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The CSM Internal vote for chairman WHAT A JOKE

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Issler Dainze Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord 1972	Posted - 2012.04.05 18:13:00 - [31] - Quote I understand how some folks might have expected CCP to just to pick the next highest number of votes for chair and in fact, I voted that way but there hasn't ever been this situation in the CSM in the past. As a result we were told to vote for our chair as if Mittens had declined to be the chair. Remember, Mittens even went on the record as having resigned the chair even though technically he never was entitled to it. So this is the correct outcome in the end. I really considered voting Seleene (more aligned with my views regarding industry) but in the end I was compelled by the idea that the voters were going to expect the next highest number of votes to get the option of the chair. Seleene will be excellent in the chair and I'm not disappointed with the result. The chair is more ceremonial with the current CSM process anyways so this isn't an issue to get wrapped around the axle about. So far, I'm not seeing any of the bias being suggested here, all the CSM seems committed to "big picture, all of Eve thinking" so I'd ask the player base to give the CSM 7 a chance to find our stride and get some work done, then you can judge if the CSM 7 is being effective at offering the feedback to CCP to truly improve Eve. (by the way, the vote for Hans as secretary was because I find him extremely effective at communication and I would have loved to see how he would have done in the role) So give the CSM 7 chance to show you who we each are, then if you still perceive a problem with particular candidates I know you won't be shy about sharing that concern with the rest of Eve! Issler
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction 1901	Posted - 2012.04.05 18:14:00 - [32] - Quote Sir Patrick Moore wrote: Sorry, didn't realize I'd said there was a problem with the way the replacement of the chair was handled?Oh wait, that was just you making ** up again. You keep plugging away sweetie.... Pretty ironic to be accused of making stuff up by a goon. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom.** Jericho Fraction is Recruiting!
Dry Martinis School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 1	Posted - 2012.04.05 18:15:00 - [33] - Quote I don't care for goons, but it sickens me to see 10k ignored. Especially when that 10k is most of CCP's business. You guys can hit the goons with at the sarcastic and "moar tears" comments that you like, but they keep eve interesting and keep stuff going. If they all left today eve would not be half as engaging. Keep acting like CCP can afford to lose the pirates/griefers and scammers of eve. When the game shuts down cause ccp can't pay the bills, then you can go play wow or rift I guess. Unless you really think dust is gonna save the day...........................
Sir Patrick Moore GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 10	Posted - 2012.04.05 18:26:00 - [34] - Quote Jade Constantine wrote: Sir Patrick Moore wrote: Sorry, didn't realize I'd said there was a problem with the way the replacement of the chair was handled?Oh wait, that was just you making ** up again. You keep plugging away sweetie.... Pretty ironic to be accused of making stuff up by a goon. If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Personally I think Seleene will do well. But I'm sure you'll disregard that as you do with everything else that doesn't fit into your preconceived prejudices and stereotypes... Sir Patrick Moore CBE, FRS, FRAS** Hon. Vice President of the Royal Astronomical Society
Banderlei Shiiba GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 52	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:10:00 - [35] - Quote None ofthe Above wrote: Jeebus, You guys can't stop yourself can you? The white paper called for "If the Chairman decides to step down or rescind his responsibility at any time for any reason, a vote must be held among Representatives to elect another Chairman GÇô should the Chairman voluntarily step down as one he is still eligible for the position during the vote for a new Chairman." I note the "rescind", Mittani decided not to accept the chair, so rescinded his responsibility. He was banned and ineligible to sit afterwards.. His ban made him ineligible to sit, meaning he couldn't rescind a title he never officially held, as this all went down before CSM 7 had officially started, and CSM 6 was still active. If you don't agree with that interpretation, that's fine (hopefully you'd at least agree that clarification is required for the future), but to keep quoting that Whitepaper excerpt when it's been explained pretty clearly why that doesn't work is just kind of stupid fyi.
Cosmic Fart Hedion University Amarr Empire 6	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:20:00 - [36] - Quote quote=Dry Martinis]I don't care for goons, but it sickens me to see 10k ignored. Especially when that 10k is most of CCP's business. You guys can hit the goons with at the sarcastic and "moar tears" comments that you like, but they keep eve interesting and keep stuff going. If they all left today eve would not be half as engaging. Keep acting like CCP can afford to lose the pirates/griefers and scammers of eve. When the game shuts down cause ccp can't pay the bills, then you can go play wow or rift I guess. Unless you really think dust is gonna save the day........................... [/quote] The votes weren't ignored but waisted by Mittens because of his actions. If the table were turned, the forums would be a glow with "HTFU" and "LOL" by Goons and their supporters. I doubt 10k goons are going to quit (we aren't that lucky.) just because their leader was reprimanded and punished for "HIS" premeditated actions. I'd like to think that some Goons can still think for themselves and realize wrong is just wrong! CCP knows and understands that inaction would mean far greater implications, not just buckets of Goon tears. There has to be accountablity for one's action. This wasn't the first time someone in Goons blantantly broke EULA/TOS, just so happens to be the first time it was done in such a public arena as Fanfest. As for burning down Jita, I hope that CCP bans any participates as this action would be a reaction and support of; someone who has already been banned for violations related to EULA/TOS. oh... not all pirates affiliate themselves with Goons. Fact is no REAL pirate ever would! The game will no more shut down because a few goons quit the game. However the game would shut down if CCP were to allow silly behaviour shown during Fanfest.
VCBee 180 State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:25:00 - [37] - Quote i'm gay
Two step Aperture Harmonics K162 1831	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:25:00 - [38] - Quote Banderlei Shiiba wrote: Issler Dainze wrote: I understand how some folks might have expected CCP to just to pick the next highest number of votes for chair and in fact, I voted that way but there hasn't ever been this situation in the CSM in the past. As a result we were told to vote for our chair as if Mittens had declined to be the chair. Remember, Mittens even went on the record as having resigned the chair even though technically he never was entitled to it. So this is the correct outcome in the end. So just to clarify here, you (the CSM) were directed to act as if he had resigned by CCP themselves? (This isn't some kind of attempt at a "gotcha" either, I'm just legitimately curious if interpreting the situation like this was an internal decision or a CCP directive) We were told by CCP Xhagen that we were required to vote for Chairman. This is why Korvin wasn't added to CSM 7 as well (he was #15) CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Banderlei Shiiba GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 52	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:29:00 - [39] - Quote Two step wrote: We were told by CCP Xhagen that we were required to vote for Chairman. This is why Korvin wasn't added to CSM 7 as well (he was #15) Ahh, thanks for sharing that. That pretty much puts this issue to bed, then. for about 12 hours until the next dumbass thread
Nicia Kami Tha-Pax Kari Aname 1	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:38:00 - [40] - Quote Dry Martinis wrote: I don't care for goons, but it sickens me to see 10k ignored. Especially when that 10k is most of CCP's business. You guys can hit the goons with at the sarcastic and "moar tears" comments that you like, but they keep eve interesting and keep stuff going. If they all left today eve would not be half as engaging. Keep acting like CCP can afford to lose the pirates/griefers and scammers of eve. When the game shuts down cause ccp can't pay the bills, then you can go play wow or rift I guess. Unless you really think dust is gonna save the day........................... got my "thumb up" @ cosmic farth ... i do not belive CPP can afford to be as simplistic as you are. For one, they have bills to pay.
Revolution Rising Gentlemen of Better Ilk 311	Posted - 2012.04.05 21:35:00 - [41] - Quote The fact that a vote takes place after the initial "fck up" if the first chairman gives the CSM a CHOICE on who should be up next. This is a good thing in case the chair was so terribly awful that he stood up in front of the whole world and proclaimed what an ****** he is. Oh wait... In this case it allows them to guarantee that a 2nd chair won't be just the same sort of bullshit. It's like voting in Barak Obama after having George W Bush... Perception is everything, amirite ? CSM7 Skype Leak
Dry Martinis School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.04.05 21:52:00 - [42] - Quote Cosmic Fart wrote: quote=Dry Martinis]I don't care for goons, but it sickens me to see 10k ignored. Especially when that 10k is most of CCP's business. You guys can hit the goons with at the sarcastic and "moar tears" comments that you like, but they keep eve interesting and keep stuff going. If they all left today eve would not be half as engaging ..... /stuff [/quote] I was being a bit too general and I apologize.-á I don't associate pirates with goons at all.-á I do however associates griefers and scammers with them as they do fit that mold a bit.-á Of course all pirates and goons don't go hand and hand.-á But my comment was about the bigger picture and what is looking to be the future of eve.-á Take your comment for example about banning anyone who participates in the burn jita campaign.-á That is not the future of eve that I want and I hope that you are not considering yourself a pirate with that kind of mindset.-á Eve is tough, it is a living breathing world with content that is created by the players.-á Most of us don't give a crap about the eve lore.-á (Though some do) But I bet a good amount of us read about the BOB wars and the wars of the old south.-á This is player generated content.-á Goons burning Jita is player generated content.-á CVA turning provi into their own version of camelot is generated contect. Even the forming of the CSM.-á This is what makes eve grand.-á We are all apart of the "story" of eve.-á So anytime CCP butts in and takes us out of that story and removes our choice, then it pisses people off and rightfully so. I'm a roleplayer by no means btw.-á CCP's storytelling and content doesn't make eve sucessful.-á Looking at mining/missions and incursions for example.-á They are all boring.-á The players make it sucessful.-á If I want a deep story from a developer, then there are much better games on the market.-á I want to do what I want in this sandbox.-á -á Back on topic. Sure Mittens did something wrong. Make him step down.-á Hold a re-vote and do not allow him to participate.-á Let the 10k voters pick who they want.-á You may think its silly, but in a game that usually garners 30-40k ppl max, 10k is a pretty big bloc.-á You don't give that 10k their voting rights, then I shudder to see the hell they unleash next year coming voting season.-á To add insult to injury you take someone who barely made the CSM as it is and let them be voted to Chairman.-á Chairman holds no special power, but it would of been far less of an outcry if they gave it to the 2nd highest candidate.-á TL:DR 10,000 is a lot of people and they should be able to choose the person they want.-á Re-vote.
Cosmic Fart Hedion University Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2012.04.05 23:03:00 - [43] - Quote You said: Take your comment for example about banning anyone who participates in the burn jita campaign. That is not the future of eve that I want and I hope that you are not considering yourself a pirate with that kind of mindset. and I say if the "Burn Jita" campaign is in response to what happened to Mittens then I say "YES" ban anyone who participates as it could be interperted as a support for violating EULA/TOS. There is no need for a re-vote as the votes were cast for Mittani and he would have been on the CSM7 if it weren't for his violating EULA/TOS. Contrary to popular opinion there is such a thing as accountability for those who violate rules regardless of tenure or position. I fully support CCP's action and thank them for doing what might cost them a few accounts. So in return I renewed two of my accounts the other night I read what happened. I will probably open two more NEW accounts in support. CCP's not ignoring the votes. The votes were thrown out in the wash because of the actions of one person, Mittani, no one else. CCP simply enforced EULA/TOS and the one deserving the bad karma finally got it. Wish more people would get the karma they so deserve in game and real life. EVE is a harsh world, no doubt. But just because it's a sandbox game built around the brutality of living in space doesn't give anyone a right to be an complete arse to people in real life. We've seen too much of it and people are tired of it. Play your game, but lines are drawn when it comes to RL attacks. I commend CCP for taking appropriate action even though they know it might effect their bottom line to some degree.
GOON TEARS BEST-TEARS School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.04.05 23:36:00 - [44] - Quote Cosmic Fart wrote: You said: Take your comment for example about banning anyone who participates in the burn jita campaign. That is not the future of eve that I want and I hope that you are not considering yourself a pirate with that kind of mindset. and I say if the "Burn Jita" campaign is in response to what happened to Mittens then I say "YES" ban anyone who participates as it could be interperted as a support for violating EULA/TOS. There is no need for a re-vote as the votes were cast for Mittani and he would have been on the CSM7 if it weren't for his violating EULA/TOS. Contrary to popular opinion there is such a thing as accountability for those who violate rules regardless of tenure or position. I fully support CCP's action and thank them for doing what might cost them a few accounts. So in return I renewed two of my accounts the other night when I read what happened. (have been away on vacation for a couple weeks.) I will probably open two more NEW accounts in support. CCP's not ignoring the votes. The votes were thrown out in the wash because of the actions of one person, Mittani, no one else. CCP simply enforced EULA/TOS and the one deserving the bad karma finally got it. Wish more people would get the karma they so deserve in game and real life. EVE is a harsh world, no doubt. But just because it's a sandbox game built around the brutality of living in space doesn't give anyone a right to be an complete arse to people in real life. We've seen too much of it and people are tired of it. Play your game, but lines are drawn when it comes to RL attacks. I commend CCP for taking appropriate action even though they know it might effect their bottom line to some degree. I dont think i could have put it better myself. Also i just wanna thumbs up Sir patrick moore.. your avatar is just too awesome
Dry Martinis School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.04.06 01:01:00 - [45] - Quote Cosmic Fart wrote: You said: Take your comment for example about banning anyone who participates in the burn jita campaign. That is not the future of eve that I want and I hope that you are not considering yourself a pirate with that kind of mindset. and I say if the "Burn Jita" campaign is in response to what happened to Mittens then I say "YES" ban anyone who participates as it could be interperted as a support for violating EULA/TOS. There is no need for a re-vote as the votes were cast for Mittani and he would have been on the CSM7 if it weren't for his violating EULA/TOS. Contrary to popular opinion there is such a thing as accountability for those who violate rules regardless of tenure or position. I fully support CCP's action and thank them for doing what might cost them a few accounts. So in return I renewed two of my accounts the other night when I read what happened. (have been away on vacation for a couple weeks.) I will probably open two more NEW accounts in support. CCP's not ignoring the votes. The votes were thrown out in the wash because of the actions of one person, Mittani, no one else. CCP simply enforced EULA/TOS and the one deserving the bad karma finally got it. Wish more people would get the karma they so deserve in game and real life. EVE is a harsh world, no doubt. But just because it's a sandbox game built around the brutality of living in space doesn't give anyone a right to be an complete arse to people in real life. We've seen too much of it and people are tired of it. Play your game, but lines are drawn when it comes to RL attacks. I commend CCP for taking appropriate action even though they know it might effect their bottom line to some degree. I agree he should of been removed but should of been a revote. Also if you are suicidal then get help don't cry in a videogame. Eve, hell, the Internet is a mean place. I don't trash talk and I've been trash talked. It's online, it's a videogame. Grow a pair man up, and learn to deal with jerk offs online. Disney has a game called toon town that may better fit your self esteem.
Nymph Purchasing Ruvas Logistics and Maintenance Services 20	Posted - 2012.04.06 01:20:00 - [46] - Quote While I think this was a reasonable way to apply rules to a situation that no rule quite fits I think everyone having this debate is missing one very important point. We are playing in CCP's sandbox. CSM exists at their discretion. We have no divind right to such direct player represntation at CCP. It might be best to accept the generous gift they give us and accept that CCP makes the rules, makes it exist, and can make it cease to exist.
Dry Martinis School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.04.06 01:25:00 - [47] - Quote Nymph Purchasing wrote: While I think this was a reasonable way to apply rules to a situation that no rule quite fits I think everyone having this debate is missing one very important point. We are playing in CCP's sandbox. CSM exists at their discretion. We have no divind right to such direct player represntation at CCP. It might be best to accept the generous gift they give us and accept that CCP makes the rules, makes it exist, and can make it cease to exist. That's cool an all but we pay the electric bill. We pay for servers to be hosted and when you have a game with 40k players tops, then you better realize it and not **** off 10k of them. Ccp exists at our discretion, don't forget it
Nymph Purchasing Ruvas Logistics and Maintenance Services 20	Posted - 2012.04.06 01:30:00 - [48] - Quote Dry Martinis wrote: Nymph Purchasing wrote: While I think this was a reasonable way to apply rules to a situation that no rule quite fits I think everyone having this debate is missing one very important point. We are playing in CCP's sandbox. CSM exists at their discretion. We have no divind right to such direct player represntation at CCP. It might be best to accept the generous gift they give us and accept that CCP makes the rules, makes it exist, and can make it cease to exist. That's cool an all but we pay the electric bill. We pay for servers to be hosted and when you have a game with 40k players tops, then you better realize it and not **** off 10k of them. Ccp exists at our discretion, don't forget it 40K at one time. 300k+ total. The same could be said for any company that produces anything. Most companies do not have so formal an organization as CSM. This includes companies with both much larger and much smaller customer bases.
Frying Doom Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 161	Posted - 2012.04.06 02:02:00 - [49] - Quote Dry Martinis wrote: Nymph Purchasing wrote: While I think this was a reasonable way to apply rules to a situation that no rule quite fits I think everyone having this debate is missing one very important point. We are playing in CCP's sandbox. CSM exists at their discretion. We have no divind right to such direct player represntation at CCP. It might be best to accept the generous gift they give us and accept that CCP makes the rules, makes it exist, and can make it cease to exist. That's cool an all but we pay the electric bill. We pay for servers to be hosted and when you have a game with 40k players tops, then you better realize it and not ** off 10k of them. Ccp exists at our discretion, don't forget it. When they have blizzards amount of subs, then they can give bad service Show me a company that doesn't ** off 3% of its customers or more, called a telephone company lately? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
None ofthe Above 164	Posted - 2012.04.06 02:38:00 - [50] - Quote Banderlei Shiiba wrote: None ofthe Above wrote: Jeebus, You guys can't stop yourself can you? The white paper called for "If the Chairman decides to step down or rescind his responsibility at any time for any reason, a vote must be held among Representatives to elect another Chairman GÇô should the Chairman voluntarily step down as one he is still eligible for the position during the vote for a new Chairman." I note the "rescind", Mittani decided not to accept the chair, so rescinded his responsibility. He was banned and ineligible to sit afterwards.. His ban made him ineligible to sit, meaning he couldn't rescind a title he never officially held, as this all went down before CSM 7 had officially started, and CSM 6 was still active. If you don't agree with that interpretation, that's fine (hopefully you'd at least agree that clarification is required for the future), but to keep quoting that Whitepaper excerpt when it's been explained pretty clearly why that doesn't work is just kind of stupid fyi. I grant you that this doesn't exactly seem to have been a corner case they explicitly covered, but again this is the only mechanism they list for dealing with what happens when the guy voted chair isn't going to be in that position. Doing it any other way would have been "making up the rules as they went along". I thought Two Step would have had the edge and would have made a fine chairman, but I have a lot of respect for Selene as well. Selene has that wider view which probably led to him winning out. I hope Two Step doesn't feel slighted, I heard he wasn't sure he wanted it. So anyway, I am happy to abide by the vote both in principle and in practice.
Olivia Veminok University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.04.06 05:25:00 - [51] - Quote Vile rat wrote: Aradus Gunnell wrote: http://community.eveonline.com/download/devblog/CSM.pdf The White Paper seems pretty clear to me on how this all goes down; where exactly did CCP change the voting schemata? Page 16 of the CSM governing document clearly states that if the Chairman is in any way removed (voluntarily or involuntarily) from his/her seat, the CSM members hold an internal election for the Chair. This was in place long before the current debacle, no? Not trolling, I'm asking honestly: at what point did the document change from something else to its current iteration? Where were changes made along the line? Mittani stepped down from CSM 6 and was ineligible to sit in CSM 7. The chair never existed and the highest vote total of the eligible candidates was Two step. You can still be elected without holding office. The Mittani was elected to CSM 7 and won the chair by a landslide. It is my interpretation that after the election was finished, and although the next term had not yet started, he was banned and as per the white paper removed from CSM 7. After that it falls to the proviso that the CSM then has to elect a CSM chairman since the chair was removed. Interestingly enough, if he was banned at the time of the presentation (which afiak was before the election was finished), everything would change.
Dry Martinis School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.04.06 06:06:00 - [52] - Quote Nymph Purchasing wrote: Dry Martinis wrote: Nymph Purchasing wrote: While I think this was a reasonable way to apply rules to a situation that no rule quite fits I think everyone having this debate is missing one very important point. We are playing in CCP's sandbox. CSM exists at their discretion. We have no divind right to such direct player represntation at CCP. It might be best to accept the generous gift they give us and accept that CCP makes the rules, makes it exist, and can make it cease to exist. That's cool an all but we pay the electric bill. We pay for servers to be hosted and when you have a game with 40k players tops, then you better realize it and not **** off 10k of them. Ccp exists at our discretion, don't forget it 40K at one time. 300k+ total. The same could be said for any company that produces anything. Most companies do not have so formal an organization as CSM. This includes companies with both much larger and much smaller customer bases. Yea, and how many of total are active subs. The activity number never really reaches a new peak at any points. I'd say 50-60k active max. It's whatever at this point though. Cheers.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 345	Posted - 2012.04.06 06:51:00 - [53] - Quote Vile rat wrote: Jade Constantine wrote: Vile rat wrote: Jade Constantine wrote: if you take a look outside your alliance chat you'll see that pretty much everybody else IS laughing Ok? tell you what, have a sympathy space like and I'll stop taking the mickey for a bit. What does this even mean? I swear the english invented the language then forgot how to use it. Lol at the ~~American~~ goonie not getting the most basic aspects of British humour...Which only makes it funnier, 'natch. In irae, veritas.
VCBee 180 State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.04.06 14:58:00 - [54] - Quote Perhaps you should show a bit more respect to the country that won WW2 for you. You're welcome.
Richard Desturned GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 171	Posted - 2012.04.06 15:31:00 - [55] - Quote I literally don't see anything wrong with Seleene as chairman Don't mind me, I'm just adding content to threads that otherwise have none.
Revolution Rising Gentlemen of Better Ilk 316	Posted - 2012.04.06 15:40:00 - [56] - Quote VCBee 180 wrote: Perhaps you should show a bit more respect to the country that won WW2 for you. You're welcome. Yeah I for one feel like the good guys won The pics from Abu Graib alone are worth it. CSM7 Skype Leak
Josef Djugashvilis The Scope Gallente Federation 74	Posted - 2012.04.06 16:44:00 - [57] - Quote VCBee 180 wrote: Perhaps you should show a bit more respect to the country that won WW2 for you. You're welcome. How did Soviet Russia get into this ? Many would argue that they won the war for the 'West' You want fries with that?
Banderlei Shiiba GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 52	Posted - 2012.04.07 18:37:00 - [58] - Quote None ofthe Above wrote: I thought Two Step would have had the edge and would have made a fine chairman, but I have a lot of respect for Selene as well. Selene has that wider view which probably led to him winning out. I hope Two Step doesn't feel slighted, I heard he wasn't sure he wanted it. So anyway, I am happy to abide by the vote both in principle and in practice. One of the reasons I was reluctant to say anything at all was precisely because it could easily come off as sour grapes as to who got the chair, when in reality I was pretty fine with it being whoever (and I fully agree that Seleene is a very good choice - if anything because he had near unanimous votes from the other council members). Really though, I was just curious to see if the interpretation of the White Paper was due to any kind of politicking from another member (or members), or if it was just CCP saying "hey, new situation, you guys just do X".
None ofthe Above 164	Posted - 2012.04.07 19:08:00 - [59] - Quote Banderlei Shiiba wrote: None ofthe Above wrote: I thought Two Step would have had the edge and would have made a fine chairman, but I have a lot of respect for Selene as well. Selene has that wider view which probably led to him winning out. I hope Two Step doesn't feel slighted, I heard he wasn't sure he wanted it. So anyway, I am happy to abide by the vote both in principle and in practice. One of the reasons I was reluctant to say anything at all was precisely because it could easily come off as sour grapes as to who got the chair, when in reality I was pretty fine with it being whoever (and I fully agree that Seleene is a very good choice - if anything because he had near unanimous votes from the other council members). Really though, I was just curious to see if the interpretation of the White Paper was due to any kind of politicking from another member (or members), or if it was just CCP saying "hey, new situation, you guys just do X". Fair enough.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 345	Posted - 2012.04.08 20:18:00 - [60] - Quote VCBee 180 wrote: Perhaps you should show a bit more respect to the country that won WW2 for you. You're welcome. No, I shouldn't. Perhaps you should go **** yourself? In irae, veritas.

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