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Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:15:00 - [1] Dear readers, For quite some time now ive been a low sec pvper, or a pirate in some of your opinions. Although pvp against "innocent" targets in low sec is for some reason considerd low by many its the only thing I, and my corp enjoy doing. 0.0 dont and has not appealed to me, high sec got very boring very quickly and high sec pvp despite having its high points tended to be a whole lot of waiting for nothing to happen. But after so long of watching targets in low sec get away when they should have died i thought, what the hell, and decided to write this post, probaly not the first post you have read on the subject and I doubt it shall be the last either. One example that jumps to mind is earlier today a drake jumped in to me and two corp members. That is a battlecruiser sized ship that jumped in to three highly skilled, well fit battleships and it was quickly warp disrupted and webbed. Despite the fact that it was tackled in every way ccp has made it possible to tackle, the drake was still able to mwd back to the gate and jump out. The day that a battlecruiser can escape 3 battleships despite being webbed is the day I begin to think how can it be said eve is a hostile environment game. So much time wasted waiting for targets that have so many options of escaping, there is warp core stabs, after all when your in a small pvp group like I am then a heavy dictor isnt always avaible, hours of our time camping mite be wasted just because the guy that jumped in fit a wcs in his spare low slot. In my opinion the nerf to speed was no where near as bad as the nerf to webs, when some one jumps through a gate they are just 12-18km away from it. Fitting a mwd on to a battlecruiser or battleship would mean you could be back to the gate in as little as 12 secounds, even if you were webbed as soon as you uncloaked which isnt possible, now the new webs would just increase that time to 30 secounds. Ever tried killing a battleship in 30 secounds solo or with a small gang?? Sorry im kind of rambaling now, but seeing as my security status prevents me from earning isk via mission running or minning and the limitations of my current situation mean 0.0 is not a viable option then the only way me and my corp can make isk is though the killing off targets. Other methods of escaping that i think are silly include -Logging of, cloaking and warping, mwd speed running away from or back to the gate. It just ruins the game for people in a situation where killing people in low sec is all we can do and the only way we can earn isk. Thanks for reading, dont be to harsh in your responsies
SUAO Hazardous Flame	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:16:00 - [2] Edited by: SUAO on 20/11/2008 23:17:54 1st? edit 1. Fit a Scram 2. No MWD 3. ??? 4. Profit? Also, is there a point to this? Or did you just read my sig?
Apoctasy The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:17:00 - [3] in before tl:dr Get an alt to do your hauling/missioning/isk making
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:20:00 - [4] Maybe I'm crazy but I thought with the last patch Scrambles disengaged MWD.
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:20:00 - [5] Some people dont enjoy the high sec methods of earning isk, if these same people dont enjoy 0.0 either then low sec is one of the only other choices for them. As tempting as the easy sercure income of high sec life is, it is certainly no fun but what im trying to say seeing 1/2 the targets we catch some how get away just simply shouldnt happen.
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:24:00 - [6] Mic your right there, but using a arazu/lach under sentry gun fire is nearly impossible especialy in the smaller gangs I fly with. As for using normal scrams if your sitting next to the gate by the time they come with in 9km of you its to late they are going to get back to it, mwd online or not.
Banana Torres Look Ma I did a Test	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Letelio Denmun but seeing as my security status prevents me from earning isk via mission running What!? They have removed missions from low sec? When did that happen?
Rivur'Tam Fatality.	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:49:00 - [8] 3 of you in gang = 2 with disrupters 1 with scram Also mwd+bump With the mass changes in qr, if your bs doing 759ms hits another bs it knocks it a HUGE distance Tonight my small gang stopped a thorax from getting back to the gate this way. Don't wine adapt and as for these new huge gates just don't camp them.
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:51:00 - [9] Yes, I do believe the bump is the answer. Sad it has to come to that, but it's fairly effective.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:55:00 - [10] and how many of your targets do you think should be allowed to get away? running is a good survival response in lots of situations in nature cause it works

gallentescout Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.11.21 00:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Mic your right there, but using a arazu/lach under sentry gun fire is nearly impossible especialy in the smaller gangs I fly with. As for using normal scrams if your sitting next to the gate by the time they come with in 9km of you its to late they are going to get back to it, mwd online or not. Scrambler is still the way to go now. A webbed drake with no MWD isn't going to cover the distance that fast...especially if you bump into him. As for the all the other stuff, I kind of understand but really you choose your method of play. Nobody is forcing you to camp gates and lower your sec status...and quite frankly it sucks as a general "PvP" mechanic. But then I can't feel too harsh towards the gankers because: a) it's human nature to want things easy. b) EVE actually doesn't offer that many ways of finding quality PvP. (and by 'PvP' I mean actual combat between players that tests the skill and/or intelligence of the opponent)
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.11.21 00:01:00 - [12] Edited by: Haradgrim on 21/11/2008 00:04:55 The new huge gates suck, especially those that go into 0.0 Some of the best pvp I've seen has been in systems like P3, Doril, 3f-. etc, etc, and as a result of the changes it has become very difficult to camp them without a huge gang because everything just gets away (because it appears 40km away from you and you need 4+ HIDs to fully cover the gates) -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.11.21 01:44:00 - [13] Bring a HIC you hick! Delenda est achura.
Ticondrius Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.21 04:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Maybe I'm crazy but I thought with the last patch Scrambles disengaged MWD. Only warp DISRUPTORS (you know, the 20km ones?). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Good Bug Reporting Incentives MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls
Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Millennium	Posted - 2008.11.21 05:58:00 - [15] Edited by: Alex Raptos on 21/11/2008 05:58:15 Originally by: Ticondrius Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Maybe I'm crazy but I thought with the last patch Scrambles disengaged MWD. Only warp DISRUPTORS (you know, the 20km ones?). Hahaha, so wrong you are my friend. Its the 7.5km ones that Disrupt.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.21 08:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Despite the fact that it was tackled in every way ccp has made it possible to tackle, the drake was still able to mwd Quoted the wrong in your post.
Daevonar Minmatar Starfish Operating Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Some people dont enjoy the high sec methods of earning isk, if these same people dont enjoy 0.0 either then low sec is one of the only other choices for them. As tempting as the easy sercure income of high sec life is, it is certainly no fun but what im trying to say seeing 1/2 the targets we catch some how get away just simply shouldnt happen. I'm sorry but what you ar esaying is you dont feel that targets should get away? Wouldn't that be completely unfair on everyone else playing the game. I'm sorry but camping low sec gates should not be a guaranteed kill on everything that comes through. If only half are getting away I'd say your doing pretty well out of it.
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:24:00 - [18] Summarized: Everyone who jumps in the OPs gatecamp should decloak, and then just stay waiting till he is destroyed. Preferably also dont warp your pod out, otherwise it is so hard to pod kill you.
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:33:00 - [19] wendat if you had taken the time to read the post you would have seen the part about the gangs i fly in being to small to have a dic with us all the time. In reply to the warp scraming ideas you have mentioned i would like to say the following. When a mwd is offlined by a warp scram the targets ship doesnt just stop. It will take a drake a long time to go from 1200 ms to 100 and seeing as it will be at the most 9km from the gate by the time it gets scrammed then it still stands a great chance of making it back.
Ballistic CEO Looking For Fun Corp	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:35:00 - [20] The continued slow lingering death of low sec. In all honesty while it is sad on many levels its not really a surprise to see things getting harder for pirates is it? Its not like CCP have spent the last few years making things better and better for low sec people and suddenly decided to make your life hard. My advice, get that sec up and decide where abouts in hi-sec you want to operate.

Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:42:00 - [21] so, gatecamping in low-sec (not PVP by ANY stretch of the imagination) isn't as easy as you think it should be? the barrel's too big for the fish? sniff, sniff. i'm really welling for you up over here.
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:46:00 - [22] was waiting for some one to insult pirates i guess you have a bad experience in low sec recently. Not that this is the point of this post but gate camping is very hard and very risky, these days its not even worth the risk unless you sitting in a 20 man gang because otherwise there is so many ways people can evade you. Just because we dont want to sit in the massive gangs does that mean we are less entitled to killing targets.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Letelio Denmun was waiting for some one to insult pirates i guess you have a bad experience in low sec recently. Not that this is the point of this post but gate camping is very hard and very risky, these days its not even worth the risk unless you sitting in a 20 man gang because otherwise there is so many ways people can evade you. Just because we dont want to sit in the massive gangs does that mean we are less entitled to killing targets. nope, haven't had a "bad experience" in low-sec for a long time, it's just beyond me how you (or anyone else) considers it PvP. you want us to feel bad because it's become harder for you to jump people and now, sniff sniff, there's not enough profit in it for you anymore? you might be a pirate, but being a gatecamper makes you a PvPer about as much as handing out cash from behind a piece of glass makes you a banker. you wanna kill targets in low-sec, that's just dandy with me - there are enough miners and mission-runners out there for you to nab - but my sympathy for you not being able to jump people at gates is extremely limited. ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:59:00 - [24] Player verses Player comes in many shapes and forms. It is not just new players in haulers and civilian fit cruisers that we have to fight, if you think that is the case then i think you mite need to learn some more before commenting. But you seem to have the view of many thinking for some reason gate camping is not real pvp, no idea where this idea was born I guess it just shows how little you actually know.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Player verses Player comes in many shapes and forms. It is not just new players in haulers and civilian fit cruisers that we have to fight, if you think that is the case then i think you mite need to learn some more before commenting. But you seem to have the view of many thinking for some reason gate camping is not real pvp, no idea where this idea was born I guess it just shows how little you actually know. Well look at it this way: when there is a chance of being able to escape a camp, more people will take that chance.
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:07:00 - [26] hehe good point i guess, but still its a bit over done where if people fit a certain mod or use a certain tactic they are almost certainly going to escape, shouldn't the game involve risks and chances??
Hooch Flux Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Just because we dont want to sit in the massive gangs does that mean we are less entitled to killing targets. In this case it would appear it does!
Mal'ol Soddo	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Letelio Denmun hehe good point i guess, but still its a bit over done where if people fit a certain mod or use a certain tactic they are almost certainly going to escape, shouldn't the game involve risks and chances?? Well, the risk of being in low sec is that you can't use an inty to tackle without instant pop. That gives people in low sec the chance to escape! Seems to be working this whole risk/chance thing!
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:40:00 - [29] What i meant is if a guy with a wcs jumps in to a one of us with a point he gets away for definite. If a speed fit, cruiser sized battle cruiser even battleship sized ship jumps in he is more than likely going to make it back to the gate, in fact he almost definitely will. If some one jumps in and logs off in 1 minute they will defiantly get away. If some one jumps in with the correct fit to cloak, alling, warp then he will defiantly get away. Theres no risk or chances for them. Maybe if we were in a 20 man gate camp with rapiers and heavy dictors with remote sensor boosting and 15'000 dps ready to be fired at a target then we would get most those kills. But we are not and the new things ccp do to the server make it harder yet for us to get the few kills that fly our way.
OK USA	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Maybe I'm crazy but I thought with the last patch Scrambles disengaged MWD. Maybe I'm crazy but I thought that it's kind of hard to tackle people with a scram in a battleship when they jump through a gate.

Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:47:00 - [31] Originally by: OK USA Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Maybe I'm crazy but I thought with the last patch Scrambles disengaged MWD. Maybe I'm crazy but I thought that it's kind of hard to tackle people with a scram in a battleship when they jump through a gate. i love you
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:48:00 - [32] You had three guys and you couldn't bag him? Bahahahahahah. Fail.
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:50:00 - [33] Originally by: Davina Braben You had three guys and you couldn't bag him? Bahahahahahah. Fail. lol at you for not knowing wtf your saying or doing,,, faaiil
Mal'ol Soddo	Posted - 2008.11.21 11:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Originally by: OK USA Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Maybe I'm crazy but I thought with the last patch Scrambles disengaged MWD. Maybe I'm crazy but I thought that it's kind of hard to tackle people with a scram in a battleship when they jump through a gate. i love you But, but... You just said battleships were gettig back to the gate fast enough to get away... So if you guys sit on the gate, lock them when they uncloak+jam, you can go ram/scramble them, cos your closer right? Right? Or even better, don't fight at the gate/station, nowhere to run then!
Kaiser Sorano	Posted - 2008.11.21 11:37:00 - [35] Scan people down in belts and missions. Scram, web, pop, loot How hard can it be?
Beardponderer You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.11.21 11:55:00 - [36] Originally by: Kaiser Sorano Scan people down in belts and missions. Scram, web, pop, loot How hard can it be? In a lot of area's of low sec there are very little mission runners. Belt pvp died a long time ago, very rarely do I see anyone in a low sec belt unless they are bait. Gate camping gets kills and money for pirates, it's like missioning in a sense because there is little risk. But the OP is right, it is getting much harder to get kills while gatecamping. Before patch our devoter could almost insta-lock anything and dual-web them (domi web). This was with a large amount of remote sensor boosters though which many other pirates won't have. But now, even with a large amount of remote sebo's webs do little to stop a MWD'ing target. CCP are catering for medium to large gangs well but they haven't done much for small gang pvp in a while...
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Letelio Denmun the drake was still able to mwd back to the gate Try having one 9km scrambler. Overheat for 10.8km range. Stops MWD-ing ships like hitting a brick wall, much much faster then 90% webs used to.
Gods Coldblood Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:13:00 - [38] I'm sorry but in alot of ways low sec pvp is dead.. Unlesss you have alot of time to waste waiting, your get bored of it easy.. A pvper in low sec now , would be better off joining the milita or doing what i did and going back to 0.0.. I am at heart a solo pvper so maybe im bais in my opinion, but most corp's will only fight you once or maybe twice if you win the battles, thus making less targets to shoot at.. I dont agree with the idea that 3 people should differently beable to stop 1 target getting back to the gate.. Some lone pvpers do have good control over situations, that its always going to be hard to catch them, but thats what makes them a good kill once you get them! ____________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Gladiator
Todd Doughnut	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:16:00 - [39] Learn how to gate camp Properly. You fit for the type of ships you want to take down. Remote sensor boosted BS with speed fit sits right on the gate, MWD'S toward target and scrams him, turning off his MWD in the process. AT range, use the webs. Fit short range weapons. Your other BS is a highly SB'd sniper. Your third BS is a supporting tank, with support drones / remote reps/ remote SB. Keep him within range of your tackler and fit him with a 24km disruptor. No BS/ BC will escape that. He cannot warp in time, and he cannot mwd back to the gate - since you will intercept him before he reaches roughly 10km. With no MWD and a web on him and your sniper pounding him, hes toast.
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:24:00 - [40] Why would you use a sniper? Close range ships do far more dps, if tracking is an issue you can always use a harbinger which is kept alive by a RR BS. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.

Todd Doughnut	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:27:00 - [41] Having said that, its very hard to get someone who is detrmined not to be caught. When travelling through a lot of low sec, I sometimes have a travel fitting with 3 halcyon WCS's and the rest all inertial II's it turns and burns like a cruiser. Without a HIC you would have to be very lucky with your bumps to stop it. As with all PVP, its hard to beat a dedicated fit being used for its purpose. You could of course add a FOURTH ship to the gate camp equation - a dedicated bump ship - vaga or very fast fitted BC or cruiser. It wouldnt have to take aggro, so no need for a tank.
Todd Doughnut	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:30:00 - [42] The sniper is there because he can shoot without having to get position, and for 'unexpected situations' Its good to have some of your DPS out of range of anything else that might emerge through the gate... Like a horrible horrible EW frig for instance.
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Ticondrius Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Maybe I'm crazy but I thought with the last patch Scrambles disengaged MWD. Only warp DISRUPTORS (you know, the 20km ones?). quoting wrongness
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.11.21 14:28:00 - [44] PvP occurs at points of interest. POS or a gate. POS warfare is boring and the lag is horrendous. If all targets can escape at a gate then there is no PvP but the boring version. This game is for bears now it's WoW in space. Hopefully there will be a PvP game out soon to replace EVE becuase there is no way I'm gonna be crafting curtains for my quarters. I have billions to blow I'm going pirate for the first time until I run out of isk. The bears have forced many good guys out of the game I'm going to repay the favour and go out in a blaze of glory.
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.21 14:39:00 - [45] Maybe you're just terrible piewrats? I laughed so hard at your pitiful attempts to convince us to feel sorry for you big bad piewrats. Thanks for the thread, it just reinforces how piewrats like you are the biggest whining carebears in Eve. P.S. Why don't you go compare hauler-and-shuttle-kill epeen lengths with The Hooch, and cry over a bottle of Rum about CCP nerfing you.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.21 14:48:00 - [46] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Player verses Player comes in many shapes and forms. It is not just new players in haulers and civilian fit cruisers that we have to fight, if you think that is the case then i think you mite need to learn some more before commenting. But you seem to have the view of many thinking for some reason gate camping is not real pvp, no idea where this idea was born I guess it just shows how little you actually know. the kids in the part of London I grew up in loved to fight - it was a really big part of life and brought status with it. however, the ones that couldn't really fight used to hang out in alleyways and jump on people as they went by. THAT'S what gatecamping is. not a stand-up, knock-down fight. now, you can play the game how you like and do what you want, but again, don't come here weeping about how hard it is to gatecamp these days and expect sympathy. ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
Beardponderer You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.11.21 15:37:00 - [47] Originally by: Princess Jodi Maybe you're just terrible piewrats? I laughed so hard at your pitiful attempts to convince us to feel sorry for you big bad piewrats. Thanks for the thread, it just reinforces how piewrats like you are the biggest whining carebears in Eve. P.S. Why don't you go compare hauler-and-shuttle-kill epeen lengths with The Hooch, and cry over a bottle of Rum about CCP nerfing you. Ahahaha.. Go back to CAOD and get out of that **ty alliance. Then you can *** and insult pirates.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.21 15:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Letelio Denmun Sorry im kind of rambaling now, but seeing as my security status prevents me from earning isk via mission running or minning Umm, no?
Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.21 20:30:00 - [49] I love seeing people cry about pirates really makes me feel like we are doing our job well. Todd i dont think you know the first thing about low sec gate camping least of all in tiny gangs so please stop telling me i suck because if i tried your tatics even most the haulers that jumped in (and didnt log off) would get away. As for all the ones who are trying to take a dig at how i play my game, grow up really its stupid. How you can even compare it to a real life gang situation kinda pathetic really.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.21 20:40:00 - [50] Hadnt you heard? Tackling now requires 14 webs, and damage requires 9000 painters.

Letelio Denmun	Posted - 2008.11.22 12:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Soporo Hadnt you heard? Tackling now requires 14 webs, and damage requires 9000 painters. respect to you for saying the truth
VillagePeople	Posted - 2008.11.23 05:17:00 - [52] sensor booster + dual web + 2 pt scram enemy down whether he's got afterburner, MWD or cloak, besides 3 BS is hardly a gatecamp you need a heavy tackler in there like a HAC or a specially kitted out BC to just hold him there while the BS get into range, web and lock.
Tyremis Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.23 05:24:00 - [53] basically ccp only cares about empire as most of the players in eve live there.
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.23 05:39:00 - [54] NO, EVE caters to smart people. the dumb ones are the ones to suffer. Please, jump into traffic
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.11.23 06:31:00 - [55] Now, you have to use scram and a few webs scram, is the new web, by the way
needrandomnamegenerator	Posted - 2008.11.23 06:53:00 - [56] Originally by: VillagePeople sensor booster + dual web + 2 pt scram enemy down whether he's got afterburner, MWD or cloak, besides 3 BS is hardly a gatecamp you need a heavy tackler in there like a HAC or a specially kitted out BC to just hold him there while the BS get into range, web and lock. So basically you agree that CCP lied when they said they meant to keep small gang and SOLO pvp alive after this farce of a patch? Sure does sound like everybody in this thread is in agreement: To fight now, you need- 1)One regular point, to keep them from warping off 2) One scram to shut down MWD's and stop them from re-approaching the gate 3) 3-5 Webs to actually stop the ship 4) 1+ Target Painters, depending on the number of enemies you face 5) DPS to pop a ship in under 15-25 seconds (assuming all your webs, scrams, and points got on in time) 6) Tank, to avoid instapopping by gate guns, or god forbid your prey. YES, they did it, that totally sounds doable by a single ship..
McTard	Posted - 2008.11.23 07:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Gonada NO, EVE caters to smart people. the dumb ones are the ones to suffer. Naw. EVE caters most and best to large groups of average people over small groups of smart people much less a single genius. I mean, look at the GoOnS.


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