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Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.24 02:52:00 - [1] Edited by: Ugluuk on 24/11/2008 03:00:26 After loosing a electron blaster Thorax against a AF gang i decided to take a cyclone for a spin on my alt and get revenge. With dual webs,Target painter and armor tank on the cyclone i was ready to rock&own!! I have only moved 3 jumps before i meet the first AF gang..I let em aggro and unleash the super tactic on a Enyo.. First volleys smacks him into armor..Then it was time for their super tactic to outclass mine.. Tracking disrupting modules activates on me and destroys the fun completely.. After they put a ton of tracking disruptors on me i hit a dual webbed and target painted Enyo only 7 times in 112 shots.. Is this what CCP had in mind for the solo pvp`ers then im not quite understanding what intentions they had with this patch.. As possible solutions i can think of these tings: Nerf tracking disruptors to not fit on frigate class ships. Increase smartbomb range.. Add 2 more mid slots to big ships so we can fit more target painters and webs.. Increased sig radius on frigs.. If anyone have ideas on how to survive such gangs like the one i met post it here so we can discuss it.. Edit: It should be mentioned that im a -10 pilot and i dont operate in 0.0 where solo pvp has more options with f.ex recon ships.. This is a typical low sec syndrome to meet AF gangs looking for flashy people..
Graalum Interstellar eXodus Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.24 03:05:00 - [2] pepole are flying assault frigs now?
Sacul Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.24 03:15:00 - [3] Originally by: Graalum pepole are flying assault frigs now? Idea is low sig radius and ab. Looks ok on paper but i have been seeing allot of enyo's in 0.0 aswell but allmost all of them die every time. Ev0ke is flying af's allot. Sorry to hear ugluuk but u should know that solo pvp has been dead since late 2006. I think you are one of the last veterans to still do it....well did it. CCP says they want to break up large gangs but all they do encourages blobbing.
Vanderie Amarr Athanasius Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.24 03:24:00 - [4] Edited by: Vanderie on 24/11/2008 03:24:54 No offense Ugluuk as I have a lot of respect for you/your corp in general, but I almost never see a solo BYDI member. Every time I have seen you/your corp in local (or fought on a few occasions) it has been a battleship blob with ECM support. This may not count for you (and if it doesn't I apologize), but I can only venture a guess due to the fact that you are the CEO of the corp. Yes, frigates are very powerful now, but they are not the end-all be-all. Use neutralizers, use drones or smartbombs. I took on a FW gang a few days ago with my absolution; they consisted of a hawk, a harpy, a kitsune, a thorax and a drake. I picked my targets carefully and dropped the kitsune first. Once he was gone, it was a matter of burning away from them with my MWD (yes, I still fit an MWD because it is useful in certain situations) and dropped them because I kept them level with my tracking. And I was also under sentry fire the whole time; my corp mate only showed up when the drake was the last target standing. You could also start using frigates yourself; try an ishkur or a sentinel or a wolf. It's about adapting to the new kind of combat that has presented itself with this patch, not about giving up because you got killed by a swarm of assault frigates (yes I read your other post about stepping down). As for getting killed, you may have tried tracking computers instead of webs. Webs are nice, but with them slowing the target so little it may be that having better tracking is the new web. Concerning your ideas for a fix: Make it so frigates can't fit tracking disruptors: This would invalidate the sentinel, and would destroy a perfectly legitimate tactic. If your target is fitting tracking disruptors, fit tracking computers. Increase smartbomb range: I could see it working, but at the same time it would boost smartbombing gatecamps that don't need boosting. Adding 2 more slots: I think it is about choosing your current slots more carefully, not having CCP add more because one can't think of a compromise. Increasing frigate signature radius: This I kind of agree on, but it also runs the risk of nerfing the class back into oblivion again. Again, I suggest fitting tracking computers to compensate for the issues with tracking. Try adapting your tactics. If your basis that frigates are overpowered is based on the statement that you couldn't kill a group of them with your cyclone solo, there is not much of a basis to go on. I am, however, open for discussion on the matter. -Vanderie
Pollux21 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.11.24 03:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Ugluuk Edited by: Ugluuk on 24/11/2008 03:00:26 After loosing a electron blaster Thorax against a AF gang i decided to take a cyclone for a spin on my alt and get revenge. With dual webs,Target painter and armor tank on the cyclone i was ready to rock&own!! I have only moved 3 jumps before i meet the first AF gang..I let em aggro and unleash the super tactic on a Enyo.. First volleys smacks him into armor..Then it was time for their super tactic to outclass mine.. Tracking disrupting modules activates on me and destroys the fun completely.. After they put a ton of tracking disruptors on me i hit a dual webbed and target painted Enyo only 7 times in 112 shots.. Is this what CCP had in mind for the solo pvp`ers then im not quite understanding what intentions they had with this patch.. As possible solutions i can think of these tings: Nerf tracking disruptors to not fit on frigate class ships. Increase smartbomb range.. Add 2 more mid slots to big ships so we can fit more target painters and webs.. Increased sig radius on frigs.. If anyone have ideas on how to survive such gangs like the one i met post it here so we can discuss it.. Edit: It should be mentioned that im a -10 pilot and i dont operate in 0.0 where solo pvp has more options with f.ex recon ships.. This is a typical low sec syndrome to meet AF gangs looking for flashy people.. that thorax... this one??? http://prons.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=3744 you probably wouldnt be so down if you hadnt trimarked that thorax tbh...
Wusti The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.24 03:45:00 - [6] Swings and roundabouts I think mate. I kind of agree with the thinking that a solo BC probably shouldn't have that much chance against a well-flown frigate pack. AF's were nerfed for so long, but an absolute ton of fun to get about in (like alot of peeps probably, Harpy was my first half-decent PvP ship which a flew loads while I finally got the skills to do justice to a HAC). I think I'm going to wait till the dust settles on this patch before I judge - and as usual, I like some stuff, and detest others - but thats the way of it I'm afraid. _______________________ Welcome to The New Era
Revocks Bishop Amarr Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.11.24 03:52:00 - [7] I just got back from the third time of me seeing "Twilight" at the movie theater, and I come home to this? This makes me incredibly sad. I understand your logic in the fact that you couldn't 'wtfpwn' a whole fleet by yourself, but I appreciate your input on nerfing everyone else so that you can go back to being a 'pwner.' I along with the rest of my comrades will swiftly inform our CSM friend of this request, and he will get back to you. Until then, try not to take on a whole fleet with an overpriced cruiser. This is only a recommendation.
Radcjk Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.11.24 06:00:00 - [8] 5 good frigates could kill a t1 cruiser cruiser / BC well before this patch. Not to be a ****, but this really didn't boost the frig blob into being any stronger than it was before, it just made the AF worth flying in the frig blob.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.24 08:44:00 - [9] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 08:46:59 Originally by: Pollux21 Originally by: Ugluuk Edited by: Ugluuk on 24/11/2008 03:00:26 After loosing a electron blaster Thorax against a AF gang i decided to take a cyclone for a spin on my alt and get revenge. With dual webs,Target painter and armor tank on the cyclone i was ready to rock&own!! I have only moved 3 jumps before i meet the first AF gang..I let em aggro and unleash the super tactic on a Enyo.. First volleys smacks him into armor..Then it was time for their super tactic to outclass mine.. Tracking disrupting modules activates on me and destroys the fun completely.. After they put a ton of tracking disruptors on me i hit a dual webbed and target painted Enyo only 7 times in 112 shots.. Is this what CCP had in mind for the solo pvp`ers then im not quite understanding what intentions they had with this patch.. As possible solutions i can think of these tings: Nerf tracking disruptors to not fit on frigate class ships. Increase smartbomb range.. Add 2 more mid slots to big ships so we can fit more target painters and webs.. Increased sig radius on frigs.. If anyone have ideas on how to survive such gangs like the one i met post it here so we can discuss it.. Edit: It should be mentioned that im a -10 pilot and i dont operate in 0.0 where solo pvp has more options with f.ex recon ships.. This is a typical low sec syndrome to meet AF gangs looking for flashy people.. that thorax... this one??? http://prons.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=3744 you probably wouldnt be so down if you hadnt trimarked that thorax tbh... Meh, you don't get it. First of all Ugluuk trimarking his Thorax's is no big deal ... really. Second of all, i can count 4 AF's that could webb there, and i bet half of them had warp scramblers on. What this means is that considering the limited EHP - even with trimarks, lack of utility slots on the Thorax, and the fact that warp scrambler and webb efficiency scale with the nr of them fitted around the gang, he had no freaking chance. Add to this the effectiveness of tracking disruptors on them now, and you got a recipe of death for most solo pvp-ers in cruiser/bc/bs class vs the AF gang - agility and speed boost of said AF's didn't help the solo-er either. What this means for the solo-er is that the range of gangs that you can take on is even more limited, to the point where it's not even worth undocking. Originally by: Radcjk 5 good frigates could kill a t1 cruiser cruiser / BC well before this patch. Not to be a ****, but this really didn't boost the frig blob into being any stronger than it was before, it just made the AF worth flying in the frig blob. Only if the t1 cruiser is a noob. PS: I love the smack directed to Ugluuk for flying an expensive t1 cruiser when his beef has nothing to do with this, something you can see for yourself by checking his losses. --- I smack just for myself. [orange]Your signature is too large. Please resi
pipvac D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.24 08:52:00 - [10] Having been playing Eve for over five years now, I can certainly empathise with Ugluuk. The sense of frustration, and angst as you see the tactics that you have trained for (invested subscription time in) invalidated by the most recent patch. Infuriating. At the same time, Vanderie makes some valid observations on how to adapt to the changes... and there are many more besides (not going to share...). I've slowly and painfully learnt to enjoy the changes and experiment with new setups. EFT and the test server are now essential testing tools, rather than querky playgrounds for people who don't want to play the 'real' game. I understand your pain Ugluuk. Enjoy your break and 'go-slow'. No doubt you with your experience, you will come back stronger. Desperately seeking originality since the first "can I have your stuff" since 2003.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.24 09:53:00 - [11] Well yes and no, thing is the "HA, I brought a bigger ship, now you're all gonna die!" isn't (or shouldn't) be the EVE way. Going for a bigger hull isn't automatically the best answer nowadays, besides a single player SHOULD go down against a wolfpack who invested in ECM (of sorts). While I understand that for a solo player that sucks a bit I am happy CCP made this bold move (which incidentally helps the lower SP chars, which I'm sure was an expected side effect). This is an MMO which (always has, more than other MMO's) relies on teamwork.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.11.24 09:56:00 - [12] The frigate class has become stupidly powerful that's for sure. A BC versus an AF gang should still lose, but at the cost of one or two hostiles. Afterburner's and tracking disruptor's now mitigate pretty much all incoming damage making a squad of 2-3+ frigates with their many shared midslots damn near impossible to kill unless you yourself fly a frigate. There is no way to adapt as suggested. There is no module or skill that magically add 200% tracking to guns or extra midslots to your ship. And don't start saying "use neuts" because they don't do squat to a frigate unless you have 3-4 to stagger. Drones are pretty useless as well against the AF wolfpack as they will last less than 20seconds. I am all for BS and to a lesser degree BC having to rely on smaller support to keep 'safe' but current situation has the cruiser class needing the same support which is pretty silly. Spending 95% of my time in frigates as a FW pilot I have had ample opportunity to see just how insanely powerful an orbiting frig is. A Stabber can not even deplete the shields of a Punisher before dying .. (Amarr Victor!, by the way )
Djan Anaplian Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.24 10:49:00 - [13] Edited by: Djan Anaplian on 24/11/2008 10:49:28 Meh, your right of course; but 70 pages of 'DON'T NERF NANOS' didn't make ccp listen - so i doubt anything else will.
Marc Isabel Noir.	Posted - 2008.11.24 11:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida There is no way to adapt as suggested. How about 'start doing teamwork yourself'? With comparable numbers, the AF gang will get creamed. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.24 11:42:00 - [15] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 11:48:43 Originally by: Marc Isabel Originally by: Hirana Yoshida There is no way to adapt as suggested. How about 'start doing teamwork yourself'? With comparable numbers, the AF gang will get creamed. You don't get the thread. Some of us don't like having this 'don't undock unless your in a gang of 5+' playing style, and have fun going out solo, even if it means lots and lots and lots of losses; because you will lose and to compensate for numbers you need lots of practice and lots of isk invested. For many going out in a gang of 10 just so that they can be on the combined kill of some poor bugger who was jumping through stargates at the worst of moments and lolling in corp chat about how great you are is not fun. The proof that some ppl enjoy this comes from ccp, either in the form of lying comments of 'solo pvp should always be viable' or the power of 2 offer that they released recently. Ppl played like this, ppl enjoyed playing like this, and some of those ppl left. --- I smack just for myself. [orange]Your signature is too large. Please resi
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.24 11:47:00 - [16] The only way to adapt to this bullcrap is to fly with others in pvp but frankly I have also been playing for a long time and for the last couple of years I enjoyed soloing when ever I felt like a spin rather than having to log in and wait for an 'op' ... It is CCPs game and they can take it wherever they like I guess. At present I am paying them subscriptionmoney but I am only logging in now and then to chamge skills...Most likely I am also going the way of the DoDo... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:00:00 - [17] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 24/11/2008 12:01:16 Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 11:48:43 Originally by: Marc Isabel Originally by: Hirana Yoshida There is no way to adapt as suggested. How about 'start doing teamwork yourself'? With comparable numbers, the AF gang will get creamed. You don't get the thread. Some of us don't like having this 'don't undock unless your in a gang of 5+' playing style, and have fun going out solo, even if it means lots and lots and lots of losses; because you will lose and to compensate for numbers you need lots of practice and lots of isk invested. For many going out in a gang of 10 just so that they can be on the combined kill of some poor bugger who was jumping through stargates at the worst of moments and lolling in corp chat about how great you are is not fun. The proof that some ppl enjoy this comes from ccp, either in the form of lying comments of 'solo pvp should always be viable' or the power of 2 offer that they released recently. Ppl played like this, ppl enjoyed playing like this, and some of those ppl left. eve is harsh, deal with it. so what the OP is telling us, he engaged an AS gang ALONE, he knew it and he was in a larger slower ship and died. lets say he fought ~5 AS, that would be about the dps that a bs (without its drones) can do. he had a 4 slot armor tank on his cyclone. they were faster, smaller and had the right fitting to fight him. so the AS gang had all advantages on their side and thats why they are uber? if he had a proper tank he could probably deagress and jump/dock
Marc Isabel Noir.	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:14:00 - [18] Edited by: Marc Isabel on 24/11/2008 12:13:55 Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 11:48:43 You don't get the thread. Some of us don't like having this 'don't undock unless your in a gang of 5+' playing style, and have fun going out solo, even if it means lots and lots and lots of losses; because you will lose and to compensate for numbers you need lots of practice and lots of isk invested. For many going out in a gang of 10 just so that they can be on the combined kill of some poor bugger who was jumping through stargates at the worst of moments and lolling in corp chat about how great you are is not fun. So you're deliberately choosing to fly at a strategic disadvantage (being outnumbered) to face interesting, steep tactical challenges? Being motivated by the possibility of an improbable tactical victory, beating the odds, getting your yarr on? Then why bother complaining about an increased strategic disadvantage? It'll only give you more bragging rights when you do beat the odds. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 24/11/2008 12:01:16 Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 11:48:43 Originally by: Marc Isabel Originally by: Hirana Yoshida There is no way to adapt as suggested. How about 'start doing teamwork yourself'? With comparable numbers, the AF gang will get creamed. You don't get the thread. Some of us don't like having this 'don't undock unless your in a gang of 5+' playing style, and have fun going out solo, even if it means lots and lots and lots of losses; because you will lose and to compensate for numbers you need lots of practice and lots of isk invested. For many going out in a gang of 10 just so that they can be on the combined kill of some poor bugger who was jumping through stargates at the worst of moments and lolling in corp chat about how great you are is not fun. The proof that some ppl enjoy this comes from ccp, either in the form of lying comments of 'solo pvp should always be viable' or the power of 2 offer that they released recently. Ppl played like this, ppl enjoyed playing like this, and some of those ppl left. eve is harsh, deal with it. so what the OP is telling us, he engaged an AS gang ALONE, he knew it and he was in a larger slower ship and died. lets say he fought ~5 AS, that would be about the dps that a bs (without its drones) can do. he had a 4 slot armor tank on his cyclone. they were faster, smaller and had the right fitting to fight him. so the AS gang had all advantages on their side and thats why they are uber? if he had a proper tank he could probably deagress and jump/dock Please stopadding ignorant posts here. There colelctive DPS is irrelevant, as you kill them it drops... Tank,deagress and jump dock? Who do you think you are talking to? A mission runner that decided to see if he can play a bit with an incoming gank? This epitomises what I hate about this patch the most: It legitimises all the nooblar part time pvpers/Weekend warrior types.... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 24/11/2008 12:01:16 Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 11:48:43 Originally by: Marc Isabel Originally by: Hirana Yoshida There is no way to adapt as suggested. How about 'start doing teamwork yourself'? With comparable numbers, the AF gang will get creamed. You don't get the thread. Some of us don't like having this 'don't undock unless your in a gang of 5+' playing style, and have fun going out solo, even if it means lots and lots and lots of losses; because you will lose and to compensate for numbers you need lots of practice and lots of isk invested. For many going out in a gang of 10 just so that they can be on the combined kill of some poor bugger who was jumping through stargates at the worst of moments and lolling in corp chat about how great you are is not fun. The proof that some ppl enjoy this comes from ccp, either in the form of lying comments of 'solo pvp should always be viable' or the power of 2 offer that they released recently. Ppl played like this, ppl enjoyed playing like this, and some of those ppl left. eve is harsh, deal with it. so what the OP is telling us, he engaged an AS gang ALONE, he knew it and he was in a larger slower ship and died. lets say he fought ~5 AS, that would be about the dps that a bs (without its drones) can do. he had a 4 slot armor tank on his cyclone. they were faster, smaller and had the right fitting to fight him. so the AS gang had all advantages on their side and thats why they are uber? if he had a proper tank he could probably deagress and jump/dock It`s not what i attacked with that matters here..If you read the whole post i was after a quick kill or 2 before dying myself..That is why i set up the ship that way.. What matters here is that the tracking disruptors combined with sig radius on a AF makes it almost impossible to hit unless you fit frigate guns.. The point is: I had the assault frig dual webbed and target painted..And dual 180 autocannons have good tracking.. I still missed when doing all i could to be able to hit..
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:18:00 - [21] You mean you can't pwn 5 people in a row anymore and feel uber about it?
Friedrick Psitalon The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:31:00 - [22] Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 24/11/2008 12:33:38 Ah, so it's tracking disruptors that will feel the nerf until they're made useless like Damps this time. It's the age-old complaint of the high SP: "I can't instantly annihilate the low SP by myself, therefore X EWAR module they used to tilt the field must be broken." A little EWAR levels the playing field between high SP and low SP. Enough EWAR renders one player of any skill totally and completely impotent to a group of other players. EWAR isn't leaving EVE. You ran into a group of players who - either by choice or intent - were flying ships that work very well with this basic principle that you already knew. Accept it and move on.
Marc Isabel Noir.	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:32:00 - [23] Edited by: Marc Isabel on 24/11/2008 12:33:50 Edited by: Marc Isabel on 24/11/2008 12:32:50 Originally by: Ugluuk The point is: I had the assault frig dual webbed and target painted..And dual 180 autocannons have good tracking.. I still missed when doing all i could to be able to hit.. The whole point of EW is being able to effectively hinder a limited amount of targets. Logically, superior numbers with appropriate EW fitting should be able to hold a single target. You faced a signature radius tanked fleet, with multiple EW mods to hinder a limited number of gun-wielding targets fighting small sig radiusses. A setup that should win strategically. It's not an I-win button, because it would have been a sub-optimal fit against non-gunnery boats or equal numbers. Imagine you had multiple racial ECM's on your ship, perhaps combined with reduced sensor strength, or massively reduced targeting range. You'd be handicapped too. When you're outnumbered, well-chosen EW just means 'run like hell'. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:54:00 - [24] This: "If your basis that frigates are overpowered is based on the statement that you couldn't kill a group of them with your cyclone solo, there is not much of a basis to go on. " There are entire divergent viewpoints colliding in many threads like this one. I'm assume "bigger = better" is one of those views. Until now "big = better" was a major "tactic" in low-sec and to some extent in 0.0. QR enforcing another view, basically idea of different ship classes. Different ship classes with cons and pros. QR requires a conscious selection of proper weapon system to counter another one. Cookie cutter solo pwnmobiles are now history. Those facts may not fit some pilots view how eve mechanics should work and thus generating frustration. Btw. I know a good Vexor pilot, who is virtually murdering frigates. Maybe Cyclone just isn't perfect for this task ??
Mendolorian Girl Caldari The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.24 13:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Afterburner's and tracking disruptor's now mitigate pretty much all incoming damage making a squad of 2-3+ frigates with their many shared midslots damn near impossible to kill unless you yourself fly a frigate. There were what.. 5 AFs in this gang? So if each had a TD and an AF then yup.. you can't do anything against that. What if they'd been flying with Multi-Freq's instead? Yup, you'd still have died. If you're in a battle where you don't have the advantage you've done something wrong.. whether that advantage is superior dps, ewar, tank, it's all the same thing. You picked a fight with the wrong guys, deal with it. Originally by: Dirty Piwat Oh noes.. nerf Ewar, it means I can't kill stuffs :( Gotta love Darwin.. adapt or die :)
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.24 13:21:00 - [26] Originally by: Marc Isabel Edited by: Marc Isabel on 24/11/2008 12:13:55 Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 11:48:43 You don't get the thread. Some of us don't like having this 'don't undock unless your in a gang of 5+' playing style, and have fun going out solo, even if it means lots and lots and lots of losses; because you will lose and to compensate for numbers you need lots of practice and lots of isk invested. For many going out in a gang of 10 just so that they can be on the combined kill of some poor bugger who was jumping through stargates at the worst of moments and lolling in corp chat about how great you are is not fun. So you're deliberately choosing to fly at a strategic disadvantage (being outnumbered) to face interesting, steep tactical challenges? Being motivated by the possibility of an improbable tactical victory, beating the odds, getting your yarr on? Then why bother complaining about an increased strategic disadvantage? It'll only give you more bragging rights when you do beat the odds. Yeah. Some ppl like going against the odds, but playing Sisif is not all that fun, there's a line there, CCP crossed it. --- I smack just for myself. [orange]Your signature is too large. Please resi
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.24 13:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Mendolorian Girl Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Afterburner's and tracking disruptor's now mitigate pretty much all incoming damage making a squad of 2-3+ frigates with their many shared midslots damn near impossible to kill unless you yourself fly a frigate. There were what.. 5 AFs in this gang? So if each had a TD and an AF then yup.. you can't do anything against that. What if they'd been flying with Multi-Freq's instead? Yup, you'd still have died. If you're in a battle where you don't have the advantage you've done something wrong.. whether that advantage is superior dps, ewar, tank, it's all the same thing. You picked a fight with the wrong guys, deal with it. Originally by: Dirty Piwat Oh noes.. nerf Ewar, it means I can't kill stuffs :( Gotta love Darwin.. adapt or die :) 7 actually, 3 wolfs, 2 ishkur, vengeance and harpy. --- I smack just for myself. [orange]Your signature is too large. Please resi
Aravorn Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.24 13:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Graalum pepole are flying assault frigs now? Deny No one is flying assault frigates
Johnny Gurkha Death Cult Covenant	Posted - 2008.11.24 13:42:00 - [29] **** happens tbh.. if your not enjoying it then rightly you stop playing, I solo alot myself and although targets are getting scarce I'm still enjoying it. Go figure...
Orar Ironfist Digital assassins	Posted - 2008.11.24 14:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Djan Anaplian Edited by: Djan Anaplian on 24/11/2008 10:49:28 Meh, your right of course; but 70 pages of 'DON'T NERF NANOS' didn't make ccp listen - so i doubt anything else will. /signed
Winidin Minmatar Out-Rage	Posted - 2008.11.24 15:58:00 - [31] 2 Things: 1) Tracking computer would probably do you better than TP, and did you have missiles fit? 2) You can manually alter the movement of your own ship to match the orbit of your target so reduce their angular to you...it's a ***** but doable...though to be honest I've never really tried it...haven't had enough situations with tracking disrupts to need to. If I ever duel my friend's pilgrim again in my rupture I'll probably have to... P.S. Armor tanking cyclone?
Pollux21 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.11.24 17:01:00 - [32] Originally by: Ugluuk Edited by: Ugluuk on 24/11/2008 03:00:26 With dual webs,Target painter and armor tank on the cyclone i was ready to rock&own!! how to solo pvp: 1)buy a crap ship 2)fit it so that it utilizes little to none of its bonuses 3)find a small gang that came out looking just for you 4)sit back and collect your insurance 5)blame ccp
scrambled	Posted - 2008.11.24 17:36:00 - [33] AF gangs with TD's are indeed a pain in the ass recently; I got my ass handed to me by 7 AF's against my Harbinger in much the same fashion; TD + webs + 2pt scram = no mwd, no speed, and not hitting jack **** even with 2 tracking computers going. It's interesting to see though that AF's are slowly becoming useful.
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.24 18:02:00 - [34] You went out solo looking for a AF gang to fight in a battlecruiser? OMG thats not good at all. But hmm some kind of Lol-bomb set up whould rule i guess against small ship gangs.
DeathsEmbrace Minmatar The Renegades Asylum DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.11.24 18:11:00 - [35] Being a solo pvper your always at a disadvantage these days. Having flown with bydi, i have full respect for there prowess. However, to put a little perspective to the ops post an ab hac can out run a bs's tracking, and out tank bs missles. (Vaga can still solo the bs's) The patch has hit the larger classes harder that the smaller ones. Af's are very much the ship of choice for packs which is fun. But for those of us that do solo (because we want the challenge of it) its made a area of pvp that was hard to do to begin with much harder. Tryng to find good solo fights was hard work before, now its very hard as anyone with 3mil sp can fly a af, eaf. Those that have dedicated time and effort to specialise in tactics that they enjoy have yet again been slapped in the face by ccp's patches. To the op, get a interdictor. TC's can help a bc but theres nothing in eve like a dictor for screwing a frig gang over. To live is to die, and to die is to give life. Thus pain is a form of euphoria.
Xofii Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.24 18:24:00 - [36] I understand your main point, but disagree. TD's are a very specific ewar, it doesnt break locks and only applies to 1/3d of the weapons systems, as such it should be much more powerful against that weap sys which designed for. A group of frigs should lose a few against a competent opponent, however not if they apply the correct dmg mitigations techniques. A well balanced gang with specific ewar vs your ship? Had they had an ECM'ing EAF with racial jammers as well on all the AF's using a minnie jammer, you wouldn't have had lock during the entire fight. Would that be any better? Ewar is a force-multiplier, and when allready outnumbered that means you were infact facing an even larger gang. You can allmost say you engaged a 12 man gang and got outdpsed faster than you could bring anyone down with you. Af's are still not as good as they should be, they are a niche ship still and as such they should excell in the environment where they work. Against frig>->bc sized ships that can't dictate range. Had you jumped into a gang of 7 other thoraxes and expected to bring one or two down with you before you die? AF's are roughly equivalent with cruisers in which role they fill but most often worse. Now atleast (new sigrad)there are circumstance where you arent better off just using a cruiser instead, that is a good thing. tl;dr all well balanced groups as well as all niche-ships should vastly outperform other ships used in their respective areas. You got unlucky in what the opposing gang brought nothing more nothing less.
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.11.24 19:32:00 - [37] Originally by: Xofii A well balanced gang with specific ewar vs your ship? Had they had an ECM'ing EAF with racial jammers as well on all the AF's using a minnie jammer, you wouldn't have had lock during the entire fight. Would that be any better? This. So a group of frigates get under your guns, hold you down, and disrupt your weapons so you cannot track. Or, they could have a single Griffin and permajam your Cyclone with it's useless sensor strength. TD's have less range, impact fewer ships, and still allow for some shots to land where as jamming means you cannot do anything for the entire fight. I fail to see what is wrong with Tracking Disruptors. If you are unhappy with EWAR, you need to start with other ships. Also, it's common knowledge that fitting neuts / NOS has become more important in your defense. Fitting 2 medium neuts meant you could have picked your targets, neut'd those TD'ing you, and continued on. Let me guess, your highs were all weapons?
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.11.24 19:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Winidin 2 Things: 1) Tracking computer would probably do you better than TP, and did you have missiles fit? 2) You can manually alter the movement of your own ship to match the orbit of your target so reduce their angular to you...it's a ***** but doable...though to be honest I've never really tried it...haven't had enough situations with tracking disrupts to need to. If I ever duel my friend's pilgrim again in my rupture I'll probably have to... P.S. Armor tanking cyclone? P.S.S. You do not know much about the tracking formula. A TP will provide a equal benefit than a TC with a tracking script, and if you have skills trained, it's better. And I would assume that the AF gang had scrams and webs, making manual flying almost useless. Even if you landed a few good rounds, AF's would easily tank it.
Mentalman	Posted - 2008.11.24 22:24:00 - [39] The thing here is not that he attacked a bunch of AF`s in a cyclone and died.He wanted a few AF kills in a useless ship he had and fitted 2 webs and target painter to counter the insane tracking nerf. Because of the patch 2 webs and target painter is not enough anymore at times which i have to agree with the op is sad for the pvp.. And when you look at many of these ignorant people that comment in here you see that the few that agree with the op that tracking is out of order is the only ones doing active pvp in here.. The others can jump back into their AF and enjoy the one thing that CCP did wrong in this patch..
Marc Isabel Noir.	Posted - 2008.11.24 23:04:00 - [40] Originally by: Mentalman The thing here is not that he attacked a bunch of AF`s in a cyclone and died.He wanted a few AF kills in a useless ship he had and fitted 2 webs and target painter to counter the insane tracking nerf. Because of the patch 2 webs and target painter is not enough anymore at times which i have to agree with the op is sad for the pvp.. And when you look at many of these ignorant people that comment in here you see that the few that agree with the op that tracking is out of order is the only ones doing active pvp in here.. The others can jump back into their AF and enjoy the one thing that CCP did wrong in this patch.. Excellent. If all you "active PvP'ers" fail to adapt, motivated by some personal PvP pride artifact, killing you becomes all the easier :) Then again, you might start fitting appropriately sometime. Ohnoz! Being an "active PvP'er" myself, I'd probably respond the same way as you "active PvP'ers" do and stubbornly refuse to disengage and pick another fight. Conclusion? Adapt, or die. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Pollux21 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.11.24 23:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Marc Isabel Originally by: Mentalman Conclusion? Adapt, or die. Adapt. perfect response to the post tbh from a former war dec no less... cheers mate.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.24 23:39:00 - [42] Originally by: Mentalman The thing here is not that he attacked a bunch of AF`s in a cyclone and died.He wanted a few AF kills in a useless ship he had and fitted 2 webs and target painter to counter the insane tracking nerf. Because of the patch 2 webs and target painter is not enough anymore at times which i have to agree with the op is sad for the pvp.. And when you look at many of these ignorant people that comment in here you see that the few that agree with the op that tracking is out of order is the only ones doing active pvp in here.. The others can jump back into their AF and enjoy the one thing that CCP did wrong in this patch.. Would there have been ONE falcon he'd have died as well, same result.
Valius Altmer Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.24 23:54:00 - [43] Edited by: Valius Altmer on 24/11/2008 23:54:25 While I agree with the adapt or die scenario...I would also like to point out that there are some people like the op, that have been through hundreds of nerfs. Each time taking a specific tactic and invalidating it. Every Nerf bringing us closer and closer to the only thing that really makes a difference is how many people you bring. In this nerf, they have destroyed the close range ships. Even Bs vs Bs at close range has been affected. At this rate its only a matter of time before they make Jedi a starting class... edit: spelling
Villwrath Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.25 00:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Valius Altmer At this rate its only a matter of time before they make Jedi a starting class... No but in the next patch they are removing all skills and making it level based.
Baka Lakadaka Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.11.25 04:50:00 - [45] I don't mean to offend the OP, but this really smacks of "I lost a fight, CCP has to nerf everything related to it". ______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University. Now Recruiting.
Wusti The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.25 05:56:00 - [46] Jeez - you sure started something with this thread Ugluuk. I'd recommend alot of the peeps posting get a grip and take a deep breath. The guy likes to solo - his choice of playstyle. In this particular instance his comment is regarding TD's - and pre-patch much neglected module coming back into vogue. Personally I LIKE CCP making you think really hard about your fitting and knowing what sort of scenarios you can handle and what you can't. Quite frankly, the noobs will still be noobs are die in their thousands - god bless them! I liek frigates actually having a viable role these days. Maybe a different choice of BC would fared better and stood a chance of taking some of them down with him. It doesn't matter really. CCP is trying to re-balance - trying is good. Screwing up occassionally should be expected. I still think the jury is out on this one, but frigs are by no means the new win button. I also sympathise, having spent time cross-training for an Arazu when Falcon's weren't all that flash, only to have Falcon's OK again, and Arazu's not up to scratch - and now they're both pretty awesome - which makes me a happy camper NOW - but not then. It's a process guys - go with it, or don't - but flamers at least try and get the point of the guy's post eh? _______________________ Welcome to The New Era
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.25 07:44:00 - [47] The point of his post was to whine about how he got killed by several people who knew what they wre doing. Would he have seen TWO ships, a BC and a Rook on his scan he'd have realized it'd be pointless and not attack, instead he didn't realize that smaller ships now can easily kill larger ships (this is what we've been boasting about for years, size!=win right?). So, essentially he's whining about not undertanding the new rules and how he didn't get kills with his uberleet skills and 'experience'.
Adaera	Posted - 2008.11.25 11:54:00 - [48] Edited by: Adaera on 25/11/2008 11:54:33 Originally by: Ugluuk Edited by: Ugluuk on 24/11/2008 03:00:26 waaaaaaah, I wasn't able to hit frigates with medium guns because tracking disruptors do exactly what they're meant to do. I should be a solopwnmobile that can take on multiple ships at once and win. NERF NERF NERF Fixed.
Doktor Soet Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.11.25 13:54:00 - [49] Edited by: Doktor Soet on 25/11/2008 14:00:04 Edited by: Doktor Soet on 25/11/2008 13:57:04 well honestly i think too that something is a bit wrong since the last patch. what happend to me is somehow the most embarassing thing that has happend to me since i play, but i`m not whining about it and ask for a nerf or something like that. i just wanna say its a bit strange and perhaps a little adjustment would be something to think about. so pls stay polite and dont flame me (laughing is ok) :) ok what happend: rifter sitting peacefully at a high sec gate in low sec. i decide to engage with my phobos. the first volley was fine and i was able to hit but then it was nearly over. as he was just 3 or 4 days old he must have had an ab fitted. i had a web on him (he still did around 400) and my medium electron guns did no or really low dmg (to be say it clearer, he was never in danger to die). my pc then decided its time for a chrash so i died to a rifter and sentries. u can start laughing here, cause when i came back online i did it too again this is no whine!! i just find it a bit strange that the smallest medium blaster guns combined with a web cant track/hit a t1 frigate. in my opinion something is a bit wrong there. and no he had no tracking disruptor fitted cause i was scrammed and webbed... soet EDIT: i know now that next time i have to think bout different setups to counter this "problem" but again i think some things in the last patch have gonna a little too far...
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2008.11.25 17:49:00 - [50] Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad. I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly. Seems simple enough. --------------------
Xofii Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.25 18:08:00 - [51] Originally by: nether void Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad. I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly. Seems simple enough. Yes I understood the point he made, and had they not used the most apropriate force-multiplier in this case he would have taken 1 or two with him (i hope). I do think that a single abing frig with one web on it should be hard to hit with a cruiser, otherwise we are back to the days of web=dead frig if in range. I do think that a dual webbed TP'd frig should be bbq'd pretty fast by a cruier/BC, which it will unless they counter that with the apropriate ewar. Claiming that TD's are OP'd is something I disagree with, since it doesnt break locks, and only affect 1/3d of the wepsys's it should be way stronger against that (i still find TD's abit underpowered, 1 max skilled TD on a bonused ship should render any turret ship useless unless its dual TC'd or shooting a target lit up by max skilled TP'ing bonused recon). And to reiterate, this whould have been the case using pretty much any ewar system, had he had 7 jammers on him he wouldnt have had lock the entire fight, damps are not applicable cause they were fit as a gang to get under the guns, had they been range dictating they would have wtfbbqd him with ranged frig funs, mwds and 7 damps as well.
The PitBoss Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.25 18:30:00 - [52] Edited by: The PitBoss on 25/11/2008 18:31:44 Originally by: nether void Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad. I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly. Seems simple enough. EXACTLY ... Ug has probably contributed more to pvp and this game than MOST of the douche bags in this thread that are talking shyte ... Thank-You, The Pitboss Signatures by: Kalen Vox
Trellish Ten Ton Hammer Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.11.25 19:16:00 - [53] Yeah, the expectation that he should have died but should have been able to take a couple with him seems fully reasonable to me, and even a necessary element for solo pvp to survive. (and no, I don't think solo PVP is dead... just sometimes hard to find) I wonder if CCP would consider implementing stacking onto multiple ewar modules applied to the same target? Just as we have stacks to when we fit multiple modules that affect the same element on our ships, perhaps stacks when multiple modules that affect the same element are applied onto our ships by enemy targets? I dunno... that would probably affect a lot of things... what do you guys think? Still, it would make intelligent fitting in a fleet more important... those last tracking disruptors would do effectively nothing.
Myra Rodan Minmatar Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.11.25 19:20:00 - [54] Edited by: Myra Rodan on 25/11/2008 19:23:55 Originally by: Xofii Yes I understood the point he made, and had they not used the most apropriate force-multiplier in this case he would have taken 1 or two with him (i hope). I do think that a single abing frig with one web on it should be hard to hit with a cruiser, otherwise we are back to the days of web=dead frig if in range. I do think that a dual webbed TP'd frig should be bbq'd pretty fast by a cruier/BC, which it will unless they counter that with the apropriate ewar. Claiming that TD's are OP'd is something I disagree with, since it doesnt break locks, and only affect 1/3d of the wepsys's it should be way stronger against that (i still find TD's abit underpowered, 1 max skilled TD on a bonused ship should render any turret ship useless unless its dual TC'd or shooting a target lit up by max skilled TP'ing bonused recon). And to reiterate, this whould have been the case using pretty much any ewar system, had he had 7 jammers on him he wouldnt have had lock the entire fight, damps are not applicable cause they were fit as a gang to get under the guns, had they been range dictating they would have wtfbbqd him with ranged frig funs, mwds and 7 damps as well. This. OP even said: Originally by: Ugluuk After they put a ton of tracking disruptors on me... There were 7 (?) of them, specifically fit to take on ships with turrets (like yours), and you are surprised you couldn't hit them? Even before the patch, you shouldn't have been able to hit anything except that first dual webbed / TPd ship. Also, why not use a Hurricane if you wanted to armor tank? I assume it was insured since you were planning to lose it? It has a better slot layout for it, and you would have benefited much more from the damage bonus it gets (especially since you only got one shot off) than the ignored bonus on the ship you did use. You even could have used the same tank setup and just added Gyros to increase tracking and damage that little bit more. Selling and delivering boosters anywhere in Eve.
Clone 666 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.11.25 20:10:00 - [55] Edited by: Clone 666 on 25/11/2008 20:11:45 Originally by: The PitBoss Edited by: The PitBoss on 25/11/2008 18:31:44 Originally by: nether void Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad. I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly. Seems simple enough. EXACTLY ... Ug has probably contributed more to pvp and this game than MOST of the douche bags in this thread that are talking shyte ... The fact is he engaged a well prepared fleet of AF's and got owned as he should. He should have known better being such a superior pvp pilot. FFS gangs of rookie ships have been doing the same thing for years. Nerf teh rookie ships! PROOF --->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umiK-1iIL2s
Friedrick Psitalon The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.25 21:25:00 - [56] Originally by: The PitBoss Edited by: The PitBoss on 25/11/2008 18:31:44 Originally by: nether void Pretty much everyone is missing the point. He isn't complaining that he died. He expected to die. He's complaining cause he couldn't even take one of them with him, even with all that tracking support. I would agree that's pretty sad. I'm all for small ships being viable, but if you fly something bigger and more costly, it should be...more deadly. Cheap ships should be...less deadly. Seems simple enough. EXACTLY ... Ug has probably contributed more to pvp and this game than MOST of the douche bags in this thread that are talking shyte ... Who he is has absolutely no relevance on whether his arguments are valid. One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced." A whole lot of "elite" pvp'rs sure would be put out if one player could somehow fit a standard ship such that they could tank the damage of seven players - but somehow, your tracking should be able to "tank" the "damage" of seven disruptions. Right. ;)
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.25 21:52:00 - [57] Tracking disrupters are certainly ovrpowered. You put a single one on a ship with no bonus for it with a script and the difference is huge. They should get nerfed for ships which don't get the bonus. ---- Failing to understand your crazy epicycles since 2003.
FOl2TY8 Scorpion's Sting	Posted - 2008.11.25 22:35:00 - [58] Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon Who he is has absolutely no relevance on whether his arguments are valid. One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced." A whole lot of "elite" pvp'rs sure would be put out if one player could somehow fit a standard ship such that they could tank the damage of seven players - but somehow, your tracking should be able to "tank" the "damage" of seven disruptions. Right. ;) I am relatively new to PVP but this sounds exactly right to me. ---------- The six paths and the four lives....
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.26 00:01:00 - [59] Why so surprised when multiple TD's completely ruin your tracking? Sounds like people using their heads while OP is just complaining he got taken for a fool; QR changes aren't exactly tacit knowledge. Besides which those AF pilots could well have just rocked up in BC's and BS and killed you even faster... Where is the problem here? Several players will always be able to defeat one unless exceptional circumstances or a rigged outcome is in place. I don't want to set the world on fire
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.11.26 10:28:00 - [60] Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced." Good Post and i agree with this. That case was a nice display of eves "Scissor Paper Stone" system. The assault frigates advantage is their low sig making it hard to get hit and on top of that they brought tracking disruptor, capitlaizing on their advantage. A turretship against such a gang has no chance, where as other tactics not requiring guns or that much woudl succed. It is exactly this what makes this patch so great and opens so many new ways to pvp where before you had alot less actions and counter actions going on. Truth is Ugluuk, you brought a knife to a gunfight ;) - Boosters and PirateProfessions
Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.26 12:35:00 - [61] Edited by: Ugluuk on 26/11/2008 12:39:34 This isn`t about 7 AF taking me with tracking disruptors..It is about the power of 1 TD.. I tested it yesterday with a corp mate cruiser size vs cruiser size.. Test: Broadsword with 220`s vs Afterburner vaga with 1 TD, good skills and script.. I webbed him and he kept orbit at 5000m..I fired between 80-100 shots on him while moving manually aswell and barely scratched his ship at times.. I dont mind going to 0.0 to solo where it is easier but it would be nice to roam in low sec alone too.. Just gotta reply to the guy who commented about using a Hurricane to just tank and jump/dock if needed.. I have tried Hurricane..Met a Zealot,Omen and Osprey..Zealot ran but i got the 2 others off the gate when gate fired..Then a few AF landed and this is what happened: 1 Ishkur aggroed me with TD and web and the enyo with a scrambler..i webbed the ishkur and shot holes in the air most of the time and barely got him into armor after 2 min.. This ment that 1 AF destroyed my tracking so i couldn`t hit them.. 1 AF deactivated my mwd so i couldn`t get back to gate.. Ofc i could have used a AB..But the gates that used to drop people within 30km now drop em out to 58km so mwd is essential to tackle.. I could also used tracking computer but would had to sacrifise web or cap booster.. Or gyro`s but then id have to sacrifise resistance.. What happened next was that i sat there tanking them while shooting more holes in the air until they got tired and brought in a Pilgrim to cap me out.. I know CCP want to balance the game but this is not making it balanced.. Im a huge fan of frigs and love the Merlin and Rifter..But as the guy on another post said: A rifter should not been able to kill his sentry aggroed Phobos that ran out of cap because he couldn`t hit the Rifter..
waruiushiro	Posted - 2008.11.26 14:10:00 - [62] Edited by: waruiushiro on 26/11/2008 14:16:30 Drones, drones, drones. Nom nom nom dead frig. For killing AFs the Vexor is king. 1600mm plate, warrior IIs, small blasters/neuts, etc. Oh and just to be the 15th person to say, a T1 ship vs 5 T2 ships is not gonna win. If it could win, then something's wrong. You gotta plan for killing small ships. That Cyclone could have had 3 assault launchers and a full bay of Warrior IIs. That would have killed at least one frig. Sure it makes your overall DPS suck but you gotta choose, kill big stuff or little stuff.
Xofii Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.26 14:33:00 - [63] Originally by: Ugluuk ... Imo 1 TD should lead to a cruiser/bc not being able to hit a frig unless anti-ewar is applied, ie webs, TCs or painters. Ewar should allways be more powerful than a counter, ie one TD should lead to 1 cruiser not being able to hit another cruiser unless he paints/TD's/webs him with at least 2 of those. For a cruiser to hit an undersized target, then 3 should have to be applied, ie dual painted+webbed etc. If an AF can avoid damage with 1 TD when webbed and double painted then something is broken, otherwise it isnt. As I said TDs allready suffer from only affecting one weapon system as well as not breaking lock (harder to recloak a recon) hence it should be more powerful against that wep. sys. The issue in the past was that frigs allways got wtfbbqd if they got webbed, that sucked. Not sure how the med drone tracking nerf have hit but doesnt 5 hammer II's rip an AF asunder if its webbed and painted? Cruisers have better tank, dps and range, what role should a combat frig fill if it cannot engage larger targets WHEN applying the approriate ewar? That would render them useless. AFs have now finally gotten a role as under the gun tacklers with some dps, as opposed to the kiting tacklers that are ceptors. You cant hit a ceptor orbiting you at 5k+ at 24k either, its just that the role in which AFs and TD complement eachother has gotten stronger, imo that is a good thing. AFs have pretty much had their role reassigned, something which you did not take into consideration, would you have engaged 7 nano cruisers or even 7 ceptors and assumed you would kill a few of them pre-patch? If you say you could then I believe you and agree that the game has made your chosen nieche harder, if not my points stands. I can agree that the counters to frigs are becoming way to scarce, soon smartbombing them to oblivion is all that remain. Btw you could have killed a few in a dico ship if you got dual webs on prey :D Also one last quick question: if you had dual TCs and a painter, wouldnt atleast FMP's and most likely Heavy pulses hit an AF that has some range from you pretty hard even with one unbonused TD on you?
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.26 15:09:00 - [64] While I do empathize with your situation, there are a few things about the events that happened that were only logical: 1. EWAR > Straight up tank & Gank 2. Group > single player 3. Bigger does not necessarily equal better. Nothing about any of this is new. It's no different from when nanogangs would swarm a lone BS. If you want to be specifically fitted to take down AF gangs, you need to try different strategies and very specialized fits for it, just like you used to have to when you were fitting to counter nanofits. Hop in a frig yourself, or start flying drone boats with heavily tanked drones. Do you have any idea what a Myrm with swarms of warrior IIs would have done to that gang? Or hell, even a Vexor could take on 2-3 AFs at once if fitted properly. They were specifically fitted to exploit your weaknesses as a gunboat. If you refuse to adapt to cover those weaknesses, nothing will change for you, and that's always the way this game has been played. Overall, the only things that have changed with the last patch is that the FOTM pvp ships have become cheaper and more accessible to younger players. And I see nothing wrong with that, especially since it's bound to change again in a future patch.
Pollux21 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.11.26 17:44:00 - [65] As a fan of the AF gangs my corp likes to field ideally 6 Afs, 1 sentinal, 1 kitsune ( sure we could use a curse and rook/falcon but we like to keep the frig theme). We have yet to muster that full gang on our AF roams and we cant we tweak our setups to compensate. A perfect example being when we took down ugluuks triple trimarked thorax. We had 7 AFs and we had two of our guys replace their tackle with a TD. Now of course he was missing a lot but was landing the occasional hit. The sad truth of the matter is that he got wtf ganked though. Another sad truth... we came looking just for you ugluuk, maybe not you by name but you nonetheless. Now, if we had fit 2 of our guys up with multispecs would be having this same discussion about ecm? Oh and btw... about 30 mins before we found you we ran in to a rupture doing the same crap you were and he managed to take a harpy of ours with his assault missiles and drones. kudos to him for that and the fact that he was unrigged as opposed to triple trimarked. We done now?
Lord Morgo LEGI0N	Posted - 2008.11.26 18:32:00 - [66] My Advice: Neut the TD ship and pop it. Rinse, repeat.
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:16:00 - [67] Originally by: Lord Morgo My Advice: Neut the TD ship and pop it. Rinse, repeat. You ARE aware that TDs can be used from over 80km away on an unbonused ship, right? Kinda makes neuting it not an option if hes in a gang where others are tackling and he doesnt need to get in neut range
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:22:00 - [68] I've been using one on a rupture. Despite having no bonus for it, and no specific skill training for it, it's putting out -40.2% tracking with a script. That's a little silly for a single module on a ship with no bonus for it. ---- Failing to understand your crazy epicycles since 2003.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:56:00 - [69] Originally by: Plim I've been using one on a rupture. Despite having no bonus for it, and no specific skill training for it, it's putting out -40.2% tracking with a script. That's a little silly for a single module on a ship with no bonus for it. Till you meet a drone or missile ship, or one that does a decent amount of damage with drones/missiles while beign a turretship. Then it's a wasted slot.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:23:00 - [70] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Plim I've been using one on a rupture. Despite having no bonus for it, and no specific skill training for it, it's putting out -40.2% tracking with a script. That's a little silly for a single module on a ship with no bonus for it. Till you meet a drone or missile ship, or one that does a decent amount of damage with drones/missiles while beign a turretship. Then it's a wasted slot. That's why you don't use them against drone or missile ships. That would be stupid. If a large turret was overpowered, it would not be a reasoned argument to attack criticism of it, on the basis that it can't hit frigs. Turret ships are however heavily effected by just one, on a ship which has no bonus for it. Personally I don't think that a single module should be so powerful, without you having a ship bonus for it. Clearly the effect is also worsened now that webs are nerfed. ---- Failing to understand your crazy epicycles since 2003.
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:32:00 - [71] Originally by: Sacul Originally by: Graalum pepole are flying assault frigs now? Idea is low sig radius and ab. Looks ok on paper but i have been seeing allot of enyo's in 0.0 aswell but allmost all of them die every time. Ev0ke is flying af's allot. Sorry to hear ugluuk but u should know that solo pvp has been dead since late 2006. I think you are one of the last veterans to still do it....well did it. CCP says they want to break up large gangs but all they do encourages blobbing. This is what I have found has happenned. The gangs and ganking has become king since all of their patches and solo small gangs are a waste of space... Kind of make sit difficult for people like myself who want to get into PvP but dont have a lot of people in timezone who play at same time (Friends of mine are in 0.0 sec corp and a LOT more Sp's which I am still training to get even close to their level for survivability!) Regards, Jason Brisbane
Ka Jolo The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.27 04:43:00 - [72] I wonder how the OP would have fared with small guns instead of mediums to go with his target painter. Other T1 ships that could have fared well against an AF gang (taking some down as they died): Arbitrator, Vexor, Cerberus with precision lights, Myrmidon, Drake, OP's ship configured for anti-frigate tbh. Don't see how a swarm of AF's is any worse than a Falcon.
Doktor Soet Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:02:00 - [73] hmmm it seems that a lot of players like the changes that have been made close to 100%. i mean i`m not against all the changes that have been made and making webs for example a bit less usefull is ok. been said over and over again that frigs, af and ceptors r now a lot more useful. and in some ways i find that rly cool in some ways i hate those changes. i mean what i see right now is that when fitting a cruiser sized ship or a bigger one i have to keep meds free for a second web or a target painter. best would be to also have 1 or 2 highs free for neuts. i`m not sure if that really is what i want to have. cause in my opinion fittings have now become way more anti frig specialiced then it was ever before. one month ago it was nano gangs we had to think about and use specialized fittings and now its frig gangs. so has there rly changed that much? correct me if i`m seeing something completly wrong there but i`m just a casual player with half the clue of some others. what i see coming after reading the posts in here i got the feeling that the once so popular nos domi has its big revival (if it ever was rly dead ). ok so be it then. i love going out solo and to be as flexible as possible right now thats the best ship for that purpose again... i feel so 2006 right now soet
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Doktor Soet hmmm it seems that a lot of players like the changes that have been made close to 100%.... The question is not about liking the changes, they had to be made as speed had become the alpha/omega of PvP. The thread is about pointing out one of the issues that have cropped up after speeds were changed, namely the effectiveness of TD's. Something that would never have appeared on SiSi due to the size restrictions on PvP beacons and relatively low numbers. The effect is most severe in the Frigate vs. Larger scenario where the combination of increased frigate speeds, reduced web strength and the unchanged TD makes them neigh impossible to hit with anything but frigate weapons, even small guns have problems hitting now for Goddess' sake (try a MPII Retribution against a 500m orbit AB Vengeance for instance). It would make sense to hit the TD's with the bat just like ECM and Damps were .. to make them work on all ships, but only shine on the ships with bonuses. I would even support a role-bonus to be added to all bonus ships giving them a boost to their eWar while nerfing the mods themselves into oblivion. Anyhoo, thats what I get from reading this, could be wrong .. it does happen
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:55:00 - [75] Edited by: Baudolino on 27/11/2008 11:57:41 hey, Ugluuk - still out there causing trouble i see It`s never been CCPs policy for there to be a solo environment.. All of CCPs efforts have always been about creating content and potential for large gang and fleet warfare- that`s what CCP are marketing outside EVE and it`s always been that way. There`s been for the 6 years i`ve played, a misunderstood belief that solo gameplay is the consequence of poorly balanced mechanics and overpowered ships/mods.. Too some extent this has been true - back in the day when i loaded my rifter with cruise missiles and engaged people at 3km/s- which was faster than any missiles or guns ability to hit me- overpowered was the name of the times. Since then the game has both become better balanced, but also severely weighted towards large gang/fleet combat. It seems to me, after six years, that CCPs policies of advocating large scale maneuvers and balancing has also opened a space for those who really do not understand or appreciate the complexity of the game to push for further alterations in game mechanics that increasingly debilitate solo gameplay. This is a significant issue and I`ll not spend someone elses thread in elaborating. Another issue is that about 3-4 years ago when low-sec was teeming with life. Some small corporations utterly devastated the low-sec populations. this over-harvesting killed off the low-sec systems and now mostly pirates and some mission runners remain. Solo today is more dangerous due to the conditions of modern-day low-sec and 0.0, but this difficulty has been exacerbated by CCPs anti-solo or at least severely negligent approach to solo PvP. Recent combat and speed changes unerscore this point in a major way. As for small gang ops- they seem to be caught in the middle of solo vs. fleet/large gang considerations.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 16:06:00 - [76] Quote: The question is not about liking the changes, they had to be made as speed had become the alpha/omega of PvP. The thread is about pointing out one of the issues that have cropped up after speeds were changed, namely the effectiveness of TD's. Something that would never have appeared on SiSi due to the size restrictions on PvP beacons and relatively low numbers. The effect is most severe in the Frigate vs. Larger scenario where the combination of increased frigate speeds, reduced web strength and the unchanged TD makes them neigh impossible to hit with anything but frigate weapons, even small guns have problems hitting now for Goddess' sake (try a MPII Retribution against a 500m orbit AB Vengeance for instance). It would make sense to hit the TD's with the bat just like ECM and Damps were .. to make them work on all ships, but only shine on the ships with bonuses. I would even support a role-bonus to be added to all bonus ships giving them a boost to their eWar while nerfing the mods themselves into oblivion. Anyhoo, thats what I get from reading this, could be wrong .. it does happen To the OP, and to the quoted poster above, and to everyone else really who thinks the outcome of that fight had anything to do with Tracking Disruptors: learn the tracking formula. A Muninn (7.5% Tracking bonus per level) fitting Dual 180mm autocannons (best tracking medium guns in the game) using RF EMP (or any other derivative with no tracking penalty), cannot hit a webbed, non-abing, oversized plated AF orbiting at 500m. It has less than 0.01% chance to hit (thats way less than 1%, not 1%). It does not need a tracking disruptor at all to do this. Tracking computers with tracking speed scripts will not improve it enough to hit. dual target painting does not help enough for it to hit. This was the GOAL of the QR changes, it is not a unplanned side effect of them. For small ships such as frigates to have a role in eve, they must be able to perform their role outside of web range or survive while performing their role inside of web range. Interceptors are fast enough to stay outside of webrange while performing their role (fast tackle) at that range. Covert Ops Frigates have covert ops cloaks, they scout, probe, and provide warpins performing their role for the most part while cloaked. Stealth Bombers engage from 150-250km away well outside of web range. AFs dps/shoot things, and get tackle/secondary tackle to allow the inties to move on to the next target which needs fast tackle. AFs use small weapons. small dps weapon's range is universally inside of web range. Thus, small ships are only vulnerable to small weapons when they are piloted correctly, this is the baseline expectation for combat. Now frigates aren't invincible, their opponents can use teamwork & tactics to overcome their advantages, however a solo pilot must plan ahead and bring specific counter modules to stand a chance. This is not just about frigates, the tracking formula is universal and without these changes, once the speed nerf portion of QR hit, cruisers/HACs would be as useless as AFs were prior to QR, in fact BCs would also be severely weakened. However with the changes to web, small ships are very strong vs larger ships, frigates vs all, cruisers vs bc/bs, etc. EHP scales too, frigates were never designed to survive 1300 DPS from battleships but until QR and the changes to webs, that was the consequence of entering web range, ie insta-pop. -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.29 16:36:00 - [77] Edited by: Crellion on 29/11/2008 16:45:44 Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 27/11/2008 11:57:41 hey, Ugluuk - still out there causing trouble i see It`s never been CCPs policy for there to be a solo environment.. All of CCPs efforts have always been about creating content and potential for large gang and fleet warfare- that`s what CCP are marketing outside EVE and it`s always been that way. There`s been for the 6 years i`ve played, a misunderstood belief that solo gameplay is the consequence of poorly balanced mechanics and overpowered ships/mods.. Too some extent this has been true - back in the day when i loaded my rifter with cruise missiles and engaged people at 3km/s- which was faster than any missiles or guns ability to hit me- overpowered was the name of the times. Since then the game has both become better balanced, but also severely weighted towards large gang/fleet combat. It seems to me, after six years, that CCPs policies of advocating large scale maneuvers and balancing has also opened a space for those who really do not understand or appreciate the complexity of the game to push for further alterations in game mechanics that increasingly debilitate solo gameplay. This is a significant issue and I`ll not spend someone elses thread in elaborating. Another issue is that about 3-4 years ago when low-sec was teeming with life. Some small corporations utterly devastated the low-sec populations. this over-harvesting killed off the low-sec systems and now mostly pirates and some mission runners remain. Solo today is more dangerous due to the conditions of modern-day low-sec and 0.0, but this difficulty has been exacerbated by CCPs anti-solo or at least severely negligent approach to solo PvP. Recent combat and speed changes unerscore this point in a major way. As for small gang ops- they seem to be caught in the middle of solo vs. fleet/large gang considerations. You see? Not EVERYONE posting in ships n' mods is a noob Ty m8 I was beggining to despair... Edit: To give a specific example of this: There is no reason why CCP could not double the tracking of blasters and increase to a lesser extent the tracking of autocannons. Its perfectly reasonable for a bigger ship to be able to hit a smaller ship IF HE FITS A CLOSE RANGE WEAPON THAT IS USELESS FOR HIS GANG due to range and trabelling times. If you fit in a way that minimises your usefulness in a large gang this should give you increased usefulness in a small gang / solo situation and this HAS to mean better chances against outnumbering smaller targets. Don't be offended by this guys. Yes it is wrong to want bigger > smaller anyway but it is also wrong to assume that more > less people. Yopu have to invest accordingly. For example should 10 Rifters be able to kill a Titan? Why not? You see where this leads... 3 AFs should not be able to kill a BS set up for a versatile role with close range guns and 2 AFs shouldnt be able to do the same to a versatile built HAC simply because they have not invested the same. They can get 3 HACs and pown the solo guy in the own HAC... why should they be able to do it in frigs also???? This would just replace nano*gotry with frig gotry... whats the difference??????? That the latter is cheaper? That only makes things even worse. Impunity at 10 mill a pop is much worse than impunity at 2 bill a pop. You know FW is allready ridiculous because its only blobs or solo frigates and these changes will make all of eve like this... Balance is not to make it so that flying anything bigger than a frigate and going anywhere past 5 mill SPs affords no advantage whatsoever... thats stupidity not balance... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.*
Lord Morgo LEGI0N	Posted - 2008.11.29 18:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Sean Faust Originally by: Lord Morgo My Advice: Neut the TD ship and pop it. Rinse, repeat. You ARE aware that TDs can be used from over 80km away on an unbonused ship, right? Kinda makes neuting it not an option if hes in a gang where others are tackling and he doesnt need to get in neut range Well, I thought the problem was getting killed by things you can't track. That usually means it's pretty close. You do realise if they disrupt your tracking from 80k, you'd still be able to hit them at that range, even if they were a frig, due to a complete lack of transversal, especially after the speed nerf?
Cobra Ball Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.12.01 16:38:00 - [79] Before i start, I want the OP to know that I also like to fly solo every now and then. In a one on one situation, i can see that a larger ship should be able to take down a smaller ship. For a solo player, the first thing they must learn is how to pick your battles. However, this was not a 1 on 1 fight. You flew your ship into a coordinated T2 frigate swarm. They were able to use team work to disrupt you, scram/web you, and orbit you at a point that you were not able to hit them. Picking your ship apart was only a matter of time. So as a soloer, this is most likely not a fight you can win. Even with the suggestions you make, you are still going to lose to a well coordinated team. Its as simple as that.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 22:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Crellion Edited by: Crellion on 29/11/2008 16:45:44 You see? Not EVERYONE posting in ships n' mods is a noob Ty m8 I was beggining to despair... Edit: To give a specific example of this: There is no reason why CCP could not double the tracking of blasters and increase to a lesser extent the tracking of autocannons. Its perfectly reasonable for a bigger ship to be able to hit a smaller ship IF HE FITS A CLOSE RANGE WEAPON THAT IS USELESS FOR HIS GANG due to range and trabelling times. If you fit in a way that minimises your usefulness in a large gang this should give you increased usefulness in a small gang / solo situation and this HAS to mean better chances against outnumbering smaller targets. Don't be offended by this guys. Yes it is wrong to want bigger > smaller anyway but it is also wrong to assume that more > less people. Yopu have to invest accordingly. For example should 10 Rifters be able to kill a Titan? Why not? You see where this leads... 3 AFs should not be able to kill a BS set up for a versatile role with close range guns and 2 AFs shouldnt be able to do the same to a versatile built HAC simply because they have not invested the same. They can get 3 HACs and pown the solo guy in the own HAC... why should they be able to do it in frigs also???? This would just replace nano*gotry with frig *gotry... whats the difference??????? That the latter is cheaper? That only makes things even worse. Impunity at 10 mill a pop is much worse than impunity at 2 bill a pop. You know FW is allready ridiculous because its only blobs or solo frigates and these changes will make all of eve like this... Balance is not to make it so that flying anything bigger than a frigate and going anywhere past 5 mill SPs affords no advantage whatsoever... thats stupidity not balance... The number of noobs posting here is unchanged, as well as the number of people who post blindly without reading. Doubling the tracking speed of blasters would not allow large or medium blasters to hit frigates. QED. Everything you say in your argument is based on two flawed premises, the first: Fitting blasters on a cruiser or battleship does not make a ship useless for his gang unless his gang is a huge fleet, all snipers, etc. So when you say "IF HE FITS A CLOSE RANGE WEAPON THAT IS USELESS FOR HIS GANG!!!!111one" you really mean "Small blasters" since those are pretty useless for a gang (but not entirely useless, you can still do comedy dps), and guess what? They do allow you to combat smaller ships well, you're dps is greater than theirs, your EHP is far greater, you'll win. Therefore your statement: "If you fit in a way that minimises your usefulness in a large gang this should give you increased usefulness in a small gang / solo situation and this HAS to mean better chances against outnumbering smaller targets." that holds true, simply fit smaller guns. The second flaw in your argument is this: Close range battleship sized guns outrange their equivalent Long range frigate sized guns. Neutron blaster cannons vs 150mm rails. How does a frigate compete at all vs a battleship then? 3 AFs absolutely should be able to kill a BS that doesn't fit to defend against Frigates, ignoring your silly notion when you confuse "Close Range Guns" as versatile. Close range simply means higher DPS possibility at less ranges. Your comparison of nano vs frigate is comedic as well. Nanoing required either a one time investment in implants + standard cost of hull/T2 mods or a combination of higher end mods/gang bonuses and it allowed for complete invincibility, frigates require the standard cost of a hull/t2 mods and only allows invincibility vs a solo target who brings absolutely no defenses to combat frigates. -------------------------- NOTR
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2008.12.01 23:13:00 - [81] Cruisers are anti-destroyer, not anti-frigate.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.02 02:12:00 - [82] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 02/12/2008 02:12:20 This just in-well organized gang of AFs fit to take down larger ships kills a lone Cyclone pilot. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Stein Voorhees Caldari Ghost in the Machine Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.02 17:03:00 - [83] Agree 100% with Rajere on this (first time for everything ). The maths wrt tracking and AFs means TDs are not the problem here. The OPs problems started the minute he went solo against multiple small ships without fitting specifically to combat them. That is what happens in this game, one ship fitting does not allow you to kill all things. You either fit a general setup and get stamped by a group maximising their ships abilities or you go with a specific fitting and you get stamped by anything else. More people in your gang means you can broaden the number of options your gang has available (obviously) both offensively and defensively. The days of the roaming combined arms gang are here guys and girls. The people who do best in this game (at roaming or just looking for fights) now will be those taking out gangs of mixed and complimentary classes and abilities which with a bit of thought turn the gang into a killing machine the sum of which is greater than its individual parts. That or massively reduce your options when out roaming in your BS/BC/Cruiser/Frig only gang.
Pollux21 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.12.03 06:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Ka Jolo Other T1 ships that could have fared well against an AF gang (taking some down as they died): Arbitrator, Vexor, Cerberus with precision lights, Myrmidon, Drake Which one of these ships can NOT be fully insured? A. Arbitrator B. Vexor C. CERBERUS!!!!!! D. Myrmidon E. Drake F. T2 Ships G. Both C and F
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Crellion This epitomises what I hate about this patch the most: It legitimises all the nooblar part time pvpers/Weekend warrior types.... My sincerest apologies for having a (real) life . . . ____________________________________ War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.
Havegun Willtravel	Posted - 2008.12.04 20:25:00 - [86] Using RL on a comparitive basis, there is no way you could fit all the EW of an AWACS into an F16. Never going to happen. Similarly you could never get the 16 inch guns from a BS onto a frig. Just as we have different sized weapon mods for different sized ships the same needs to be applied to webs, scrams, and related EW mods. It is nonsensicle to believe that a noob ship can scram and web a BS. The RL equivalent of a motorcylce towing a freight train. It doesn't have the power necessary. By establishing a S,M,L catagory parity would be acheived without necessitating a nerf. Small Frig gangs would no longer be able to terrorize larger targets with nothing other than their sheer numbers. In a similar vein a bs would have little ability to threaten frigs, the equivalent of a shotgun swatting flies. This could have the potential to equalize and reinvigorate the 1v1 pvp aspect of the game as well as the small coordinated gang aspect. The system already supports this level of detail, it's just a matter of seeing the need and advantage for balance.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released	Posted - 2008.12.05 09:04:00 - [87] People have been calling for an ECM nerf for ages now because Falcons are too powerfull blah blah blah! What most of these people fail to realise that all types of EW is devastatling effective when used in the right way. Damps can totaly screw up targets so they can't even lock a target that has them scrambled from over 15km and Tracking disruptors as has been pointed out totaly screw any chances of being able to fight back if you rely on turrets. When we have a Falcon in a gang and a Pilgrim or Curse comes along then we never bother fitting Amarr jammers for this reason. They are so effective it's not worth a chance jam and what is even funnier is the target can target at the normal speed keep well withing his optimal/falloff range, even keep his transversal right down and still not hit. The point I'm making is all ECM is powerfull when used in the correct way. Ugluuk ignore the idiots smacking you here for pointing something because they haven't got braincells to to see your point!
Sung Mina	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:30:00 - [88] from what I understand a SOLO Thorax is crying cause he got gang rapped by a bunch of AF's wtf did you expect!? pwnage? omfgIpwndot? dude you're solo, you got ganged rapped it's like walking alone in a dark alley and crying that you got the crap kicked out of you by 5-8 other guys. no friggin duh bring a friend who likes destroyers
muhajai	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:51:00 - [89] Edited by: muhajai on 13/12/2008 15:51:52 i noticed a deimos with can outside perimeter station 12h's ago give/take. i got in rifter took his can for a little "test run" he engaged me i went into 500m orbit +2 scram and webb on him... he drops hammerhead II's I began killing drone's after killing 4 he recalled last one..i had 86% armor. he deaggro'd and tanked me long enough too make it too station :( frigates need dmg boost don't you think :) come on shouldn't be possible too kill t2 cruisers with a frigate. imagine if he had been in belt or at a planet ? imo this should not have been at all possible...test was a success. I didn't have a td fitted wasn't needed at all with the small sig and tight orbit.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:27:00 - [90] Edited by: Durzel on 13/12/2008 16:28:41 Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced." The problem I guess is that there is no distinction between a larger ship improving its tracking and a smaller ships disrupting it. Just as larger ships have the CPU/PG/cap to fit & use larger shield boosters that rep considerably more than smaller ones (for example) - surely EWAR should work on a similar predicate? i.e. instead of a TD being capable of reducing a targets tracking by a fixed percentage regardless of the targets size, it should reduce it by a weighted percentage that takes into consideration the size of the ship you're using it (or at least a variable which improves with ship size) against and the "power" of the module itself (i.e. more powerful TDs for bigger ships, etc). That way this 7 ship party would still have effectively neutered the guys tracking, but not to such an extent where he can't do anything about it (7 TDs vs 1 TC/TP?) Just thinking aloud...
Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:41:00 - [91] Edited by: Ugluuk on 13/12/2008 16:42:03 Originally by: Sung Mina from what I understand a SOLO Thorax is crying cause he got gang rapped by a bunch of AF's wtf did you expect!? pwnage? omfgIpwndot? dude you're solo, you got ganged rapped it's like walking alone in a dark alley and crying that you got the crap kicked out of you by 5-8 other guys. no friggin duh bring a friend who likes destroyers Look at that, another ignorant ****** that make me look like a genius certain people dont understand..
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:17:00 - [92] Edited by: Rajere on 13/12/2008 17:19:14 Quote: That way this 7 ship party would still have effectively neutered the guys tracking, but not to such an extent where he can't do anything about it (7 TDs vs 1 TC/TP?) Just thinking aloud... Thinking aloud instead of reading to yourself, good job. guess you missed the part where they didn't need the tracking disruptors and painter/web/tracking computer wouldn't have saved him, huh? If they had 0 tracking disruptors he still wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. -------------------------- NOTR
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:37:00 - [93] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 13/12/2008 17:19:14 Quote: That way this 7 ship party would still have effectively neutered the guys tracking, but not to such an extent where he can't do anything about it (7 TDs vs 1 TC/TP?) Just thinking aloud... Thinking aloud instead of reading to yourself, good job. guess you missed the part where they didn't need the tracking disruptors and painter/web/tracking computer wouldn't have saved him, huh? If they had 0 tracking disruptors he still wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. He still might've killed one or two before dying himself though, which was his original point? As has been laboured over and over the guy wasn't expecting to "win", he wanted to be able to take at least one of them with him.
crastar	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:24:00 - [94] Originally by: Pollux21 As a fan of the AF gangs my corp likes to field ideally 6 Afs, 1 sentinal, 1 kitsune ( sure we could use a curse and rook/falcon but we like to keep the frig theme). We have yet to muster that full gang on our AF roams and we cant we tweak our setups to compensate. A perfect example being when we took down ugluuks triple trimarked thorax. We had 7 AFs and we had two of our guys replace their tackle with a TD. Now of course he was missing a lot but was landing the occasional hit. The sad truth of the matter is that he got wtf ganked though. Another sad truth... we came looking just for you ugluuk, maybe not you by name but you nonetheless. Now, if we had fit 2 of our guys up with multispecs would be having this same discussion about ecm? Oh and btw... about 30 mins before we found you we ran in to a rupture doing the same crap you were and he managed to take a harpy of ours with his assault missiles and drones. kudos to him for that and the fact that he was unrigged as opposed to triple trimarked. We done now? this.
Opertone Caldari SIEGE.	Posted - 2008.12.14 15:08:00 - [95] neutralizers, they can disable certain close range ships, if you get within webbing range try to neut them, use neut rigs, it will cost you much less cap, and much less isk. (egress port maximizer) don't go solo, if they are ishkur their DPS comes from drones, and you can get in range with them and kill them one by one. try a vexor, with small neuts, MWD, small nos, cap booster, small drones and couple smart bomb, that ship has edge over ishkur
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2008.12.14 17:04:00 - [96] Edited by: Endless Subversion on 14/12/2008 17:04:53 Thread was tl;dr Missiles eat webbed frigs and assault frigs this patch. Fit some hams and small neuts on that cyclone and try again. If you want cruiser, try arbi/caracal. Web > TC if the target is in web range. Small drones are good but get targeted by frig gangs.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.14 18:09:00 - [97] Didn't read all four pages, but if you want to rip the **** out of frig gangs (AFs or not) in a solo 'rax, fit light neutrons, warrior IIs, and a 1600mm plate. It worked before the patch, it works now. ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa! -
Mentalman	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:03:00 - [98] Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 14/12/2008 18:19:02 Didn't read all four pages, but if you want to rip the ** out of frig gangs (AFs or not) in a solo 'rax, fit light neutrons, warrior IIs, and a 1600mm plate. It worked before the patch, it works now. EDIT: OK, so I did read a few replies. Quote: Cheap ships should be...less deadly. I have to disagree here. A good AF costs about 70 million ISK and is not insurable. A BC is honestly cheaper. Even if you don't rig the AF, they still end up being about the same because of insurance. I honestly don't see what the OP is crying about though. Against the gang size he was trying to take solo, he should have expected to be completely shut down - whether it was ECM, TDs (in this case), drone-swatting, whatever. I still think he would have done better in a Thorax (which are spectacular when fit specifically anti-frig) - he certainly would have taken a few down with him as they weren't using ECM. Another one that doesn`t understand..It is not a whine against the fleet he was fighting.. But the fact that 1 TD makes it almost impossible to kill a AB fitted Assault frig even tho you web it if you use medium guns.. And a little comment to the guy who said missiles **s any frig.. Fit a HAM Caracal and go up against a good AF pilot..You will loose so bad..
Tnam Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:37:00 - [99] Edited by: Tnam on 15/12/2008 11:40:00 AF is a bit FOTM, and in this kind of engagement really you had no chance in your cyclone unless you went for a setup that was a pure counter to them which imo would be something like: 3 dual 180mm cannons with EMP or some other non-tracking affecting ammo, 3 assault missile launchers (not heavy assault), 2 medium energy neuts. -- ECM Burst Point Cap Booster, Large Shield Booster, Invul II -- stuff in lows... full bay of warrior II's. With that setup I think on the right day you will pwn a gang of 4-5 AF's, horrible setup tho.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:04:00 - [100] Originally by: Mentalman Another one that doesn`t understand..It is not a whine against the fleet he was fighting.. But the fact that 1 TD makes it almost impossible to kill a AB fitted Assault frig even tho you web it if you use medium guns.. And a little comment to the guy who said missiles kills any frig.. Fit a HAM Caracal and go up against a good AF pilot..You will loose so bad.. Actually I do understand. The whole point of the AB changes was that you can stick an AB on a little ship and it turns you into Ninja Jesus against big ships. Fitting an AB has huge downsides - you can't dictate range against an MWD ship (pretty much everyone), light drones will eat your tank for lunch, and neuts can shut you down totally (show me an AF that's not active tanked...), and if you fit short range weapons and you can't get close enough to use them, you really can't do anything except watch as you slowly get pounded to death. I didn't ask to be FOTM, I just happened to land there and even though I know it won't last I fully intend to milk my turn at being overpowered for all it's worth. But for now everything is working as intended - you just need to adapt. I mean, come on - you knew exactly what you were heading into with your Cyclone, but you stuck with an obsolete fit anyway. Working as intended, IMO. Personally, I find AFs are common enough now that my solo ships are all designed around being able to engage them - a light blaster Thorax might not win a shootout with a more conventionally fit one but it'll chew up and spit out an AF gang. (the reason I keep coming back to this ship is because it's crazy good at killing frigs and even when fit that way still puts out enough DPS to fight other cruisers and not just completely suck ass) ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa! -
Friedrick Psitalon The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:03:00 - [101] Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 15/12/2008 15:04:58 Originally by: Mentalman Edited by: Mentalman on 15/12/2008 11:31:09 Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 14/12/2008 18:19:02 Didn't read all four pages, but if you want to rip the ** out of frig gangs (AFs or not) in a solo 'rax, fit light neutrons, warrior IIs, and a 1600mm plate. It worked before the patch, it works now. EDIT: OK, so I did read a few replies. Quote:** Cheap ships should be...less deadly. I have to disagree here. A good AF costs about 70 million ISK and is not insurable. A BC is honestly cheaper. Even if you don't rig the AF, they still end up being about the same because of insurance. I honestly don't see what the OP is crying about though. Against the gang size he was trying to take solo, he should have expected to be completely shut down - whether it was ECM, TDs (in this case), drone-swatting, whatever. I still think he would have done better in a Thorax (which are spectacular when fit specifically anti-frig) - he certainly would have taken a few down with him as they weren't using ECM. Another one that doesn`t understand..It is not a whine against the fleet he was fighting.. But the fact that 1 TD makes it almost impossible to kill a AB fitted Assault frig even tho you web it if you use medium guns.. So your one mod - a web - should be more powerful than the AF's one mod - a Tracking Disruptor - such that the web not only erases the advantage of the tracking disruptor, it ALSO erases the inherent advantage of being smaller against bigger guns, and the afterburner-no-sig-increase-speed-bonus? Yeah... there's a reason they nerfed the web in QR, specifically to PREVENT what you're desiring. As the nano-fiends were so fond of quoting with their medium guns and medium ships moving at impossible speeds: adapt or die. In the original case, there were more TDs by far than web and painters; EWAR superiority is no less deadly than any other kind.
Takvar	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:11:00 - [102] Edited by: Takvar on 16/12/2008 17:13:25 Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 24/11/2008 11:48:43 Originally by: Marc Isabel Originally by: Hirana Yoshida There is no way to adapt as suggested. How about 'start doing teamwork yourself'? With comparable numbers, the AF gang will get creamed. You don't get the thread. Some of us don't like having this 'don't undock unless your in a gang of 5+' playing style, and have fun going out solo, even if it means lots and lots and lots of losses; because you will lose and to compensate for numbers you need lots of practice and lots of isk invested. For many going out in a gang of 10 just so that they can be on the combined kill of some poor bugger who was jumping through stargates at the worst of moments and lolling in corp chat about how great you are is not fun. The proof that some ppl enjoy this comes from ccp, either in the form of lying comments of 'solo pvp should always be viable' or the power of 2 offer that they released recently. Ppl played like this, ppl enjoyed playing like this, and some of those ppl left. You can still go out solo, just as you did before. As always, a solo PVPer has to pick his/her fights with care. The QR changes mean a flight of AFs can no longer be dismissed as either harmless or an easy win for the solo pilot unless said pilot is prepared and knows his business. The QR changes mean that the AF now has a role in gang and fleet engagement. That strikes me as a good change. Pre-QR, some Fleet Commanders would pop your ship and pod you if you brought your AF to the party. Post-QR, everybody's buying drinks for the AF pilots. Have to say, it's nice to feel the love for once.

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