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Witcher
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:48:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Witcher on 12/11/2008 03:50:41
Look, guys certificate system gives me feeling that you ppl have no idea what we are talking here about, its just ******ed - I think a trial account member would put a certificate system together better than you did.
A couple of examples:
N.B. Im PURE amarr , no other **** trained , nothing, just amarr competency skills, armor, lasers etc.
1) To get Amarr Military forces Elite - I need only 1 cert - Core competency Standard, to get that , need core targeting standard, to get that need multitasking 1! LOL ? Multitasking is absolutelly useless skill i dont even wanna train this stuff, in order to cram up perfectly cleanely aligned skill sheet, this skill adds 0 value, as you can only target that many ships anyway, my apoc can handle 7.
2) Logistics chief - requires SHIELD TRANSFER 5 - whats the point, im pure amarr i dont have fukin bonus for shield transfer and im not training this **** because i dont need it and will never use it, but otherwise i have perfect skills for logistic chief elite.
What is the use of these kind of certificates ? Just plug in CHIEF OF EVERYTHING , standard/improved/elite ! lol
Seriously guys, its like you had no idea how this game is actually played lol )
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Witcher
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:00:00 -
[2]
In other words system of certificates is totally useless right now, as an experienced player i know skill system inside out and i dont need cert to navigate around. The only purpose cert serve for me is maybe showing off, even then i would think twice before showing off to my enemy what my skills are.
However for noobs current system of certs will be quite misleading, because right now it is very vague and does not give precise guidance. Just some general terms and planning ahead those skills which are suggested by cert system will cause players to learn some skills they totally dont need.
Getting back to my example - dont worry about time here , just think in terms of some undefined amount of time to learn skills. If I was a noob playing amarr, then looking at logistic chief cert i would learn shield, energy and armor transfers, but then once ill actually start flying logistic ill see that i have no bonus for shield, will be pretty stupid.
Of course you will argue that by the time you achieved logistics chief elite you would know the difference. However i think firstly its very important then to give appropriate guidance from the very start, and then i didnt have a chance to look through the whole system of certs, however if there glitches like this logistics chief elite cert, im sure there are many more glitches and as such the system is useless
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General Sadistis
Minmatar
Isk Fiends
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:01:00 -
[3]
i think the entire system is a fail and is a bad idea i really dont care about people trying to get their cert's to show off but personally i find it useless and bad to show off yer skills to your potential opponents
.: Brits Have No Sence Of Humor :. |
Damontir
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:35:00 -
[4]
Why are you getting all cooked over it?
Let CCP implement changes if the situation calls for that. Insulting the very company that strives to bring you new content and improvements for FREE doesn't help.
Just chill.
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DJ Geist
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:48:00 -
[5]
Yeah the certificate system, I noticed, seems to encourage training things that are not actually essential to my race or career path.
My theory is that CCP set this up as a time sink for people who don't know what to do with their skills. If they really don't know exactly what they train, then they may as well train something vaguely relevant for success on a certain 'certificate', which actually turns out to be a bit of a time sink.
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Artemis Rose
Varion Galactic
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:00:00 -
[6]
You could always opt to not use the certificate system.
1. Multitasking is useful if you need to lock a lot of targets, like a logistics/carrier might need to do.
2. As for the logistics officer, shield repping is just as much a part of logistics as armor repping/cap transfering. Of course you most likely won't be shield repping as a Pure Amarr Pilot.. but its a "Logistics Chief" not "Amarr Logistics Chief"
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Ruah Piskonit
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:41:00 -
[7]
Its an awful system. Sure, I suppose a newer player could use the guidance - but the skill set is too wide.
ECM specialist for example has all the racial ECMs in there. . .
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Therese Law
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:48:00 -
[8]
LOL
get over it.
use it or dont use it.
stop whining
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Firkragg
Blue Labs
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:53:00 -
[9]
1) multitasking is awesome
2) certs on really for long term players who know the game in and out. Instead they are there as a guide for newer players and they do that job quite well from what ive seen.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:58:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2008 08:01:13
90mill SP, 181 skills every single one at lvl 4 or 5 and I am mostly a basic/standard pilot.
"Why are you getting all cooked over it?"
It hurts the new players a lot by makeing them waste time training lots of skills they dont need.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Dikanal
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:12:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2008 08:01:13
90mill SP, 181 skills every single one at lvl 4 or 5 and I am mostly a basic/standard pilot.
"Why are you getting all cooked over it?"
It hurts the new players a lot by makeing them waste time training lots of skills they dont need.
Couldn't agree more they claimed the certificates are supposed to help newbies but if anything its going to put them off when they see the huge road ahead of them. I have a decent amount of SP and have level 4/5s in all the skills I mainly use but according to the certificates most of my stuff is basic and standard.
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:22:00 -
[12]
Of course the certificate system is set in stone and will never be changed based on player feedback /sarcasm off.
It's a first release, I am it will be finetuned some more. There's so much roles and levels you can't just get it right on the first go. If you think you can however nobody is stopping you from going to the suggestion forum and explain what you feel is wrong and how it could be corrected 
Diary of a pod pilot |
Dikanal
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
It's a first release, I am it will be finetuned some more. There's so much roles and levels you can't just get it right on the first go
Of course they should have got it right first go the project did not develop and code itself it has taken considerable time and effort to implement and they should have used that time and effort and did a good job from the outset instead of just throwing it together knowing monkeys like you will accept whatever trash is put in front of them.
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2008 08:01:13
90mill SP, 181 skills every single one at lvl 4 or 5 and I am mostly a basic/standard pilot.
"Why are you getting all cooked over it?"
It hurts the new players a lot by makeing them waste time training lots of skills they dont need.
Jup it does. That's why it hurts. Obviously, new players would do well just asking on the forums/people in game about what to train for what purpose, but still, just having this really adds more potential problems than 'kewl features'.
Also, yes:
1) multitasking is great
2) wtf you're moaning about logistics and you don't have multitasking?? shame on you, especially the amarr and caldari boats deserve multitasking 3 (and this is something I tell all potential logistics people!)
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me..
Drone guide.. |
Hoshi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Artemis Rose
You could always opt to not use the certificate system.
1. Multitasking is useful if you need to lock a lot of targets, like a logistics/carrier might need to do.
The majority of ships can't target enough targets to warrant multitasking. And even if they could there would be no point. If it's important to a logistics pilot than have it as part of a logistics certificate instead.
If they really have to have it them at least put it in a higher level, improved or elite. Don't make such a situaional skill part of Core Competency - Standard. It will just make noobs train pointless skills.
I have 53m sp but only Core Competency - Basic
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:21:00 -
[16]
It's good system as it gives reasonable pointers for pilots. And let's face it, relevant skills at level 4 is 'standard' and 'elite' means that you have ALL relevant skills for that field maxsed. If you have mix of lev 3/lev 4 skills for a field then it's pretty basic for that field and so on.
New pilots will need just to understand, what 'elite' means in certs and not to despair that they cant reach elite levels in only few months of training after char creation. Same goes for old guys - having 100 mil sp does not mean you will have all fields 'elite' bcos you have a lot of SP. It's not the size that matters but how you use it - I have heard being told to people sometimes 
Yeah. I was also staring at long row of 'basic' certs after claiming them. Will I rethink my training plan over it ? Not likely - I have pretty good idea what I want to do and what skills I need for it. Then again I might push few shorter 'side' skills up few notches to get better mark in some cert .
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:41:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2008 11:42:03
Carniflex said ôAnd let's face it, relevant skills at level 4 is 'standard' and 'elite' means that you have ALL relevant skills for that field maxsed. If you have mix of lev 3/lev 4 skills for a field then it's pretty basic for that field and so on.ö
But what about those of us who do have all relevant skills at lvl 5 and are still labelled as standard?
My heavy drones are totally maxed out including lvl 5 specialisation in my races drones. Max range, hitpoints, damage, e.c.t. yet still only classed as standard. Totally maxed out in passive tanking even the amp skills are all lvl 5 yet I am not an Elite passive tanker. The skill I am missing is bad for passive tankers and none of us take it to lvl 5.
Logistical support is just the same. You can be totally maxed out as a shield support pilot and be classed as basic or standard. Same for gang support. I am maxed out on the bonus I give yet it classed me as standard.
The idea behind certs is great but itÆs been very poorly implanted.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Hoshi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:49:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Carniflex
It's good system as it gives reasonable pointers for pilots. And let's face it, relevant skills at level 4 is 'standard' and 'elite' means that you have ALL relevant skills for that field maxsed. If you have mix of lev 3/lev 4 skills for a field then it's pretty basic for that field and so on.
Yes I agree that's how it should be but that's not how it is. Standard level certificates requiring non-relevant skills at level 5 as in the example about with targeting.
The targeting thing was pointed out to the devs and they actually lowered it from their initial plan that was Multitasking 5 for Core Competency - Elite and 3 for Standard if I remember correctly. But for some strange reason they still stuck with requiring Multitasking 1 for the standard level when it should have been lowered to targeting 4.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:00:00 -
[19]
Yeah well. I'm not claiming that there is nothing to debate about if this or that particular cert should have all those re****ents or not. At first glance several certs have quite wide dependcies to be granted.
As far as multitasking goes under 'core' stuff in my opinion it's justified. I use on regular basis 10-12 targeting slots (depending on my fit on that particular ship). Targeting 5 might have been enough tho, as it would give enough targeting slots on most ships to fully utilize them, targeting 4 would not quite cut it as most ship can lock 7 to 8 targets before additional fittings.
I have feeling that dev's whent with this on the route 'better more skills than missing something relevant', so if you have 'elite' in some area you can be sure you have properly maxsed skills in all situations in that area - even in unlikely cases like Maraduer with Signal Amp II to lock 12 targets.
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Hoshi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Carniflex
As far as multitasking goes under 'core' stuff in my opinion it's justified. I use on regular basis 10-12 targeting slots (depending on my fit on that particular ship). Targeting 5 might have been enough tho, as it would give enough targeting slots on most ships to fully utilize them, targeting 4 would not quite cut it as most ship can lock 7 to 8 targets before additional fittings.
I think you mean most Caldari ships. For Minmatar the only ships with more than 6 targets are Battleships, Marauders, Black Ops, Recons, Logistics and Carriers. Of those only Battleships could be considered part of Standard level and for Battleships Multitasking 1 would still be pointless as they all have 7 targets max. And being able to lock the max amount of targets the ship possibly can is not being able to fly it at a decent level but maxing it out (so Elite level).
I don't have a problem with the Elite requirements, they could have kept Multitasking 5 for that if they wanted but for for Standard level it's completely wasted.
I think that part of the problem with the high requirements for standard for many certs are the fact that many cert trees are missing improved versions. They go directly from Standard to Elite. There is also the small problem with the display where you have 5 ticks but only 4 levels. This makes the first problem even worse as having such high requirements for Standard when it only get you 2 out of 5 ticks.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:31:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hoshi
There is also the small problem with the display where you have 5 ticks but only 4 levels. This makes the first problem even worse as having such high requirements for Standard when it only get you 2 out of 5 ticks.
Hehe yeh. I was also a bit shocked at first glance looking at long row of 1 and 2 tick certs after claiming them wondering if I am really that 'bad'. Have 99 certs atm out of them only 8 are 'elite'. 6 of them in 'core' section, hull tanking (lol) and some race initial profession specific - caldary: soldier I think it was. In my own eyes I'm ofc competent in more areas than those with 'elite' stamp pressed on them but meh - I know I'm competent even if I lack the required lev 5 is some not-so-critical part of skilltree. Should the lack of stars on my coat irritate me enough then I can always go and train the missing parts to have even bigger e-peen.
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:37:00 -
[22]
Why do i need shield management 5 to be classes as an elite armor tanker? 0_o
EVE History Wiki
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:43:00 -
[23]
'kewl' was out a few years ago, you're too late 
Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar |
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dikanal
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
It's a first release, I am it will be finetuned some more. There's so much roles and levels you can't just get it right on the first go
Of course they should have got it right first go the project did not develop and code itself it has taken considerable time and effort to implement and they should have used that time and effort and did a good job from the outset instead of just throwing it together knowing monkeys like you will accept whatever trash is put in front of them.
Troll, right? Name me any product/service that got it entirely right from the first release and never ever had to finetune.
Diary of a pod pilot |
Harrent
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:50:00 -
[25]
Cert system should have come out months if not years ago :/.
Sorry, but Evemon will be my primary planning tool.
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Semper Fi |
Zombie Kenny
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Reiisha
Why do i need shield management 5 to be classes as an elite armor tanker? 0_o
This. 
Seems weird
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Mordekai Bloodwake
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2008 11:42:03
Carniflex said ôAnd let's face it, relevant skills at level 4 is 'standard' and 'elite' means that you have ALL relevant skills for that field maxsed. If you have mix of lev 3/lev 4 skills for a field then it's pretty basic for that field and so on.ö
But what about those of us who do have all relevant skills at lvl 5 and are still labelled as standard?
My heavy drones are totally maxed out including lvl 5 specialisation in my races drones. Max range, hitpoints, damage, e.c.t. yet still only classed as standard. Totally maxed out in passive tanking even the amp skills are all lvl 5 yet I am not an Elite passive tanker. The skill I am missing is bad for passive tankers and none of us take it to lvl 5.
Logistical support is just the same. You can be totally maxed out as a shield support pilot and be classed as basic or standard. Same for gang support. I am maxed out on the bonus I give yet it classed me as standard.
The idea behind certs is great but itÆs been very poorly implanted.
Ill try to make this simple since you suffer from the "Look at me, Rambo syndrome!" .. The 'current' iteration of the cert system isnt NOT taking into account RACE specific in most areas, instead it only looks at the area as a WHOLE.
Allow me to use your comments as an example incase you still cant relate; YOUR drone skills in YOUR RACE at V doesnt mean YOUR ellite in DRONE's, it means YOUR standard at DRONE OVERALL, how if the cert system had a RACE specific area then YOU would be ellite at Gallente Drone Operations.
Personally, i enjoy the new cert system and it WILL give new players a sense of direction without having to realize, OH GEEZ i left Caldari Drone 2 cause im a DPS wanna be and only maxed Gallente Drone V.
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Dikanal
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
Originally by: Dikanal
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
It's a first release, I am it will be finetuned some more. There's so much roles and levels you can't just get it right on the first go
Of course they should have got it right first go the project did not develop and code itself it has taken considerable time and effort to implement and they should have used that time and effort and did a good job from the outset instead of just throwing it together knowing monkeys like you will accept whatever trash is put in front of them.
Troll, right? Name me any product/service that got it entirely right from the first release and never ever had to finetune.
You go and buy a new car and when its delivered you find out a wheel is missing and the radio is missing and the AC makes the inside of the car smell like a fish market would you sign for it and think "well they cant be expected to get it right first time"?
Stuff being incomplete or not entirely right is called beta and should not be fobbed off to us and better still we should not accept it and consumers like you are to blame for the constantly falling standards.
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Witcher
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:42:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dikanal
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
Originally by: Dikanal
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
It's a first release, I am it will be finetuned some more. There's so much roles and levels you can't just get it right on the first go
Of course they should have got it right first go the project did not develop and code itself it has taken considerable time and effort to implement and they should have used that time and effort and did a good job from the outset instead of just throwing it together knowing monkeys like you will accept whatever trash is put in front of them.
Troll, right? Name me any product/service that got it entirely right from the first release and never ever had to finetune.
You go and buy a new car and when its delivered you find out a wheel is missing and the radio is missing and the AC makes the inside of the car smell like a fish market would you sign for it and think "well they cant be expected to get it right first time"?
Stuff being incomplete or not entirely right is called beta and should not be fobbed off to us and better still we should not accept it and consumers like you are to blame for the constantly falling standards.
I agree to this btw. Even though there should be some sort of scope for not making it perfectly right, cos nonone can get it perfectly right for the first time. However it should be polished to the maximum extent possible. And as the systerm stands now its unacceptable. Im getting back again to that stupid chief logistics elite certificate, which does not differentiate between shield and armor transfer support - which just does not make sense from a game play point of view.
Then you should also be making capital shield and armor transfer uniformed category, and that DEFINENETLY does not make sense at all, since noneone will be asked to train capital shield transfer 5 unless they got an apprpriate racial bonus, hence nobody will be obtaining this kind of certificate and it is indeed USELESS.
Comon CCP turn your brains ON !
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Cincannatus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pottsey
But what about those of us who do have all relevant skills at lvl 5 and are still labelled as standard?
My heavy drones are totally maxed out including lvl 5 specialisation in my races drones. Max range, hitpoints, damage, e.c.t. yet still only classed as standard.
The idea behind certs is great but itÆs been very poorly implanted.
goodness me, well......oh dear where to begin....
look to be elite you have to have maximal skills possible in that field. if you DO NOT have maximised SP in other races, how on earth could you be considered elite?
but hey, certificates are purely optional,and remember just because you think you deserve the certificate, doesnt mean you actually do.
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