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Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:00:00 - [1] Went from 'Mandatory' to 'MysigishugeOMG' Start fitting afterburners Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:01:00 - [2] Originally by: Sokratesz Went from 'Mandatory' to 'MysigishugeOMG' Start fitting afterburners Wasn't the M for Mandatory because you needed it to burn out of bubbles / burn back to gates? Has that somehow changed? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:02:00 - [3] Edited by: Sokratesz on 12/11/2008 00:02:31 Other observations: My maelstrom with core c-type afterburner went from 375 to 325m/s My guns hit npcs alot better Weapon grouping is pretty cool and last but not least, eve seems to run better in windowed mode now! Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:04:00 - [4] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Sokratesz Went from 'Mandatory' to 'MysigishugeOMG' Start fitting afterburners Wasn't the M for Mandatory because you needed it to burn out of bubbles / burn back to gates? Has that somehow changed? Not that much, but for small ships sig started playing a much much larger role now. No more fitting LSEs and i-stabs at leisure. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Sokratesz Went from 'Mandatory' to 'MysigishugeOMG' Start fitting afterburners Wasn't the M for Mandatory because you needed it to burn out of bubbles / burn back to gates? Has that somehow changed? Not that much, but for small ships sig started playing a much much larger role now. No more fitting LSEs and i-stabs at leisure. Would be enough if you read what i was posting on alliance chat :X MWD is still mandatory. AB works mostly for small engagements (maybe up to 5 people per side) - then MWD speed bonus (and abilityto disengage) still owns AB "i orbit you but your friends hit me anyways" ability. LSE's are useless except for passive max-recharge or max-hp caldari (torp raven). Go for either active tanks or buffer+remote rep. Buffer alone wont work.
Robert Rumpletweezer Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:15:00 - [6] 00:11:36 Notify Speed changed to 2546 m/s NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:16:00 - [7] Will have to see tbh. New sig mechanics will be interesting. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:18:00 - [8] MWD will still be mandatory. AB setups have zero ability to control range, and major problems getting out of bubbles/back to the gate/etc. The role of ABs is going to be extremely limited, at most you'll see them on interceptors/AFs. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD will still be mandatory. AB setups have zero ability to control range. Not when everyone else has **** poor speed. You need to get out of the nano mindset.. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:22:00 - [10] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 12/11/2008 00:22:36 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD will still be mandatory. AB setups have zero ability to control range. Not when everyone else has **** poor speed. You need to get out of the nano mindset.. I'm not in the nano mindset. For example, a MWD Zealot can effortlessly stay out of range of an AB Deimos, the absolute best the Deimos can hope for is to force a draw where the Zealot MWDs out of scramble range and warps off. ABs are useless to the point that a MWD ship a class above an AB ship should be able to dictate range and disengage at will. The agility boost actually helps this, as it's much easier to avoid getting stuck flying the opposite direction and unable to turn around and accelerate away before your target gets into range. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:27:00 - [11] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/11/2008 00:28:16 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/11/2008 00:27:35 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD will still be mandatory. AB setups have zero ability to control range. Not when everyone else has **** poor speed. You need to get out of the nano mindset.. Example about range control: Post patch shield buffered artycane (which is what I use in gangs afterall, because I'm a horrible cheapskate which cannot be arsed to cross train and because it can work under sentry fire before Merin starts complaining), 1267 m/s non-overheated. Afterburning unplated Rupture with max skills, 603m/s non-overheated. Oh, wait. I can dictate range vs hordes of these, and they will never ever come close, and I'm half hull size up! Now, why should I give this up just because I'll take some more missile damage? Who cares? I can warp out if untackled anyway. On the other hand, if I get webbed/scrambled in a AB fit, I'm going to die horribly whatever I do if I get focus fired. It's not nano mindset, it's being realistic. You cannot control range when everyone and his dog is over twice as fast as you are. People everywhere are rejoicing about their lovely afterburners, only to discover the cruel, harsh reality of TQ. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:31:00 - [12] Furthermore, sig radius is not nearly as important as you think - its equally important v turrets (which are very common in PVP, last I heard about them) as it is on TQ, and it is now more important for missiles - but it has approximately the same effect as velocity for firing on same-size targets. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Meridius Dex Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:01:00 - [13] I really don't think you guys are taking into account just how many ships will fight within web/scram range now. Everything has changed. A good scout should be keeping your 0.0 fleet out of bubble camps, anyway. For those of us in low sec, our ship's optimal engagement range will determine whether we fit ABs or MWDs. If you are talking about a ship that must fight outside scram range, then I'd say MWD will remain mandatory. My 50K pulse Zealot will still be MWD-fit, certainly. If I jump into a large gatecamp, I die more often than not - MWD or not. Pre-patch, it was 90% webs and 24K points. Post patch it will be 10K scrams and 60% webs. If I use a MWD on my Pilgrim, it all comes down to whether an enemy ship with scram is close. If they scram (turn off MWD) and web me (speed reduced to 90 m/s), I'm dead in space. On the other hand, if I have an AB and am pointed/scrammed (no effect on velocity) and 60% webbed, I am still going 210 m/s. It all comes down to where the tacklers are and how fast they get within web/scram range, versus how fast you can get back to the gate. Even a brief pulse of MWD can get you there, as we all know (agility changes may make it even better). But if you don't get there on that pulse, the new scrams and web will leave you dead in space and that last couple kilometers to get into jumprange of the gate will feel as far away as Pluto. -- Meridius Dex -- Awesomeness: "When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome again. True story."
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD will still be mandatory. AB setups have zero ability to control range, and major problems getting out of bubbles/back to the gate/etc. The role of ABs is going to be extremely limited, at most you'll see them on interceptors/AFs. It can still control range, just less so than a MWD. The interesting stuff starts to happen when you have tacklers using scramblers that's when MWDs have no ability to control range as you can't even turn them on but an AB still works. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD will still be mandatory. AB setups have zero ability to control range, and major problems getting out of bubbles/back to the gate/etc. The role of ABs is going to be extremely limited, at most you'll see them on interceptors/AFs. It can still control range, just less so than a MWD. The interesting stuff starts to happen when you have tacklers using scramblers that's when MWDs have no ability to control range as you can't even turn them on but an AB still works. Because webbed afterburners control range awesomely well. It's like people saying 'fit a TC if you can't hit dual webbed frigs with cruiser guns'. Well, sure, it helps. However, it moves me from 0.00001 to 0.000012 capability of doing anything, which is quite a epic way to spend your slots, clap clap. Besides, the tacklers need MWDs to do their jobs too. I mean, imagine like a afterburning AF trying to do stuff in a gang... then it realizes that my battlecruiser is, like, faster by 100m/s Wouldn't that be pwnsauce in gangs for tackle? Besides, people can do that (MWD interceptor - come close, web) to ships like my artycane right now - the only problem is that, on TQ, they're typically dissuaded by the two small neuts I fit for exactly this reason and 6 Warrior IIs. On SISI, they're typically dissuaded by... ohwai. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:13:00 - [16] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 12/11/2008 01:14:07 Originally by: Meridius Dex I really don't think you guys are taking into account just how many ships will fight within web/scram range now. Everything has changed. And how exactly will they GET to web/scram range without a MWD? Quote: A good scout should be keeping your 0.0 fleet out of bubble camps, anyway. It's not just camps. Consider two sniper fleets (or really anything in 0.0) where bubbles are the main method of tackling. The fight starts, both get bubbled by interdictors/HICs, and one side starts losing. With a MWD, you MWD out of the bubble and warp away. With an AB, you take much longer, and therefore take a lot more losses before you clear the bubble (assuming the interdictor's launcher hasn't cycled by then, leaving you trapped inside a new bubble). Quote: If I use a MWD on my Pilgrim, it all comes down to whether an enemy ship with scram is close. If they scram (turn off MWD) and web me (speed reduced to 90 m/s), I'm dead in space. On the other hand, if I have an AB and am pointed/scrammed (no effect on velocity) and 60% webbed, I am still going 210 m/s. The Pilgrim is actually one of the few ships that can actually use an AB effectively (effectively being a relative term, the ship still sucks). Since you're approaching under cloak, you can get into range without a MWD. The drawback is of course that you have zero ability to disengage when things go badly, but honestly, a Pilgrim dies just as quickly with a MWD. Originally by: Kadoes Khan It can still control range, just less so than a MWD. No it can't. A MWD ship is faster than an AB ship a full class smaller. The AB ship is entirely at the mercy of the MWD ship's range decisions, unless it's a frigate vs. battleship. Quote: The interesting stuff starts to happen when you have tacklers using scramblers that's when MWDs have no ability to control range as you can't even turn them on but an AB still works. Except in blobs (the best way to have lots of tacklers like that), everyone is fighting at long range, and range control is much less important. And you're going to need lots of tacklers, as a 7.5km scram frigate will die very quickly to drones/neuts from 2-3 ships. On the other hand, a 24km tackler can survive much longer, freeing up pilots to fly more long-range dps ships and kill the target much faster. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:23:00 - [17] Edited by: Akyla on 12/11/2008 01:24:42 It's simple. If you want to use your speed to move around and control range (talking long ranges here), use a MWD. If you want to use your speed to tank, use an AB. Previously, nanoed ships could do both with a MWD. That's no longer true, yet it still hasn't make the AB better than the MWD by default. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:25:00 - [18] Actually, im somewhat conflicted in views. I now can permarun my MWD, on my hawk. Why? Gistii B-type. 6% cap penalty. Ooooh yeah babeh.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Waxau Actually, im somewhat conflicted in views. I now can permarun my MWD, on my hawk. Why? Gistii B-type. 6% cap penalty. Ooooh yeah babeh. And slaughter afterburning AFs all day long, hahah With a Hawk, to make things more humiliating. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Waxau Actually, im somewhat conflicted in views. I now can permarun my MWD, on my hawk. Why? Gistii B-type. 6% cap penalty. Ooooh yeah babeh. And slaughter afterburning AFs all day long, hahah With a Hawk, to make things more humiliating. 77 dps babeh
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:25:00 - [21] Wait, aren't there still webbing drones? Solution, at least for ships with drones. Throw out at least one webber drone to disable MWD. Then dictate range.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:31:00 - [22] Originally by: Tasko Pal Wait, aren't there still webbing drones? Solution, at least for ships with drones. Throw out at least one webber drone to disable MWD. Then dictate range. It's a heavy drone that is pretty damn slow to begin with, most things that need to be webbed you can likely catch and web yourself and the things you can't catch your better off sending a wave of warrior II's after them. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:32:00 - [23] My interceptor fell 2000m/s in speed, but the signature radius is nicer and its more cap stable due to the changes with t2 having a smaller bonus. Also all my rogue implants got shot out of my head onto the floor, and I fumbled around and stuck them back in different slots. Couldn't fit the last one in though... couldn't sell it either so refined it to earn a glorious 5k isk.
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:38:00 - [24] Yes, fit afterburners. You don't want to beat those dirty MWDing ships anyways. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:52:00 - [25] Originally by: TimMc My interceptor fell 2000m/s in speed, but the signature radius is nicer and its more cap stable due to the changes with t2 having a smaller bonus. Yeah. Nubs with T2 unrigged fits got slightly boosted overall (except for yet worse ability to outrun Warrior IIs, but plain T2 fits had trouble doing that already), people who flew expensive interceptor setups got nerfed. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Chssmius Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: TimMc My interceptor fell 2000m/s in speed, but the signature radius is nicer and its more cap stable due to the changes with t2 having a smaller bonus. Yeah. Nubs with T2 unrigged fits got slightly boosted overall (except for yet worse ability to outrun Warrior IIs, but plain T2 fits had trouble doing that already), people who flew expensive interceptor setups got nerfed. (raises hand) I fit a T2 unrigged Crow with decent skills(all nav skills to 4 or 5, inty to 4) and lost around 1600 m/s from the speed change(about 6.4 km/s to about 4.8 km/s). I now find my Crow tanks missiles as well with an AB(or better?) as with an MWD, which is to say it would last about a minute vs standard heavies fired from a drake. Still need to test vs. drones, light missiles, and small rails(I expect generally bad things from most of them).
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Chssmius Still need to test vs. drones, light missiles, and small rails(I expect generally bad things from most of them). You would be correct in that expectation. Drones will eat you, and small rails are even worse (assuming people know to use 75mm rails). I have yet to lose my 75mm rail Harpy against a long-range interceptor on SiSi, the best they can hope for is to MWD away before I can finish putting holes in their hull. Short-range inties are a problem, once the scram disables the MWD rails can't track, but short-range inties are suicide in anything but a frigate 1v1. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Chimii Lecto Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.12 08:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 12/11/2008 00:02:31 Other observations: and last but not least, eve seems to run better in windowed mode now! I just reactivated my account 'cus you said that =) ---------- /Pretty Posting.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.12 09:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Chimii Lecto Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 12/11/2008 00:02:31 Other observations: and last but not least, eve seems to run better in windowed mode now! I just reactivated my account 'cus you said that =) Also, discussion, yay, exactly what I wanted. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.12 09:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Sokratesz Went from 'Mandatory' to 'MysigishugeOMG' Start fitting afterburners "Does my sig look big in this MWD?" Don't blame the MWD. "Your sig is so big, your opponents have to roll you in flour if they haven't trained Surgical Strike V" "Your sig is so big that stargates make you jump twice" "Your sig is so big you have to worry about Roche limits" "Your sig is so big that when you dock at Jita 4-4, traffic control says 'please be gentle'"

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