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Col Callahan Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.07 02:45:00 - [1] Missiles are now completely worthless unless some serous last minute balancing is done. 5mill SP in missiles, what a wast of time and money that was now. _
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 02:47:00 - [2] QQ more "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.07 02:58:00 - [3] Then train turrets but you'll still be qq'ing. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
The Vixen Coalition of Nations	Posted - 2008.11.07 03:11:00 - [4] Good, I'm glad I don't fly Caldari.
Leyline777 Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.07 04:20:00 - [5] dont worry blasters, drones and gallente are being nerfed to uselessness as well. Dont train anything!... -- My sig doesn't fit and the sig limit is ******ed >>. (yes this is a "jetcan".. get over it)
Shard Merchant Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 04:54:00 - [6] If these changes prevent you from using missiles to great effect, then you weren't much of a player. Considering missiles were, and still are the quintessential newb weapon of EVE, I wouldn't be all that surprised. So, thank you for your completely irrelevant opinion. Know that people who've done more testing and calculation than you completely disagree. Except on the 'last minute balancing' part. I'll go down for some more of that, but probably in the opposite direction. Fury, Rage and Standard Cruise need to have their capability reduced in certain areas.
Phidell Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.07 06:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Then train Large AC's and Blasters but you'll still be qq'ing.
Murk Loar Polytope	Posted - 2008.11.07 07:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Leyline777 dont worry blasters, drones and gallente are being nerfed to uselessness as well. Dont train anything!... Market PVP LVL 5.
Xenomorphea Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.07 07:06:00 - [9] Training mining lasers and drones. THOSE are not being nerfed. Yet. Honestly, why does game balance have to be achieved through nerfing? From an RP point of view it is so stupid, it is like if technological progress would work backwards. Example: Inties and HACs travel too fast? Increase velocity of missiles and drones, or efficiency of webbers, etc. Instead, what CCP does is exactly the opposite. Cheers, Xeno
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:09:00 - [10] Edited by: Allen Ramses on 07/11/2008 08:14:53 Originally by: Xenomorphea Inties and HACs travel too fast? Increase velocity of missiles and drones, or efficiency of webbers, etc. CCP couldn't do that without confusing their physics engine (destiny, iirc). They could have addressed the overpowered nature of speed module/implant/skill stacking by reducing every module/implant/skill by 25%, while increasing base speed by 15%. People who would use a couple speed mods (i.e. Overdrives and MWD) would have been unaffected for the most part. While people who have souped up their ships to get every last ounce of speed they can muster will have a significant advantage above other ships, their maximum velocity would be around 60% of what was formerly possible. Also, changing webs to 75% / 80% would have been an appropriate fix. However, they did not do that. Instead, they killed speed altogether. EDIT: I really wish folks like myself could discuss balancing issues with the devs/design team without shelling out $2600 for a trip to Fanfest . ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:33:00 - [11] Well Missles needet a adjustment, especialy in the first design of the speed patch it was quite a bit broken, slowing everything down and prevent ships from hitting close leaved Missles as very strong short range weapon because they where able to actualy hit a Target. Instead of fixing the gun Tracking close range with the new web, we got a Drone Nerf, Missle Nerf and im preaty shure we get a laser nerf also in the near future. I personaly would disagree that it is a good solution if one thing sucks, nerf the rest till it sucks to, but this is just me I gess. If anything sucks, well we can call it ballanced again, but still everything sucks so why bother. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:35:00 - [12] Edited by: techzer0 on 07/11/2008 08:36:09 Originally by: Col Callahan Missiles are now completely worthless unless some serous last minute balancing is done. 5mill SP in missiles, what a wast of time and money that was now. Oh noes.. 5 mil SP. Try a 34mil SP PVP character that is only useful for flying Falcons now. ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
mamolian Madhatters Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:47:00 - [13] **** caldari tbh -----------
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:50:00 - [14] How do ppl think missiles should be?. Ive seen a lot of threads from missile users complaining about this nerf and from what i have seen missile suck just as bad as gunship do only slightly differently. Missiles do low but steady dmg at any range and speed plus sig radius can reduce that dmg, while guns either hit or miss and range (with ammo) plus tracking issues dictate regularity of the hits. Seems pretty balanced to me tbh.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:53:00 - [15] Originally by: The Djego and im preaty shure we get a laser nerf also in the near future. Yes, please. CCP, are you listening?
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 09:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Murina How do ppl think missiles should be? Originally by: Allen Ramses The basic foundation of missiles currently seem broken, IMO. Here are some figures that make more sense. For the explosive radius, I used the standard 40m, 125m, and 400m values. For explosion velocity, I used values from heavy frigs, cruisers, and battleships (Merlin, Moa, and Megathron were chosen for this). Current SiSi values are in normal text, more uniform values are bolded. TYPE________RADIUS________EXPL VEL LIGHT_______50m (30m)________170m/s (270m/s) HEAVY_______125m (95m)_______81m/s (170m/s) CRUISE______300m (300m)______69m/s (105m/s) REASONING: Guided missiles rely on signature to pinpoint the delivery of their high density, low yield explosive charges. Because of this nature, they aren't as capable at tracking faster targets. Further modification of guided missile prediction systems allow for a more precise delivery. ROCKET________20m (40m)________85m/s (360m/s) ASSAULT_______125m (125m)______101m/s (225m/s) TORPEDO_______450m (400m)______71m/s (140m/s) REASONING: Dumbfire missiles, while utilizing a motion predicting launcher, do not possess any independent guidance system. Instead, they rely on their low density, high yield explosive charges, to send massive shockwaves throughout the immediate area. Modification of navigation predicting algorithms on the missile allow for the explosives to detonate a wider, more coherent burst. In a nutshell, new rules to separate guided and unguided missiles, while offering some much needed uniformity. Frigates - 40m, 270m/s Cruisers - 125m, 170m/s Battleships - 400m, 105m/s Guided missiles use a 25% smaller explosive radius than their respective resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are the base respective speeds. Affected by Guided Missile Precision, not affected by Target Navigation Prediction. Unguided missiles use the same explosive radius as their respective standard resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are 33% higher than the base respective speeds. Affected by Target Navigation Prediction, not affected by Guided Missile Prediction. This pretty much sums it up. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.07 09:24:00 - [17] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Murina How do ppl think missiles should be? Originally by: Allen Ramses The basic foundation of missiles currently seem broken, IMO. Here are some figures that make more sense. For the explosive radius, I used the standard 40m, 125m, and 400m values. For explosion velocity, I used values from heavy frigs, cruisers, and battleships (Merlin, Moa, and Megathron were chosen for this). Current SiSi values are in normal text, more uniform values are bolded. TYPE________RADIUS________EXPL VEL LIGHT_______50m (30m)________170m/s (270m/s) HEAVY_______125m (95m)_______81m/s (170m/s) CRUISE______300m (300m)______69m/s (105m/s) REASONING: Guided missiles rely on signature to pinpoint the delivery of their high density, low yield explosive charges. Because of this nature, they aren't as capable at tracking faster targets. Further modification of guided missile prediction systems allow for a more precise delivery. ROCKET________20m (40m)________85m/s (360m/s) ASSAULT_______125m (125m)______101m/s (225m/s) TORPEDO_______450m (400m)______71m/s (140m/s) REASONING: Dumbfire missiles, while utilizing a motion predicting launcher, do not possess any independent guidance system. Instead, they rely on their low density, high yield explosive charges, to send massive shockwaves throughout the immediate area. Modification of navigation predicting algorithms on the missile allow for the explosives to detonate a wider, more coherent burst. In a nutshell, new rules to separate guided and unguided missiles, while offering some much needed uniformity. Frigates - 40m, 270m/s Cruisers - 125m, 170m/s Battleships - 400m, 105m/s Guided missiles use a 25% smaller explosive radius than their respective resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are the base respective speeds. Affected by Guided Missile Precision, not affected by Target Navigation Prediction. Unguided missiles use the same explosive radius as their respective standard resolution sizes. Explosion velocities are 33% higher than the base respective speeds. Affected by Target Navigation Prediction, not affected by Guided Missile Prediction. This pretty much sums it up. While im sure this means a lot to you il be honest and say im not much of a stat junkie and if i wanna test summat i hop on sissi find somebody with the appropriate skills and setup realistic combat scenarios with a variety of realistic fittings.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 09:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Murina While im sure this means a lot to you il be honest and say im not much of a stat junkie and if i wanna test summat i hop on sissi find somebody with the appropriate skills and setup realistic combat scenarios with a variety of realistic fittings. Are you implying that I don't have appropriate skills, and I use unrealistic fittings with no variety? ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.07 09:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Gypsio III on 07/11/2008 09:54:47 10 mill in missiles here, and I like the missile boost. Allen, those numbers are meaningless.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.07 09:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Murina While im sure this means a lot to you il be honest and say im not much of a stat junkie and if i wanna test summat i hop on sissi find somebody with the appropriate skills and setup realistic combat scenarios with a variety of realistic fittings. Are you implying that I don't have appropriate skills, and I use unrealistic fittings with no variety? There's more than just two variables (expl. velocity and radius) at work, there's several multipliers and many, many more variables. Therefore stating just 2 of them doesn't tell the whole story.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 10:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Tzar'rim There's more than just two variables (expl. velocity and radius) at work, there's several multipliers and many, many more variables. Therefore stating just 2 of them doesn't tell the whole story. These two variables are precisely the issue, as the other variables don't come into play until these are processed. By looking at the table I provided, you can see the explosion radii are close enough to what I think would be the appropriate values. However, the same can not be said about the explosion velocities. As it is now, a light missile will get a significant damage reduction if the target is moving faster than 170m/s (212.5 m/s with max skills), something easily achieved without so much as an afterburner. Essentially, this makes two midslots mandatory for hitting the same size target with no mitigation. Four if you use rage/fury. You can't deny that the explosion velocities are severely imbalanced. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.07 10:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Allen Ramses As it is now, a light missile will get a significant damage reduction if the target is moving faster than 170m/s (212.5 m/s with max skills), something easily achieved without so much as an afterburner. Only if the target's sig is not larger than the missile explosion radius.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 11:47:00 - [23] Missile: Sabretooth light missile Exp Rad: 50m @ 37.5m (GMP V) Exp Vel: 170m/s @ 212.5 (TNP V) dmg red: 2.8 Target: Rifter (unfit) Sig Rad: 35m Max Vel: 353m/s @ 441.25 (Navigation V) I will plug in the values to the following equation. Damage % = (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(0.21447 * drf) Damage % = \|\|((212.5/37.5) * (35/441.25))^(0.21447 * 2.8)\|\| Damage % = \|\|(5.6667 * 0.07932) ^ 0.6\|\| Damage % = \|\|0.4495 ^ 0.6\|\| Damage % = \|\|0.6189\|\| Damage % = 61.89% The light missile, which is designed to take out frigates, has its damage reduced 38.11% by a combat frigate which has no speed modifications and just traveling at full velocity. Do I REALLY need to continue? ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.07 11:58:00 - [24] Yes. Tell us what it means in a combat situation.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 12:28:00 - [25] he went with raven to shoot afs and cruisers and started whining how he can pown them. Quote: It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:12:00 - [26] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 07/11/2008 13:12:35 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 07/11/2008 12:14:11 Yes. Tell us what it means in a plausible combat situation, and then compare that with the effectiveness of non-missile ships in a comparable situation. Otherwise the raw numbers are fairly meaningless. small guns have problems tracking frigates moving at just full engine speed with no AB/MWD/speed mod ? instead of fixing a property difference between guns and missiles, the devs only nerf missiles ... once at optimal and shooting the right target, guns don't (or should not) have a problem hitting. however since missiles hit the same at all ranges, they seem to be balanced by a static reduction in DPS to compare to a bad case scenarion of turrets. however tracking is a variable influenced by BOTH participants (you can fly your ship to maximize and also minimize transversal) speed is only affected by the target (sure you can web him, but that's same for turrets). so actualy turret users have more options they can employ to maximize their damage where missiles have none and missiles still have less DPS. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Hugh Ruka small guns have problems tracking frigates moving at just full engine speed with no AB/MWD/speed mod ? LR guns (which are the same missile class as light missiles) do, of course. Webs are needed in the post patch world to do full DPS to targets. Which does hurt long range missiles, significantly more then short range missiles. Although missiles still have a advantage for shooting smaller ships in webrange. Turrets do 0 damage without double webs + disabling the AB of your opponent (read: 2x web + neut), while missiles still do nonzero DPS to webbed frigates (probably 1/5 or 1/6). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Hugh Ruka so actualy turret users have more options they can employ to maximize their damage where missiles have none and missiles still have less DPS. Apart from webs, Crash, target painters and manual flight, you mean? And the "less DPS" is an EFT number - you need to account for range.
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Cpt Branko Webs are needed in the post patch world to do full DPS to targets. Which does hurt long range missiles, significantly more then short range missiles. Reminds me of TQ Burn Eden tactics: minmatar recon + long range missile snipers. So no, with proper tactics it's not hurting long range missiles :)
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Originally by: Cpt Branko Webs are needed in the post patch world to do full DPS to targets. Which does hurt long range missiles, significantly more then short range missiles. Reminds me of TQ Burn Eden tactics: minmatar recon + long range missile snipers. So no, with proper tactics it's not hurting long range missiles :) Well, yes. It does nerf things like RR armour tanked cruise ravens fit to fire on Falcons and such (ECM / long-range ship interdiction) and such. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jas Dor Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Allen Ramses Edited by: Allen Ramses on 07/11/2008 11:58:00 Missile: Sabretooth light missile Exp Rad: 50m @ 37.5m (GMP V) Exp Vel: 170m/s @ 212.5 (TNP V) dmg red: 2.8 Target: Rifter (unfit) Sig Rad: 35m Max Vel: 353m/s @ 441.25 (Navigation V) I will plug in the values to the following equation. Damage % = (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(0.21447 * drf) Damage % = \|\|((212.5/37.5) * (35/441.25))^(0.21447 * 2.8)\|\| Damage % = \|\|(5.6667 * 0.07932) ^ 0.6\|\| Damage % = \|\|0.4495 ^ 0.6\|\| Damage % = \|\|0.6189\|\| Damage % = 61.89% The light missile, which is designed to take out frigates, has its damage reduced 38.11% by a combat frigate which has no speed modifications and just traveling at full velocity. Do I REALLY need to continue? EDIT: Plugging in the values with the values from my idea of doing it (30m @ 22.5 / 270) yields 97% damage. Why yes missiles have a problem hitting a Rifter, one of the outperforming ships of the frig class known for having some of the highest velocities and lowest sig of any of the combat frigs. On the other hand it looks like you should be plugging a Tristan or Merlin for full damage, at least until a speed mod kicks in. TBH if you want to kill a frig either fit rockets or go get a destroyer. Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU!
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 20:00:00 - [32] oh noes! every weapon system is useless.... oh noes! every ship is slower OHNOES! webs are no longer insta-gib for large ships vs. small ships! sounds like it's working as intended by CCP and I commend them. stop whining and learn to adapt, from an RP perspective... no that doesn't function hear unless you take out the fact that it's a game and they are reworking how combat should work. no caldari isn't telling you... well we just thought our missiles should be slower and even less effective against smaller ships. "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 21:49:00 - [33] Originally by: Jas Dor Why yes missiles have a problem hitting a Rifter, one of the outperforming ships of the frig class known for having some of the highest velocities and lowest sig of any of the combat frigs. On the other hand it looks like you should be plugging a Tristan or Merlin for full damage, at least until a speed mod kicks in. TBH if you want to kill a frig either fit rockets or go get a destroyer. If I wanted to use a minnie frigate just to skew the results, I would have used a slasher, which suffers a 51% damage mitigation. Under my values, it would suffer a 19.5% mitigation, a much more reasonable result, imo. Oh, and as for the slowboat merlin, which has the lowest damage mitigation of any combat oriented frigate in the game, suffers a 21% damage mitigation. What was that you were saying about full damage? ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:22:00 - [34] Heavy missiles hit me going 3000 m/s for full damage with a MWD going. The bigger the sig radius the more likely to hit. Get a target painter.
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:30:00 - [35] Originally by: Allen Ramses Oh, and as for the slowboat merlin, which has the lowest damage mitigation of any combat oriented frigate in the game, suffers a 21% damage mitigation. What was that you were saying about full damage? OK, so that Merlin is at 40KM firing on the Rifter, which is taking 60% damage. At this point, how much damage is the Rifter putting out to the Merlin? Why, 0%, which is worse than 60%. Now this Rifter is moving at 400m/s, and the Merlin is probably flying away at 280 m/s (with perfect nav skills). Let's AB both, 1000 vs 660. So the Rifter can close at 340m per second. Ok, with T2 200mm Optimal + Falloff (50% damage) is 5.8 KM (perfect skills), and I assume the Merlin is now only putting out 30-40% with the AB?. So to close 34 KM at 340m/s would take 100 secs, 1min40 secs, before the Rifter started doing 50% damage. Explain why a Merlin should put out 100% DPS at 40KM when the Rifter cannot even do 1% at 12KM?
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:32:00 - [36] Something tells me you really don't know what you're talking about. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:41:00 - [37] Originally by: Allen Ramses Something tells me you really don't know what you're talking about. No, I am genuinely interested why you believe missiles should be long range damage dealers, when the equivalents in turrets do not work that way. What alternatives do you believe the Rifter should have to mitigate missile damage?
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:45:00 - [38] I've got no problem with a base damage rebalance... In fact, I think it needs one. Rockets have almost identical dps over light missiles, but torpedos have 85% more dps over cruises. My objection is that missiles of any kind now have difficulty dealing appropriate damage to the size of ship they were designed to hit. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK.	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:46:00 - [39] Originally by: Shard Merchant If these changes prevent you from using missiles to great effect, then you weren't much of a player. Considering missiles were, and still are the quintessential newb weapon of EVE, I wouldn't be all that surprised. If only Liang were here now. August Guns
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Allen Ramses I've got no problem with a base damage rebalance... In fact, I think it needs one. Rockets have almost identical dps over light missiles, but torpedos have 85% more dps over cruises. My objection is that missiles of any kind now have difficulty dealing appropriate damage to the size of ship they were designed to hit. As do long range turrets. Small turrets do not hit small ships for 100% damage in all circumstances. In fact, if a frigate were to orbit an Artillery firing Rifter at 1 to 3 KM with an afterburner (doing 800-1000 m/s), you would be doing less than 10% of your DPS. Even a frig orbiting with no AB at 1KM at 400 m/s, artillery will be doing less than 10% damamge. And Artillery optimal is only 6KM, with 50% damage at 17KM, with 1% at 23KM. Once again, long range missiles do 60% from 40KM all the way to 0KM with a frigate moving 400 m/s. Explain why you feel missiles should do more damage than the turret equivalents, turrets DO NOT HIT the same size ship for 100% damage
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.07 23:20:00 - [41] Originally by: SecHaul As do long range turrets. Small turrets do not hit small ships for 100% damage in all circumstances. In fact, if a frigate were to orbit an Artillery firing Rifter at 1 to 3 KM with an afterburner (doing 800-1000 m/s), you would be doing less than 10% of your DPS. Even a frig orbiting with no AB at 1KM at 400 m/s, artillery will be doing less than 10% damamge. First of all, if you're stupid enough to stand still to allow a frig without an AB to orbit you at 1km going 400m/s, you don't deserve to deal any damage. Period. Secondly, when two ships are in near synchronous orbit with eachother, transversal is very low. Quote: And Artillery optimal is only 6KM, with 50% damage at 17KM, with 1% at 23KM. Once again, long range missiles do 60% from 40KM all the way to 0KM with a frigate moving 400 m/s. Explain why you feel missiles should do more damage than the turret equivalents, turrets DO NOT HIT the same size ship for 100% damage And now you're just making **** up. With 250mm Arty II w/ Depleted Uranium (one of my favorite ammo types), optimal is 12k, 50% damage at 23km and 1% at 34km. With 280mm arty IIs, it's 15k optimal, 26k 50%, and 37k 1%. And you're right. Turrets don't hit the same size ship for 100% damage, they hit for 60% - 240% damage. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.11.08 04:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Allen Ramses First of all, if you're stupid enough to stand still to allow a frig without an AB to orbit you at 1km going 400m/s, you don't deserve to deal any damage. Period. Secondly, when two ships are in near synchronous orbit with eachother, transversal is very low. Quote: And Artillery optimal is only 6KM, with 50% damage at 17KM, with 1% at 23KM. Once again, long range missiles do 60% from 40KM all the way to 0KM with a frigate moving 400 m/s. Explain why you feel missiles should do more damage than the turret equivalents, turrets DO NOT HIT the same size ship for 100% damage And now you're just making **** up. With 250mm Arty II w/ Depleted Uranium (one of my favorite ammo types), optimal is 12k, 50% damage at 23km and 1% at 34km. With 280mm arty IIs, it's 15k optimal, 26k 50%, and 37k 1%. And you're right. Turrets don't hit the same size ship for 100% damage, they hit for 60% - 240% damage. Firstly, BS on the orbit, you get 2 frigs orbitting each other at 1 KM and see if you can keep transversal down, do you even play this game? So, even with Uranium, which has a reduced damage output, can only hit 1% at 34 KM. While your suggestion for missiles is to hit 97% at 40 KM, all the way to 0 KM, WITH NO ABILITY TO REDUCE DAMAGE. Turrets will never hit at 97% damage unless both targets are stationery, or are directly approaching. In orbit, ANY transversal is reduced damage output. You think a frig orbitting a frig with artilleries will have the artillery boat doing 60-240% damage? Sir, you are playing a different game. Just admit it, your recommendation for missiles is over-powered, you want more damage and more range without any ability to reduce it.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.08 05:12:00 - [43] I said synchronous orbit, not opposing orbit. Subtle difference. Furthermore, why the hell would you want to orbit that close with long range ammunition anyhow? Also, let's not forget that 250 II Arties have a higher DPS than missiles, and that's just with the basic ammunition type (40% more with EMP). Also, don't forget well aimed, excellent, and perfect damage multiplers. Anyway, perhaps my values are too liberal. However, you can not deny that 41% damage reduction against the ship it was designed to hit without so much as an overdrive or burner is WAY too much. What, may I ask, is YOUR solution to the problem? ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
XSarah	Posted - 2008.11.08 05:26:00 - [44] lolololol Carebears cry about nano and end up getting themselves nerfed in the process --- lololol suck on that
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.08 05:29:00 - [45] Originally by: XSarah lolololol Carebears cry about nano and end up getting themselves nerfed in the process --- lololol suck on that Idiot. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Product Number 3	Posted - 2008.11.08 06:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: XSarah lolololol Carebears cry about nano and end up getting themselves nerfed in the process --- lololol suck on that Idiot. I doubt missiles will stay this nerfed. When it hits live and everyone sees what's happened, there's gonna be a riot.
Vitrael Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.11.08 06:54:00 - [47] If you think the missile crowd is gonna be ****ed, wait'll you see the blaster crowd. The Rapier crowd. The Battleship crowd. The Nano crowd. Basically every single crowd except gate campers. -----
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.08 07:43:00 - [48] Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: XSarah lolololol Carebears cry about nano and end up getting themselves nerfed in the process --- lololol suck on that Idiot. I doubt missiles will stay this nerfed. When it hits live and everyone sees what's happened, there's gonna be a riot. missiles have been "balanced" and as the ppl told the nano pilots "they are broken and they have been fixed" i suggest you adapt.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Product Number 3	Posted - 2008.11.08 09:24:00 - [49] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: XSarah lolololol Carebears cry about nano and end up getting themselves nerfed in the process --- lololol suck on that Idiot. I doubt missiles will stay this nerfed. When it hits live and everyone sees what's happened, there's gonna be a riot. missiles have been "balanced" and as the ppl told the nano pilots "they are broken and they have been fixed" i suggest you adapt. Already have, switched back to ECM. Think alot of missile users will do the same when they're not *****ing about the changes. The fact remains the changes are awful, and as Zulupark admitted in his question and answer, they listen to the forums first for balance suggestions. Hopefully they're reading these.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.11.08 09:34:00 - [50] Yeah. They have been fixed, just like nanos. Both the fixes were akin to taking a sledgehammer to a spider on your brand new car. Your windshield may be shattered, but at least the spider is dead. And damn, I never realized how hard balancing was. Goes back to excel to manipulate explosion velocities and damage reduction multipliers. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.11.08 10:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Vanthropy oh noes! every weapon system is useless.... oh noes! every ship is slower OHNOES! webs are no longer insta-gib for large ships vs. small ships! I agree, instajib isn't good. But then again, neither is a poorly fitted HAC taking down a BS. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.11.08 10:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Vitrael If you think the missile crowd is gonna be **ed, wait'll you see the blaster crowd. The Rapier crowd. The Battleship crowd. The Nano crowd. Basically every single crowd except gate campers. Not realy right, since you will now need a very specefic Camp to stop ships from getting back to the gate, thx to the 60% Web. Tackling something solo at a gate that got a MWD is next to impossible. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Terra Mikael Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.11.08 11:38:00 - [53] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Vitrael If you think the missile crowd is gonna be ****ed, wait'll you see the blaster crowd. The Rapier crowd. The Battleship crowd. The Nano crowd. Basically every single crowd except gate campers. Not realy right, since you will now need a very specefic Camp to stop ships from getting back to the gate, thx to the 60% Web. Tackling something solo at a gate that got a MWD is next to impossible. Enter Arazu.
Destructor1792 Minmatar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.11.08 12:00:00 - [54] Edited by: Destructor1792 on 08/11/2008 12:01:32 Another Thread which made me "LOL" All it sounds like to me (and probably most of CCP) is the majority of missile users who are complaining haven't bothered training up for turrets! Either that, or they rely on their 1 fit / 1 Ship setup which no longer works To say missiles are underpowered you really should compare them to turrets so: 1. Missiles hit - Every time (and slower speeds mean more hits) 2. Turrets miss/hit/glance/wrecking/lightly 1. Missile user gets ECM'd - swaps to FOF's, continues spamming 2. Turret user gets ECM'd - NO dps (out the fight) 1. Missiles have no mods that disrupt their tracking (guess really u need one for speed or ROF) 2. Turrets have mods which disrupt their tracking (i.e Tracking Disruptor) That's just off the top of my head! Now I am still against all the stupid changes that CCP are determined to push through but guess what.. I'm adapting. I dunno, it's as if all the ships can only fit missiles and not turrets /me goes grab a coffee & waits for more amusing posts ______________________________________ Bringing The Fun Back I Have No Fear, Fear is for the WEAK
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.11.08 14:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Allen Ramses Edited by: Allen Ramses on 08/11/2008 05:27:06 I said synchronous orbit, not opposing orbit. Subtle difference. Furthermore, why the hell would you want to orbit that close with long range ammunition anyhow? Also, let's not forget that 250 II Arties have a higher DPS than missiles, and that's just with the basic ammunition type (40% more with EMP). Also, don't forget well aimed, excellent, and perfect damage multiplers. Anyway, perhaps my values are too liberal. However, you can not deny that 41% damage reduction against the ship it was designed to hit without so much as an overdrive or burner is WAY too much. What, may I ask, is YOUR solution to the problem? EDIT: I could change some numbers around, maybe I can find some values for the damage reduction multiplier. I don't see a problem, hence I propose no solution? I think the missile reduction brings them in line with turrets. If you wish to solve your problem, fit precisions. It halves your range, but increases your explosion velocity, you can fire from 40KM, and when the Rifter is within 20KM after a minute of taking a pounding, swap out and bump your damage. Secondly, as an artillery boat, I wouldn't try orbit, but I'm sure the opponent if fit for close range would want to. If you were in a 40KM kestrel, why would you want to fight at 1 KM? You would keep the 5KM rifter at 40KM, or at 20KM for the point. You would deal 60% damage, and receive a massive 0%. What you don't realize is that missiles do damage from max range to min range. Turrets do not get the same range, do not do as much damage as max range, have a sweet spot where they do more damage, and then at very close range getting tracking issue reductions. Wrecking hits are a massive 1% of the time, yes it has an impact, but minimal impact. If there is NO counter for missiles (and defenders are a joke), and you propose that missiles do 97% damage from a range further than the equivalent of turrets, all the way to 0KM, how is that not over-powered? That is what spawned nano's, because extreme speed was the only damage mitigation available. Extreme speed was nerfed, and suddenly missiles became uber, which in turn, were balanced. I admit that even with testing on SISI I cannot anticipate the impact on TQ, but the first few months will be interesting. I'm a minmatar pilot, so I have taken a beating to speed, my webs, and since I have 'flexibility' (split weapons), even my missiles. However, it's also boosting small ships, and that's one area where Minmatar should be OK.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.11.08 15:22:00 - [56] Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: XSarah lolololol Carebears cry about nano and end up getting themselves nerfed in the process --- lololol suck on that Idiot. I doubt missiles will stay this nerfed. When it hits live and everyone sees what's happened, there's gonna be a riot. and every old player that has already adapted will hold their stomachs - putting the gist back into logistics
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.08 15:25:00 - [57] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/11/2008 15:25:34 Originally by: Terra Mikael Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Vitrael If you think the missile crowd is gonna be **ed, wait'll you see the blaster crowd. The Rapier crowd. The Battleship crowd. The Nano crowd. Basically every single crowd except gate campers. Not realy right, since you will now need a very specefic Camp to stop ships from getting back to the gate, thx to the 60% Web. Tackling something solo at a gate that got a MWD is next to impossible. Enter Arazu. Arazu/Lachersis, thanks to the fact MWD is cutoff immediately, make it 100% impossible to reapproach gates. Camping in a blob just got boosted, not nerfed. Originally by:** Murina PS: I ALSO THINK THE ENTIRE PATCH SUCKS. This. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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