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Winidin
Minmatar
Out-Rage
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Posted - 2008.11.24 15:58:00 -
[31]
2 Things:
1) Tracking computer would probably do you better than TP, and did you have missiles fit?
2) You can manually alter the movement of your own ship to match the orbit of your target so reduce their angular to you...it's a ***** but doable...though to be honest I've never really tried it...haven't had enough situations with tracking disrupts to need to. If I ever duel my friend's pilgrim again in my rupture I'll probably have to...
P.S. Armor tanking cyclone?
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Pollux21
Project Nemesis
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:01:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Ugluuk
Edited by: Ugluuk on 24/11/2008 03:00:26
With dual webs,Target painter and armor tank on the cyclone i was ready to rock&own!!
how to solo pvp:
1)buy a crap ship
2)fit it so that it utilizes little to none of its bonuses
3)find a small gang that came out looking just for you
4)sit back and collect your insurance
5)blame ccp
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scrambled
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:36:00 -
[33]
AF gangs with TD's are indeed a pain in the ass recently; I got my ass handed to me by 7 AF's against my Harbinger in much the same fashion; TD + webs + 2pt scram = no mwd, no speed, and not hitting jack **** even with 2 tracking computers going.
It's interesting to see though that AF's are slowly becoming useful.
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:02:00 -
[34]
You went out solo looking for a AF gang to fight in a battlecruiser? OMG thats not good at all.
But hmm some kind of Lol-bomb set up whould rule i guess against small ship gangs.
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DeathsEmbrace
Minmatar
The Renegades Asylum
DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:11:00 -
[35]
Being a solo pvper your always at a disadvantage these days. Having flown with bydi, i have full respect for there prowess. However, to put a little perspective to the ops post an ab hac can out run a bs's tracking, and out tank bs missles. (Vaga can still solo the bs's ) The patch has hit the larger classes harder that the smaller ones. Af's are very much the ship of choice for packs which is fun. But for those of us that do solo (because we want the challenge of it) its made a area of pvp that was hard to do to begin with much harder. Tryng to find good solo fights was hard work before, now its very hard as anyone with 3mil sp can fly a af, eaf. Those that have dedicated time and effort to specialise in tactics that they enjoy have yet again been slapped in the face by ccp's patches.
To the op, get a interdictor. TC's can help a bc but theres nothing in eve like a dictor for screwing a frig gang over.
To live is to die, and to die is to give life. Thus pain is a form of euphoria.
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Xofii
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:24:00 -
[36]
I understand your main point, but disagree. TD's are a very specific ewar, it doesnt break locks and only applies to 1/3d of the weapons systems, as such it should be much more powerful against that weap sys which designed for. A group of frigs should lose a few against a competent opponent, however not if they apply the correct dmg mitigations techniques.
A well balanced gang with specific ewar vs your ship? Had they had an ECM'ing EAF with racial jammers as well on all the AF's using a minnie jammer, you wouldn't have had lock during the entire fight. Would that be any better?
Ewar is a force-multiplier, and when allready outnumbered that means you were infact facing an even larger gang. You can allmost say you engaged a 12 man gang and got outdpsed faster than you could bring anyone down with you.
Af's are still not as good as they should be, they are a niche ship still and as such they should excell in the environment where they work. Against frig>->bc sized ships that can't dictate range.
Had you jumped into a gang of 7 other thoraxes and expected to bring one or two down with you before you die? AF's are roughly equivalent with cruisers in which role they fill but most often worse. Now atleast (new sigrad)there are circumstance where you arent better off just using a cruiser instead, that is a good thing.
tl;dr all well balanced groups as well as all niche-ships should vastly outperform other ships used in their respective areas. You got unlucky in what the opposing gang brought nothing more nothing less.
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SecHaul
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:32:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Xofii
A well balanced gang with specific ewar vs your ship? Had they had an ECM'ing EAF with racial jammers as well on all the AF's using a minnie jammer, you wouldn't have had lock during the entire fight. Would that be any better?
This. So a group of frigates get under your guns, hold you down, and disrupt your weapons so you cannot track. Or, they could have a single Griffin and permajam your Cyclone with it's useless sensor strength.
TD's have less range, impact fewer ships, and still allow for some shots to land where as jamming means you cannot do anything for the entire fight. I fail to see what is wrong with Tracking Disruptors. If you are unhappy with EWAR, you need to start with other ships.
Also, it's common knowledge that fitting neuts / NOS has become more important in your defense. Fitting 2 medium neuts meant you could have picked your targets, neut'd those TD'ing you, and continued on. Let me guess, your highs were all weapons?
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SecHaul
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Winidin
2 Things:
1) Tracking computer would probably do you better than TP, and did you have missiles fit?
2) You can manually alter the movement of your own ship to match the orbit of your target so reduce their angular to you...it's a ***** but doable...though to be honest I've never really tried it...haven't had enough situations with tracking disrupts to need to. If I ever duel my friend's pilgrim again in my rupture I'll probably have to...
P.S. Armor tanking cyclone?
P.S.S. You do not know much about the tracking formula. A TP will provide a equal benefit than a TC with a tracking script, and if you have skills trained, it's better.
And I would assume that the AF gang had scrams and webs, making manual flying almost useless. Even if you landed a few good rounds, AF's would easily tank it.
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Mentalman
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Posted - 2008.11.24 22:24:00 -
[39]
The thing here is not that he attacked a bunch of AF`s in a cyclone and died.He wanted a few AF kills in a useless ship he had and fitted 2 webs and target painter to counter the insane tracking nerf.
Because of the patch 2 webs and target painter is not enough anymore at times which i have to agree with the op is sad for the pvp..
And when you look at many of these ignorant people that comment in here you see that the few that agree with the op that tracking is out of order is the only ones doing active pvp in here..
The others can jump back into their AF and enjoy the one thing that CCP did wrong in this patch..
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Marc Isabel
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 23:04:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mentalman
The thing here is not that he attacked a bunch of AF`s in a cyclone and died.He wanted a few AF kills in a useless ship he had and fitted 2 webs and target painter to counter the insane tracking nerf.
Because of the patch 2 webs and target painter is not enough anymore at times which i have to agree with the op is sad for the pvp..
And when you look at many of these ignorant people that comment in here you see that the few that agree with the op that tracking is out of order is the only ones doing active pvp in here..
The others can jump back into their AF and enjoy the one thing that CCP did wrong in this patch..
Excellent. If all you "active PvP'ers" fail to adapt, motivated by some personal PvP pride artifact, killing you becomes all the easier :)
Then again, you might start fitting appropriately sometime. Ohnoz! Being an "active PvP'er" myself, I'd probably respond the same way as you "active PvP'ers" do and stubbornly refuse to disengage and pick another fight.
Conclusion? Adapt, or die.
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Pollux21
Project Nemesis
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Posted - 2008.11.24 23:38:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Marc Isabel
Originally by: Mentalman
Conclusion? Adapt, or die.
Adapt. perfect response to the post tbh from a former war dec no less... cheers mate.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.24 23:39:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Mentalman
The thing here is not that he attacked a bunch of AF`s in a cyclone and died.He wanted a few AF kills in a useless ship he had and fitted 2 webs and target painter to counter the insane tracking nerf.
Because of the patch 2 webs and target painter is not enough anymore at times which i have to agree with the op is sad for the pvp..
And when you look at many of these ignorant people that comment in here you see that the few that agree with the op that tracking is out of order is the only ones doing active pvp in here..
The others can jump back into their AF and enjoy the one thing that CCP did wrong in this patch..
Would there have been ONE falcon he'd have died as well, same result.
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Valius Altmer
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.24 23:54:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Valius Altmer on 24/11/2008 23:54:25
While I agree with the adapt or die scenario...I would also like to point out that there are some people like the op, that have been through hundreds of nerfs. Each time taking a specific tactic and invalidating it. Every Nerf bringing us closer and closer to the only thing that really makes a difference is how many people you bring.
In this nerf, they have destroyed the close range ships. Even Bs vs Bs at close range has been affected.
At this rate its only a matter of time before they make Jedi a starting class...
edit: spelling
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Villwrath
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.11.25 00:21:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Valius Altmer
At this rate its only a matter of time before they make Jedi a starting class...
No but in the next patch they are removing all skills and making it level based.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.25 04:50:00 -
[45]
I don't mean to offend the OP, but this really smacks of "I lost a fight, CCP has to nerf everything related to it".
______________________
Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Wusti
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.11.25 05:56:00 -
[46]
Jeez - you sure started something with this thread Ugluuk.
I'd recommend alot of the peeps posting get a grip and take a deep breath. The guy likes to solo - his choice of playstyle. In this particular instance his comment is regarding TD's - and pre-patch much neglected module coming back into vogue. Personally I LIKE CCP making you think really hard about your fitting and knowing what sort of scenarios you can handle and what you can't.
Quite frankly, the noobs will still be noobs are die in their thousands - god bless them! I liek frigates actually having a viable role these days. Maybe a different choice of BC would fared better and stood a chance of taking some of them down with him. It doesn't matter really.
CCP is trying to re-balance - trying is good. Screwing up occassionally should be expected. I still think the jury is out on this one, but frigs are by no means the new win button. I also sympathise, having spent time cross-training for an Arazu when Falcon's weren't all that flash, only to have Falcon's OK again, and Arazu's not up to scratch - and now they're both pretty awesome - which makes me a happy camper NOW - but not then.
It's a process guys - go with it, or don't - but flamers at least try and get the point of the guy's post eh?
_______________________
Welcome to The New Era
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.25 07:44:00 -
[47]
The point of his post was to whine about how he got killed by several people who knew what they wre doing. Would he have seen TWO ships, a BC and a Rook on his scan he'd have realized it'd be pointless and not attack, instead he didn't realize that smaller ships now can easily kill larger ships (this is what we've been boasting about for years, size!=win right?).
So, essentially he's whining about not undertanding the new rules and how he didn't get kills with his uberleet skills and 'experience'.
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:54:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Adaera on 25/11/2008 11:54:33
Originally by: Ugluuk
Edited by: Ugluuk on 24/11/2008 03:00:26
waaaaaaah, I wasn't able to hit frigates with medium guns because tracking disruptors do exactly what they're meant to do. I should be a solopwnmobile that can take on multiple ships at once and win.
NERF NERF NERF
Fixed.
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Doktor Soet
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:54:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Doktor Soet on 25/11/2008 14:00:04
Edited by: Doktor Soet on 25/11/2008 13:57:04
well honestly i think too that something is a bit wrong since the last patch.
what happend to me is somehow the most embarassing thing that has happend to me since i play, but i`m not whining about it and ask for a nerf or something like that. i just wanna say its a bit strange and perhaps a little adjustment would be something to think about. so pls stay polite and dont flame me (laughing is ok) :)
ok what happend: rifter sitting peacefully at a high sec gate in low sec. i decide to engage with my phobos. the first volley was fine and i was able to hit but then it was nearly over. as he was just 3 or 4 days old he must have had an ab fitted. i had a web on him (he still did around 400) and my medium electron guns did no or really low dmg (to be say it clearer, he was never in danger to die). my pc then decided its time for a chrash so i died to a rifter and sentries. u can start laughing here, cause when i came back online i did it too
again this is no whine!! i just find it a bit strange that the smallest medium blaster guns combined with a web cant track/hit a t1 frigate. in my opinion something is a bit wrong there. and no he had no tracking disruptor fitted cause i was scrammed and webbed...
soet
EDIT: i know now that next time i have to think bout different setups to counter this "problem" but again i think some things in the last patch have gonna a little too far...
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nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.25 17:49:00 -
[50]
Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad.
I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly.
Seems simple enough.
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Xofii
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.25 18:08:00 -
[51]
Originally by: nether void
Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad.
I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly.
Seems simple enough.
Yes I understood the point he made, and had they not used the most apropriate force-multiplier in this case he would have taken 1 or two with him (i hope). I do think that a single abing frig with one web on it should be hard to hit with a cruiser, otherwise we are back to the days of web=dead frig if in range. I do think that a dual webbed TP'd frig should be bbq'd pretty fast by a cruier/BC, which it will unless they counter that with the apropriate ewar.
Claiming that TD's are OP'd is something I disagree with, since it doesnt break locks, and only affect 1/3d of the wepsys's it should be way stronger against that (i still find TD's abit underpowered, 1 max skilled TD on a bonused ship should render any turret ship useless unless its dual TC'd or shooting a target lit up by max skilled TP'ing bonused recon).
And to reiterate, this whould have been the case using pretty much any ewar system, had he had 7 jammers on him he wouldnt have had lock the entire fight, damps are not applicable cause they were fit as a gang to get under the guns, had they been range dictating they would have wtfbbqd him with ranged frig funs, mwds and 7 damps as well.
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The PitBoss
Caldari
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 18:30:00 -
[52]
Edited by: The PitBoss on 25/11/2008 18:31:44
Originally by: nether void
Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad.
I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly.
Seems simple enough.
EXACTLY ... Ug has probably contributed more to pvp and this game than MOST of the douche bags in this thread that are talking shyte ...
Thank-You,
The Pitboss
Signatures by: Kalen Vox |
Trellish
Ten Ton Hammer
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2008.11.25 19:16:00 -
[53]
Yeah, the expectation that he should have died but should have been able to take a couple with him seems fully reasonable to me, and even a necessary element for solo pvp to survive. (and no, I don't think solo PVP is dead... just sometimes hard to find)
I wonder if CCP would consider implementing stacking onto multiple ewar modules applied to the same target? Just as we have stacks to when we fit multiple modules that affect the same element on our ships, perhaps stacks when multiple modules that affect the same element are applied onto our ships by enemy targets? I dunno... that would probably affect a lot of things... what do you guys think? Still, it would make intelligent fitting in a fleet more important... those last tracking disruptors would do effectively nothing.
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Myra Rodan
Minmatar
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.11.25 19:20:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Myra Rodan on 25/11/2008 19:23:55
Originally by: Xofii
Yes I understood the point he made, and had they not used the most apropriate force-multiplier in this case he would have taken 1 or two with him (i hope). I do think that a single abing frig with one web on it should be hard to hit with a cruiser, otherwise we are back to the days of web=dead frig if in range. I do think that a dual webbed TP'd frig should be bbq'd pretty fast by a cruier/BC, which it will unless they counter that with the apropriate ewar.
Claiming that TD's are OP'd is something I disagree with, since it doesnt break locks, and only affect 1/3d of the wepsys's it should be way stronger against that (i still find TD's abit underpowered, 1 max skilled TD on a bonused ship should render any turret ship useless unless its dual TC'd or shooting a target lit up by max skilled TP'ing bonused recon).
And to reiterate, this whould have been the case using pretty much any ewar system, had he had 7 jammers on him he wouldnt have had lock the entire fight, damps are not applicable cause they were fit as a gang to get under the guns, had they been range dictating they would have wtfbbqd him with ranged frig funs, mwds and 7 damps as well.
This. OP even said: Originally by: Ugluuk
After they put a ton of tracking disruptors on me...
There were 7 (?) of them, specifically fit to take on ships with turrets (like yours), and you are surprised you couldn't hit them? Even before the patch, you shouldn't have been able to hit anything except that first dual webbed / TPd ship.
Also, why not use a Hurricane if you wanted to armor tank? I assume it was insured since you were planning to lose it? It has a better slot layout for it, and you would have benefited much more from the damage bonus it gets (especially since you only got one shot off) than the ignored bonus on the ship you did use. You even could have used the same tank setup and just added Gyros to increase tracking and damage that little bit more.
Selling and delivering boosters anywhere in Eve. |
Clone 666
Project Nemesis
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Posted - 2008.11.25 20:10:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Clone 666 on 25/11/2008 20:11:45
Originally by: The PitBoss
Edited by: The PitBoss on 25/11/2008 18:31:44
Originally by: nether void
Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad.
I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly.
Seems simple enough.
EXACTLY ... Ug has probably contributed more to pvp and this game than MOST of the douche bags in this thread that are talking shyte ...
The fact is he engaged a well prepared fleet of AF's and got owned as he should. He should have known better being such a superior pvp pilot. FFS gangs of rookie ships have been doing the same thing for years. Nerf teh rookie ships! PROOF --->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umiK-1iIL2s
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Friedrick Psitalon
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 21:25:00 -
[56]
Originally by: The PitBoss
Edited by: The PitBoss on 25/11/2008 18:31:44
Originally by: nether void
Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad.
I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly.
Seems simple enough.
EXACTLY ... Ug has probably contributed more to pvp and this game than MOST of the douche bags in this thread that are talking shyte ...
Who he is has absolutely no relevance on whether his arguments are valid.
One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced."
A whole lot of "elite" pvp'rs sure would be put out if one player could somehow fit a standard ship such that they could tank the damage of seven players - but somehow, your tracking should be able to "tank" the "damage" of seven disruptions. Right. ;)
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Plim
Gallente
Oursulaert Technology Institute
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Posted - 2008.11.25 21:52:00 -
[57]
Tracking disrupters are certainly ovrpowered. You put a single one on a ship with no bonus for it with a script and the difference is huge. They should get nerfed for ships which don't get the bonus.
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Failing to understand your crazy epicycles since 2003. |
FOl2TY8
Scorpion's Sting
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Posted - 2008.11.25 22:35:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon
Who he is has absolutely no relevance on whether his arguments are valid.
One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced."
A whole lot of "elite" pvp'rs sure would be put out if one player could somehow fit a standard ship such that they could tank the damage of seven players - but somehow, your tracking should be able to "tank" the "damage" of seven disruptions. Right. ;)
I am relatively new to PVP but this sounds exactly right to me.
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The six paths and the four lives.... |
RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.26 00:01:00 -
[59]
Why so surprised when multiple TD's completely ruin your tracking? Sounds like people using their heads while OP is just complaining he got taken for a fool; QR changes aren't exactly tacit knowledge.
Besides which those AF pilots could well have just rocked up in BC's and BS and killed you even faster...
Where is the problem here?
Several players will always be able to defeat one unless exceptional circumstances or a rigged outcome is in place.
I don't want to set the world on fire |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon
One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced."
Good Post and i agree with this.
That case was a nice display of eves "Scissor Paper Stone" system. The assault frigates advantage is their low sig making it hard to get hit and on top of that they brought tracking disruptor, capitlaizing on their advantage.
A turretship against such a gang has no chance, where as other tactics not requiring guns or that much woudl succed.
It is exactly this what makes this patch so great and opens so many new ways to pvp where before you had alot less actions and counter actions going on.
Truth is Ugluuk, you brought a knife to a gunfight ;)
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Boosters and PirateProfessions
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