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Please, for the love of god, nerf cloaks

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slothe Caldari Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.07 12:22:00 - [1] (this mainly, but not exclusively is aimed at 0.0 pvp) With the advent of QR lots of changes are being introduced. These imho, were long overdue, in particular the nerfing of webs (not speed) that i have argued for years. The changes will mean that roaming gangs will have to adapt, and be less reliant on speed fitted ships (a good thing imho). There will still be speed ships but the are unlikely to be as prevelant as before (but i guess we will see). Alongside the QR changes, local nerf is being talked about, and it is likely that local will be changed in the near future. I have this nervous fear that the way a lot of pvp groups will "adapt" to QR (and more rapidly if / when local is changed) is to rely much more heavily on cloaks than at present. This would, in my view, lead to many gangs camping gates and areas in 0.0 (possibly with black ops support). If this happens 0.0 pvp will no longer be fun AT ALL. Cloaks used to drive me mad when they started to be used by isk farmers / playes on ratting ravens in 0.0 (which no-one else seemed particularly bothered about tbh). I can see them being much more prevelant than they are now. Im open to suggestions as to what to do with them, use fuel maybe, decloak radius based on size of ship, bigger fitting penalty / use penalty, whatever. Please take a pro-active approach and prevent the problem before it arises
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.11.07 12:48:00 - [2] Originally by: slothe gangs camping gates and areas in 0.0 (possibly with black ops support). If this happens 0.0 pvp will no longer be fun AT ALL ^^ Seriously? No really, are you trolling? IMO Cloaks shouldn't be on non-cloaky ships. At all. CLoaking ratting Ravens chepaen the abilities of ships designed to be cloakers; requesting Cloak Raven is better than SB Merin thread.
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.11.07 12:48:00 - [3] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 07/11/2008 12:49:04 I can not see a problem with it. They work fine, and you alredy get a penalty by using them, you can not do anything while cloked and it rakes a lon time do do anything when you uncloak. Cloaking Raven is not any differnt from any ranged ship wanting to cloak.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.11.07 12:48:00 - [4] I see some merit there. I dont think ships that use a covert ops cloak need a nerf - you make enough trade offs to use one. But normal cloaks could probably stand a nerf. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2008.11.07 12:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Ghoest I see some merit there. I dont think ships that use a covert ops cloak need a nerf - you make enough trade offs to use one. But normal cloaks could probably stand a nerf. Why? There is not like there is a problem with cloakers. Never have been, and never will be I think.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Ghoest I see some merit there. I dont think ships that use a covert ops cloak need a nerf - you make enough trade offs to use one. But normal cloaks could probably stand a nerf. Why? There is not like there is a problem with cloakers. Never have been, and never will be I think. There isn't? Ok. Cloaky gangs will be funny if local gets nerfed. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Ghoest I see some merit there. I dont think ships that use a covert ops cloak need a nerf - you make enough trade offs to use one. But normal cloaks could probably stand a nerf. Why? There is not like there is a problem with cloakers. Never have been, and never will be I think. There isn't? Ok. Cloaky gangs will be funny if local gets nerfed. At least for a few days until people realise 0.0 ratting/mining isnt worth it over high sec missions.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Esmenet At least for a few days until people realise 0.0 ratting/mining isnt worth it over high sec missions. Their loss ain't it? Low sec is more fun, I rather have the people that like being there be there, not some whiny high sec folks :P
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Esmenet At least for a few days until people realise 0.0 ratting/mining isnt worth it over high sec missions. Their loss ain't it? Low sec is more fun, I rather have the people that like being there be there, not some whiny high sec folks :P Well then you lose a lot of the prey for the cloaking gangs so you can spend much longer just waiting. Fun?
Holy Lowlander Comply Or Die G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:25:00 - [10] Yaaaay ... nano nerf is comming Now people can whine about something else .... go and play wow or something >.> and if you do .. can I has your stuff ?
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Esmenet At least for a few days until people realise 0.0 ratting/mining isnt worth it over high sec missions. Their loss ain't it? Low sec is more fun, I rather have the people that like being there be there, not some whiny high sec folks :P Well then you lose a lot of the prey for the cloaking gangs so you can spend much longer just waiting. Fun? Cloaking gangs are not effective, so they won't catch too much. So I fail to see any problms at all.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Cloaking gangs are not effective, so they won't catch too much. So I fail to see any problms at all. Cloaky recon gang + local nerfed = "not too effective, won't catch too much"? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jake McCord Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:32:00 - [13] Edited by: Jake McCord on 07/11/2008 13:33:57 I don't see why cloaks need to be nerfed. If the cloaked ship isn't a Covert ops type, or a Stealth bomber, they can't do very much. And it's really kind of a waste for any other combat ship, since, when they turn off the cloak, there is a delay before they can even lock on to anyone. Which leaves them at a heavy disadvantage. Frankly, I'm tired of all the nerfing. All it really does is force people to find different work arounds. I find it makes the game even less fun. It's like, you get used to playing the game a certain way, then some namby pamby cry baby noob complains they can't whine...I mean win the game the way it is. So they get all their friends to join in the whining, and next thing you know, Nosferatus and Energy vamps are nerfed. "Oh wait, we forgot, webs are too strong." So now they're nerfed. "Oh wait, cloaks are too good." So next, they get nerfed. Eventually, EVE is gonna be so nerfed, all that's gonna be left playing are the whiners and the isk farmers. But what do I know? I just play this game to have fun. Or at least try to. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't feel like as much fun to me as it was about 18 months ago. Then again, I never did like playing nerf ball either.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:40:00 - [14] Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 07/11/2008 13:40:39 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lindsay Logan Cloaking gangs are not effective, so they won't catch too much. So I fail to see any problms at all. Cloaky recon gang + local nerfed = "not too effective, won't catch too much"? local is not nerfed It might be changed in the future. How, we do not know. Bsides a cloaked recon ship can catch stuff now, cloaked BS's is not a problem.
Lady Andromedae Caldari The Andromedae	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:42:00 - [15] Originally by: slothe (this mainly, but not exclusively is aimed at 0.0 pvp) With the advent of QR lots of changes are being introduced. These imho, were long overdue, in particular the nerfing of webs (not speed) that i have argued for years. The changes will mean that roaming gangs will have to adapt, and be less reliant on speed fitted ships (a good thing imho). There will still be speed ships but the are unlikely to be as prevelant as before (but i guess we will see). Alongside the QR changes, local nerf is being talked about, and it is likely that local will be changed in the near future. I have this nervous fear that the way a lot of pvp groups will "adapt" to QR (and more rapidly if / when local is changed) is to rely much more heavily on cloaks than at present. This would, in my view, lead to many gangs camping gates and areas in 0.0 (possibly with black ops support). If this happens 0.0 pvp will no longer be fun AT ALL. Cloaks used to drive me mad when they started to be used by isk farmers / playes on ratting ravens in 0.0 (which no-one else seemed particularly bothered about tbh). I can see them being much more prevelant than they are now. Im open to suggestions as to what to do with them, use fuel maybe, decloak radius based on size of ship, bigger fitting penalty / use penalty, whatever. Please take a pro-active approach and prevent the problem before it arises Cloaked ship doesn't harm anyone. But of course piwate kids are crying that they can't grief cloaked ship.
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Jake McCord Edited by: Jake McCord on 07/11/2008 13:33:57 I don't see why cloaks need to be nerfed. If the cloaked ship isn't a Covert ops type, or a Stealth bomber, they can't do very much. And it's really kind of a waste for any other combat ship, since, when they turn off the cloak, there is a delay before they can even lock on to anyone. Which leaves them at a heavy disadvantage. Frankly, I'm tired of all the nerfing. All it really does is force people to find different work arounds. I find it makes the game even less fun. It's like, you get used to playing the game a certain way, then some namby pamby cry baby noob complains they can't whine...I mean win the game the way it is. So they get all their friends to join in the whining, and next thing you know, Nosferatus and Energy vamps are nerfed. "Oh wait, we forgot, webs are too strong." So now they're nerfed. "Oh wait, cloaks are too good." So next, they get nerfed. Eventually, EVE is gonna be so nerfed, all that's gonna be left playing are the whiners and the isk farmers. But what do I know? I just play this game to have fun. Or at least try to. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't feel like as much fun to me as it was about 18 months ago. Then again, I never did like playing nerf ball either. /signed.
Mag's MASS	Posted - 2008.11.07 14:09:00 - [17] Originally by: slothe ..... nerfing of webs that i have argued for years.... The changes will mean that roaming gangs will have to adapt........ So you wanted the nerf and now it's here, you complain that people will adapt? How about this, YOU adapt, instead of coming on here whining like some ten year old. Mag's Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
Connner Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 14:20:00 - [18] <peers into the future of nerfdom..> Nerf civilian autocannon, the fact they don't use ammo, WAAAY over powered. Forum whiners ftl!
Hygelac Interesting Times	Posted - 2008.11.07 14:35:00 - [19] Hey Slothe, does this mean you've sold the Covert Ops BPO then? :D On a serious note, I half agree with you. I don't think we'll see cloaking as the answer to the speed nerf as such. Will roaming gangs really want to gimp their lock times with a cloak just to avoid the probers? But if local does change in the way that has been hinted, then I imagine that finding fights in 0.0 for roaming gangs will become close to impossible, with both the hunters and the hunted spending a lot more effort to simply find someone. Cloaks would certainly exacerbate the problems of finding people in this respect but I don't think we can rely on guesswork for this one. The blogs I've read have implied that if this change to local comes about, then the mechanics of finding people will need to be different to help compensate. I.e. removing local as an instant intelligence tool and replacing it with an actual intelligence tool/module with skills ... presumably some sort of scanning reworking in general. With such a major overhaul potentially in the works, I don't think it's possible to say how cloaks will come into play, one way or the other. However I do think you raise a point, albeit indirectly. Cloaking is effectively without a proper counter at this time and I think that it will become more of an issue as cloaking is used more pervasively, namely the introduction of Covert Cloaks on Blockade Runners will see a LOT of cloaked transports threading their way through 0.0 I would like to see a potential counter to cloaking being implemented, perhaps giving Destroyers a stronger role more akin to their RL counterparts. I'd love to see a module that could identify the location of a cloaked ship, not actually decloak him because that's far too powerful, I'm talking counter, not neutralize after all! But something that would give you a hint and allow you to start tracking him. To carry the submarine analogy a bit further: A module that would produce an audible 'ping', then if the cloaker was within say 300km, the module would return a 'range'. That's it, the cloaker would know he's being actively hunted, and the hunter would be able to play a game of 'hotter and colder' as he tries to get closer to the target. It won't solve the local problem, but with the current game mechanics it would be a fun addition to cloaking. Right now the only tactic is to try and rush where the ship was with all of your drones flailing around. --- Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
slothe Caldari Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.07 14:55:00 - [20] I have no problem with dedicated covert ops ships at all (and yes hyg i did sell the bpo). Its the non-dedicated cov ops ships i have a problem with. I think players like to pvp with as little risk to themselves as possible (formerly speed ships, soon to be more cov ops ships). All i want to do is add risk to pvp that should be there. The penalties for using cloaks imho are not big enough (they are like stabs used to be). Cloaks on non dedicated ships should not be a standard fit that they have become. What fun is 0.0 when you cant find ships to find because they cloak.
ThaDollaGenerale The Priory	Posted - 2008.11.07 14:57:00 - [21] What about bumping the range of the onboard scanner to 50 AU and allowing to filter between piloted and unpiloted ships?
destinationZERO Minmatar Pain Management Services	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:15:00 - [22] Originally by: slothe whine For the love of God, shut up.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:18:00 - [23] Dont you dare suggest nerfing my pilgrim anymore than the nos nerf already did. i still havent gotten back at the whiners that caused the nos nerf! --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
DarkViper2 Caldari Samhain. Monkey Religion	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:21:00 - [24] for the love of god, pls nerf the whining posts!!!
slothe Caldari Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:30:00 - [25] Originally by: InsanlyEvlPerson Dont you dare suggest nerfing my pilgrim anymore than the nos nerf already did. i still havent gotten back at the whiners that caused the nos nerf! if you actually read what i said, im not suggesting nerfing cov op specialist ships. and other people suggesting im whining, im not. im posting an argument, right or wrong, stating bny beluiefs. rather than posting ignorant threads accusing me of whining, why dont you try and contribute to the thread?
Rhadamantine Game Community	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:31:00 - [26] Originally by: slothe Wah wah wah whine Stop posting, forever. Regards. Rhadamantine.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Ghoest I see some merit there. I dont think ships that use a covert ops cloak need a nerf - you make enough trade offs to use one. But normal cloaks could probably stand a nerf. Why? There is not like there is a problem with cloakers. Never have been, and never will be I think. There isn't? Ok. Cloaky gangs will be funny if local gets nerfed. They will be the noo loggofski trap eve... excellence by cowardice andoverallfailness but when CCP says they want this what can poor you or me do????? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Mithos Victus Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.07 17:53:00 - [28] Originally by: slothe What fun is 0.0 when you cant find ships to find because they cloak. ... your argument lacks scope and is extremely two dimensional.
Mortuus Minmatar Fat J Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.11.08 01:07:00 - [29] I'm thinking t2 Destroyer and BC's with anti-cloak probes and pulses. Drop probe to find location of cloaked ship, warp to spot, start dropping long range depth charge like devices, they explode after a few seconds, pulse decloaks, party! Destroyers obviously faster than the BC for deployment times, but not packing the punch to kill larger targets. Occassus Republica <3
Fafnir Drake Gallente Boob Heads Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.11.08 01:50:00 - [30] I think cloaking will need to be looked at IF they remove local. Main thing I'm not looking forward to is people sitting AFK in a system all day, coming back to gank. This is already becoming common. At least atm local lets you know they are in the system and to be extra cautious. I'm not in favor of a nerf, exactly, though. I just want them to have to sit at their computer screen if they are going to do that. So having to click a button every 5 minutes to avoid decloaking would be nice. Not so much the hiding that is annoying, to me. It's that they can do so in near perfect safety while AFK. ------ "Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."

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