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CCP, we NEED a ransoming mechanic!

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GeneralNukeEm Free Collective Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.11.17 13:23:00 - [91] Edited by: GeneralNukeEm on 17/11/2008 13:23:13 Quote: Add ransom button to convo window. Before ship is poped, start convo with loosing side. If convo is accepted, press ransom button and add wanted ISK amount. If loosing player pays, he looses all locks on his ships and his ship autowarps into random direction. To avoid cheats, ransoming wouldn't work from convo with member in same corp, gang, fleet or aliance. CCP could also add "Ransom Honor" counter in players BIO: If pirate press Ransom button, timer is activated. If ransom is paid, loosing side gets "Aggression free" time from Pirate player, like 30 minutes or so. If same Pirate pops same player within that time he gets -1 "Ransom honor" point, if not he gets +1. By looking in Pirate players bio player could see if Ransom Honor number is positive or negative and decide to pay ransom or not. Should probably also add no ransoms from people with friendly standings. Make it similar to the standings system. "Standings gain" would be a fixed value given by the ransomed player docking, entering a POS forcefield, or logging off without player aggression (the 15 minute timer one). "Standings loss" would be a variable value resulting from the destruction of the ransomed player's ship. It would be determined by a formula taking into account whether the ship was destroyed by the player/corp/alliance/gang (PCAG) of whoever initiated the ransom (if the ransomee's ship was not destroyed by the same PCAG, lower standings hit), how long after the ransom was initiated (longer time after ransom before ship destruction, lower standings hit), how far away from the system the ransom took place in (longer distance, lower standings hit), and maybe other factors I'm not thinking of at 5am. There should be a separate counter of total ransoms initiated, ransoms honored, ransoms dishonored due to direct destruction by the PCAG, and ransoms dishonored due to other people destroying the ransomee's ship. That way people could at least make an educated guess as to whether ransoms were being dishonored due to angry people wanting to spite the pirates or if the pirate had an alt that was popping people left and right. This mechanic should be disabled for any instance involving trial accounts. Trials won't be able to formally ransom or be ransomed. Of course, this is still open to abuse by corporations with members with multiple accounts in alt corps or whatever, but really that's no more or less game breaking than 0.0 alliances using alt corps/characters to run logistics.
Koda Infestation. R.U.R.	Posted - 2008.11.17 13:29:00 - [92] I have never really had a problem getting ransoms out of people. But i am very fair with how much i ask for. Sometimes they take it, sometimes they don't. But i don't think there should be a game mechanic for this. Its much more fun and intresting using your own rep and corps rep to get money out of people.
Beardponderer You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.11.17 13:59:00 - [93] Lies! We need a thrusting mechanic! /thrust!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:40:00 - [94] Originally by: Beardponderer We need a thrusting mechanic! Put both your arms forwards, with your palms facing down, while slowly retracting your posterior. Also bend your knees slightly. This gives a more offensive outlook on your stance and also lowers your center of gravity for added balance. Make fists with your hands, while rotating your right hand clockwise and your left hand counter-clockwise. This indicated grabbing hold of a imaginary object. While retracting fists back towards your sides, move your posterior anterior. This indicates a flamboyant portrayal of your genitalia hitting the imaginary object you were holding. Bring your fists anterior, your posterior posterior and repeat the above motion again for added affect. Repeat until satisfactionary level of affect has been reached. Relax and assume normal position. Couldn't help myself
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:48:00 - [95] samething will happen as the gtc.. u used to need an good reputation to sell them. Until the secure method came. if the same thing happens for randsome.. it wont be fun anymore.
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:56:00 - [96] Just give the option to ransom, like a gang invite, the victim might even block it as an option. Pirates then can make a name of fame or infame for them, EVE is still a game with alot of social aspects and too much automation would kill the spirit of it.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:09:00 - [97] A mechanic that allows people to ask for ransoms.. well, that could work, but is it suitable in EVE? As been said a gazillion times, this is a cold hard place, no fluff and flowers, mmkay? So, when you ransom a player, you either a) take isk from him and then honour the deal, or b) steal from him and blow him up. In both situations he loses. Insurance doesn't matter in this case, when you take a ship for a spin you put it at risk. Another case is that all MMO's (not only EVE, basic economics) need isksinks. If players just keep hogging onto money, eventually it loses it's value and the economy collapses. Blowing up ships is an isk sink, sending isk around between players isn't. Personally if I'd get ransomed (havn't happened yet, but pretty sure this is what I'd do) - I'd decline it and let him blow up my ship. No matter how generous his offer was. No matter how valueable my ship was. No matter if I trusted him or not. How come? Because I don't believe in paying pirates ransoms. It's the same as paying money to kidnappers, terrorists, etc. Still, I have ransomed others, and I will keep to do it. I make a difference between stealing and have things stolen from me. For the same reason I never would self-destruct a cap/supercap to deny the hostiles the loot. They killed me, they deserve the stuff that drops. And I will steal/ransom people that are stupid enough to let me. But I won't pay another thief because of my own stupid mistakes. And ultimately, I want to see things blow up, which is both good for the economy, looks flashy on killboards, and I'd rather see pirates make isk from loot than from ransoms. It fits better in the EVE world, it works better from an economy point of view, plus in my eyes it's sexier. (tl;dr-version: I wouldn't mind if CCP puts in a ransom-mechanic option, it just has to be optional, and honestly I believe it's against the spirit of EVE to integrate that as an 'official' mechanic, it should be player-driven).
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:09:00 - [98] Maybe all that's needed is an official ransom button? If players see it in the game as 'official' then maybe they'd expect it and would be more acclimated to the concept, instead of 'OMG NO RANSOM!'. I think one of the largest problems is that players either don't expect it, or have been in the situation only a few times and are panicked and just say 'no' as a kneejerk reaction. If there was a ransom option: basically a duplicate of 'give ISK' on the player interaction menu, and it was explained in the new player tutorial, then maybe it would be a more socially accepted game mechanic, and regardless of whether or not it could be enforced for players to honor ransoms or not, it would be ingrained in the new player's mind that it's an acceptable and common option for pirates to request a ransom. So basically, nothing really changes, except a little social engineering. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:15:00 - [99] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Maybe all that's needed is an official ransom button? If players see it in the game as 'official' I think this is the key. CCP is fine with players making their own destiny and shaping EVE the way they want - i.e. like using ransoms. But at the same time they don't want to make ransoms official, and that's pretty much what I tried to point out in my previous post (I saw I posted it same time you did basicly, and it was fairly long, so I don't expect you to have read it either). I'm not saying it shouldn't be official. I say I believe it shouldn't, and I would reccon that CCP could share my view on it. Or they simply got other priorities. Either way, I think this is a bit greyzone, it's a matter of opinions and nothing is really right/wrong on this topic.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:18:00 - [100] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/11/2008 16:18:33 Originally by: Misanth A mechanic that allows people to ask for ransoms.. well, that could work, but is it suitable in EVE? As been said a gazillion times, this is a cold hard place, no fluff and flowers, mmkay? So, when you ransom a player, you either a) take isk from him and then honour the deal, or b) steal from him and blow him up. In both situations he loses. Insurance doesn't matter in this case, when you take a ship for a spin you put it at risk. Another case is that all MMO's (not only EVE, basic economics) need isksinks. If players just keep hogging onto money, eventually it loses it's value and the economy collapses. Blowing up ships is an isk sink, sending isk around between players isn't. Ships blowing up is a isk faucet, not sink. Ship A is being ransomed. Pilot A pays 100M to pilot B. Ship is alive, net ISK in economy : same. Ship A is being ransomed. Pilot A refuses to pay anything to pilot B. -1 ship in economy, +50 million ISK in economy from insurance. So you have a money devaluing effect: (a) more cash in system (b) less material to back this cash up in system That said, ships blowing up is naturally neccesary to make the economy run (read: ships get produced and sold)... but it is not a ISK sink.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:31:00 - [101] Edited by: Misanth on 17/11/2008 16:33:40 Originally by: Cpt Branko Ships blowing up is a isk faucet, not sink. Ship A is being ransomed. Pilot A pays 100M to pilot B. Ship is alive, net ISK in economy : same. Ship A is being ransomed. Pilot A refuses to pay anything to pilot B. -1 ship in economy, +50 million ISK in economy from insurance. So you have a money devaluing effect: (a) more cash in system (b) less material to back this cash up in system That said, ships blowing up is naturally neccesary to make the economy run (read: ships get produced and sold)... but it is not a ISK sink. Yes. My post was just too long already to explain economics in detail. FYI my degree is in economics, I'm quite aware of the basic structure of those systems. Hence my interest in how different games keep them rolling too, since a broken game economy can in reality also break the game completely. All MMO's need an currency "sink", and that's the relative term to describe all actions that means "time and assets". The isk-sink, gold-sink etc term is often mentioned when talking about the economy as a whole. If someone mine and build stuff for X hours, you buy it for Y money, and it's blown up.. that time and assets lost has a virtual value. Easiest described by the general currency - in EVE - isk. Edit; Never heard the word "faucet". I'm not native english speaking, could be that we use the 'sink'-word in a matter it's not in internal terms. But either way, I've played ALOT of MMO's and the general discussion when talking about dumping assets to increase the value of currency.. is spoken about as a "sink".
pausert Caldari AFK	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:34:00 - [102] Have to love stupid posts by pirates. Last time one of our newer players paid ransom he lost his ship, ransom isk and got podded. While the pirates were doing this they spent their time calling the poor guy "NOOB" "CAREBEAR" etc. Couple of us had to talk to him, explaing that there is no "HONOR SYSTEM" in EVE and that paying ransom is just a waste of time.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:44:00 - [103] And pirates still try to spread the myth. I've had 2 "ransomed" ships blown up back when I was a newbie and my personal view is that the only ships you bring to lowsec are the ones you intend to loose :)
Nir Ice	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:24:00 - [104] Simple solution, add a menu item called Ransom, you click on a player (from the overview) select it, a box pops with the default ship value (based on insurance) a % slider and a freeform isk value. A user defined timer would help also. This makes a box pop up on the targets ship that has a button to tell how often its honored and who paid it. (100% ransom rate from corp members = pointless) The point is to get more people into low sec, right now the cost of doing bussness in low sec is your ship, with a good system, it becomes the cost of paying off the pirats. in short, pirats get a system, carebares get basic contract rights.
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:42:00 - [105] Edited by: Xen Gin on 17/11/2008 17:42:51 Originally by: Hyveres And pirates still try to spread the myth. I've had 2 "ransomed" ships blown up back when I was a newbie and my personal view is that the only ships you bring to lowsec are the ones you intend to loose :) I agree, the saying should be: "Don't fly what you can't afford to replace, or want to complain about." Everyone should fly what they want, where they want, just as long as they understand they shouldn't complain when they lose it.
Saladin Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:50:00 - [106] The problem is trust, no one trusts a pirate to keep his word. The key here is to start with low ransom demands, the amount requested has to be low so that the victim feels he has nothing to lose by obliging. Over time you're reputation as a pirate and a man of your word grows, and then you gradually increase prices.
Ecatherina W Gallente Dromedary Goat Albatross and Fish Big Bang Quantum	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:59:00 - [107] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Anyway, all this debate about ransoms and all this is just lame anyway. Like I said, I'm sorry I brought it up. I find that pirates usually pay ransoms as they understand the value of doing so, and carebears don't do it, no matter how reasonable it is, because they see it as promoting piracy. They'll just cut off their nose to spite their face so to speak. I guess what I'm really asking for is more smart players in Eve that have a reasonable response to being ransomed. LOL. Obviously that's never going to happen. I've never accepted ransom. Only been in a situation where I was attempted ransomed once. It was, of all places, in 0.0 where a group of mercs/pirates had moved in and assumed that the locals would be ready to be ransomed. Well, guess what? We don't care. If you catch me, then I expect you to pod me if you can. If you do not, you are a whimp and not worthy of my time, let alone my ISK. Oh... and I never fly what I cannot afford to replace, of course. Carebear? Not really. Just a 0.0 pilot who does not care about feeding pirates. Just like I don't give in to blackmail in any other aspect of life, outside or inside Eve. Kath
Evarum Kador Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:21:00 - [108] LMAO Pirates want to be trusted now? How ruthlessly absurd. Just by virtue of being a pirate, you've already removed yourself from being trustworthy. If you want to be a criminal, then why are you so surprised when law abiding citizens treat you like one? BTW, a lot of corps have a no ransom policy, prohibiting their pilots from paying ransoms... "officialy". Positive reinforcement of a pirate's actions will only result in validating the behavior as acceptable. Now, without it, you're trying to get the developers to reinforce your behavior. I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.
Eltanan	Posted - 2008.11.17 23:45:00 - [109] All this talk of reputation and such is all very well and good, but there's also the simple fact that when you're getting pinned by a pirate, you only have seconds to say yes or no (assuming they even ask) before they open fire. Not really enough time to go surfing the forums or whatnot and see if someone is 'trustworthy'. Reputation is meaningless.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:15:00 - [110] I think the whole that idea that low sec is scary is ridiculous =/ Especially with web nerf its going to be easy enough to burn back to any gate sometimes even with an AB (vaga or frig class i suppose, but still at least its now an option) All it takes is a little practice. Secondly: A mechanic is far too much to impose here imo. It's obviously asking too much of CCP and mostly unnecessary. The best idea so far I've heard is some sort of ingame credentials. Something along the lines of I click the ransom person button, enter amount, a window pops up for them for accept or decline. If they decline, PEWPEW! if they accept I let them go. 5 minutes later if they find that they are still in one piece and appreciate the honor of a ransom they give me a "gold star" for being such a nice guy Or hell even the window could be thrown out and just have people give you +'s or -'s under our new decorations tab for ransoms and include a linked name to the person who gave you the rating to see if its just alts saying you're trustworthy. Sounds easy enough and effective to me.
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:04:00 - [111] Originally by: Mr Ignitious Secondly: A mechanic is far too much to impose here imo. It's obviously asking too much of CCP and mostly unnecessary. I dont think asking ccp to throw some work to improve lowsec is asking for too much. Many new players that want to try out pvp do this in lowsec, and whos to blame them as that is the obvious thing todo. But with the current lowsec 0.0 makes for a much better pvp starting ground, next to fw whcih btw would benefit from lowsec improvements, too. Lowsec as it is at the moment is a wasted opportunity winning over players for eve. For ccp investing time in lowsec is investing in new players. - Boosters and PirateProfessions
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:11:00 - [112] Some people want to fly battlecruisers in low sec, they will be caught and destroyed in gatecamps. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Maybe all that's needed is an official ransom button? If players see it in the game as 'official' then maybe they'd expect it and would be more acclimated to the concept, instead of 'OMG NO RANSOM!'. So an extra give isk button because people arent stupid enough to pay ransom and get their ship blown up? There are barely pirates that ransom, most just shoot on everything that moves. And from those who do ransom most will blow you up anyway, paying ransom is just plain stupid unless you know the pirate. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:16:00 - [113] seriously, grow a frigging backbone allready, OK? theres a saying thats been bandied around since 2003, " dont fly what you cant afford to loose" pretty simple, yet apperantly you cannot understand that basic statement, must be too much WoW I guess and really, why should you trust any pirate? thats right you shouldnt. kill or be killed. you guys, who pay ransoms , only perpetuate the lowsec violence, why make it it a viable way to make money?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:33:00 - [114] I guess I really have been doing it wrong lol. I've just been operating on the assumption that people would think that pirates would honor ransoms and therefore find value in paying a ransom. But it seems to me that almost everyone expects to be blown up after paying a ransom, and think of pirates as 'terrorists' regardless of how they conduct themselves. Maybe I should just go 'all the way' and be as evil as possible and kill anyone and everyone that I ransom? I'm coming up on three years of game time with this character, and I've never dishonored a ransom that entire time, but I guess I'm in the microscopic minority of players who do so.
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:59:00 - [115] Okay it took 4 pages, but you finally got it. People expect to be blown up anyway, probably because they probably will be blown up anyway.
Incendi Gracious Bodily Harm	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:11:00 - [116] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Originally by: Incendi If only CCP had thought of this before... if there was some sort of bounty system that could be used as an indication as to whether a player is trustworthy... wait a minute... If you wonna be an ass atleast do your research otherwise youll look as stupid as.. well as you do right now If sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, then people that don't even understand sarcasm must be right on the bottom rung. Good luck with working your way up.
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:25:00 - [117] bounty system is pointless and only idiots put a significant bounty on someone they dont like. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
IxenBlaze Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:26:00 - [118] Even pirates have a reputation in the pirate society and with victims. Piracy is an intended part of the game, and it keeps the game fresh with action and uncertainty. I think it would be better for there to be a reputation system that victims can check when they are being ransomed to get a better idea of who they are dealing with. Im not a pirate myself and i dont get much fleet action, but i gotta say without piracy this game would be rather boring.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:47:00 - [119] Edited by: Endless Subversion on 18/11/2008 19:47:23 The reputation argument is bad. The vast majority of casual gamers and solo mission runners are going to have no idea of who you or your corp are. They probably aren't going to read the forums and certainly aren't going to be well versed in the chest pounding that is corp self-promotion. They will have no idea which corps and players can be trusted or not. Additional challenges arise when you try to create a system for it: 1) It's incredibly time sensitive. Contracts, forum histories, ransom boards all take time.. 2) Any 'feedback' system encourages abuse. What's going to happen after you successfully ransom some guy? He's going to be ****ed, and as soon as he gets his ransomed ship safe he's going to give you bad feedback out of spite. 3)Any system that automatically breaks locks or the like is going to be abused.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:56:00 - [120] Originally by: Endless Subversion Edited by: Endless Subversion on 18/11/2008 19:47:23 The reputation argument is bad. The vast majority of casual gamers and solo mission runners are going to have no idea of who you or your corp are. They probably aren't going to read the forums and certainly aren't going to be well versed in the chest pounding that is corp self-promotion. They will have no idea which corps and players can be trusted or not. Additional challenges arise when you try to create a system for it: 1) It's incredibly time sensitive. Contracts, forum histories, ransom boards all take time.. 2) Any 'feedback' system encourages abuse. What's going to happen after you successfully ransom some guy? He's going to be ****ed, and as soon as he gets his ransomed ship safe he's going to give you bad feedback out of spite. 3)Any system that automatically breaks locks or the like is going to be abused. Aww Endless, just couldn't resist to say hi :)

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