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Salo Aldeland Luma Operations 61	Posted - 2012.06.18 17:53:00 - [601] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: I don't care if I can still line up for cake, I missed the line up for pie and that's not fair! People are asking way too much for their slice of pie, pie was really cheap back when people first started lining up. Besides, people who knew the baker got to cut ahead, I'm positive! I can't think of any other way people could possible manage to be at the front of the line up other than the baker just choosing who goes where! In real life you don't have to line up for pie and there's enough for everybody, and if the baker ever stops making pie all the pies he's already baked have to be handed back in! Death to pie! Death to pie! You guys hate WoW, right? Well WoW is totally full of pie (don't look into it just believe me, I'm totally right) so if you like pie you like WoW, and around here that makes you stupid, so you're stupid! Seriously, explain it to me like I'm five. What's a sandbox game? What's an e-sport? Where do BPO's come into this? Because it sounds to me like you're saying EVE isn't a sandbox at all because there's a limited number of BPO's in the game, and they're useful to own. And it isn't an e-sport at all, for exactly the same reason. So BPO's somehow simultaneously make EVE less like an e-sport ( and so more like a sand box ) and less of a true sand box ( therefor more like an e-sport). This is god damned confusing.
shar'ra matcevsovski Hedion University Amarr Empire 87	Posted - 2012.06.18 18:29:00 - [602] - Quote Kara Books wrote: Quote: Cheaper than a Titan BPO, too. I rather have the titan, more fun =) Titan BPO does not mean he gets a free titan, Mr. Badass should read more carefully before you drop your extremly usefull oneliner, next time
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 1964	Posted - 2012.06.18 19:37:00 - [603] - Quote Kara Books wrote: I rather have the titan, more fun =) Titan BPCs have gotten so cheap now, I don't think it's worth it. Back when they were 15-20b per copy, owning a BPO was awesome. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Toramii Le Moulin Rouge 9	Posted - 2012.06.19 21:20:00 - [604] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: 2. ... Information about the workings of the lottery were also released to key players. This information was regarding the amount of BPO's in each individual lottery and how many tickets were participating. This gave key players insight into which lottery to enter giving them far greater chances of obtaining T2BPO's... Do you know that information about the numbers and types of BPO's seeded was publically available on the forums during the lottery
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 2006	Posted - 2012.06.20 07:34:00 - [605] - Quote Toramii wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: 2. ... Information about the workings of the lottery were also released to key players. This information was regarding the amount of BPO's in each individual lottery and how many tickets were participating. This gave key players insight into which lottery to enter giving them far greater chances of obtaining T2BPO's... Do you know that information about the numbers and types of BPO's seeded was publically available on the forums during the lottery He defines "Key Players" as "Anyone who had a Sub during the lottery time period" Do try to keep up. It's more fun when everyone has the same pair of pants on their head. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Smohq Anmirorz State War Academy Caldari State 12	Posted - 2012.06.20 18:58:00 - [606] - Quote Salo Aldeland wrote: Dude seriously hates pie. I laugh every time I read this.
Ms Bax Union Of EVE 6	Posted - 2012.06.21 04:22:00 - [607] - Quote This thread is really amusing. Brewlar is a great troll (or completely nuts).
Salo Aldeland Luma Operations 61	Posted - 2012.06.21 13:37:00 - [608] - Quote Ms Bax wrote: This thread is really amusing. Brewlar is a great troll (or completely nuts). Like I said, he's either the biggest idiot or the best troll I've seen in at least a decade. And when find a mountain like that, you damn well climb it.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force 1154	Posted - 2012.06.21 21:24:00 - [609] - Quote Ms Bax wrote: This thread is really amusing. Brewlar is a great troll (or completely nuts). If I wouldn't have been up to my neck and beyond in RL work for the past 2++ weeks, I would have have totally answered in here more often. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 93	Posted - 2012.06.21 22:59:00 - [610] - Quote Kinda amusing how CCP is threatning to remove hard won and worked ISK from a goon LP and market manipulation scheme when CCP itself was dumping T2BPO's into the hands of chosen players that netted them billions of ISK for zero effort.

RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 2030	Posted - 2012.06.21 23:16:00 - [611] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Kinda amusing how CCP is threatning to remove hard won and worked ISK from a goon LP and market manipulation scheme when CCP itself was dumping T2BPO's into the hands of chosen players that netted them billions of ISK for zero effort. Huh? Also, explain how T2BPOs were placed into the hands of chosen players as opposed to anyone who played the lottery, and explain how they're zero effort. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Smohq Anmirorz State War Academy Caldari State 14	Posted - 2012.06.22 01:12:00 - [612] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Kinda amusing how CCP is threatning to remove hard won and worked ISK from a goon LP and market manipulation scheme when CCP itself was dumping T2BPO's into the hands of chosen players that netted them billions of ISK for zero effort. Huh? Also, explain how T2BPOs were placed into the hands of chosen players as opposed to anyone who played the lottery, and explain how they're zero effort. Oh, come on, now, you've seen the protocol. Change the subject, make outrageous claims, back the claims up with statements that make no sense and proclaim that everyone agrees.
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 2030	Posted - 2012.06.22 01:31:00 - [613] - Quote Smohq Anmirorz wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Kinda amusing how CCP is threatning to remove hard won and worked ISK from a goon LP and market manipulation scheme when CCP itself was dumping T2BPO's into the hands of chosen players that netted them billions of ISK for zero effort. Huh? Also, explain how T2BPOs were placed into the hands of chosen players as opposed to anyone who played the lottery, and explain how they're zero effort. Oh, come on, now, you've seen the protocol. Change the subject, make outrageous claims, back the claims up with statements that make no sense and proclaim that everyone agrees. Actually, just found the Goon LP thing. It's freaking hilarious, and CCP did say they're considering some undisclosed thing to deal with it. They didn't threaten anything. I do think the first clause of that post was the closest thing to a truth that Brewlar's expressed in this thread. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 175	Posted - 2012.06.22 02:11:00 - [614] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Kinda amusing how CCP is threatning to remove hard won and worked ISK from a goon LP and market manipulation scheme when CCP itself was dumping T2BPO's into the hands of chosen players that netted them billions of ISK for zero effort. Huh? Also, explain how T2BPOs were placed into the hands of chosen players as opposed to anyone who played the lottery, and explain how they're zero effort. Way back when, once upon a time, there where some Devs who litarally gave out BPO's to some... undisclosed parties, This was quiqly found out, proven and spread across new eden like wildfire, Never the less, in very short order, a few people where fired and some acounts where banned/deleted, taking the Unfair BPO's out of the game, forever (suposently), Dont know the exact details, but thats the word on the streets.
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 2030	Posted - 2012.06.22 02:19:00 - [615] - Quote Kara Books wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Kinda amusing how CCP is threatning to remove hard won and worked ISK from a goon LP and market manipulation scheme when CCP itself was dumping T2BPO's into the hands of chosen players that netted them billions of ISK for zero effort. Huh? Also, explain how T2BPOs were placed into the hands of chosen players as opposed to anyone who played the lottery, and explain how they're zero effort. Way back when, once upon a time, there where some Devs who litarally gave out BPO's to some... undisclosed parties, This was quiqly found out, proven and spread across new eden like wildfire, Never the less, in very short order, a few people where fired and some acounts where banned/deleted, taking the Unfair BPO's out of the game, forever (suposently), Dont know the exact details, but thats the word on the streets. Yes, the T20 incident (PS, T20 is still working at CCP last I checked), which resulted in those BPOs being removed from the game, which means that any market effects that those BPOs caused have long since disappeared. And Brewlar said "netted" which implies that the players in question got to keep anything. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
shar'ra matcevsovski Hedion University Amarr Empire 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 10:00:00 - [616] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Kinda amusing how CCP is threatning to remove hard won and worked ISK from a goon LP and market manipulation scheme when CCP itself was dumping T2BPO's into the hands of chosen players that netted them billions of ISK for zero effort. yep, btw as a Owner of T2 BPO`s I obviously know all the dev's and they told me, that they are not listening to your moaning anymore, even tho they know your 100% right, they need a way to risk their job by giving certain ppl a advantage.
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 11:12:00 - [617] - Quote shar'ra matcevsovski wrote: yep, btw as a Owner of T2 BPO`s I obviously know all the dev's and they told me, that they are not listening to your moaning anymore, even tho they know your 100% right, they need a way to risk their job by giving certain ppl a advantage. I don't think anyone here would suggest that the Devs think T2BPO was a good idea or we'd have more T2BPO lottery for the new T2 items and T3. T2BPO lottery, T20 and the fact that invention has lower ME than a T2BPO is moronic and the Devs need to get off their ass stop moaning about goons playing the game better than their friends and fix T2BPO and invention.
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 2030	Posted - 2012.06.22 15:22:00 - [618] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: shar'ra matcevsovski wrote: yep, btw as a Owner of T2 BPO`s I obviously know all the dev's and they told me, that they are not listening to your moaning anymore, even tho they know your 100% right, they need a way to risk their job by giving certain ppl a advantage. I don't think anyone here would suggest that the Devs think T2BPO was a good idea or we'd have more T2BPO lottery for the new T2 items and T3. T2BPO lottery, T20 and the fact that invention has lower ME than a T2BPO is moronic and the Devs need to get off their ass stop moaning about goons playing the game better than their friends and fix T2BPO and invention. Does the inefficiency of invention stop people from making money from invention? This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
shar'ra matcevsovski Hedion University Amarr Empire 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 15:33:00 - [619] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: I don't think anyone here would suggest that the Devs think T2BPO was a good idea what?
Ore Bunny Perkone Caldari State 4	Posted - 2012.06.22 16:35:00 - [620] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: the fact that invention has lower ME than a T2BPO is moronic ..no its not. T2 BPOs give you a quite low hard limit on how much you can build with them, so they have to have a better ME to be of any use. Invention doesnt have a limit on how many items( aka profit) you can make, wich at the end gives invention a much better potencial. seriously if your not able to get that you should stop posting, its getting ridiculous.

Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 17:29:00 - [621] - Quote Yeah Joy, T2BPO undercutting my manufcature and invention cost lucky for me I have the potential to blow billions of ISK away with multiple BPC's in mutliple slots while the T2BPO is stuck making zero effort profit in one slot. Joy for T2BPO and legacy game content that is no longer avalible to noobs unless they want to spend thousands of dollars, yeah CCP joy. Sony I hope you're reading this.
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 17:34:00 - [622] - Quote ------- Cut by ISD Stensson ------- Talking about Kugutsumen. Shame CCP can not talk this way about T2BPO's as it besmriches EVE and CCP's image while doing damage to the game. Edit: Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not allowed - ISD Stensson
Ore Bunny Perkone Caldari State 4	Posted - 2012.06.22 17:42:00 - [623] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Yeah Joy, T2BPO undercutting my manufcature and invention cost lucky for me I have the potential to blow billions of ISK away with multiple BPC's in mutliple slots while the T2BPO is stuck making zero effort profit in one slot. you said that crap 100 times now, and we've proven you 100 times that its just wrong. Even if you would remove all T2 BPO`s not every item can be made with profit. Your looking for a ******-prove game that eve clearly is not supposed to be.
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 17:51:00 - [624] - Quote Ore Bunny wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Yeah Joy, T2BPO undercutting my manufacture and invention cost lucky for me I have the potential to blow billions of ISK away with multiple BPC's in multiple slots while the T2BPO is stuck making zero effort profit in one slot. you said that crap 100 times now, and we've proven you 100 times that its just wrong. Even if you would remove all T2 BPO`s not every item can be made with profit. Your looking for a *****-prove game that eve clearly is not supposed to be. ------- Cut by ISD Stensson -------* T2 production can be unprofitable disregarding invention woes just like all T1 production can be unprofitable from BPO's. However T2 BPC's have the problem that they must compete against T2BPO's and in some lines this is not possible. T3 with no BPO's does not have this problem, CCP know that T2BPO's are a major problem or we'd have T3 BPO's. ------- Cut by ISD Stensson ------- Edit: Please refrain from personal attacks. Also, be constructive while posting - ISD Stensson
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force 1154	Posted - 2012.06.22 18:19:00 - [625] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Where is Akita Busy@job. The maelstrom of arguments so far basically boil down to something very simple. On one hand, producing from a BPO is always cheaper, but has a much higher initial cost (which can be recovered, sometimes lower, sometimes higher) and has a maximum production volume. For items with low demand, the max production volume from BPOs is sufficient to satisfy the entire demand, so invention can't compete because equilibrium price is below invention breakeven (and many times, barely above BPO breakeven). However, the overall total value of those items is relatively small, even if by pure item TYPE count they represent the majority. On the other hand, production from an invented BPC is always more expensive, but has a very small initial cost (recurring and non-recoverable) and is as good as unlimited as far as production volume of any particular item goes. For items with high demand, BPOs can't possibly match demand, so price rises, quickly surpassing invention breakeven, so demand for invented items starts existing. The more popular the item, the higher the demand, the more slice of the pie inventors have. The overall total value of those items is very high, even if by total item count they're a minority. T2 BPO owners COULD significantly undercut inventors if they wanted, but it would generally be a very stupid thing to do, because it would further decrease the already pathetically small RoI of the T2 BPOs. To me, this looks like a perfect compromise - you can always get what you want, and stuff only a few people want is dirt cheap ; T2 BPO profit is capped by whatever the added invention costs are for the corresponding item, as opposed to it being it free to soar, while RoI remains very low ; inventors can quickly switch to whatever the "item of the month" might be, whereas BPO owners have a very high inertia. To Brewlar Kuvakei, it looks like "unfairness" because he can't accept different production methods for the exact same items, and because he feels too many of the current owners (for HIS taste) have obtained the BPOs as too much of a good deal (in his opinion), so he is perfectly willing to sacrifice the older alternative production method in pursuit of that illusory fairness, and damn the consequences. And that's pretty much it. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 19:00:00 - [626] - Quote Akita the initial cost of t2BPO is not high, it was RP cheap and easy and as you know this is one of the major problems of T2BPO. You talk about high ROI but the initial investment of Research Points was minuscule to the amount of ISK T2BPO's produce on top of their actual value for being able to do so with out fail each month. ROI on T2BPO was immediate and massive. Players chosen by CCP in a 'lottery' were given items worth 100's of billions of ISK with out the same value of ISK being taken out of the game or effort being put in. If there is no reason to remove T2BPO why have CCP not introduced T3 BPO's, T2BPO's for newer items or even a single t2BPO on the newer Chinese server? Seriously someone answer this. If there is nothing wrong with T2BPO's why has CCP stopped producing them? T2BPO diminishes the game putting it's complexity on par with every other MMO. CCP remove T2BPO make Eve real. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours?
shar'ra matcevsovski Hedion University Amarr Empire 93	Posted - 2012.06.22 19:27:00 - [627] - Quote funny that you only "allow" Akita T to be the only T2 BPO supporter here, even tho he is the one who is killing your points brutally by numbers, every time. Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Akita the initial cost of t2BPO is not high, it was RP cheap and easy and as you know this is one of the major problems of T2BPO. You talk about high ROI but the initial investment of Research Points was minuscule to the amount of ISK when you talk about ROI, you have to take current market numbers, using 8 year old values to compare them to current return is just wrong/stupid Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: T2BPO's produce on top of their actual value for being able to do so with out fail each month. ROI on T2BPO was immediate and massive. you clearly dont know what ROI means, please do your Homework. Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: If there is no reason to remove T2BPO why have CCP not introduced T3 BPO's, how many T3 items are existing at them moment? are T3 ships made by invention? is it maybe something total different? Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: If there is nothing wrong with T2BPO's why has CCP stopped producing them? oh now your using CCP`s decisions for your arguments? hmm...on the other hand, why havent they revomed the BPO`s yet? Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: CCP remove T2BPO make Eve real. your told to be constructive, paroles are not.
Smohq Anmirorz State War Academy Caldari State 14	Posted - 2012.06.22 19:37:00 - [628] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Yeah Joy, T2BPO undercutting my manufcature and invention cost lucky for me I have the potential to blow billions of ISK away with multiple BPC's in mutliple slots while the T2BPO is stuck making zero effort profit in one slot. Joy for T2BPO and legacy game content that is no longer avalible to noobs unless they want to spend thousands of dollars, yeah CCP joy. Hurray!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force 1155	Posted - 2012.06.22 20:13:00 - [629] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Akita the initial cost of t2BPO is not high, it was RP cheap and easy and as you know this is one of the major problems of T2BPO. Time is, as far as we know, irreversible. Some distant past value of T2 BPOs is no longer relevant. The only value that matters now is CURRENT value. Holding on to a T2 BPO today instead of selling it is interchangeable with having the necessary ISK for it but not purchasing one. Quote: Players chosen by CCP in a 'lottery' were given items worth 100's of billions of ISK with out the same value of ISK being taken out of the game or effort being put in. The players were not chosen by any CCP staff manually, the overwhelming vast majority was chosen by a random number generator operating an automated lottery. The vast majority of the items were not worth nearly that many billions of ISK at that time anyway, and people that approved the exchange of RP (in amounts which were nowhere near as low as you seem to keep on claiming) for offered T2 BPOs also lost out on an extremely profitable opportunity some time later, when RPs were extremely valuable, shortly after invention was introduced. All NPC drops, all mining, most of PI, everything adds items to the game without removing their corresponding ISK value from the game, so that's no good argument. People today STILL RECEIVE other items that can be worth many billions of ISK on a daily basis via another random number generator picking NPC loot drops, so that's not a good argument either, and I don't ever hear you complaining about that anyway. Quote: If there is no reason to remove T2BPO why have CCP not introduced T3 BPO's, T2BPO's for newer items or even a single t2BPO on the newer Chinese server? Seriously someone answer this. If there is nothing wrong with T2BPO's why has CCP stopped producing them? Invention is a more attractive alternative in case T2 BPOs never existed. That could be achieved on the Serenity cluster (and for newly introduced items after invention started on TQ), but, again, since time is irreversible for humans on this planet at this time (and may forever be irreversible), it is impossible to do for the Tranquility cluster for the older T2 items. Removing existing T2 BPOs now does not change the past, it only alters the present and future, and it's a BAD choice for many reasons already heavily explained in this thread. So, yes, if somehow CCP could actually go back in time and introduce invention instead of the T2 BPO lottery, then heck yeah, I would be the strongest supporter for such a thing. Too bad time travel does not exist, eh ? The least damaging POSSIBLE alternative would be for CCP to bring invention manufacture cost closer to T2 BPO manufacture cost, BUT THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO EVEN THAT MUCH to any radical extent. They did however slightly nudge invented item production costs closer to T2 BPO enabled item production costs, but only very slightly, and very infrequently. Quote: T2BPO diminishes the game putting it's complexity on par with every other MMO. Invention exists. Invention is used. It may not be used to the EXTENT you might like, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists and it is used. T2 BPOs are an alternative production method to invention, a choice that can be made for each individual item. REMOVING T2 BPOs reduces complexity, it does not increase it. You're arguing against your own position here. ... P.S. This is all the time I can spare today. You may be wise to listen to the rest of the people attempting to talk to you, they have quite decent explanations, even if their presentation is less polite or sometimes less extensive. Not being willing to even consider anybody else's explanations except mine is a low move. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 2031	Posted - 2012.06.22 22:00:00 - [630] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Yeah Joy, T2BPO undercutting my manufcature and invention cost lucky for me I have the potential to blow billions of ISK away with multiple BPC's in mutliple slots while the T2BPO is stuck making zero effort profit in one slot. Joy for T2BPO and legacy game content that is no longer avalible to noobs unless they want to spend thousands of dollars, yeah CCP joy. Sony I hope you're reading this. Ah, now we get to why Brewlar's mad. He lost money on invention because he didn't look at the market first. If you pick your invention without doing your market research and loose all your money, that's your fault. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.



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