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Market Buy/Sell order bots?

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Emi Raaf Emi Raaf's Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:50:00 - [1] So yesterday when refreshing my orders I noticed something odd. Some other person with really large orders were trying to sell the same items too. He refreshes order just after I refresh mine and changes it to the nearest lower price rounded to full isk. (if I set 149.43 he sets 149) Kind of curious, so try at random times, each time he refreshes his order right after I refresh mine. Time for some tests. I try the decoy trick, which mean setting up a second order with only 1 item, refresh the price on it, then when he refreshes his price I refresh the price of my main order. Now he's unable refresh his order for 3 mins(I think) while my order is still on top. He falls for it, however he just keeps refreshing his order normally after the 3min time runs out even if I'm just able to refresh mine, and stay on the top of the market list for another 3mins. Okay.. wait some hours, try the trick again; He's still there refreshing his order. He still falls for the trick. So I change tactic and does something that should require a human mind to decide: Stage 1 - Set up a sell order with only a single unit of that item. Set its price on very low. See what he does about it. He does nothing. He stops refreshing his orders. Stage 2 - Refresh my main sell order so that it undercuts his order, but is still more expensive than my low-price order. He does nothing. Stage 3 - Cancell the low price item order. He does nothing. So we either have a very dumb player, or someone using a bot. Any normal player would've either bought up the single unit low price order or at least refreshed their order so it gets in front of my main order when I refreshed it. Since market in eve is basicly excel online I doubt that it can be very hard for someone to set up a simple bot/macro refreshing his buy/sell orders for him. I Oh and I can't really check who it is, since buying an item now only shows the seller who the buyer is, and not the opposite. What do you think?
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:53:00 - [2] It's a player. /thread
Lothris Andastar	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:02:00 - [3] Originally by: Karille It's a player. /thread Yup its a player. I myself dont sell my 100 items in 1 order, but split it up into 5 or 6 small orders so i can undercut people almost instantly. It's called PvP. Eve is full of it
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:12:00 - [4] Time for this thread again, eh? sigh It's a player. /thread Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Emi Raaf So we either have a very dumb player, or someone using a bot. (...) What do you think? The "He does nothing" scenario would be consistent with an offline or afk player, an option you seem to have ignored. You assume he will ALWAYS do nothing in the three steps you mentioned, while you only tried it once. Though it's perfectly human to see pattern in a singe case, you would need plenty of more of these cases (alternated with undercutting behaviour) to establish a pattern and eliminate (or at least reduce) the possibility of this happening by chance.
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Emi Raaf /e: Karilles reply provides as much content as replying with "you are an ass." If you're going to reply at least add in your reasoning around it. Take no offense. You will get the "It's a player. /thread" replay because you are by far not the first person to suggest that there are market bots. This topic has been argued to Hell and back again a couple of times. Whatever argument you have for existence of market bots, eBay refutes them all.
MenanceWhite Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:22:00 - [7] Edited by: MenanceWhite on 21/11/2008 10:22:29 Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Emi Raaf So we either have a very dumb player, or someone using a bot. (...) What do you think? The "He does nothing" scenario would be consistent with an offline or afk player, an option you seem to have ignored. You assume he will ALWAYS do nothing in the three steps you mentioned, while you only tried it once. Though it's perfectly human to see pattern in a singe case, you would need plenty of more of these cases (alternated with undercutting behaviour) to establish a pattern and eliminate (or at least reduce) the possibility of this happening by chance. It's not the first time, I've been doing so this whole week. There's like around 3 other active players besides me, whenever I put up the single low price item the player in question completely stops to do anything while the other active players still tries to alway undercut my main order. also- emi : my jita/market alt.
Dianalexia	Posted - 2008.11.21 11:41:00 - [8] You should also keep in mind that people will always try protect their interests, no matter what. So, you should not always take for good what the alts are writing in a forum.
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.21 11:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Dianalexia You should also keep in mind that people will always try protect their interests, no matter what. So, you should not always take for good what the alts are writing in a forum. Says the alt... (Apologies if you are not.) Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.21 11:48:00 - [10] Originally by: Dianalexia You should also keep in mind that people will always try protect their interests, no matter what. So, you should not always take for good what the alts are writing in a forum. My mind is broken now. Should I believe what you're saying? To the op: I don't believe it's a bot, and you asked for an opinion. If it is a bot then it looks like you've found a way to break it though, so keep it up i guess.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:01:00 - [11] It's easy to check who it is. Just buy a single unit from him/her/order and you will have it in your transaction log who the seller is. Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar

Salacir Khan Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:15:00 - [12] Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 21/11/2008 10:04:54 It's a player. /thread You said yourself that they didn't blindly undercut you into oblivion. That alone shows some thought behind the actions. As for why they didn't buy your item, maybe they cant buy at the same range they can sell, maybe they aren't interested in buying a single unit of something they're trying to sell anyway. I can't tell you, but that sounds nothing like a macro. If i was to write a Market Bot one of the most important things i would implement would be a Funktion that makes sure that Sell orders never undercut the Price I bought the Stuff for. Without that the Bot would be a complete fail and bankrupt me sooner or later...
Dianalexia	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Dianalexia You should also keep in mind that people will always try protect their interests, no matter what. So, you should not always take for good what the alts are writing in a forum. Sorry, my mistake. I said "alts" because i tried to avoid writing "people" again, like in the previous sentence. No intention to bring forward the main/secondary difference between account avatars (alts).
MenanceWhite Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Salacir Khan If i was to write a Market Bot one of the most important things i would implement would be a Funktion that makes sure that Sell orders never undercut the Price I bought the Stuff for. Without that the Bot would be a complete fail and bankrupt me sooner or later... This, I think it's a bot because I'm "abusing" this by putting up the low price single item sell order which prevents the bot from working. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:51:00 - [15] bot troll detected
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Chribba It's easy to check who it is. Just buy a single unit from him/her/order and you will have it in your transaction log who the seller is. Then you war dec them
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:56:00 - [17] Best way to address things like this is to petition it. Forum mods are not the same people as the GM's checking logs (stating the obvious here mmkay, just making sure as someone might not now it >.<). Forum mods will forward some stuff to relevant sources, but a "confirm/deny" question.. well, that's speculation. No point for them to spend time into it. There's no way you can prove it yourself, testing at random times spread all over the 23/7 EVE is up and you might get an idea if it's worth petitioning or not, but.. GM's have the tools, they can check logs. They will know if the player is online and active 23/7. Account sharing is prohibited, and they can test the reaction time on responses to market orders. That being said, this thread won't lead anywhere. It'll be speculation and that's it.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:58:00 - [18] Edited by: Gnulpie on 21/11/2008 12:59:38 Me! I am the bot in the op Seriously, if you have 'proof' or good hints about macros report them to the GMs filing a pettion. They take these things serious and they have the right tools to investigate more. Though I can imagine that they really hate it (and you do not want the GMs hate) if you accuse over and over again some innocent players who just play some market games. Did it for example occur to you that the second seller just made some fun of you with his price setting?
erica instine	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:13:00 - [19] I have also spotted a market bot and can confirm that they exist, I was trying to buy armor plates for rig building in the sing region, every time I placed an order 1 of 4 dodi buy orders beat my buy order by a couple of isk. Me and my ceo thought we would test how far the bot would go and managed to jack the price upto I think it was around 3-4 times the normal rate, needless to say we made him buy just about the entire regional supply and more which must have come as a huge lose to his wallet. I didnt take down his name but he had 4 market bots running at the same time, constantly out bidding my buy orders and that of my ceo. Now I know players will say this could have been a player, but who in there right mind buys, what must have ben around 5-6k units of armor plates at a hugely over inflated price just too beat a couple of small orders. Yes we only put up 1 buy order for a single unit and constantly updated the order to beat the bots every few minutes until they ran out of sell orders. No human would fall for that. and the 4 bot orders was sequencially out bidding us as soon as the market timer would allow it. The bot seemed to only respond to a range of 2-3jumps market changes but had 5 jump range buy orders. This would prevent the bot from going straight to the top of the buy order list but ensure that it gained the most units over the local area, which being in dodi covers alot of mission areas. Needless to say that when it was finished we petitioned the event.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:16:00 - [20] there are no market bots and/or macros.
dr doooo	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Victor Valka Whatever argument you have for existence of market bots, eBay refutes them all. I don't think that is really a valid argument. A bot could make a farmer a tidy little real life income. With the limited skills needed for trading, they could be back in action with a new char straight away if they were caught. If they sold it on ebay though, the whole market would be broken pretty quick, and the system changed, making their bot redundant. A few years ago, on the high end pirate implant markets, I came up against what was either a bot, or a team of worker farmers which pretty strict instructions about the limits of updates for buy/sell orders from their boss. For 2 or 3 weeks they were updating 23/7 every 10-15mins. Disappeared 5 or 6 hours after I posted about them on the forums and threatened to petition them. Easier to move on than risk losing some isk from a ban I guess. Not much you can do about it though if they do exist. With the extra market activity these days, if you just used a bit of common sense with your bot settings, number of orders used etc, and set it a few notches down from 'maximum greed', it would be pretty much impossible to detect in the more busy markets.
dr doooo	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:44:00 - [22] Originally by: erica instine I have also spotted a market bot and can confirm that they exist, I was trying to buy armor plates for rig building in the sing region, every time I placed an order 1 of 4 dodi buy orders beat my buy order by a couple of isk. Me and my ceo thought we would test how far the bot would go and managed to jack the price upto I think it was around 3-4 times the normal rate, needless to say we made him buy just about the entire regional supply and more which must have come as a huge lose to his wallet. I didnt take down his name but he had 4 market bots running at the same time, constantly out bidding my buy orders and that of my ceo. Now I know players will say this could have been a player, but who in there right mind buys, what must have ben around 5-6k units of armor plates at a hugely over inflated price just too beat a couple of small orders. Yes we only put up 1 buy order for a single unit and constantly updated the order to beat the bots every few minutes until they ran out of sell orders. No human would fall for that. and the 4 bot orders was sequencially out bidding us as soon as the market timer would allow it. The bot seemed to only respond to a range of 2-3jumps market changes but had 5 jump range buy orders. This would prevent the bot from going straight to the top of the buy order list but ensure that it gained the most units over the local area, which being in dodi covers alot of mission areas. Needless to say that when it was finished we petitioned the event. You'd be surprised how persistent, bloody minded, or irrational real life traders can sometimes be.
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:49:00 - [23] Originally by: dr doooo You'd be surprised how persistent, bloody minded, or irrational real life traders can sometimes be. The old sell at a loss and make it up in volume phenomenon is alive and well.
Mjolnor Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:53:00 - [24] Yes, they exist. A quick Google search proofs it.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:56:00 - [25] How can everyone be so sure there are no market bots? There are mining bots, hauling bots, npc bots, local monitoring bots, autopilot to zero bots, skill changing bots... And thats just what I found whilst using google for 5 minutes... makes me sad really...
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Mjolnor Yes, they exist. A quick Google search proofs it. Really? I see mining, ratting, and trade route finders, but I've yet to see anything that buys and sells.
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.21 14:06:00 - [27] Originally by: dr doooo Originally by: Victor Valka Whatever argument you have for existence of market bots, eBay refutes them all. I don't think that is really a valid argument. A bot could make a farmer a tidy little real life income. With the limited skills needed for trading, they could be back in action with a new char straight away if they were caught. If they sold it on ebay though, the whole market would be broken pretty quick, and the system changed, making their bot redundant. It really is a valid argument. Consider these points: 1) There is no shortage in variety of mining bots for sale on eBay or elsewhere on the Internet. 2) From (1), it is clear that there are many competing developers working on bots for EVE Online. 3) Aforementioned developers are motivated by real money and care little for what happens with our Internet spaces-ships. 4) There is, obviously, interest in market bots. As shown by various threads on these forums. I.e. there is demand for the product. If we have demand, there is profit to be made in providing supply and ,for potential suppliers, there are no moral obstructions. So why is there no supply? I'll go with "not feasible within the current system", therefor, there are no market bots.
Mjolnor Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.11.21 14:08:00 - [28] I can't really tell you any more since even assisting people in finding these things is against the EULA.
Salacir Khan Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.11.21 14:12:00 - [29] Edited by: Salacir Khan on 21/11/2008 14:14:15 Originally by: DrAtomic How can everyone be so sure there are no market bots? There are mining bots, hauling bots, npc bots, local monitoring bots, autopilot to zero bots, skill changing bots... And thats just what I found whilst using google for 5 minutes... makes me sad really... Even with my rather limited Programing Skills, I think i should be able to write something. I think what prevents Market Bots to exist is the fact that its (probably) rather easy for CCP to become aware off. All they would need to do is to check if someoneis spamming hits Hits the "Download XML Data". This would have to be done very frequently, all day long to make it work.
Mjolnor Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.11.21 14:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Victor Valka If we have demand, there is profit to be made in providing supply and ,for potential suppliers, there are no moral obstructions. So why is there no supply? I'll go with "not feasible within the current system", therefor, there are no market bots. Or maybe there is? It's on the internetz And yes, I've reported the site where I found that to CCP.

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