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An easy way to prevent GTC token scams.

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ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:53:00 - [1] I have forced myself to read through 3 complete threads regarding these new in game time tokens. I personally do not feel that these should be subject to scamming as they are literaly real money. I get that Eve is "dangerous", but I'll bet there is a court somewhere in the world that won't think scamming people with something so close to real life money is a legitimate thing to do. But I digress. EASY FIX: DO NOT ALLOW PLAYERS TO PUT WANT TO BUY ORDERS INVOLVING THESE TOKENS. ONLY SELL ORDERS ARE ALLOWED. Easy to program and a great compromise between not being able to stop scamming versus having to take them out because they can't stop the scamming with current controls. Shows that they at least took SOME steps to prevent theft and cons, and why would you not do that for your player base??? If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:54:00 - [2] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 13/11/2008 22:55:28 Originally by: ArcDragon Shows that they at least took SOME steps to prevent theft and cons, and why would you not do that for your player base??? Because they are in-game items, and in-game items are subject to scamming. You really think CCP didn't think about this carefully? That they can be contracted is CCP's statement on them. Originally by: ArcDragon I personally do not feel that these should be subject to scamming as they are literaly real money. This is also incorrect, they are not real money. They are items bought with real money. - DesuSigs
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:58:00 - [3] I really hoped for a different attitude for a first reply. As I stated, I read those threads where they said exactly what you are stating. So I will reitterate: Why would you NOT prevent scamming to a larger degree just for this item BECAUSE IT IS REAL LIFE MONEY? Quit being daft about it and admit that it should be treated differntly than other items. It's not difficult, no Want to Buy orders allowed when this item is on the table. If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested.
Salarc Salarc Research industries	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:00:00 - [4] Want to buy orders do not allow scams, the player has to look at a price and accept. Further they are important to establishing a proper market for the cards.
Aphena Geo	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:01:00 - [5] The small problem with making them JUST Sell orders is what I wanted 4 or 5 of them.. I would place a buy order for 5 of them for say 1.4B. as it would save just a little ISK per PLEX. I know someone would take that, as they look at it, it would be 20mil per PLEX so they may take that deal. What I don't like is the fact they have to be activated in the station you're at. Meaning that 90% of these will be sold in Jita, which mean if you want more time, you either pay a premium for no travel time, or Autopilot to Jita once a month. They should activate from your assets window.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Aphena Geo The small problem with making them JUST Sell orders is what I wanted 4 or 5 of them.. I would place a buy order for 5 of them for say 1.4B. as it would save just a little ISK per PLEX. I know someone would take that, as they look at it, it would be 20mil per PLEX so they may take that deal. What I don't like is the fact they have to be activated in the station you're at. Meaning that 90% of these will be sold in Jita, which mean if you want more time, you either pay a premium for no travel time, or Autopilot to Jita once a month. They should activate from your assets window. Um they do activate from your assets window.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Salarc Want to buy orders do not allow scams, the player has to look at a price and accept. Further they are important to establishing a proper market for the cards. This.
Nasty Master	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:08:00 - [8] "Scamming" nowadays is almost fully neglience of the buyer, rather then skill of the scammer. Don't be an idiot and you won't get scammed. ^ This is a signature line, CCP needs to implement one.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:11:00 - [9] Originally by: ArcDragon So I will reitterate: Why would you NOT prevent scamming to a larger degree just for this item BECAUSE IT IS REAL LIFE MONEY? Because it is not real money. Because the purpose of putting it in the in-game market is to make it subject to the in-game market, and the in-game market includes scamming. Originally by: ArcDragon Quit being daft about it and admit that it should be treated differently than other items. Your argument as to why is illogical. Quit being daft and accept that the way you want things to be isn't necessarily the way they should be. - DesuSigs
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:13:00 - [10] Don't see the need for this, altho it'd be fine if ccp decided to implement it. I doubt they will. If it was that easy i bet they already would have. Also, the tokens arent real money anymore then anything else is on that market: token order to order for stuff like ore : one step $ to token: two steps [center] Old blog

Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:21:00 - [11] why the heck is a buy order scamming? if i make a buy order for 400k and someone sells me a GTC then they sold me a GTC for exactly the price i listed and exactly the price they saw and clicked on wth is the big deal about that? -- Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Gojyu Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:45:00 - [12] It is not real money. The second you break your gtc into two plex's, it automatically becomes ccp's property. You no longer own it.
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:45:00 - [13] A Want to Buy order is the principle vehicle for scamming, it is by no means the only one. Here is the scam: I make a Want to Buy order for a game time token stating in the description that others choose my contract over others for (at first) to state "Want to Buy: 1 GTC for 450m" I put in only 450,000 isk, or perhaps, 45,000,000 isk. You get the picture. If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested.
Mire Stoude Cash Money Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Crumplecorn You really think CCP didn't think about this carefully? Because we all know that CCP has a long history of thinking of things carefully before they announce/make changes.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:54:00 - [15] Originally by: ArcDragon Here is the scam: I make a Want to Buy order for a game time token stating in the description that others choose my contract over others for (at first) to state "Want to Buy: 1 GTC for 450m" I put in only 450,000 isk, or perhaps, 45,000,000 isk. Typos happen all the time. Originally by: Mire Stoude Originally by: Crumplecorn You really think CCP didn't think about this carefully? Because we all know that CCP has a long history of thinking of things carefully before they announce/make changes. And they always have an answer ready when people question them on the changes, right? - DesuSigs
Mallikan Gallente Plundering Penguins Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:10:00 - [16] Learn two things. 1. Personal Responsibility. You did it, it's your fault. 2. Reading the details. It doesn't take that long and you might slow down just long enough to enjoy life for two seconds. --- For great justice. Or something.
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 14/11/2008 00:19:39 Well, there's a simple way of avoiding Want to Buy Scams involving PLEX's. Don't fulfill them. If you have a PLEX you want to sell, then put up your own Sell Contract. Yes, it might take a little bit longer to sell, however you're less likely to be involved in a scam that way. Unless you're the one doing the scamming of course Finally, even with WTB contracts, the easiest way of avoiding the scam is to ignore the description and Read whats actually being asked for and what you'll receive in return. The first alarm bell should be if there's a price listed in the Description itself.
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:21:00 - [18] Edited by: I SoStoned on 14/11/2008 00:23:01 I fully agree with the OP: Buy orders more than 100% below the prevalent market should simply not be allowed. IMO there needs to be a function in the market that filters out buy and sell orders exceeding a median percentage you can choose (i.e. No buy orders show more than 100% below or sell orders more than 100% above the median regional average). I'd love to see this implemented for contracts, as well. I would LOVE to just not see 'want to buy' orders, period. 1% of them are legitimate buyers and 99% are just twits. Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Finally, even with WTB contracts, the easiest way of avoiding the scam is to ignore the description and Read whats actually being asked for and what you'll receive in return. The first alarm bell should be if there's a price listed in the Description itself. Never use the description field... always use the exact item search. It'll automatically filter out the scams (other than the stupid 'want to buy' crap). And any time you view a contract, look at the highlighted yellow test, it tells you in big bold letters exactly what's in the contract.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:26:00 - [19] Originally by: I SoStoned IMO there needs to be a function in the market that filters out buy and sell orders exceeding a median percentage you can choose (i.e. No buy orders show more than 100% below or sell orders more than 100% above the median regional average). Quoting as it demonstrates the poster's knowledge of the game. - DesuSigs
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:33:00 - [20] Quote: A Want to Buy order is the principle vehicle for scamming, it is by no means the only one. Here is the scam: I make a Want to Buy order for a game time token stating in the description that others choose my contract over others for (at first) to state "Want to Buy: 1 GTC for 450m" I put in only 450,000 isk, or perhaps, 45,000,000 isk. You get the picture. You have at your disposal: Minimum and max isk filters. Use them. Below that "WTB 1 GTC 450 mil" is also a generated text from the data Cost: -450,000 ISK. Reading 101 since you don't get it. 450,000 is Four hundred and fifty thousand, not four hundred and fifty million (450,000,000). also this: Quote: why the heck is a buy order scamming? if i make a buy order for 400k and someone sells me a GTC then they sold me a GTC for exactly the price i listed and exactly the price they saw and clicked on wth is the big deal about that? and this: Quote: "Scamming" nowadays is almost fully neglience of the buyer, rather then skill of the scammer. Don't be an idiot and you won't get scammed. Don't be a r-tard. Your mum told you to look before crossing the road for a reason. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

Kransthow The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:34:00 - [21] Originally by: I SoStoned IMO there needs to be a function in the market that filters out buy and sell orders exceeding a median percentage you can choose (i.e. No buy orders show more than 100% below or sell orders more than 100% above the median regional average). But then how will I get people to pay me for taking those pesky gtc of their hands?
Killer Kelly The Social Club	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:48:00 - [22] If they can't read, **** em.
Kala'Sindra	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:52:00 - [23] Edited by: Kala''Sindra on 14/11/2008 00:54:58 Originally by: Crumplecorn Typos happen all the time. Are you insinuating that CCP can't punish people for making a typo in those situations? I see no reason for that to be the case Originally by: Killer Kelly If they can't read, **** em. Yes yes all very high and mighty but you might want to consider that EVE couldn't be much more unintuitive to beginners. A lot of scams are only 'obvious' once you've been playing the game for a while; newbs don't have that luxury
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Kala'Sindra Originally by: Crumplecorn Typos happen all the time. Are you insinuating that CCP can't punish people for making a typo in those situations? I see no reason for that to be the case If they want to they can, but why punish people for typos? That's just mean. - DesuSigs
Kala'Sindra	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Crumplecorn That's just mean. Well this is EVE
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Kala'Sindra Originally by: Crumplecorn That's just mean. Well this is EVE CCP don't usually take such a direct hand in the meanness though. Though it might be funny if they did. Like "Hey you, yeah you, AFKing in the freighter. You're in lowsec, but there's no-one around to, eh, educate you. So we just cancelled your account. Ha ha - the GMs". - DesuSigs
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.11.14 01:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Kala'Sindra Are you insinuating that CCP can't punish people for making a typo in those situations? I see no reason for that to be the case This whole forum would be f'ed if that logic applied. No one here can spell to save their life...no offense :¦ ------------------------------------
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2008.11.14 01:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Mire Stoude Originally by: Crumplecorn You really think CCP didn't think about this carefully? Because we all know that CCP has a long history of thinking of things carefully before they announce/make changes. I lolled hardily, looked at my raven, then cried, but that's for another thread. If these things were just another game item, you would be able to undock with them.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.11.14 01:16:00 - [29] I think buy orders and WTB contracts are great, because after filtering out all the idiots looking for a PLEX for 1 isk, you get an idea of what buyers are thinking.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.11.14 01:21:00 - [30] They should not have been part of the contract system. They should have a unique controled system. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.

Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.11.14 01:22:00 - [31] I agree with the OP tbh. In game items with a theoretical RL cash value are one thing. In game items with a real direct RL cash value are another. It is a whole different kettle of fish letting people scam other people for what basically amounts to RL money.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.14 01:23:00 - [32] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 14/11/2008 01:25:15 Originally by: Brea Lafail If these things were just another game item, you would be able to undock with them. A interesting point. However, the logic behind this is easily deduced. The reason they don't let you remove them from station (and I believe this has been stated) is so they don't inadvertently end up getting destroyed. If this were allowed, it would be possible for CCP to receive a payment for subscription time, and have it rendered impossible for that subscription time to be redeemed, essentially allowing CCP to get money for nothing. This would be unacceptable, as in this instance real money is lost, an item with real world value is bought, and that real world value is removed. However, this logic does not apply to scamming, as the PLEX card can still be used after a scam, a player has merely done themselves out of some in-game ISKies. The real-world value of the item is intact, all the 'damage' is done purely in-game, and such in-game losses are part of EVE life. So, while there is a genuine reason to treat them as a special item to prevent their destruction, the only reason one could have to treat them as a special item to prevent scamming is still to protect stupid players. tl;dr: Destroying a PLEX card destroys real world value, scamming merely parts you with ISKies. - DesuSigs
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.11.14 02:13:00 - [33] Edited by: Koyama Ise on 14/11/2008 02:14:55 One way to make people happy about this is allowing them to determine a price range that will show up for the item and not just the entire market. Cause at the moment I can make it so everything under price y or above price x doesn't show but I can't say for item z under price y doesn't show and above price x doesn't show. It's a market UI feature that could probably be implemented client side assuming CCP hasn't coded the market entirely wierd. Originally by: Crumplecorn ISKs aren't real money. Full stop. ISK... sorry couldn't resist...
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.11.14 02:19:00 - [34] Quote: Originally by: Davina Braben It is a whole different kettle of fish letting people scam other people for what basically amounts to RL money. ISKs aren't real money. Full stop. If you are confused about this, stop buying ISK for a minute and re-evaluate your grip on reality. Well comma in general usage as ingame currency I agree full stop It's different when we're talking about paying for subs full stop new paragraph GTC sales are already kind of grey area full stop An uncomfortable grey area because it makes the basic rule that all ISK is property of CCP a bit questionable full stop new paragraph Taking that one step further and making an ingame GTC equivalent subject to all the usual vagaries of the contract system propels the whole thing into some weird territory of the sort I'd imagine CCP would probably rather leave to Linden Labs full stop
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2008.11.14 22:49:00 - [35] This is my last comment for this post and I think I can make an excellent point. The new Game Time Tokens, or PLEX's, can only exist within the game as a direct result of a player sending CCP cash. They can not be mined, they can not be constructed and they can not even travel like every other "in game" item. It is not hard to see such a relationship and description being true. It is because these particular items are UNIQUE and fully and DIRECTLEY represent a monetary value which the parent company (CCP) has implied the uniqueness of by making them not being transportable like say, a ship or a module or a skill book or minerals, and as such they should NOT be subject to the normal methods of scamming. Liability could be an issue (jursdiction unknown) if a court saw that the company allowed this "money marker" to be subjected to the entire Eve player base but did nothing to stop the scamming (theft) of these items. Again, why would you NOT do this for your player base CCP? Can you imagine the turn off that occurs when potential new players find out that you can be SCAMMED out of real life money??? CCP, are you nuts? I applaud this idea of PLEX's and them being on the market and available in contracts, that's a great all Eve maneuver, but I'd rather them NOT be available like this if CCP is not at least willing to take some kind of measure for protection on just these items. It's real money and therefore unique and should therefore be treated as such. SUMMARY: For scams: 1) It's just stupid people that get scammed 2) It's just an in game item, treat it like my 75mm railgun please 3) It's just a typo dude, chill out Against scams: 1) It only enters the game via a cash purchase, it therefore counts more like real life money than any other item 2) There is enough resources available to CCP to actually implement a sa*aurd of some kind 3) If I find out that CCP has the ability to stop me from selling to someone playing a typo game and they did nothing at all.... Proposed fix:** Instead of removing them, and instead of doing nothing, let's compromise: 1) Code the condition that if a game time token (PLEX) is involved in any contract then it must be the ONLY item in that contract. 2) Code that a game time token (PLEX)can never be included in a "Want to Buy" contract. I don't think I am asking a lot, especially considering that these might as well be real cash sitting in a space station. Please do something to help the stupid, help the ones that can't type, help the ones that can't read and especially help those that don't know any better because they have only played the game for a month. PS: If I got scammed out of one of these I'd definatly feel like I had been robbed. Until there are more safeguards I will not use them in any manner. So if you want these to be more successful for all of your players, make the announcement that they are scam proofed in some manner. I'll bet it helps! Respectfully, Arc. If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:20:00 - [36] Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 14/11/2008 23:21:41 Originally by: ArcDragon Poor point Your idea completely falls apart on one crucial issue. Imagine CCP just flat out one day said *"Instead of this GTC rubbish, lets just let players buy ISK with money from us"* If I am then scammed out of that ISK, is CCP liable in any way? Of course not. And lets extend this further. Imagine I buy a GTC with cash. Then I sell that GTC for 350 mil ISK. I then get scammed into purchasing a Raven advertised as a CNR for 350 mil. Should CCP be accountable, since I may as well have just been scammed for the GTC? Of course not! You pay CCP real cash for a service, which is access to a bunch of database entries which you have restricted read and modification rights to, and the interface onto this just happens to be a space simulation. CCP is not forcing you to exchange a 60 day GTC for these plex items. If you choose to do so, you take every risk that goes with it. If you stuff up and lose that to a cheap buy order because you were an idiot and didn't read the contract properly, CCP is no more liable than if I bought a months subscription, forgot I going away somewhere for a month (aka was an idiot), and never logged in during that period.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:29:00 - [37] Originally by: ArcDragon The same crap again PLEX cards aren't real money. It being treated in a special manner as regards movement does not imply that it should necessarily be treated in a special manner as regards anything else. Since your entire argument is still predicated on these, it fails. Originally by: ArcDragon scamming (theft) Idiot. - DesuSigs
RedLion Caldari State Constructions	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:36:00 - [38] I support this feature! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
FunzzeR Statistical Arbitrage	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:45:00 - [39] Edited by: FunzzeR on 14/11/2008 23:47:59 I honestly don't understand how people can fall for most of the scams in eve, as they all rely on failure of the buyer to do their due dilligence and pay attention. It would be much simpler if people followed two simple rules: 1. Trust no one. 2. If it seems too good to be true... it usually is. Eve should not be made more idiot proof than it already is.
needrandomnamegenerator	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:47:00 - [40] Originally by: ArcDragon delusional babbling You are quite possibly the dumbest man/woman on these forums, why can you just stop being daft and admit it? You were pretty much doomed to failure in this thread by using the end tag of my first sentence in reference to the first poster. You do understand that your way of seeing things could possibly flawed, as you, and your knowledge of the world, and its varied court systems is obviously not perfect?

Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:54:00 - [41] Would be nice to have some sort of filter option for contracts, like only showing ItemX from 10m to 60m
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.15 00:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Would be nice to have some sort of filter option for contracts, like only showing ItemX from 10m to 60m There is. Click the advanced options on the contracts page.
Celestal	Posted - 2008.11.15 03:58:00 - [43] CCP has not made any special exceptions for the PLEX items. They are treated as regular in-game items with regards to market orders and contracts. Scams are easily avoidable by careful scrutiny of market orders and contracts and we urge anyone to be alert when dealing in PLEXes. As ccp have made it public on many occasions that they actively encourage scamming and now they consider PLEXes to be scammable items they can shove PLEXes up their arses , I will only deal in secure gtc trading ( as long as ccp keep it secure )


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