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Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:03:00 - [91] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: Akita T On the other hand, EVENTUALLY, each and every question (except the dumbest question that is "is there a god"... right on par with "is there an Easter Bunny" or "where does Santa Clause live") will be answered by science. Oh yeah, Religion has proven that if you can't beat em, absorb them...... And if they won't bend, say they're evil and they're going to hell in order to try and save face --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!!
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:05:00 - [92] If a guy hung out with 11-13, haven't read the fairytale in quite some time, other guys for years doing who-knows-what with no women to speak of present one would call him gay or son of god. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:12:00 - [93] Originally by: Sokratesz It is used as an excuse, and without religion, many crimes and atrocities would not have been committed. Wow, are you serious? Without religion, there would simply have been another excuse; you speak the wrong dialect, you have the wrong color of skin, you have land I want, you have resources I want, or I'm just feeling particularly ornery today. Man is an inherently violent and selfish creature. Religion is merely a convenient scapegoat.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:30:00 - [94] I can't remember who said it but... "Without religion, good men do good things, evil men do evil things... it takes religion for good men to do evil things." _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:34:00 - [95] Edited by: Intense Thinker on 03/11/2008 21:35:08 Originally by: Akita T I can't remember who said it but... "Without religion, good men do good things, evil men do evil things... it takes religion for good men to do evil things." That's awesome! Find out who said that! *Edit: too late, I win... Steven Weinberg (1933 - ), quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999 \o/ --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:36:00 - [96] Edited by: Akita T on 03/11/2008 21:36:10 Originally by: Intense Thinker That's awesome! Find out who said that! GOOGLE TO THE RESCUE ! Found it... "Steven Weinberg : With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." More quotes : Linkage _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:45:00 - [97] "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart" _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
MooKids Caldari Dark Echo Engineering	Posted - 2008.11.03 21:54:00 - [98] A four page discussion mainly involving religion? The forum mods must be on lunch. -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:01:00 - [99] Originally by: Akita T "Without religion, good men do good things, evil men do evil things... it takes religion for good men to do evil things." Pseudo-intellectual nonsense, really. What is "good" and "evil" outside of a higher authority to define such? With no higher authority to be accountable to, I figure there really is no such thing as good or evil...there's just what you need/want to benefit you most at that moment. Whatever that may be can't really be defined as "wrong" because what is wrong outside of a moral authority? But if you acknowledge a higher authority so superior as to define what is good and what is evil, that starts sounding an aweful lot like "religion" to me. So really, in the absense of a higher authority, in the absense of religion...there really is no good and evil. Which makes this silly little paradox read something more like "Without religion, men do things."
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:21:00 - [100] Edited by: Sokratesz on 03/11/2008 22:27:13 Edited by: Sokratesz on 03/11/2008 22:22:17 Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Akita T "Without religion, good men do good things, evil men do evil things... it takes religion for good men to do evil things." Pseudo-intellectual nonsense, really. What is "good" and "evil" outside of a higher authority to define such? With no higher authority to be accountable to, I figure there really is no such thing as good or evil...there's just what you need/want to benefit you most at that moment. Whatever that may be can't really be defined as "wrong" because what is wrong outside of a moral authority? But if you acknowledge a higher authority so superior as to define what is good and what is evil, that starts sounding an aweful lot like "religion" to me. So really, in the absense of a higher authority, in the absense of religion...there really is no good and evil. Which makes this silly little paradox read something more like "Without religion, men do things." Would you hold it against me when i tell you i laughed when i noticed you are defending religion, and in cva? also the whole religion needed for morals story is OLD and *******S, get with the times. humans have morals totally independent of race, religion or w/e thus its a simple evolutionary product Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart @ Iceland from 3-11 til 8-11
PKlavins Caldari The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:27:00 - [101] Originally by: MooKids A four page discussion mainly involving religion? The forum mods must be on lunch. QFT. I'd add something but the atheists here are doing a terrific job anyway; they've said everything I would... keep it up The new 7.5km web = web + scram = "Wamble".
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:28:00 - [102] Originally by: PKlavins Originally by: MooKids A four page discussion mainly involving religion? The forum mods must be on lunch. QFT. I'd add something but the atheists here are doing a terrific job anyway; they've said everything I would... keep it up i havent even started quoting dawkins, douglas or carlin yet Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart @ Iceland from 3-11 til 8-11
PKlavins Caldari The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:29:00 - [103] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: PKlavins Originally by: MooKids A four page discussion mainly involving religion? The forum mods must be on lunch. QFT. I'd add something but the atheists here are doing a terrific job anyway; they've said everything I would... keep it up i havent even started quoting dawkins, douglas or carlin yet Ahh, three of the best atheists in the world... when you do start quoting, I'll enjoy the show The new 7.5km web = web + scram = "Wamble".
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:34:00 - [104] Edited by: Akita T on 03/11/2008 22:37:51 Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Akita T "Without religion, good men do good things, evil men do evil things... it takes religion for good men to do evil things." Pseudo-intellectual nonsense, really. What is "good" and "evil" outside of a higher authority to define such? Wow, talk about narrow-mindedness. How can you most easily define "good" and "evil" ? "Good" bring advantages to others, while they might go either way for yourself. Cooperation for mutual benefit, helping others, that's "good". It is almost synonymous with "altruistic". "Neutral" is, well, not harming nor helping others. At least not intentionally, anyway. Going about your business. Doing your thing. "Evil" is harming or damaging others, usually with the INTENT of benefiting yourself (wether that happens at all or not). Wether you do it accidentally and don't compensate for the damage dealt, wether you simply don't care, or even intentionally do that just to gain an advantage OR JUST FOR THE KICK YOU GET, that's clearly "evil". It is almost synonymous with "selfish". Was that so hard ? Did you really need a "higher power" to define "good" and "evil" ? Oh, and the rest of your post is rather irrelevant too. ___ P.S. Altruism and selfishness are both EVOLVED traits. Altruism favors the species, selfishness favors the individual. You need both for a communal society. The definitions of "good and evil" are in our genes. Chew on that for a while. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:35:00 - [105] I think I've heard a moderator, quick hide! ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:38:00 - [106] Originally by: Dmian I think I've heard a moderator, quick hide! I taught I taw a puddy tat! -------------------- What? Me Worry? --------------------
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.03 22:39:00 - [107] Originally by: Dmian I think I've heard a moderator, quick hide! theyre only about a day late Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart @ Iceland from 3-11 til 8-11
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:13:00 - [108] Originally by: Sokratesz Would you hold it against me when i tell you i laughed when i noticed you are defending religion, and in cva? Not at all. You're certainly not the first to try and make connections (implied or direct) between a character's in-game identity and an out-of-game persona. Originally by: Sokratesz humans have morals totally independent of race, religion or w/e thus its a simple evolutionary product What are your morals based upon? Give me something more tangible than natural selection. If our morals were based upon natural selection, how in the world did homosexuality (getting back to the topic) enter the gene pool? It's certainly not a trait likely to further the propogation of a species. We base our morals on more than genetic programming. Too often what someone might consider "doing the right thing" is not practical, logical, or generally better-for-the-furtherance-of-the-species. Many would consider charity to be right and good...but from a natural selection standpoint it's completely counterproductive. So what makes it right and good? Doesn't sound like a sense of right and good is any sort of evolutionary product to me...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:17:00 - [109] Edited by: Akita T on 03/11/2008 23:18:34 Originally by: Garreck What are your morals based upon? Give me something more tangible than natural selection. How much more tangible that that do you need it to be ? Do you really need some guy coming down the mountain with 10 rules scribbled on some stone tablets ? Or do you want to look through an electronic microscope and see "Copyright God 6000 BC" written all over our DNA ? Originally by: Garreck If our morals were based upon natural selection, how in the world did homosexuality (getting back to the topic) enter the gene pool? It's certainly not a trait likely to further the propogation of a species. Explain then how ANIMAL homosexuality could be justified through natural causes in a way HUMAN homosexuality can't. Or, wait, are you trying to tell me animals have souls and free will too ? That's not what the Bible claims ! _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:20:00 - [110] Originally by: Akita T Was that so hard ? Did you really need a "higher power" to define "good" and "evil" ? That's your definition of good and evil, sure. And that's all well and good. I, as an individual might develop my own working definition. And the guy next to me, his own. And so on. Where do those definitions jive? Usually only when it would benefit all of us for them to do so. The minute you have something I want and there's more to gain from me taking (however violently) than from me letting you have it...perhaps taking it becomes "good" to me and "evil" to you. Until that time, I allow you to have it...which is "percieved" as good, but is it really? I'm just waiting for a chance to be "evil" from a certain perspective...which could be considered evil in and of itself. You see what I'm getting at? Without acknowledging authority, (a heady authority at that) I have no reason whatsoever to accept what definitions you feed me as "good" and "evil."
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:24:00 - [111] Edited by: Akita T on 03/11/2008 23:25:16 Originally by: Garreck I, as an individual might develop my own working definition. And the guy next to me, his own. And so on. You can define "good" and "evil" for yourself as much as you like, but you can't redefine "altruistic" and "selfish", now can you ? Hell, just say there is no good and evil, and they're abstract concepts that are mostly irrelevant. But altruistic/selfish are practical concepts and they aren't interpretable. P.S. And you might also want to go re-read the posts above and reply to all issues presented rather than cherry pick a single concept. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:25:00 - [112] Originally by: Akita T How much more tangible that that do you need it to be ? Do you really need some guy coming down the mountain with 10 rules scribbled on some stone tablets ? Or do you want to look through an electronic microscope and see "Copyright God 6000 BC" written all over our DNA ? I need it to be plenty tangible, because otherwise I have an excuse to behave any way I please. And believe me, so does everyone else. That's what denial of God is ultimately all about. If the here and now, 100 years give or take, is all any of us have...wow...why the heck behave "good" at all? (And not breaking societal norms does not make one "good," it merely makes one smart...can't enjoy the benefits of no eternal consequences if you're locked away in a prison because some darned worldly authority told you you're evil.) Originally by: Akita T Explain then how ANIMAL homosexuality could be justified through natural causes in a way HUMAN homosexuality can't. Actually, evolution completely fails to take many things into account...animal homosexuality as an observable trait is only one of 'em.
Semkhet The Priory	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:27:00 - [113] Originally by: Garreck What is "good" and "evil" outside of a higher authority to define such? With no higher authority to be accountable to, I figure there really is no such thing as good or evil...there's just what you need/want to benefit you most at that moment. Whatever that may be can't really be defined as "wrong" because what is wrong outside of a moral authority? But if you acknowledge a higher authority so superior as to define what is good and what is evil, that starts sounding an aweful lot like "religion" to me. So really, in the absense of a higher authority, in the absense of religion...there really is no good and evil. Which makes this silly little paradox read something more like "Without religion, men do things." Pathetic nonsense. I've spent 4 years in the middle of a religious civil war and saw enough. It's people like you, believing that there is no good and evil outside the framework of foreign and artificial dogmas, who nurture religions, politics, and end being the toy of endless manipulations. Religions fill the void reigning in immature & naive characters who are unable to find a sense to life on their own. My dog knows better about good and evil than most of the people I know.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:30:00 - [114] Originally by: Akita T Hell, just say there is no good and evil, and they're abstract concepts that are mostly irrelevant. Aha. So that really cool phrase that was apparently so profound is exactly what I said it was. Just some pseudo-intellectual silliness, because good and evil are indeed abstract, irrelevant concepts.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:36:00 - [115] Originally by: Garreck I need it to be plenty tangible, because otherwise I have an excuse to behave any way I please. Then you're what we call "a sociopath". Quote: And believe me, so does everyone else. No, they don't. You behave like you do because doing "evil" (selfish) acts only gets you a short-term benefit, while making the rest of the people involved in that act suspicious of you. Conversely, doing something "good" (altruistic) usually has the opposite effect. Both selfish and altruistic traits are propagated, as both traits further the species' survival. Most individuals exhibit a mix of both altruistic and selfish behaviour, with altruistic behaviour more dominant in small communities and selfish behaviour more dominant in larger communities. It's like the endless prisoner's dillema and tit-for-tat algorythms. The larger your "pure altruist" population sample, the better the "pure selfish" actors fare, but only as long as there's NOT enough "tit-for-tat" actors around firing up the "punishment" part. Since in small communities everybody knows everybody else, "selfish" actors fare very poorly. Since in large communities you have a high probability of encountering and interacting with people you never interacted with before, you get a chance to "shaft" more people. You don't need a higher power or anything like that to explain ANY of this, you just need the least bit of knowledge in the proper scientific fields and the tiniest bit of experimental feedback. Quote: Actually, evolution completely fails to take many things into account...animal homosexuality as an observable trait is only one of 'em. Nope, evolution doesn't "fail" to take anything into account, and animal homosexuality is easily explainable in the framework of evolutionary pressure. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Atama Cardel HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:43:00 - [116] Quote: pressing their opinions on abortion You don't have to be religious to realize that abortion is a disgusting practice
Semkhet The Priory	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:49:00 - [117] Originally by: Akita T Nope, evolution doesn't "fail" to take anything into account, and animal homosexuality is easily explainable in the framework of evolutionary pressure. It's easier than that. Actually many hundred of species have been documented displaying homosexual behavior, going from dolphins to lions. It is a very common tension deflection mechanism occurring when an asymmetry in the ratio of females vs males appears for whatever reason. Same for vegetals, where some (normally sexually differenciated) species automatically exhibits hermaphrodism as soon the optimal balance of sexes is altered.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:50:00 - [118] Originally by: Atama Cardel You don't have to be religious to realize that abortion is a disgusting practice Abortion is something the mother alone should have the right to decide on. Consider it forced eviction. My body, my right to evict unpaying/uninvited tennants that have no contract with me. Wether they have nowhere else to go is nobody's problem but theirs. If I decide to let them stay, fine. If not, out you go, screw them. It's like saying making an omlet is a disgusting practice. Yeah, sure, it MIGHT be. But people still eat omlets. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:53:00 - [119] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Garreck I need it to be plenty tangible, because otherwise I have an excuse to behave any way I please. Then you're what we call "a sociopath". A sociopath rejects a defined structure of morality altogether...I'm merely making the case that one needs to exist, and that it's something far greater than simple instinct. Originally by: Akita T You behave like you do because doing "evil" (selfish) acts only gets you a short-term benefit, while making the rest of the people involved in that act suspicious of you. Conversely, doing something "good" (altruistic) usually has the opposite effect. Both selfish and altruistic traits are propagated, as both traits further the species' survival. Most individuals exhibit a mix of both altruistic and selfish behaviour, with altruistic behaviour more dominant in small communities and selfish behaviour more dominant in larger communities. Most folks can go through their entire lives without ever engaging in truly altruistic behavior, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Me conforming to societal norms (not killing someone because they made a fat joke about me, or showing up to work every day, or following traffic laws) is neither a selfish nor altruistic act...indeed the motivations could actually lean more towards selfish: I don't want to get in trouble, I want to get paid, and I don't want to die in a car accident. So again...there needs to be a reason for "good" or "altruistic" acts. A reason that goes well beyond survival or benefit within a society...such acts are NOT altruistic.
Atama Cardel HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:57:00 - [120] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Atama Cardel You don't have to be religious to realize that abortion is a disgusting practice Abortion is something the mother alone should have the right to decide on. Consider it forced eviction. My body, my right to evict unpaying/uninvited tennants that have no contract with me. Wether they have nowhere else to go is nobody's problem but theirs. If I decide to let them stay, fine. If not, out you go, screw them. It's like saying making an omlet is a disgusting practice. Yeah, sure, it MIGHT be. But people still eat omlets. Did you really just compare making an omelet to killing an unborn baby?

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