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Col Callahan
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.07 02:45:00 -
[1]
Missiles are now completely worthless unless some serous last minute balancing is done. 5mill SP in missiles, what a wast of time and money that was now. _
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Vanthropy
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 02:47:00 -
[2]
QQ more "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up" |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.07 02:58:00 -
[3]
Then train turrets but you'll still be qq'ing. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
The Vixen
Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.07 03:11:00 -
[4]
Good, I'm glad I don't fly Caldari.
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Leyline777
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 04:20:00 -
[5]
dont worry blasters, drones and gallente are being nerfed to uselessness as well. Dont train anything!... --
My sig doesn't fit and the sig limit is ******ed >>. (yes this is a "jetcan".. get over it) |
Shard Merchant
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 04:54:00 -
[6]
If these changes prevent you from using missiles to great effect, then you weren't much of a player. Considering missiles were, and still are the quintessential newb weapon of EVE, I wouldn't be all that surprised. So, thank you for your completely irrelevant opinion. Know that people who've done more testing and calculation than you completely disagree.
Except on the 'last minute balancing' part. I'll go down for some more of that, but probably in the opposite direction. Fury, Rage and Standard Cruise need to have their capability reduced in certain areas.
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Phidell
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 06:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Then train Large AC's and Blasters but you'll still be qq'ing.
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Murk Loar
Polytope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Leyline777 dont worry blasters, drones and gallente are being nerfed to uselessness as well. Dont train anything!...
Market PVP LVL 5. |
Xenomorphea
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:06:00 -
[9]
Training mining lasers and drones. THOSE are not being nerfed. Yet.
Honestly, why does game balance have to be achieved through nerfing? From an RP point of view it is so stupid, it is like if technological progress would work backwards. Example: Inties and HACs travel too fast? Increase velocity of missiles and drones, or efficiency of webbers, etc. Instead, what CCP does is exactly the opposite.
Cheers, Xeno
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.07 08:09:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Allen Ramses on 07/11/2008 08:14:53
Originally by: Xenomorphea Inties and HACs travel too fast? Increase velocity of missiles and drones, or efficiency of webbers, etc.
CCP couldn't do that without confusing their physics engine (destiny, iirc). They could have addressed the overpowered nature of speed module/implant/skill stacking by reducing every module/implant/skill by 25%, while increasing base speed by 15%. People who would use a couple speed mods (i.e. Overdrives and MWD) would have been unaffected for the most part. While people who have souped up their ships to get every last ounce of speed they can muster will have a significant advantage above other ships, their maximum velocity would be around 60% of what was formerly possible. Also, changing webs to 75% / 80% would have been an appropriate fix.
However, they did not do that. Instead, they killed speed altogether.
EDIT: I really wish folks like myself could discuss balancing issues with the devs/design team without shelling out $2600 for a trip to Fanfest . ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.11.07 08:33:00 -
[11]
Well Missles needet a adjustment, especialy in the first design of the speed patch it was quite a bit broken, slowing everything down and prevent ships from hitting close leaved Missles as very strong short range weapon because they where able to actualy hit a Target.
Instead of fixing the gun Tracking close range with the new web, we got a Drone Nerf, Missle Nerf and im preaty shure we get a laser nerf also in the near future.
I personaly would disagree that it is a good solution if one thing sucks, nerf the rest till it sucks to, but this is just me I gess. If anything sucks, well we can call it ballanced again, but still everything sucks so why bother. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.11.07 08:35:00 -
[12]
Edited by: techzer0 on 07/11/2008 08:36:09
Originally by: Col Callahan Missiles are now completely worthless unless some serous last minute balancing is done. 5mill SP in missiles, what a wast of time and money that was now.
Oh noes.. 5 mil SP. Try a 34mil SP PVP character that is only useful for flying Falcons now. ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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mamolian
Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 08:47:00 -
[13]
**** caldari tbh -----------
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 08:50:00 -
[14]
How do ppl think missiles should be?.
Ive seen a lot of threads from missile users complaining about this nerf and from what i have seen missile suck just as bad as gunship do only slightly differently.
Missiles do low but steady dmg at any range and speed plus sig radius can reduce that dmg, while guns either hit or miss and range (with ammo) plus tracking issues dictate regularity of the hits.
Seems pretty balanced to me tbh.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.11.07 08:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: The Djego and im preaty shure we get a laser nerf also in the near future.
Yes, please.
CCP, are you listening?
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Murina How do ppl think missiles should be?
Originally by: Allen Ramses The basic foundation of missiles currently seem broken, IMO. Here are some figures that make more sense. For the explosive radius, I used the standard 40m, 125m, and 400m values. For explosion velocity, I used values from heavy frigs, cruisers, and battleships (Merlin, Moa, and Megathron were chosen for this). Current SiSi values are in normal text, more uniform values are bolded.
TYPE________RADIUS________EXPL VEL LIGHT_______50m (30m)________170m/s (270m/s) HEAVY_______125m (95m)_______81m/s (170m/s) CRUISE______300m (300m)______69m/s (105m/s)
REASONING: Guided missiles rely on signature to pinpoint the delivery of their high density, low yield explosive charges. Because of this nature, they aren't as capable at tracking faster targets. Further modification of guided missile prediction systems allow for a more precise delivery.
ROCKET________20m (40m)________85m/s (360m/s) ASSAULT_______125m (125m)______101m/s (225m/s) TORPEDO_______450m (400m)______71m/s (140m/s)
REASONING: Dumbfire missiles, while utilizing a motion predicting launcher, do not possess any independent guidance system. Instead, they rely on their low density, high yield explosive charges, to send massive shockwaves throughout the immediate area. Modification of navigation predicting algorithms on the missile allow for the explosives to detonate a wider, more coherent burst.
In a nutshell, new rules to separate guided and unguided missiles, while offering some much needed uniformity.
Frigates - 40m, 270m/s Cruisers - 125m, 170m/s Battleships - 400m, 105m/s
Guided missiles use a 25% smaller explosive radius than their respective resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are the base respective speeds. Affected by Guided Missile Precision, not affected by Target Navigation Prediction.
Unguided missiles use the same explosive radius as their respective standard resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are 33% higher than the base respective speeds. Affected by Target Navigation Prediction, not affected by Guided Missile Prediction.
This pretty much sums it up. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Murina How do ppl think missiles should be?
Originally by: Allen Ramses The basic foundation of missiles currently seem broken, IMO. Here are some figures that make more sense. For the explosive radius, I used the standard 40m, 125m, and 400m values. For explosion velocity, I used values from heavy frigs, cruisers, and battleships (Merlin, Moa, and Megathron were chosen for this). Current SiSi values are in normal text, more uniform values are bolded.
TYPE________RADIUS________EXPL VEL LIGHT_______50m (30m)________170m/s (270m/s) HEAVY_______125m (95m)_______81m/s (170m/s) CRUISE______300m (300m)______69m/s (105m/s)
REASONING: Guided missiles rely on signature to pinpoint the delivery of their high density, low yield explosive charges. Because of this nature, they aren't as capable at tracking faster targets. Further modification of guided missile prediction systems allow for a more precise delivery.
ROCKET________20m (40m)________85m/s (360m/s) ASSAULT_______125m (125m)______101m/s (225m/s) TORPEDO_______450m (400m)______71m/s (140m/s)
REASONING: Dumbfire missiles, while utilizing a motion predicting launcher, do not possess any independent guidance system. Instead, they rely on their low density, high yield explosive charges, to send massive shockwaves throughout the immediate area. Modification of navigation predicting algorithms on the missile allow for the explosives to detonate a wider, more coherent burst.
In a nutshell, new rules to separate guided and unguided missiles, while offering some much needed uniformity.
Frigates - 40m, 270m/s Cruisers - 125m, 170m/s Battleships - 400m, 105m/s
Guided missiles use a 25% smaller explosive radius than their respective resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are the base respective speeds. Affected by Guided Missile Precision, not affected by Target Navigation Prediction.
Unguided missiles use the same explosive radius as their respective standard resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are 33% higher than the base respective speeds. Affected by Target Navigation Prediction, not affected by Guided Missile Prediction.
This pretty much sums it up.
While im sure this means a lot to you il be honest and say im not much of a stat junkie and if i wanna test summat i hop on sissi find somebody with the appropriate skills and setup realistic combat scenarios with a variety of realistic fittings.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Murina While im sure this means a lot to you il be honest and say im not much of a stat junkie and if i wanna test summat i hop on sissi find somebody with the appropriate skills and setup realistic combat scenarios with a variety of realistic fittings.
Are you implying that I don't have appropriate skills, and I use unrealistic fittings with no variety? ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:47:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 07/11/2008 09:54:47 10 mill in missiles here, and I like the missile boost.
Allen, those numbers are meaningless.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Murina While im sure this means a lot to you il be honest and say im not much of a stat junkie and if i wanna test summat i hop on sissi find somebody with the appropriate skills and setup realistic combat scenarios with a variety of realistic fittings.
Are you implying that I don't have appropriate skills, and I use unrealistic fittings with no variety?
There's more than just two variables (expl. velocity and radius) at work, there's several multipliers and many, many more variables. Therefore stating just 2 of them doesn't tell the whole story.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.07 10:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tzar'rim There's more than just two variables (expl. velocity and radius) at work, there's several multipliers and many, many more variables. Therefore stating just 2 of them doesn't tell the whole story.
These two variables are precisely the issue, as the other variables don't come into play until these are processed. By looking at the table I provided, you can see the explosion radii are close enough to what I think would be the appropriate values. However, the same can not be said about the explosion velocities. As it is now, a light missile will get a significant damage reduction if the target is moving faster than 170m/s (212.5 m/s with max skills), something easily achieved without so much as an afterburner. Essentially, this makes two midslots mandatory for hitting the same size target with no mitigation. Four if you use rage/fury. You can't deny that the explosion velocities are severely imbalanced. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.07 10:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Allen Ramses As it is now, a light missile will get a significant damage reduction if the target is moving faster than 170m/s (212.5 m/s with max skills), something easily achieved without so much as an afterburner.
Only if the target's sig is not larger than the missile explosion radius.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.07 11:47:00 -
[23]
Missile: Sabretooth light missile Exp Rad: 50m @ 37.5m (GMP V) Exp Vel: 170m/s @ 212.5 (TNP V) dmg red: 2.8
Target: Rifter (unfit) Sig Rad: 35m Max Vel: 353m/s @ 441.25 (Navigation V)
I will plug in the values to the following equation. Damage % = (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(0.21447 * drf)
Damage % = ||((212.5/37.5) * (35/441.25))^(0.21447 * 2.8)|| Damage % = ||(5.6667 * 0.07932) ^ 0.6|| Damage % = ||0.4495 ^ 0.6|| Damage % = ||0.6189|| Damage % = 61.89%
The light missile, which is designed to take out frigates, has its damage reduced 38.11% by a combat frigate which has no speed modifications and just traveling at full velocity.
Do I REALLY need to continue? ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.07 11:58:00 -
[24]
Yes. Tell us what it means in a combat situation.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:28:00 -
[25]
he went with raven to shoot afs and cruisers and started whining how he can pown them.
Quote: It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.11.07 13:12:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 07/11/2008 13:12:35
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 07/11/2008 12:14:11
Yes. Tell us what it means in a plausible combat situation, and then compare that with the effectiveness of non-missile ships in a comparable situation. Otherwise the raw numbers are fairly meaningless.
small guns have problems tracking frigates moving at just full engine speed with no AB/MWD/speed mod ?
instead of fixing a property difference between guns and missiles, the devs only nerf missiles ...
once at optimal and shooting the right target, guns don't (or should not) have a problem hitting. however since missiles hit the same at all ranges, they seem to be balanced by a static reduction in DPS to compare to a bad case scenarion of turrets.
however tracking is a variable influenced by BOTH participants (you can fly your ship to maximize and also minimize transversal) speed is only affected by the target (sure you can web him, but that's same for turrets).
so actualy turret users have more options they can employ to maximize their damage where missiles have none and missiles still have less DPS. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 13:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
small guns have problems tracking frigates moving at just full engine speed with no AB/MWD/speed mod ?
LR guns (which are the same missile class as light missiles) do, of course.
Webs are needed in the post patch world to do full DPS to targets. Which does hurt long range missiles, significantly more then short range missiles.
Although missiles still have a advantage for shooting smaller ships in webrange. Turrets do 0 damage without double webs + disabling the AB of your opponent (read: 2x web + neut), while missiles still do nonzero DPS to webbed frigates (probably 1/5 or 1/6).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.07 13:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka so actualy turret users have more options they can employ to maximize their damage where missiles have none and missiles still have less DPS.
Apart from webs, Crash, target painters and manual flight, you mean? And the "less DPS" is an EFT number - you need to account for range.
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Webs are needed in the post patch world to do full DPS to targets. Which does hurt long range missiles, significantly more then short range missiles.
Reminds me of TQ Burn Eden tactics: minmatar recon + long range missile snipers. So no, with proper tactics it's not hurting long range missiles :)
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Originally by: Cpt Branko Webs are needed in the post patch world to do full DPS to targets. Which does hurt long range missiles, significantly more then short range missiles.
Reminds me of TQ Burn Eden tactics: minmatar recon + long range missile snipers. So no, with proper tactics it's not hurting long range missiles :)
Well, yes.
It does nerf things like RR armour tanked cruise ravens fit to fire on Falcons and such (ECM / long-range ship interdiction) and such.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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