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My drake...is it dead?

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Solareni	Posted - 2008.11.16 17:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Warrio Wait! Are you telling me that a Battlecruiser cannot AFK solo every level 4 mission? Get the **** out of here!! I haven't found one my Eos cant solo yet! Except the gas harvesting and ice mining ones. Oh and haul the large cargo...
Al Drevika	Posted - 2008.11.16 18:42:00 - [32] OK, I've refrained from comment on the 50+ threads about the missile / speed nerf. Here's my take: (1) Yes, the Drake/Raven/Caldari missile advantage in PvP was a problem. But it's not like Amarr pulse laser people couldn't unleash a f***load of DPS in PvP, too. I got my butt handed to me and podded in my Drake several times in my last corp war. Granted, I'm not PvP focused, but my Drake probably should have lasted more than 10 seconds. To just nerf everything (missiles, blasters, and yes, you Amarr MFs will see your laser nerf soon enough) just means it will take us ALL 4 hours to complete our missions. Which brings me to my next point.. (2) .. if PvP has a problem, make your nerf PVP specific. Maybe that means just taking the NPC defense stats down 30%. I like mission running. PvP doesn't interest me because I'm well past puberty. The endless nerfing to satisfy whining pimply-faced PvPers just means it will take me 3 hours to finish an 4-room L3 mission that used to take me a more reasonable time period. I'd switch to exploration, but you idiots nerfed that, too. Thanks.
Karad Forsky Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.16 19:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Al Drevika ...but my Drake probably should have lasted more than 10 seconds. If you were fighting something capable of popping a Drake in 10 seconds, then no, it shouldn't have lasted more than that. You're exagerating though because to achieve that you either need to have a terrible Drake setup or like 5 geddons with 3 HS and SB each. Originally by: Al Drevika .. if PvP has a problem, make your nerf PVP specific. Eve is a complete game. It is not "PvP-Online" and "PvE-Online" in a convenient package. When a mechanic is changed it affects the whole game not just a specific part of it. Originally by: Al Drevika I like mission running. PvP doesn't interest me because I'm well past puberty. The endless nerfing to satisfy whining pimply-faced PvPers just means it will take me 3 hours to finish an 4-room L3 mission ... Quoting for complete and utter failure.
Mutabae	Posted - 2008.11.16 19:59:00 - [34] Originally by: Al Drevika PvP doesn't interest me because I'm well past puberty. WOW, an actual carebear! I thought they were just a bugaboo brought out to scare the children. Consider my mind blown.
Dracthera	Posted - 2008.11.16 20:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Al Drevika ...The endless nerfing to satisfy whining pimply-faced PvPers just means it will take me 3 hours to finish an 4-room L3 mission that used to take me a more reasonable time period. Try perhaps loading your missiles launchers with actual missiles instead of milkduds. Might help you a bit... Seriously, it takes you 3 hours to finish a 4-room L3 mission in your Drake?!? It takes me less than that to finish a 4-room L4 mission in my Drake, and now that I'm working on standings for a different corp I'm doing L3 missions in under 30 minutes. Something's not right with your setup, mate.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.11.16 20:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Solareni Originally by: Warrio Wait! Are you telling me that a Battlecruiser cannot AFK solo every level 4 mission? Get the **** out of here!! I haven't found one my Eos cant solo yet! Except the gas harvesting and ice mining ones. Oh and haul the large cargo... Actually, Eos make excellent gas harvesters :) -- 249km locking?
Ceremony Garp Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.11.16 22:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Chssmius Edited by: Chssmius on 15/11/2008 16:26:15 EDIT: Started on this before both of you replied again. Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 15/11/2008 14:07:05 Akita, that graph is pure EFT-style nonsense showing no regard to realistic game situations. You haven't even included MWD sig bloom, let alone the inability of a ABing cruiser to avoid getting webbed. You haven't even plotted where certain ships with plausible fits would fall on that graph, pre- and post-QR. Granted that graph would be much more useful if the input variables were given but some of that can be extrapolated from the curve. It is true that this sort of raw information that doesn't account for combat dynamics doesn't tell the whole story. However, it is very useful to know the tends. It can help you make decisions when fitting, planing and deciding on strategies, and even during combat. Assuming it is a plot of Stafens formula, it looks like a signature radius of ~125 or ~130(fairly typical for a cruiser). What is less simple to find is any skills or other assumptions that go into the graph, but the curve trend overall shouldn't be affected over much, though it might be pushed up/down or left/right a little by skills. Normal speeds for a cruiser would be on the order of a few hundred m/s, so suppose 150 m/s to 300 m/s, though there is lots of variation of base speed adjusted for speed mods, skills, etc. Roughly double that for an AB with no sig bloom. Using the graph given. At full speed(no AB or MWD) you can expect anywhere between ~5% to ~45% damage reduction on the cruiser. Using an AB, then anywhere between ~45% to ~65% damage reduction on the cruiser. Web him once and he is back in the full speed region for damage reduction, twice and you should be doing full damage. The effect of an MWD's sig bloom would have on the damage would need another graph I think as it would be an over sized battleship(sig of something like ~600 or ~700) traveling at 1.0 km/s to 2.0 km/s typically for most crusiers. My guess would be that at those speeds the damage taken would be on the order of that taken at full speed without an AB. A comment on Stafen formula, I find it to be accurate at mid to lower speeds for most signature radii. I say this because it seems to over estimate the damage taken by ships with frigate and destroyer sized signature radii traveling at ~2 km/s and ~5 km/s respectively. Though the overestimation is not generally very significant. The overestimation that I observed at high speeds is a matter of 20% to 50 % which translates to about 4 to 10 DPS which is, I think, within the uncertainty of our information. Otherwise, it seems to be a very good representation of missile damage closely mimicking real damage observations. Bloody hell. This is too much. Just. Too much.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:00:00 - [38] Huh... Well I got completely bored yesterday and tried a L4 mission again. Did Recon 1 (Gurista) in a Drake with the intention of killing everything in the first room. AB, 2x LSE, 3x Hardeners. Gotta say I was a bit disappointed. I never dropped below 85-90% shields. I used to drop down to 40-50%. Cruises hitting for less than 25? Missions became way too easy with the missile change. It would have been even more ridiculous if I had decent missile skills or a Nighthawk. Drake ain't dead for PvE. Not even close.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:22:00 - [39] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 17/11/2008 00:23:17 Originally by: Mutabae Originally by: Al Drevika PvP doesn't interest me because I'm well past puberty. WOW, an actual carebear! I thought they were just a bugaboo brought out to scare the children. Consider my mind blown. Yes Mutabae, they do exist. This one is particularly rare to find alive in the wild as it is of a variety that doesn't understand that much of the more advanced game play in EVE is PVP related and has a strong appeal for the post-30 (or yes even post-40) crowd.
Al Drevika	Posted - 2008.11.19 15:35:00 - [40] Originally by: Karad Forsky Eve is a complete game. It is not "PvP-Online" and "PvE-Online" in a convenient package. When a mechanic is changed it affects the whole game not just a specific part of it. But it doesn't have to- see my suggestion. OK, yes, you caught me exaggerating.. a lot. My point was that a relatively simple mission is taking 2x longer than it used to or more (I don't time my missions- it just seemed like a long time). Obviously, everyone in here is PvP, so you probably have no clue what I'm talking about. Were the missions too easy before? Perhaps, I'll grant you that. You shouldn't be able to AFK missions. There should be a challenge. But a cruise missile should be more effective against a cruiser than a heavy missile, that's all I'm saying. It's silly that I have to downgrade my Raven from cruises to heavy missiles to do more damage against cruisers. That's a little overboard on the nerfing. Just my $0.02. Commence with your pointless flaming and ignoring of the main point of the discussion.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.19 15:58:00 - [41] Originally by: Al Drevika But a cruise missile should be more effective against a cruiser than a heavy missile, that's all I'm saying. It's silly that I have to downgrade my Raven from cruises to heavy missiles to do more damage against cruisers. Then what would be the point of Heavy Missiles? To shoot frigates...? But then what would be the point of Light Missiles?
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.19 16:39:00 - [42] Edited by: Lili Lu on 19/11/2008 16:40:56 Welp. Not shedding a tear for you Drake guys. It's about time the sig radius penalty on LSEs mattered. The brick penalty on armor plates has always mattered, and always been an unwelcome drawback in pvp. In pve you go with resists and armor reppers, and rarely think about tanking entire rooms. Gank over tank. Suggestions- 1) Try an active tank and learn about cap management. Everyone else has to do it. Your resist bonuses are still there, should mean you will be able to pulse the shield repper. I do it in Minmatar ships, and I'd actually rather have the resist than the repper bonus. 2) Fit a painter. Been doing it for a while in missions on my Minmatar ships, even those with a shield tank. 3) Accept that a level 4 is really BS, Command, or HAC realm. No other race can routinely do level 4s in a BC (at least not without pimped mods, and at that point what's the point). Noone came away happy from this latest alteration to so many ships. My Amarr battleships are now slower and more sluggish than almost all other battleships. Lasers still are great against sansha and blood, but ass against guristas and angels. And my Khanid ships suffered very much with the range reduction on HAMs and Rockets. My Minmatar Phoon, Claymore, and Cyclone (for non level 4s) ships suffered from the missile changes also. But as I said I've always fit a painter, and now it is mandatory for missile use, and quite helpful for guns, whether armor or shield tanking. The Domi I would say has now supplanted the Raven and Drake as the most versatile and able level 4 mission runner. However, it got more sluggish and slow. And, it now has to recall and launch repeatedly appropriate sized drones for each size target. So, even it got a downside from the changes. The Drake is still a fine ship. A passive or active tank Drake can still run level 3s well. It's just that you all have to accept some limitations now, and move off the level 4 cookie-cutter passive shield hp tank sit in one place tank the room and f1-f7 mentality. Lastly, I really believe everyone in this game should train more than one race. Every toon I have has done so. The game constantly changes and your beloved ship at any one time can be directly or indirectly nerfed at any time. It may be cliche, but it's true, adapt.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.19 17:10:00 - [43] Actually this is a very valid question: Are missions against missle spammers (guristas and angels mainly) a LOT easyier to tank in a BC/HAC(S)/Command? If this is so (which I expect and which does not make the Drake better just the ship class) then there is an unbalance there,no? Not a very interestingtopic though...
Al Drevika	Posted - 2008.11.19 17:54:00 - [44] Then what would be the point of Heavy Missiles? To shoot frigates...? But then what would be the point of Light Missiles? Um... to compensate for the fact that there's one of me an 30 of them? Perhaps?
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.19 18:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Lili Lu Edited by: Lili Lu on 19/11/2008 16:40:56 Welp. Not shedding a tear for you Drake guys. It's about time the sig radius penalty on LSEs mattered. It matters? Strange, I didn't recieve the memo.

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