 - [16] - Quote ...go for a Machariel, since both Mael and Pest are slow and have low DPS.
DIsposible Hero State War Academy Caldari State 18	Posted - 2012.04.04 22:42:00 - [17] - Quote Tenga Halaris wrote: ...go for a Machariel, since both Mael and Pest are slow and have low DPS. Pest has no tank and Mael is a flying brick. Thats exactly what I'm saving for; but for now i'll be using a pimped out Maelstrom with a tracking computer and 3x tracking enhancers. That way I don't have to move anywhere, I just sit in one spot and then everything dies.
nahjustwarpin Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.04.04 23:40:00 - [18] - Quote Malcanis wrote: nahjustwarpin wrote: DIsposible Hero wrote: Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from? Also, what if I had launchers in the highs? from math class with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage. Go back to class. A 5% ROF bonus equates to a 33% dps boost at level 5 A pest has 6 * 1.25 / .75 effective guns;10 A mael has 8 / .75 effective guns; 10.666 dude, just read whole topic. i already said i was wrong and you obviously try to be smart guy and repeat what others said
RougeOperator Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 736	Posted - 2012.04.04 23:46:00 - [19] - Quote Kattshiro wrote: With missiles it will do more damage. I use two heavy missile launchers and get more DPS in my pests I use when I run missions. Also I have done missions with nothing more then one large or XL shield booster. You should be killing things so fast in a tempest that tank is not an issue. 3 TE 3 or 4 gyros shield tank in mids. Tempest is a great mission ship once you are skilled enough to not need the Maelstroms overtaking properties. And one hell of a lot cheaper then a Mach. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á
God's Apples Aliastra Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2012.04.05 02:17:00 - [20] - Quote I understand how the double bonused ships get 66% damage bonus. But could someone explain how you get a 33% damage boost with just a 25% RoF boost?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1462	Posted - 2012.04.05 02:36:00 - [21] - Quote God's Apples wrote: I understand how the double bonused ships get 66% damage bonus. But could someone explain how you get a 33% damage boost with just a 25% RoF boost? 1 / (1-.25) = 1.33333333 Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
JackStraw56 Run Like an Antelope Knights of Tomorrow 46	Posted - 2012.04.05 03:00:00 - [22] - Quote God's Apples wrote: I understand how the double bonused ships get 66% damage bonus. But could someone explain how you get a 33% damage boost with just a 25% RoF boost? The details of the math are in my previous post and Liang's. Think of it this way, if you had a 50% rate of fire bonus, your guns would shoot twice as often, so you would do 200% dps. You can't just take the rate of fire bonus number (50% in this case) and get the percentage increase in dps like you can with a damage bonus as opposed to a rof bonus.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 144	Posted - 2012.04.05 10:05:00 - [23] - Quote Because EVE also fails at Math and/or English. It is not a 5% bonus to rate of fire, it is a 5% reduction to weapon cycle time. At lvl 1, the bonus to rate of fire is 1.0/0.95 = about 1.0526... ie a 5.26% bonus to ROF Lvl 5 compared to lvl 4 has a bonus to rate of fire of 0.8/0.75 =1.06667 ie a 6.67% bonus to rate of fire. (similar math applies to resist bonuses) At any rate, even if it was a strict 5% bonus to ROF, your math would still be wrong. It would then be 1.25 * 1.25 = 1.5625 -> ie a 56.25% increase in DPS (damage bonus x ROF bonus) EVE's bonus descriptions often leave a lot to be desired (I'm thinking of shield comp skills, target painting skills, etc). They aren't clear/well written descriptions of the effect. "Rates" of fire would be like: 5 shots per minute, or 12 shots/min A true % increase to the rate of fire would directly equate to the same % increase in DPS. Ie 50% increase in rate of fire, if your base rate was 10 shots/min, it would increase 50% to 15 shots/min. I don't know why CCP hasn't re-written the bonus description to say "cycle time" rather than "rate of fire", because their current description is misleading and wrong.
Tenga Halaris Exit Strategies Mordus Angels 25	Posted - 2012.04.05 10:22:00 - [24] - Quote If you want to loot and fly a Patrol, you should at least be able to tank for 5-10 mins, even if its a burst tank. Try a capbooster: [Tempest, drones] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Pith C-Type Explosion Dampening Field Invulnerability Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Large Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I Sure is more expensive than a T2 fit, but since you're looking for a Mach, you should be able to afford those mods at least.
Rel'k Bloodlor Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords 168	Posted - 2012.04.05 11:19:00 - [25] - Quote ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do.
Crellion Parental Control 8	Posted - 2012.04.05 12:36:00 - [26] - Quote Rel'k Bloodlor wrote: ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know. I fail to see what you mean about more dice rolls being better. Rolling dice 1 time with a 10x multiplier is better than rolling 10 times with a 1x multiplier? In other news: rof bonus is better because it gives (as stated many times in this post allreay) 33% instead of 25% dps increase and also (for pve) because it wastes less of a salvo each time a vessel pops. Taking into account weapon grouping this is now considerable. If however you can get the same dps from a damage bonused vessel as you could get from a rof bonused vessel then the ammo usage favors damage ship (example Vargur v Machariel). This is overturned when there is real dps difference because in that case the more dps (from rof usually) finishes npcs quicker allowing for less active tanking thus less ammo fired actually...
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 144	Posted - 2012.04.05 12:38:00 - [27] - Quote I don't think its any better than with missile ROF More "rolls" per unit time just means less variation in DPS over certain time frames. Also, a damage boost means you use less ammo/cap to deal a certain amount of damage. Not so with cycle time reductions. This can lead to significant savings when using T2/faction ammo, and T2 lasers/hybrids. Of course if your target is active tanking, applying more DPS means you have less total damage to do - and the ROF bonus boosts total DPS more. Conversely, it doesn't help your alpha at all, while the damage bonus does significantly boost alpha. So.... I wouldn't conclude its "way better", they are both nice bonuses, and having both at once (ie on the tempest, or the mach), is very nice.
Kattshiro Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 43	Posted - 2012.04.05 13:06:00 - [28] - Quote Rel'k Bloodlor wrote: ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know. Greater chance of wrecking shots (crits) I believe is what he's driving at.
Crellion Parental Control 8	Posted - 2012.04.05 13:35:00 - [29] - Quote Kattshiro wrote: Rel'k Bloodlor wrote: ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know. Greater chance of wrecking shots (crits) I believe is what he's driving at. If he meant the opposite, i.e. less chance of extreme deviation as Verity S suggests I might agree... If he means what you think he does I disagree that there is an advantage there... Quite the opposite... On the subject but a bit further out: I have seen a gazillion graphs about all sorts of turret comparisons in the old forums (remember naughty boy?) but I do not rememebr the authoriative answer to this: For the turret to achieve the same dps as the equasion: ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets / rof (what is usually referred to as dps or eft dps) does it need to hit: "hits" "aims weel" or " excellent shot"? (I know glancing blows and wreckings are out of the question of course). Anyone reliably knows the correct answer?
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus S I L E N T. 42	Posted - 2012.04.05 14:14:00 - [30] - Quote Roosterton wrote: There is basically no reason to use a Tempest over a Maelstrom, unless you really really want the extra 2 utility highs Wanting to move is another good reason, so is wanting an armor tank...

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