EVE Search - Quick Question (target painters?)

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Quick Question (target painters?)

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Techno Sword	Posted - 2008.11.15 20:17:00 - [1] Edited by: Techno Sword on 15/11/2008 20:18:47 I've recently seen people mention target painters, what are they exactly? (Yes I'm a noob, but I'm trying to learn as much as possible!)
DuffmanPeter Perpetua Umbra The Last Brigade	Posted - 2008.11.15 20:23:00 - [2] Edited by: DuffmanPeter on 15/11/2008 20:23:27 They increase the sig radius of another ship making them easier to hit, and lock. Think the item description does it well enough. I think that webs do a better job of making enemies easier to hit while slowing the enemy down so i would use those if you are pvpin. Target painters have longer range though which is a nice benefit. Definitely more useful for missions. Imply or Implode? There are many Duffman, don't tell the children... It's disillusioning!
Chicken Wing	Posted - 2008.11.15 20:29:00 - [3] AFAIK target painters are more useful on the long range bombardment-type ships, I.E. missile boats like the Raven...especially for the bigger ships, so that their larger shots can negate the new "sig tanking" phenomeon. 'Just my theoretical opinion, never used them myself.
Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2008.11.15 22:43:00 - [4] Originally by: DuffmanPeter Edited by: DuffmanPeter on 15/11/2008 20:23:27 They increase the sig radius of another ship making them easier to hit, and lock. But can you target paint something you haven't already locked? Not having tried using target painters yes, I'm assuming the answer is no, so that this function of target painters is only useful for your fleet mates. -- Salpad
NoNah	Posted - 2008.11.15 22:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Salpad Originally by: DuffmanPeter Edited by: DuffmanPeter on 15/11/2008 20:23:27 They increase the sig radius of another ship making them easier to hit, and lock. But can you target paint something you haven't already locked? Not having tried using target painters yes, I'm assuming the answer is no, so that this function of target painters is only useful for your fleet mates. And you are correct.
Thercon Jair Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:23:00 - [6] The long range thing isn't actually exact. Inside their optimal range (base is 30km) they always increase the sig radius of the target by the stated percentage. In their falloff range (base 60km) they start to miss, i.e., the effect of signature increase might not happen. So, at optimal + falloff you will have a chance of 50% to paint the target, and close to 0% at optimal + 2x falloff. With maximum skills you should get to 45km optimal and 90km falloff. As explained by others already, the people also locking that target will be able to lock it quicker after you have painted it. Then, turrets will hit them better for two reasons: turret signature resolution and the target's signature radius will move closer together, at least, that's when you're using oversized weapons. (a medium turret with 125m resolution shooting at a 40m signature radius frigate -> this means, when you're in optimal range and both ships don't move, you're only going to hit with 32% of your shots ((10040)/125). When you now hit it with a 30% signature increasing Target Painter the frigate's signature will now be 52m, which means 41.6% of your rounds are going to hit. And since the signature radius is also taken into account for the tracking calculation with moving targets your tracking is now increased by around 30%. There are also Electronics skills which increase the effectiveness of the target painter by 5% per level, and certain ships that get a bonus to target painters (Vigil, Bellicose, the minmatar recons, marauders). Now, thinking of this, I should gang my Huginn up with a torp raven and have him rejoice ;) Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!*
DuffmanPeter Perpetua Umbra The Last Brigade	Posted - 2008.11.16 15:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Salpad Originally by: DuffmanPeter Edited by: DuffmanPeter on 15/11/2008 20:23:27 They increase the sig radius of another ship making them easier to hit, and lock. But can you target paint something you haven't already locked? Not having tried using target painters yes, I'm assuming the answer is no, so that this function of target painters is only useful for your fleet mates. It makes that ship you are using it on easier to hit. Obviously you cant target something you are already locked onto but it helps if you are in a gang. Otherwise painters are basically useless. I would rather use a web. Imply or Implode? There are many Duffman, don't tell the children... It's disillusioning!
anomalousresult	Posted - 2008.11.16 15:36:00 - [8] Originally by: DuffmanPeter Otherwise painters are basically useless. I would rather use a web. Or if say you can't stand to cross-train away from missiles you can use TPs to increase the damage done.
Pac SubCom A.W.M	Posted - 2008.11.16 15:42:00 - [9] Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/11/2008 15:43:20 Originally by: DuffmanPeter Otherwise painters are basically useless. Right, other than massively increasing the damage potential of every ship in game, they are basically useless.
DuffmanPeter Perpetua Umbra The Last Brigade	Posted - 2008.11.16 15:49:00 - [10] Edited by: DuffmanPeter on 16/11/2008 15:49:15 Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/11/2008 15:43:20 Originally by: DuffmanPeter Otherwise painters are basically useless. Right, other than massively increasing the damage potential of every ship in game, they are basically useless. I agree target painter helps damage alot but if you are in close range a web does a much better job while slowing down the opponent's ship. In pve they have their use or in pvp with a long range ship or a gang ship. But if i had to chose between them i would rather use a web on my torp raven. Imply or Implode? There are many Duffman, don't tell the children... It's disillusioning!
Pac SubCom A.W.M	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/11/2008 16:26:43 Originally by: DuffmanPeter I agree target painter helps damage alot but There shouldn't be a "but", there should be a "period".
Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:28:00 - [12] Originally by: Thercon Jair The long range thing isn't actually exact. Inside their optimal range (base is 30km) they always increase the sig radius of the target by the stated percentage. In their falloff range (base 60km) they start to miss, i.e., the effect of signature increase might not happen. So, at optimal + falloff you will have a chance of 50% to paint the target, and close to 0% at optimal + 2x falloff. With maximum skills you should get to 45km optimal and 90km falloff. Which skillz affect Target Painters? IIRC the only skill I could find was Target Painting itself, which only affects the capacitor usage. If there are other skillz that directly affect Target Painter range or bonus, I'd appreciate hearing about them.
Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:34:00 - [13] Originally by: DuffmanPeter I agree target painter helps damage alot but if you are in close range a web does a much better job while slowing down the opponent's ship. In pve they have their use or in pvp with a long range ship or a gang ship. But if i had to chose between them i would rather use a web. How useful is a Webifier if you're a missile user?
Kilrex	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:43:00 - [14] I think target painters are great for use with ranged setups. Take for example frigate sized weapons, they all have a resolution of 40m. AF, Inties and some T1 frigs have sig radius of below 40. Adding 30ish% to their radius makes their sig radius exceed your weapon resolution, allowing better hits and slight improvement on tracking. Of course if they have MWD they will be past 40m already and if using I-Stabs or Shield Extenders they may be past 40m.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Salpad Originally by: Thercon Jair The long range thing isn't actually exact. Inside their optimal range (base is 30km) they always increase the sig radius of the target by the stated percentage. In their falloff range (base 60km) they start to miss, i.e., the effect of signature increase might not happen. So, at optimal + falloff you will have a chance of 50% to paint the target, and close to 0% at optimal + 2x falloff. With maximum skills you should get to 45km optimal and 90km falloff. Which skillz affect Target Painters? IIRC the only skill I could find was Target Painting itself, which only affects the capacitor usage. If there are other skillz that directly affect Target Painter range or bonus, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Signature Focusing. Needs l4 target painting. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Imaos Signature Focusing. Needs l4 target painting. But there's no skill to increase range? -- Salpad
Orakkus	Posted - 2008.11.16 17:14:00 - [17] "Long Distance Jamming" increases optimal range, while "Frequency Modulation" increases Falloff.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2008.11.16 17:27:00 - [18] Quote: As explained by others already, the people also locking that target will be able to lock it quicker after you have painted it. Then, turrets will hit them better for two reasons: turret signature resolution and the target's signature radius will move closer together, at least, that's when you're using oversized weapons. (a medium turret with 125m resolution shooting at a 40m signature radius frigate -> this means, when you're in optimal range and both ships don't move, you're only going to hit with 32% of your shots ((100*40)/125). When you now hit it with a 30% signature increasing Target Painter the frigate's signature will now be 52m, which means 41.6% of your rounds are going to hit. And since the signature radius is also taken into account for the tracking calculation with moving targets your tracking is now increased by around 30%. This isn't accurate. you are mixing up Missiles and Turrets. The turret formula uses the ratio of your guns Sig Resolution / your target's Signature Radius, and this ratio is a modifier to your gun's tracking piece of the chance to hit formula. If neither you or your opponent is moving (Transversal Velocity = 0), then your signature res vs target's signature rad doesn't matter at all, if you are within optimal you will hit 100% of the time.
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.16 18:12:00 - [19] Intuitively you'd expect EW systems to get a reduced effect when in falloff range, seems odd that they went with a miss chance instead.
Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2008.11.16 18:35:00 - [20] Edited by: Salpad on 16/11/2008 18:35:48 Originally by: Orakkus "Long Distance Jamming" increases optimal range, while "Frequency Modulation" increases Falloff. I had no idea those skillz affected Target Painters. I've trained both of them to level 2 or so, in order to improve my ECM slightly... edit: The info for the two skillz states outright that they do affect Target Painters. That's a real "duh" moment for me!
DuffmanPeter Perpetua Umbra The Last Brigade	Posted - 2008.11.16 22:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/11/2008 16:26:43 Originally by: DuffmanPeter I agree target painter helps damage alot but There shouldn't be a "but", there should be a "period". I am not going to argue with someone who doesnt make a valid point to argue against. If you think of anything intelligent to add let me know but otherwise on a close range ship I would rather use a web. Imply or Implode? There are many Duffman, don't tell the children... It's disillusioning!
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:18:00 - [22] The problem with using a web instead of a target painter along with turrets, is that in order for the web to allow you to effectively increase your chance to hit, you must lower your own speed/transfersal so that you can hit effectively. This allows you to be hit as much as it allows you to hit. Obviously there is a need to limit how your opponent can manuver, that is the primary roll of a web. It is not to increase the damage output of your turrets, because to increase your ablity to hit via a webber, you also increase how much you get hit. A target painter is very effective at increasing damage output, particularly in situations where you are in the middle of your tracking range. As a baseline, I would suggest looking at the situation of two ships of the same size with the same tracking each orbitting the other with a speed equal to the tracking of their turrets. It does not matter who has who webbed as transversal is the same for each. With angular velocity and signature radius matching the turrets attributes, each ship has a 50% chance to hit the other. A target painter (30% increase in signature radius) would increase the chance to hit to 66%. This would increase effective DPS by 44%. That is why target painters have a right to names like PWNAGE.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:30:00 - [23] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/11/2008 00:32:03 Originally by: Ki Tarra The problem with using a web instead of a target painter along with turrets, is that in order for the web to allow you to effectively increase your chance to hit, you must lower your own speed/transfersal so that you can hit effectively. This allows you to be hit as much as it allows you to hit. Obviously there is a need to limit how your opponent can manuver, that is the primary roll of a web. It is not to increase the damage output of your turrets, because to increase your ablity to hit via a webber, you also increase how much you get hit. This is badly worded and also completely misleading. First off, it is obviously there to increase damage output of your turrets, at expense of being hit more by same-sized turrets (generally speaking; it also enables you to play out-tracking games with someone who is faster, but has worse tracking guns). Second, it is there to increase damage output in a way painters will never be able to: range control. Third, many ships rely on superior DPS / EHP to win - in this case, the increase in how much you get hit is entirely unimportant and in fact nonexistant if you were flying on a better tracking, faster, more maneuverable opponent. Fourth, webs are needed to tackle. Furthermore, situations where you are in the middle of your tracking range are situations where your DPS is suboptimal to begin ith, and you're doing something wrong. You want to, for all normal combat situations, maximise the DPS you're dealing. If you find yourself trying to outrun your tracking to avoid death and bring a target painter to boost your DPS, then what you really need is a Falcon. So you can park yourself at optimal, and deal 100% instead of 50% - or, in fact, a 100% hit chance boost (and therefore 100% DPS boost), rather then the 34% boost (in your example) from a TP. The way you describe it, it's like you're trying to say 'it's a way to boost your tracking if you're doing it wrong'. Painters have uses, mostly related to hitting smaller/faster ships or firing missiles. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:52:00 - [24] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 17/11/2008 00:52:57 Originally by: Cpt Branko The way you describe it, it's like you're trying to say 'it's a way to boost your tracking if you're doing it wrong'. Painters have uses, mostly related to hitting smaller/faster ships or firing missiles. You have your examples mixed up. Webs are best at allowing you to hit smaller ships. As your only hope of hitting a smaller target is to kill transversal completely. A target painter is not going to come anywhere near to compensating for the size difference between classes, and by the time you can hit them transversal must be reduced to the point were the smaller class weapons aren't going to miss any significant number of shots. Target Painters are for winning the tracking game against compariable (or larger) sized targets. As I showed in my example, it can provide a huge boost to your effective DPS, while allowing you to keep transversal up so that they can't hit back effectively. It is the common misconseption that Target Painters are for hitting smaller targets that gives them the reputation for being ineffective. They are not ment for hitting smaller targets, and don't do a good job of that. Use them for their intended purpose of hitting comparibly sized targets and you will find that they work quite well, especially in gang situations where several people benefit from its effects.

Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.