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Templar Rampant
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:59:00 -
[31]
I agree with much of the sentiment here on the certification system, but by the same token, elite means ELITE. Maybe not every player wants to invest into a lvl 5, they're just fine with a 4 thank you very much. Older players may not need/want the direction. I happen to appreciate the way its laid out. Try to remember when you were brand new to EVE. I've played off and on for a year and at the very minimum this gives me the ability to look at what I might need to be proficient and *GASP* when its probably not a good idea to attempt to fly a BS yet.
For those of you who like to yar..."They not be rules, they be more like guidelines."
And those players who come to EVE and are intimidated by the scope/learning curve, yeah, they probably wont play anyway.
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Witcher
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Cincannatus
Originally by: Pottsey
But what about those of us who do have all relevant skills at lvl 5 and are still labelled as standard? My heavy drones are totally maxed out including lvl 5 specialisation in my races drones. Max range, hitpoints, damage, e.c.t. yet still only classed as standard.
The idea behind certs is great but itÆs been very poorly implanted.
goodness me, well......oh dear where to begin.... look to be elite you have to have maximal skills possible in that field. if you DO NOT have maximised SP in other races, how on earth could you be considered elite? but hey, certificates are purely optional,and remember just because you think you deserve the certificate, doesnt mean you actually do.
No man lol ! If I think that i deserve a cert, that mean i actually do ! )
Anyway, another point is that there are a lot aspects of skill tree not represented in cert either, for example, riggin, capitals, and particular types of ship (that is not neceseraly good idea though).
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:30:00 -
[33]
Mordekai Bloodwake said ôIll try to make this simple since you suffer from the "Look at me, Rambo syndrome!" .. The 'current' iteration of the cert system isnt NOT taking into account RACE specific in most areas, instead it only looks at the area as a WHOLE.ô This is from memory as I cannot log in right now but all the other weapon systems are 1 path only. Drones on the other hand require you to go down all 4 race drone paths and then it skips the other 2 paths. If itÆs as a whole why donÆt I need fighters or sent drones? Why are railguns and blasters two trees but drones as one tree? Drones should be split up like turrets.
What about passive tanking I do have every skill used at max useable level. An Elite pilot wouldnt train the last skill as it makes the tank worse.
ôlook to be elite you have to have maximal skills possible in that field. if you DO NOT have maximised SP in other races, how on earth could you be considered elite?ö ThatÆs wrong and if thatÆs the case why can I hit Elite without maximal skills possible in that field?
Mordekai Bloodwake ôPersonally, i enjoy the new cert system and it WILL give new players a sense of direction without having to realize, OH GEEZ i left Caldari Drone 2 cause im a DPS wanna be and only maxed Gallente Drone V.ö By sense of direction you mean I want to be shield logistical ship pilot so it tells me to train amour remote skills. I want to amour tank so it tells me to train shield skills. I want to do max drones for use in missions and it tells me to waste lots of training on all 4 race drones which has little point to it.
Cincannatus said ôAllow me to use your comments as an example incase you still cant relate; YOUR drone skills in YOUR RACE at V doesnt mean YOUR ellite in DRONE's, it means YOUR standard at DRONE OVERALL,ö But itÆs inconsistent. With railguns having lvl 5 large railgun specialisation and I am an Elite railgun user With drones having lvl 5 Gallente drones specialisation and I am a standard drone pilot.
Elite should be useful. Getting 3 other races drones to specialisation 5 is a waste. Certs are meant to show you what to train and give you a useful training path. Elite should represent that. Not tell you to train a bunch of pointless kills. Certs are ment to give new players a usefull guide on what path to go down.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Witcher
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:49:00 -
[34]
Pottsey +1
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Salen Kane
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:50:00 -
[35]
Quote: Certs are meant to show you what to train and give you a useful training path. Elite should represent that. Not tell you to train a bunch of pointless kills. Certs are ment to give new players a usefull guide on what path to go down.
By the time you're up for elite (or even multiple standard) certs, you probably aren't a new player any more.
Im not saying the cert system isn't badly implemented and gives poor advice (at higher level), Im just saying it doesn't really matter that much. All the players who worry that they wont qualify for the elite status, does it really matter that you dont? Its like one of the kids in school saying you aren't cool. Actually, its like one of the kids at some OTHER school, that haven't ever heard of you, saying you aren't cool.
Most new EVE players, and many veterans too for that matter, aren't terribly active on the forums, so having some kind of easy to access, in game advice system for them isn't a bad idea. If you ONLY base your training on what the cert system tells you... well, you're probably a bit silly, and we all know what EVE doesn't cater to silly naive people. If you believe otherwise, please send me 1 bil isk and I will send you 2 bil back! Really.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:02:00 -
[36]
Salen Kane said ôBy the time you're up for elite (or even multiple standard) certs, you probably aren't a new player any more. ô The problem goes down from Elite right to basic. What are the point of certs if youÆre having to tell all the new corp members to ignore them? If a new player wants to get into a logistical ship for his race and support the corp with remote repairs, you cannot point him to the logistical certs. You have to say ignore teh certs go down this path and donÆt get all those skills the cert says get.
Same for drones and other areas. I would estimate 90% of passive tankers barely count as basic passive tankers let alone standard. Wouldnt surprise me if active tankers are not to far off.
In the current form I dont see certs as a good guide for new players. It makes them waste far to many skills they dont need.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Xantheous
Minmatar Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:27:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Xantheous on 12/11/2008 15:31:35 Edited by: Xantheous on 12/11/2008 15:26:56 Geez..want to order a waabuger and some french cries? Get over your self. The certs do not effect how good of a pilot you are and you should not care that people get more elites than you do. FFS
And yes..I like the system.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Xantheous Edited by: Xantheous on 12/11/2008 15:31:35 Edited by: Xantheous on 12/11/2008 15:26:56 Geez..want to order a waabuger and some french cries? Get over your self. The certs do not effect how good of a pilot you are and you should not care that people get more elites than you do. FFS
And yes..I like the system.
Missing the point here I think. The points Pottsey and the others are trying to make are:
1) That there should be more categories to better reflect training paths eg: drones, ewar, with more racial flavour, as you don't train tracking disruptors if you are wanting to be a scorpion ecm pilot for instance.
2) That skills that very few people train for being useless in most situations (I think I have targetting 2 or 3 ) being included as core skills is poor, they should be in locations (in this case) like logistics and ecm, where that skill actually has an application.
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Hoshi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:51:00 -
[39]
After taking a closer look I think most problems with too high skill requirements for Standard level (Core Targeting are not the only one) is because those specific certs do not have an Improved level.
A few examples of certs with arguably too high Standard requirement which do not have an Improved version are: Core Capacitor Core Targeting All Advanced Turret Certs All Advanced Missile Certs Fleet Co-Ordinator Cartographer
There are also several other examples where the Standard are ok but because there are no improved version the leap to Elite becomes very large. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:56:00 -
[40]
Xantheous said ôGeez..want to order a waabuger and some french cries? Get over your self. The certs do not effect how good of a pilot you are and you should not care that people get more elites than you do. FFSö This isnÆt about me wanting the certs myself. Half the certs I am complaining about I have, just to prove I am not complaining because I think I should have them. This is about me wanting to use certs as they were intended, but I am unable to do that as they donÆt work as intended. I often deal with new pilots and certs are almost completely useless for new pilots in the current form. I donÆt care about others having more Elites. I care about the fact certs donÆt do their intended job very well.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Hoshi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:15:00 -
[41]
Most ships in the game now have a "Recommended" which shows which certs are recommended for that ship. Here there are also a lot of strange recommendations. A few examples:
Tempest recommend Active Shield Tanking - Standard Typhoon recommends Battleship Projectile Turrets - Basic but not Battleship Launcher Control - Basic. Falcon recommends Cruiser Advanced Heavy Launchers - Standard Ferox recommends active tanking while the Drake recommends passive. Flycatcher recommends Frigate Advanced Rail Turrets but Frigate Advanced Standard Launchers - Standard Heretic recommends Frigate Advanced Standard Launchers - Standard but not Frigate Advanced Rocket Launchers - Standard
Lots more of those.
---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Witcher
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:15:00 -
[42]
And again Pottsey +1 you are making excellent points, thats what i mean as well !
Certs - idea is good, technical implementation is good, the content is awfully way from real gameplay.
You dont play like the certs tell you to. Just give you another example here:
for instance the cartographer elite requires you to have hacking 5, and it kinda make sense to bundle probing and hacking skill together under exploration. However how it actually ahppens in reality, is that we have 1 char who is doing the porbing (and who has perfect probing skills) and then you come back with you main in bigger ship who s got combat skills to take care of rats and actually open/hack stuff. I'm not saying that this is intentended mechanics, and not saying that this is the way it works in 100% of cases. All i'm saying is that this is very common approach and as such cert of cartographer elite is useless, because noone will get it. It would make much more snese to have cartographer and field technician certs no to depend on each other. Then it will make the system more informative and more importantly will point newbies to more efficient training path.
So overall i think certs sytem was designed miles from real gameplay. Say like pickup 10000 most experienced players and allow each of themn redeisgn composition skills required for each cert, then see which skills are used most often and actually put those as requiremenets for certs. You will get a much more realistic picture of gameplay reflected in certs.
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Tsureshon
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:36:00 -
[43]
I'm a newbie... like 3 weeks into the game.
I can allocate my points better than following the certificate system... because it's not set up right.
Certificates are a cool CONCEPT... but the reality is that for me to get a cert I understand drones.. I should not be wasting time making drones that already fly at like WARP SPEED 5% faster to get credit for a cert. Any idiot that knows anything about drones would realize you are far better off getting Drones V or Scout Drones 5 before even TOUCHING drone navigation or drone durability.... yet to show I understand drones I have to take skills that any knowledgable player would claim is an extreme indicator that I do NOT understand drones.
I looked at many many certs... and in every case useless skills had to be trained to pass to the next "tier"
I am looking at my accomplishments that I held in high regard prior to the cert system... Drones IV, afterburner 3, cruiser 2... Medium Hybrid turrets 1... THIS IS A SKILL SET I WOULD EXPECT A CERT FOR. I would call it "Basic Gallenite Cruisor Pilot" cert... I would be PROUD that I could offically be called a gallenite cruisor pilot because I had the weapon skills that my race uses and the piloting skills to handle an appropriate sized ship...
But instead last night I logged in and found myself training useless skills... and then I got ****ed off and stopped and went back to my normal training path... then I stopped and pondered... "do the devs even really play this game? Should a newbie player with only 3 weeks knowledge know that this is a BAD path for a newbie to take where as the Devs think it is HELPING them?"
I also feel that there are TOO MANY certs.... there are probably almost as many certs as there are skills... there is NO POINT in me showing off a very very large collection of certs if I could just as easily show off my list of skills because this list is equally long and difficult to wrap your mind around the "whole"
Like for an engineer... there sould be 1 type of armor tech cert... and 1 type of weapon cert... etc.
There should be a pilot cert for each CLASS of ships like cruisors... and it should be different for each race.
There should be a weaponry cert for each type of turret or launcher.
I could them look at someone and say "they are an excellent cruiser pilot who likes railguns but possibly not up to the full potential of a cruiser and specializes in making armor, shield arrays, and turrets... he is probably more of a trade skiller than a pirate... perhaps I will leave him to mine in peace"
But looking at the current certs... I have no idea what it says about someone besides "I have too much free time so I train useless skills in random patterns"
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CptEagle
Gallente Genius Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:53:00 -
[44]
Well I quite like it, I claimed all certificates I could get and then found some skills that still are quite usefull to train.
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Icarus Flame
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:11:00 -
[45]
I definitely like the cert system in theory. It has potential to attract a larger playerbase, and to provide noobs with early guidance.
However, the skill requirements should definitely be looked at. Lots of them make little sense, and will have players training useless skills just to get the shiny certificate. I know I am. CCP should review the system with input from the playerbase on which skill requirements should be kept, and which should be jettisoned.
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Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:19:00 -
[46]
I think it's a good idea, I've already found 2 skills which I forgot to train up to 5!
I'll never be showing my cert's publicly anyway, badbad. ________________________ I'M POOR
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:27:00 -
[47]
I have 9.9 mil in gunnery and not one certificate above level 2 --
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Florio
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:01:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Florio on 12/11/2008 19:02:19 i agree with the op.
the jump from improved to elite is too much, with elite status being ridiculous in many cases (lots of silly skills to level V). someone with specialist gun/missile skill IV should get an "advanced" certificate or something perhaps.
and they do not reflect reality. for instance, someone who can manufacture all t2 components should surely have recognition in the certificate system.
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Drevar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:39:00 -
[49]
Combat tracks are not the only ones that are incongruent with actual gameplay, or even downright misleading.
Take a look at the *Standard* Refinery Foreman. It requires Refining 5 which is fine. It also requires Refinery Efficiency 1 and Metallurgy 2, also fine. Then it slaps you in the face with Scrapmetal Processing 2. WTF!
I guess they failed to realize that to even learn Scrapmetal Processing you need to have Refinery Efficiency AND Metallurgy to level 5!
Just plain stupid.
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Xantheous
Minmatar Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:52:00 -
[50]
I think my point is. I have EVERY skill in projectile/arty/gunnery to level 5 but I don't care that they don't give me elites because I refuse to train rails, beams etc.. This is a good tool that will help the new cannon fodder with the Eve learning curve, some players might find it difficult to start (honestly, I did). Furthermore, why would any of you care if you think a new person is wasting their time training multitasking or some other obscure skill you find useless?
I honestly hope CCP uses these Certs as a prerequisite for T3 ships. That would certainly light a fire under the proverbial @$$.
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Captain Ziltoid
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:11:00 -
[51]
If you think these are bad, wait until you see "Elite Titan Operator!"
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Manos Malos
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2008 11:42:03 But what about those of us who do have all relevant skills at lvl 5 and are still labelled as standard? My heavy drones are totally maxed out including lvl 5 specialisation in my races drones. Max range, hitpoints, damage, e.c.t. yet still only classed as standard. Totally maxed out in passive tanking even the amp skills are all lvl 5 yet I am not an Elite passive tanker.
Wah wah, you poor soul. You're so uber, and now no one will ever know, because you don't have the certifications to prove it
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:18:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2008 21:27:58 Manos Malos said "Wah wah, you poor soul. You're so uber, and now no one will ever know, because you don't have the certifications to prove it " Actually I do have most of the certification I am complaining about. If you read my posts you would know that. This isn't about me showing off or complaining I cannot show off. You have completely missed the point. This is about how certifications dont show you a diffrence bettween the high end people and low end. In some rare cases I bealive the low end pilots show up as better then the high end pilots in certifications. A pilot doing far less damage then me with less drone skills shows up as better drone certifications then me. Just what use are certifications when that happens?
One of the key features of certifications was for corps to look at them to recruit people and to know what skills the corp memebers have. The people with the skills the corp want show up as not having the skills in certifications even though they have the skills.
In other words certifications fail at their job of letting CEO's and group leaders know what skills there pilots have. An example the gang leader is looking for a remote shield healer. None of his remote shield healers have the amour skills so they don't have decent remote shield certifications. So certifications fail.
A corp is looking to recruit shield healers but it cannot use certifications to see if the new recruits have decent remote shield skills as those pilots dont have amour skills so no remote shield certification. A corp wants to recruit drone users but most drone users don't waste time training ever single races drones. All the maxed out pilots in there own race appear to be at the same level as the standard pilots. Certifications fail again. What use are certifications when you cannot tell the high end people from the low end?
The example of my skill points and drones wasn't to show off. It was to show how the certifications system fails.
Manos Malos said "Furthermore, why would any of you care if you think a new person is wasting their time training multitasking or some other obscure skill you find useless?" We care as it's not helping the new players like it should. One of the goals is to show new people what to train. Not tell the new players to train 4+ skills that are next to useless which are not going help him. Just how is it going help new players to tell them to train in all 4 drone race skills? They would be much better off training down 1 or perhaps 2 race patchs, not 3 or 4. Same for the passive tank tree at least 5 of the skills most passive tankers dont use. So its telling new playres to train skills that more then likely are of no use.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Aslann
Gallente Win and God
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:49:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Hoshi I think most problems with too high skill requirements for Standard level (Core Targeting are not the only one) is because those specific certs do not have an Improved level.
This. Its stupid that I'm still classified standard in most of my gunnery certs while I have all blaster/rail specs at lvl 4. Who in their right mind trains everything to 5 anyways. (like EM armor comp skill for elite armor reinforcement, which also doesnt have ana improved version lolz..) ______________________
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Xantheous
Minmatar Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Pottsey
Manos Malos said "Furthermore, why would any of you care if you think a new person is wasting their time training multitasking or some other obscure skill you find useless?" We care as it's not helping the new players like it should. One of the goals is to show new people what to train. Not tell the new players to train 4+ skills that are next to useless which are not going help him. Just how is it going help new players to tell them to train in all 4 drone race skills? They would be much better off training down 1 or perhaps 2 race paths, not 3 or 4. Same for the passive tank tree at least 5 of the skills most passive tankers dont use. So its telling new playres to train skills that more then likely are of no use.
I said this not him.
As to your earlier point, If CEO's are recruiting or of assigning spots in a gang just based on certs before they see someone fly then they are complete idiots. Anyways, I see that your mind is set and thread is quickly becoming a frag fest so good luck proving your point.
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Nikkoli
Immortalis Kruoris
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:24:00 -
[56]
If I understand the recomendations part of the cert system, I am not even qualified to fly T1 frigates
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Khoda Khan
Minmatar Madar Kheyl tribe Zantiu-Braun Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:16:00 -
[57]
Certs are a good idea for the NUBs (New User Base), though CCP really went overboard on some of the pre-reqs for the improved/elite certs. These same comments were made about the system while it was being tested on SiSi the past few weeks, and CCP didn't bother to listen. They did manage to rename some of the certs before deployment to Tranquility (yay?) but it doesn't appear they took any of the feedback offered in regards to requirements.
!Khoda
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Jelosavich
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:27:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Jelosavich on 13/11/2008 00:27:37
Originally by: Tsureshon Any idiot that knows anything about drones would realize you are far better off getting Drones V or Scout Drones 5 before even TOUCHING drone navigation or drone durability.... yet to show I understand drones I have to take skills that any knowledgable player would claim is an extreme indicator that I do NOT understand drones.
Well then I must be an idiot, because I've got 10s of millions of SP and I still don't have Scout Drone 5, yet I have Drone Navigation, Durability, Interfacing, and whatever the other one is up to 3 or 4 each. Or maybe the real idiot is the one who said "You're better off getting the prerequesite (Drones V) for a skill before you get the skill (Nav or Durability)"
The certs DON'T need to be more specific. They're perfectly fine how general they are. If you want to know how good someone is all-around in logistics, there's a cert that says whether they have all 3 skills to a certain point. If you want to know how good someone is at Remote Shield Repairing... you can look at the skill with the same name.
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Sophia Esperanza
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:30:00 -
[59]
i love certificates, they pwn.
its fun to look at them, and it provides pathes for newer people, im not a noob and im loving it
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Leedana Synge
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:54:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Pottsey
In other words certifications fail at their job of letting CEO's and group leaders know what skills there pilots have. An example the gang leader is looking for a remote shield healer. None of his remote shield healers have the amour skills so they don't have decent remote shield certifications. So certifications fail.
A corp is looking to recruit shield healers but it cannot use certifications to see if the new recruits have decent remote shield skills as those pilots dont have amour skills so no remote shield certification. A corp wants to recruit drone users but most drone users don't waste time training ever single races drones. All the maxed out pilots in there own race appear to be at the same level as the standard pilots. Certifications fail again. What use are certifications when you cannot tell the high end people from the low end?
You have many good points, but this is not one of them. It is a fact that Certifications DO let CEO's and group leaders know what skills their pilots have to the degree that those skills are part of a Cert. What Cert's do not do, (and what you are actually saying), is let CEO's know what skills their pilots have when the pilot has only part of a certification, or related skills not covered by a Cert.
Here is an example of my point:
A gang leader is looking for a remote shield healer. Player X has the remote shield healer Cert. Therefore the gang leader knows that Player X is a qualified remote shield healer. Cert succeeded.
IF nobody the leader is looking at has the cert then it is true the gang leader has to check their skills individually. But he has to do that now ANYWAY. So the Cert definitely works when someone does happen to have it. If Cert's did not work this way then they may as well just tell you all of a players skills. Cert's are meant to be a shortcut to identifying people qualified in certain areas. They DO this, and there is no arguing that. What they DO NOT DO is identify people who are highly skilled in many valuable areas that do not happen to form a specific certification.
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