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Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
25
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Posted - 2012.04.04 17:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello!
So, I saw this thing the other day, it was a story about a woman and her slave, you know, the usual stuff, She's the fourth daughter of an important holder, he's her trusty slave, They Fight Crime, and so on.
And I thought, that really, she was far too young to be dealing with that sort of thing, because you know, the point of having a slave is that you are responsible for that person's physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing.
It's not like they're those silly handbag slaver hounds, I mean, a slave person can live decades and stuff, so it is really a big responsibility.
So, I think that really, people under the age of I don't know, thirty or so, shouldn't really have slaves. Or if they do, they should only do it under supervision. Like parental supervision and stuff. Or in an academic situation, Like at university or finishing school, where people can be taught to look after their slaves properly and stuff.
Because like, I see stuff with children of Holders having a slave do silly things like holding umbrellas and so on, and I'm like, you are too young to be responsible for another person, you silly child.
And like, I'm 21 and can see this sort of thing, so how come older, wiser people haven't seen it too ?
Cos even though the Empress said stuff about things, you know, it's not like the sun goes down, the sun goes up, everything's different today. Stuff takes Time.
Or maybe 40. Maybe 30 is still too young. I don't know. Probably some dudes from Hedion University would know more. Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/ |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
103
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Posted - 2012.04.04 17:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Without getting too deep into the volatile subject that is slavery, I'd like to point out that being a given age does not automatically make someone mature and responsible enough to handle a given task.
There are plenty of Holders over the age of thirty who couldn't take care of a pet fish, and plenty of people under the age of thirty who could reasonably lead by example.
It's the same issue as some regions having minimum ages for the consumption of alcohol. Coming of age doesn't mean you suddenly are capable of drinking responsibly. It just means you're old enough to drink legally. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
214
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Posted - 2012.04.04 18:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:Wbeing a given age does not automatically make someone mature and responsible enough to handle a given task But being below a given age often pretty much guarantees they aren't.
Personally I suggest the age limit be set to something like 10,000. (If someone manages to live that long, we can revisit the case.) |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
103
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Posted - 2012.04.04 18:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Except, as capsuleers, we're effectively acting in a very similar capacity. I'm responsible for the safety, health and well-being of a very large number of people numbering in the tens of thousands - a number larger than many Holders can claim to "own". In some cases, I exceed those numbers through the crew assigned to one single ship. Does my age (twenty-four) automatically mean I'm not suited to the task, when records show I clearly am?
And again, the issue is applying minimum age limits to a given sort of responsibility. Lou's example is that of a particularly volatile subject that is likely to cause the discussion to go absolutely nowhere as long as people who don't seem to be able to see the forest for the trees are going to harp on it. Hence the suggestion of another example - drinking ages.
Children who are brought up in families where they are exposed to and educated on things in a controlled manner are less likely to have issues when given the free reign to do things on their own, than those who are sheltered from it. Better to start learning at a young age rather than be just handed the responsibility without having had any prior experience. |
Vultirnus
Atlantic Evolution
13
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Posted - 2012.04.04 18:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:...the point of having a slave is that you are responsible for that person's physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing.
You and I have very different ideas about what a slave is. A slave is a tool of the empire, to be put to use when necessary.
"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - The Scriptures, Prophet Kuria, Paladin's Creed |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
214
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Posted - 2012.04.04 18:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vultirnus wrote:Louella Dougans wrote:...the point of having a slave is that you are responsible for that person's physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing. You and I have very different ideas about what a slave is. A slave is a tool of the empire, to be put to use when necessary. Can you folks over at the Empire burn this guy for heresy? Not that I care about your Faith, but one less slaver would be a victory for all. |
Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
25
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Morwen Lagann wrote:Wbeing a given age does not automatically make someone mature and responsible enough to handle a given task But being below a given age often pretty much guarantees they aren't. Personally I suggest the age limit be set to something like 10,000. (If someone manages to live that long, we can revisit the case.)
Thats a brilliant idea, and I agree wholeheartedly. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
598
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:Except, as capsuleers, we're effectively acting in a very similar capacity. I'm responsible for the safety, health and well-being of a very large number of people numbering in the tens of thousands - a number larger than many Holders can claim to "own". In some cases, I exceed those numbers through the crew assigned to one single ship. Does my age (twenty-four) automatically mean I'm not suited to the task, when records show I clearly am? A small tangent: If the holders would allow their slaves to decide to leave their service on their own volition, there would be a lot fewer debates on the issue.
When you ignore all the differences, two things tend to look strangely alike. That does not make them very comparable, though. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2012.04.04 23:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
I would certainly support legislation limiting ownership of sinewy young athletes to bitter old women. |
Manwe Todako
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
The answer is as simple as shortening the title of this thread from "People under something like I don't know 30, shouldn't have slaves" to PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE SLAVES. SANKOFA |
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Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Manwe Todako wrote:The answer is as simple as shortening the title of this thread from "People under something like I don't know 30, shouldn't have slaves" to PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE SLAVES.
But... who would kick the balls? |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
114
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Manwe Todako wrote:The answer is as simple as shortening the title of this thread from "People under something like I don't know 30, shouldn't have slaves" to PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE SLAVES.
Baby steps, I guess. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Thgil Goldcore
Advenus Classem
334
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
I received my first slave when I was 5, he was 15 at the time. My parents saw to it that he was well cared for and handled most of the administrative work, but still he helped shape me to the person I am today. Not to mention how many times over hes saved my life from doing rather stupid things. Its a miracle I lived to adulthood at all thinking back on it. He is still with me and is my chief of staff.
But I see what your aiming at. There are plenty of people who are entirely unfit to be a holder. Holdership is not about free labor (in my case its rather more expensive than conventional labor). To make a long story short I wouldn't be against the idea of proper licensing and inspection laws. |
Zana Shad
Royal Amarr Archaeological Society
0
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
As with many children of privelage, a small few will cast a larger shadow of irresponsibility upon the rest of us. I would fall into the category of individuals the author has suggested should't have slaves. As has been pointed out there are some Holders and family member sof Holders who abuse the God-given right and responsibility of Holdership. To be a Holder means that you are responsible for helping mold the souls of those entrusted to you. To helping them move towards being reclaimed by God through His Holy Church.
The fact that so many slaves are trotting around carrying purses and umbrellas shows that the problem lay with the Holder (or more than likely their children). It is our Sacred Duty to shape the lesser races through blood, sweat and tears. True labor, and not the inconsequential non-sense identified in the original message of this thread.
So I would issue this challenge to Holders everywhere: educate your heirs and offspring in the true meaning of being a Holder. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
234
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Most of the Holders I speak with are above the century mark. I don't think you have to worry about anything you do at age 30, because at that age you are nothing. A formless thing that may someday become virtuous, or fall from grace utterly. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
407
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:Most of the Holders I speak with are above the century mark. I don't think you have to worry about anything you do at age 30, because at that age you are nothing. A formless thing that may someday become virtuous, or fall from grace utterly.
So how old are you? You look about... 30-ish. |
Garreck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.04.05 09:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
The fundamental concept has merrit. Certain equipment requires a license or permit to operate/own; basic fundamentals of ownership and responsibility should be demonstrated. Slave ownership is at least as heady a responsibility as, say, operating a pod interface.
I think Mr Shogaatsu hit the nail on the head though; should be largely a non-issue given the age of most respected or well-known Holders.
It still strikes me as cute, though, when people skirt the issue of slavery as if it were...taboo or controversial. How backwards. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
816
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Posted - 2012.04.05 10:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Vultirnus wrote:Louella Dougans wrote:...the point of having a slave is that you are responsible for that person's physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing. You and I have very different ideas about what a slave is. A slave is a tool of the empire, to be put to use when necessary. Can you folks over at the Empire burn this guy for heresy? Not that I care about your Faith, but one less slaver would be a victory for all.
We'd love to take action against holders who abuse their slaves, but dealing with unprovoked aggression from external entities is a higher priority.
Perhaps if the lesser races ceased in their efforts to overthrow the Empire we'd have more time to ensure that slaves were looked after.
But of course there's no evidence that Vultirnus has mistreated any slaves. A good craftsman cares for his tools because they last longer that way. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
12
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Posted - 2012.04.05 11:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Garreck wrote:The fundamental concept has merrit. Certain equipment requires a license or permit to operate/own; basic fundamentals of ownership and responsibility should be demonstrated. Slave ownership is at least as heady a responsibility as, say, operating a pod interface.
Wholeheartedly agreed.
Mistreatment of slaves is one topic guaranteed to make me spit venom. Is it really so easy to forget that a slave is a person, too? In the State, improper conduct towards employees has consequences; an employer in the Federation who does something wrong faces both the media and the legal system; but here, nothing. I think it's fair to say that the lack of oversight is responsible for a huge amount of slave abuse - and thus a pretty large slice of the bad rep of the Empire in the cluster.
As Mr Blake said, one would hope that even those Holders who treat their slaves merely as tools treat them reasonably well, out of common sense if nothing else. The problem comes when bored Holders and bored children of Holders start considering slaves to be toys or distractions, because their position in society has removed any need for a workforce. |
Manwe Todako
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 12:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
There is no discussion, people. To enslave another human is an abomination to God. God has not nor needs to call any people to enslave another. Slavery is not Godly and those who enslave others are disobeying God. Those who oppose slavery need to stop the soft peddle arguments. Take for instance the whole point of this thread in dividing slave holders into two groups: those who mistreat their slaves and those who don't. The truth? Every slave is mistreated by virtue of being a slave. Slavery is mistreatment.
Those who brutalize their slaves should be immediately punished. Those who do not, should take next step and emancipate their slaves. SANKOFA |
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
244
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Posted - 2012.04.05 13:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Manwe Todako wrote:There is no discussion, people. To enslave another human is an abomination to God. God has not nor needs to call any people to enslave another. Slavery is not Godly and those who enslave others are disobeying God. Those who oppose slavery need to stop the soft peddle arguments. Take for instance the whole point of this thread in dividing slave holders into two groups: those who mistreat their slaves and those who don't. The truth? Every slave is mistreated by virtue of being a slave. Slavery is mistreatment.
I will probably repeat myself, but : even for enslaved criminal prisonners ? If yes, I do not follow your logic. |
Manwe Todako
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Manwe Todako wrote:There is no discussion, people. To enslave another human is an abomination to God. God has not nor needs to call any people to enslave another. Slavery is not Godly and those who enslave others are disobeying God. Those who oppose slavery need to stop the soft peddle arguments. Take for instance the whole point of this thread in dividing slave holders into two groups: those who mistreat their slaves and those who don't. The truth? Every slave is mistreated by virtue of being a slave. Slavery is mistreatment.
I will probably repeat myself, but : even for enslaved criminal prisonners ? If yes, I do not follow your logic.
Are we really doing this again? Are we really trying to equate the criminal prisoner with the slave? Is that an argument to continue slavery? Criminals go to prison in a just society. Would you have it otherwise? Please leave that argument in the grave where it belongs. Every free society has a criminal justice system whereby those who violate the inalienable rights of others are penalized and reformed. SANKOFA |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
816
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Garreck wrote:The fundamental concept has merrit. Certain equipment requires a license or permit to operate/own; basic fundamentals of ownership and responsibility should be demonstrated. Slave ownership is at least as heady a responsibility as, say, operating a pod interface. Wholeheartedly agreed. Mistreatment of slaves is one topic guaranteed to make me spit venom. Is it really so easy to forget that a slave is a person, too? In the State, improper conduct towards employees has consequences; an employer in the Federation who does something wrong faces both the media and the legal system; but here, nothing. I think it's fair to say that the lack of oversight is responsible for a huge amount of slave abuse - and thus a pretty large slice of the bad rep of the Empire in the cluster.
Do you have evidence of this "huge amount of slave abuse?"
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Manwe Todako wrote:There is no discussion, people. To enslave another human is an abomination to God. God has not nor needs to call any people to enslave another. Slavery is not Godly and those who enslave others are disobeying God. Those who oppose slavery need to stop the soft peddle arguments. Take for instance the whole point of this thread in dividing slave holders into two groups: those who mistreat their slaves and those who don't. The truth? Every slave is mistreated by virtue of being a slave. Slavery is mistreatment.
Those who brutalize their slaves should be immediately punished. Those who do not, should take next step and emancipate their slaves.
You lost me at 'abomination to God'.
I'm fully aware that the initial reasoning, and for many, continued justification for slavery was for religious purposes, but to my cynical eye, it holds progressively less water - particularly here in the Kingdom, where it doesn't take much digging beneath the surface to find a culture somewhat more secular than it might at first appear.
But if you're going to start bringing up religious justification for emancipation, then we might as well stop right here, because it'll turn into a 'my beliefs are better than yours' argument, and if you recall, that led (among other things) to the annexation of Matari space.
Manwe, I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but please, find some other justification. And while you're at it, explain to me how destroying Amarrian and Khanid society at its very foundations will be good for anyone - including the slaves. The whole reason I don't believe in mass, immediate emancipation is that I firmly believe that it'll do more harm than good. And no, I don't mean to their souls or any of that crap. No religious conversion attempted by force is worth a damn. |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
12
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Posted - 2012.04.05 13:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Garreck wrote:The fundamental concept has merrit. Certain equipment requires a license or permit to operate/own; basic fundamentals of ownership and responsibility should be demonstrated. Slave ownership is at least as heady a responsibility as, say, operating a pod interface. Wholeheartedly agreed. Mistreatment of slaves is one topic guaranteed to make me spit venom. Is it really so easy to forget that a slave is a person, too? In the State, improper conduct towards employees has consequences; an employer in the Federation who does something wrong faces both the media and the legal system; but here, nothing. I think it's fair to say that the lack of oversight is responsible for a huge amount of slave abuse - and thus a pretty large slice of the bad rep of the Empire in the cluster. Do you have evidence of this "huge amount of slave abuse?"
You misunderstand. 'A huge amount of the abuse of slaves', not 'a huge amount of abuse to slaves'. I'll stay out of the arguments about numbers, thanks. |
Manwe Todako
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
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Posted - 2012.04.05 14:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote: Manwe, I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but please, find some other justification. And while you're at it, explain to me how destroying Amarrian and Khanid society at its very foundations will be good for anyone - including the slaves. The whole reason I don't believe in mass, immediate emancipation is that I firmly believe that it'll do more harm than good. And no, I don't mean to their souls or any of that crap. No religious conversion attempted by force is worth a damn.
Your criticism is appreciated and presses an important issue. I believe Secular humanism and Religious humanism lead us to the same end point; the dignifying of all human persons. I will leave my own religious justifications at the door from now on and focus on the common humanistic end of freedom for all.
Restitution is a long, long, long process whereby the offending party commits all the time, resources and energy to right the wrong they have committed. The expense of restitution is in proportion to the wrong committed. Slave holding nations have enslaved billions over centuries. Restitution must involve a massive amount of time and expense to right this wrong.
Step One: The Empress et.al. need to declare slavery to be wrong (This will necessarily involve theological reformation) Step Two: Immediate emancipation of all slaves (This is a declarative act followed by enforcement) Step Three: Matriculation of those emancipated (This step will take decades to accomplish and will involve the commitment of massive resources, cooperation between the Republic, Empire, State, Kingdom, Federation. Matriculation is the process whereby those freed are brought into society in such a way that they are able to function as self-determined individuals and communities. The injustice of slavery is enormous; restitution must be equally enormous. And yes, the society and culture built on slavery must become a society and culture fundamentally reformed, and the end of this will be good for all. It must cease to be the culture it once was. A universal humanistic end must be embraced via religious humanism and/or secular humanism. Every slave holder must be required to spend the resources and time to see that those they once enslaved are enable to live free. The infrastructures of the combined nations of this cluster are far sufficient to accomplish this task if turned from greed and toward justice.
Is this an unattainable idealism? No. But, it is not easily attainable. Now the beginning has to be the speaking of three simple and direct words. SLAVERY IS WRONG! SANKOFA |
Dilaro thagriin
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
30
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Posted - 2012.04.05 14:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote: Do you have evidence of this "huge amount of slave abuse?"
Slavery
Specifically the 'methods of control' section. |
Vultirnus
Atlantic Evolution
13
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Posted - 2012.04.05 16:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
I don't see why everyone gets so up in arms about Amarrian slaves. A number of respectable nations were conquered as part of the reclaiming by the Empire, who quickly accepted Amarrian culture and were thus able to obtain Amarr citizenship. Those who continually are forced into slavery are doing so by choice. Simply submit to our ways and you too can achieve your freedom. "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - The Scriptures, Prophet Kuria, Paladin's Creed |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
817
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dilaro thagriin wrote:Rodj Blake wrote: Do you have evidence of this "huge amount of slave abuse?"
SlaverySpecifically the 'methods of control' section.
I think that most civilised societies punish transgression.
Punishment for misconduct is not abuse.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
244
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Manwe Todako wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Manwe Todako wrote:There is no discussion, people. To enslave another human is an abomination to God. God has not nor needs to call any people to enslave another. Slavery is not Godly and those who enslave others are disobeying God. Those who oppose slavery need to stop the soft peddle arguments. Take for instance the whole point of this thread in dividing slave holders into two groups: those who mistreat their slaves and those who don't. The truth? Every slave is mistreated by virtue of being a slave. Slavery is mistreatment.
I will probably repeat myself, but : even for enslaved criminal prisonners ? If yes, I do not follow your logic. Are we really doing this again? Are we really trying to equate the criminal prisoner with the slave? Is that an argument to continue slavery? Criminals go to prison in a just society. Would you have it otherwise? Please leave that argument in the grave where it belongs. Every free society has a criminal justice system whereby those who violate the inalienable rights of others are penalized and reformed.
And yet, you continue to confuse everything as the ignorant you are. This has never been about an argument to continue slavery, this is about you mixing together people enslaved or put in prison with the other slaves.
What is the difference between an enslaved criminal and a prisonner ? The former surely works for the society, while it is not always the case for the latter that often rots in his own cell, and costs as much as money as the former.
But I assumed that you conveniently forgot about that part when your disciples started to free every slave they met ? Or did they turned a blind eye on all the possible criminals that they actually released free in the wilderness ? What kind of humanitarian work do you do again ? |
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