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Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.26 12:35:00 - [61] Edited by: Ugluuk on 26/11/2008 12:39:34 This isn`t about 7 AF taking me with tracking disruptors..It is about the power of 1 TD.. I tested it yesterday with a corp mate cruiser size vs cruiser size.. Test: Broadsword with 220`s vs Afterburner vaga with 1 TD, good skills and script.. I webbed him and he kept orbit at 5000m..I fired between 80-100 shots on him while moving manually aswell and barely scratched his ship at times.. I dont mind going to 0.0 to solo where it is easier but it would be nice to roam in low sec alone too.. Just gotta reply to the guy who commented about using a Hurricane to just tank and jump/dock if needed.. I have tried Hurricane..Met a Zealot,Omen and Osprey..Zealot ran but i got the 2 others off the gate when gate fired..Then a few AF landed and this is what happened: 1 Ishkur aggroed me with TD and web and the enyo with a scrambler..i webbed the ishkur and shot holes in the air most of the time and barely got him into armor after 2 min.. This ment that 1 AF destroyed my tracking so i couldn`t hit them.. 1 AF deactivated my mwd so i couldn`t get back to gate.. Ofc i could have used a AB..But the gates that used to drop people within 30km now drop em out to 58km so mwd is essential to tackle.. I could also used tracking computer but would had to sacrifise web or cap booster.. Or gyro`s but then id have to sacrifise resistance.. What happened next was that i sat there tanking them while shooting more holes in the air until they got tired and brought in a Pilgrim to cap me out.. I know CCP want to balance the game but this is not making it balanced.. Im a huge fan of frigs and love the Merlin and Rifter..But as the guy on another post said: A rifter should not been able to kill his sentry aggroed Phobos that ran out of cap because he couldn`t hit the Rifter..
waruiushiro	Posted - 2008.11.26 14:10:00 - [62] Edited by: waruiushiro on 26/11/2008 14:16:30 Drones, drones, drones. Nom nom nom dead frig. For killing AFs the Vexor is king. 1600mm plate, warrior IIs, small blasters/neuts, etc. Oh and just to be the 15th person to say, a T1 ship vs 5 T2 ships is not gonna win. If it could win, then something's wrong. You gotta plan for killing small ships. That Cyclone could have had 3 assault launchers and a full bay of Warrior IIs. That would have killed at least one frig. Sure it makes your overall DPS suck but you gotta choose, kill big stuff or little stuff.
Xofii Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.26 14:33:00 - [63] Originally by: Ugluuk ... Imo 1 TD should lead to a cruiser/bc not being able to hit a frig unless anti-ewar is applied, ie webs, TCs or painters. Ewar should allways be more powerful than a counter, ie one TD should lead to 1 cruiser not being able to hit another cruiser unless he paints/TD's/webs him with at least 2 of those. For a cruiser to hit an undersized target, then 3 should have to be applied, ie dual painted+webbed etc. If an AF can avoid damage with 1 TD when webbed and double painted then something is broken, otherwise it isnt. As I said TDs allready suffer from only affecting one weapon system as well as not breaking lock (harder to recloak a recon) hence it should be more powerful against that wep. sys. The issue in the past was that frigs allways got wtfbbqd if they got webbed, that sucked. Not sure how the med drone tracking nerf have hit but doesnt 5 hammer II's rip an AF asunder if its webbed and painted? Cruisers have better tank, dps and range, what role should a combat frig fill if it cannot engage larger targets WHEN applying the approriate ewar? That would render them useless. AFs have now finally gotten a role as under the gun tacklers with some dps, as opposed to the kiting tacklers that are ceptors. You cant hit a ceptor orbiting you at 5k+ at 24k either, its just that the role in which AFs and TD complement eachother has gotten stronger, imo that is a good thing. AFs have pretty much had their role reassigned, something which you did not take into consideration, would you have engaged 7 nano cruisers or even 7 ceptors and assumed you would kill a few of them pre-patch? If you say you could then I believe you and agree that the game has made your chosen nieche harder, if not my points stands. I can agree that the counters to frigs are becoming way to scarce, soon smartbombing them to oblivion is all that remain. Btw you could have killed a few in a dico ship if you got dual webs on prey :D Also one last quick question: if you had dual TCs and a painter, wouldnt atleast FMP's and most likely Heavy pulses hit an AF that has some range from you pretty hard even with one unbonused TD on you?
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.26 15:09:00 - [64] While I do empathize with your situation, there are a few things about the events that happened that were only logical: 1. EWAR > Straight up tank & Gank 2. Group > single player 3. Bigger does not necessarily equal better. Nothing about any of this is new. It's no different from when nanogangs would swarm a lone BS. If you want to be specifically fitted to take down AF gangs, you need to try different strategies and very specialized fits for it, just like you used to have to when you were fitting to counter nanofits. Hop in a frig yourself, or start flying drone boats with heavily tanked drones. Do you have any idea what a Myrm with swarms of warrior IIs would have done to that gang? Or hell, even a Vexor could take on 2-3 AFs at once if fitted properly. They were specifically fitted to exploit your weaknesses as a gunboat. If you refuse to adapt to cover those weaknesses, nothing will change for you, and that's always the way this game has been played. Overall, the only things that have changed with the last patch is that the FOTM pvp ships have become cheaper and more accessible to younger players. And I see nothing wrong with that, especially since it's bound to change again in a future patch.
Pollux21 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.11.26 17:44:00 - [65] As a fan of the AF gangs my corp likes to field ideally 6 Afs, 1 sentinal, 1 kitsune ( sure we could use a curse and rook/falcon but we like to keep the frig theme). We have yet to muster that full gang on our AF roams and we cant we tweak our setups to compensate. A perfect example being when we took down ugluuks triple trimarked thorax. We had 7 AFs and we had two of our guys replace their tackle with a TD. Now of course he was missing a lot but was landing the occasional hit. The sad truth of the matter is that he got wtf ganked though. Another sad truth... we came looking just for you ugluuk, maybe not you by name but you nonetheless. Now, if we had fit 2 of our guys up with multispecs would be having this same discussion about ecm? Oh and btw... about 30 mins before we found you we ran in to a rupture doing the same crap you were and he managed to take a harpy of ours with his assault missiles and drones. kudos to him for that and the fact that he was unrigged as opposed to triple trimarked. We done now?
Lord Morgo LEGI0N	Posted - 2008.11.26 18:32:00 - [66] My Advice: Neut the TD ship and pop it. Rinse, repeat.
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:16:00 - [67] Originally by: Lord Morgo My Advice: Neut the TD ship and pop it. Rinse, repeat. You ARE aware that TDs can be used from over 80km away on an unbonused ship, right? Kinda makes neuting it not an option if hes in a gang where others are tackling and he doesnt need to get in neut range
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:22:00 - [68] I've been using one on a rupture. Despite having no bonus for it, and no specific skill training for it, it's putting out -40.2% tracking with a script. That's a little silly for a single module on a ship with no bonus for it. ---- Failing to understand your crazy epicycles since 2003.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:56:00 - [69] Originally by: Plim I've been using one on a rupture. Despite having no bonus for it, and no specific skill training for it, it's putting out -40.2% tracking with a script. That's a little silly for a single module on a ship with no bonus for it. Till you meet a drone or missile ship, or one that does a decent amount of damage with drones/missiles while beign a turretship. Then it's a wasted slot.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:23:00 - [70] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Plim I've been using one on a rupture. Despite having no bonus for it, and no specific skill training for it, it's putting out -40.2% tracking with a script. That's a little silly for a single module on a ship with no bonus for it. Till you meet a drone or missile ship, or one that does a decent amount of damage with drones/missiles while beign a turretship. Then it's a wasted slot. That's why you don't use them against drone or missile ships. That would be stupid. If a large turret was overpowered, it would not be a reasoned argument to attack criticism of it, on the basis that it can't hit frigs. Turret ships are however heavily effected by just one, on a ship which has no bonus for it. Personally I don't think that a single module should be so powerful, without you having a ship bonus for it. Clearly the effect is also worsened now that webs are nerfed. ---- Failing to understand your crazy epicycles since 2003.
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:32:00 - [71] Originally by: Sacul Originally by: Graalum pepole are flying assault frigs now? Idea is low sig radius and ab. Looks ok on paper but i have been seeing allot of enyo's in 0.0 aswell but allmost all of them die every time. Ev0ke is flying af's allot. Sorry to hear ugluuk but u should know that solo pvp has been dead since late 2006. I think you are one of the last veterans to still do it....well did it. CCP says they want to break up large gangs but all they do encourages blobbing. This is what I have found has happenned. The gangs and ganking has become king since all of their patches and solo small gangs are a waste of space... Kind of make sit difficult for people like myself who want to get into PvP but dont have a lot of people in timezone who play at same time (Friends of mine are in 0.0 sec corp and a LOT more Sp's which I am still training to get even close to their level for survivability!) Regards, Jason Brisbane
Ka Jolo The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.27 04:43:00 - [72] I wonder how the OP would have fared with small guns instead of mediums to go with his target painter. Other T1 ships that could have fared well against an AF gang (taking some down as they died): Arbitrator, Vexor, Cerberus with precision lights, Myrmidon, Drake, OP's ship configured for anti-frigate tbh. Don't see how a swarm of AF's is any worse than a Falcon.
Doktor Soet Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:02:00 - [73] hmmm it seems that a lot of players like the changes that have been made close to 100%. i mean i`m not against all the changes that have been made and making webs for example a bit less usefull is ok. been said over and over again that frigs, af and ceptors r now a lot more useful. and in some ways i find that rly cool in some ways i hate those changes. i mean what i see right now is that when fitting a cruiser sized ship or a bigger one i have to keep meds free for a second web or a target painter. best would be to also have 1 or 2 highs free for neuts. i`m not sure if that really is what i want to have. cause in my opinion fittings have now become way more anti frig specialiced then it was ever before. one month ago it was nano gangs we had to think about and use specialized fittings and now its frig gangs. so has there rly changed that much? correct me if i`m seeing something completly wrong there but i`m just a casual player with half the clue of some others. what i see coming after reading the posts in here i got the feeling that the once so popular nos domi has its big revival (if it ever was rly dead ). ok so be it then. i love going out solo and to be as flexible as possible right now thats the best ship for that purpose again... i feel so 2006 right now soet
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Doktor Soet hmmm it seems that a lot of players like the changes that have been made close to 100%.... The question is not about liking the changes, they had to be made as speed had become the alpha/omega of PvP. The thread is about pointing out one of the issues that have cropped up after speeds were changed, namely the effectiveness of TD's. Something that would never have appeared on SiSi due to the size restrictions on PvP beacons and relatively low numbers. The effect is most severe in the Frigate vs. Larger scenario where the combination of increased frigate speeds, reduced web strength and the unchanged TD makes them neigh impossible to hit with anything but frigate weapons, even small guns have problems hitting now for Goddess' sake (try a MPII Retribution against a 500m orbit AB Vengeance for instance). It would make sense to hit the TD's with the bat just like ECM and Damps were .. to make them work on all ships, but only shine on the ships with bonuses. I would even support a role-bonus to be added to all bonus ships giving them a boost to their eWar while nerfing the mods themselves into oblivion. Anyhoo, thats what I get from reading this, could be wrong .. it does happen
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:55:00 - [75] Edited by: Baudolino on 27/11/2008 11:57:41 hey, Ugluuk - still out there causing trouble i see It`s never been CCPs policy for there to be a solo environment.. All of CCPs efforts have always been about creating content and potential for large gang and fleet warfare- that`s what CCP are marketing outside EVE and it`s always been that way. There`s been for the 6 years i`ve played, a misunderstood belief that solo gameplay is the consequence of poorly balanced mechanics and overpowered ships/mods.. Too some extent this has been true - back in the day when i loaded my rifter with cruise missiles and engaged people at 3km/s- which was faster than any missiles or guns ability to hit me- overpowered was the name of the times. Since then the game has both become better balanced, but also severely weighted towards large gang/fleet combat. It seems to me, after six years, that CCPs policies of advocating large scale maneuvers and balancing has also opened a space for those who really do not understand or appreciate the complexity of the game to push for further alterations in game mechanics that increasingly debilitate solo gameplay. This is a significant issue and I`ll not spend someone elses thread in elaborating. Another issue is that about 3-4 years ago when low-sec was teeming with life. Some small corporations utterly devastated the low-sec populations. this over-harvesting killed off the low-sec systems and now mostly pirates and some mission runners remain. Solo today is more dangerous due to the conditions of modern-day low-sec and 0.0, but this difficulty has been exacerbated by CCPs anti-solo or at least severely negligent approach to solo PvP. Recent combat and speed changes unerscore this point in a major way. As for small gang ops- they seem to be caught in the middle of solo vs. fleet/large gang considerations.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 16:06:00 - [76] Quote: The question is not about liking the changes, they had to be made as speed had become the alpha/omega of PvP. The thread is about pointing out one of the issues that have cropped up after speeds were changed, namely the effectiveness of TD's. Something that would never have appeared on SiSi due to the size restrictions on PvP beacons and relatively low numbers. The effect is most severe in the Frigate vs. Larger scenario where the combination of increased frigate speeds, reduced web strength and the unchanged TD makes them neigh impossible to hit with anything but frigate weapons, even small guns have problems hitting now for Goddess' sake (try a MPII Retribution against a 500m orbit AB Vengeance for instance). It would make sense to hit the TD's with the bat just like ECM and Damps were .. to make them work on all ships, but only shine on the ships with bonuses. I would even support a role-bonus to be added to all bonus ships giving them a boost to their eWar while nerfing the mods themselves into oblivion. Anyhoo, thats what I get from reading this, could be wrong .. it does happen To the OP, and to the quoted poster above, and to everyone else really who thinks the outcome of that fight had anything to do with Tracking Disruptors: learn the tracking formula. A Muninn (7.5% Tracking bonus per level) fitting Dual 180mm autocannons (best tracking medium guns in the game) using RF EMP (or any other derivative with no tracking penalty), cannot hit a webbed, non-abing, oversized plated AF orbiting at 500m. It has less than 0.01% chance to hit (thats way less than 1%, not 1%). It does not need a tracking disruptor at all to do this. Tracking computers with tracking speed scripts will not improve it enough to hit. dual target painting does not help enough for it to hit. This was the GOAL of the QR changes, it is not a unplanned side effect of them. For small ships such as frigates to have a role in eve, they must be able to perform their role outside of web range or survive while performing their role inside of web range. Interceptors are fast enough to stay outside of webrange while performing their role (fast tackle) at that range. Covert Ops Frigates have covert ops cloaks, they scout, probe, and provide warpins performing their role for the most part while cloaked. Stealth Bombers engage from 150-250km away well outside of web range. AFs dps/shoot things, and get tackle/secondary tackle to allow the inties to move on to the next target which needs fast tackle. AFs use small weapons. small dps weapon's range is universally inside of web range. Thus, small ships are only vulnerable to small weapons when they are piloted correctly, this is the baseline expectation for combat. Now frigates aren't invincible, their opponents can use teamwork & tactics to overcome their advantages, however a solo pilot must plan ahead and bring specific counter modules to stand a chance. This is not just about frigates, the tracking formula is universal and without these changes, once the speed nerf portion of QR hit, cruisers/HACs would be as useless as AFs were prior to QR, in fact BCs would also be severely weakened. However with the changes to web, small ships are very strong vs larger ships, frigates vs all, cruisers vs bc/bs, etc. EHP scales too, frigates were never designed to survive 1300 DPS from battleships but until QR and the changes to webs, that was the consequence of entering web range, ie insta-pop. -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.29 16:36:00 - [77] Edited by: Crellion on 29/11/2008 16:45:44 Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 27/11/2008 11:57:41 hey, Ugluuk - still out there causing trouble i see It`s never been CCPs policy for there to be a solo environment.. All of CCPs efforts have always been about creating content and potential for large gang and fleet warfare- that`s what CCP are marketing outside EVE and it`s always been that way. There`s been for the 6 years i`ve played, a misunderstood belief that solo gameplay is the consequence of poorly balanced mechanics and overpowered ships/mods.. Too some extent this has been true - back in the day when i loaded my rifter with cruise missiles and engaged people at 3km/s- which was faster than any missiles or guns ability to hit me- overpowered was the name of the times. Since then the game has both become better balanced, but also severely weighted towards large gang/fleet combat. It seems to me, after six years, that CCPs policies of advocating large scale maneuvers and balancing has also opened a space for those who really do not understand or appreciate the complexity of the game to push for further alterations in game mechanics that increasingly debilitate solo gameplay. This is a significant issue and I`ll not spend someone elses thread in elaborating. Another issue is that about 3-4 years ago when low-sec was teeming with life. Some small corporations utterly devastated the low-sec populations. this over-harvesting killed off the low-sec systems and now mostly pirates and some mission runners remain. Solo today is more dangerous due to the conditions of modern-day low-sec and 0.0, but this difficulty has been exacerbated by CCPs anti-solo or at least severely negligent approach to solo PvP. Recent combat and speed changes unerscore this point in a major way. As for small gang ops- they seem to be caught in the middle of solo vs. fleet/large gang considerations. You see? Not EVERYONE posting in ships n' mods is a noob Ty m8 I was beggining to despair... Edit: To give a specific example of this: There is no reason why CCP could not double the tracking of blasters and increase to a lesser extent the tracking of autocannons. Its perfectly reasonable for a bigger ship to be able to hit a smaller ship IF HE FITS A CLOSE RANGE WEAPON THAT IS USELESS FOR HIS GANG due to range and trabelling times. If you fit in a way that minimises your usefulness in a large gang this should give you increased usefulness in a small gang / solo situation and this HAS to mean better chances against outnumbering smaller targets. Don't be offended by this guys. Yes it is wrong to want bigger > smaller anyway but it is also wrong to assume that more > less people. Yopu have to invest accordingly. For example should 10 Rifters be able to kill a Titan? Why not? You see where this leads... 3 AFs should not be able to kill a BS set up for a versatile role with close range guns and 2 AFs shouldnt be able to do the same to a versatile built HAC simply because they have not invested the same. They can get 3 HACs and pown the solo guy in the own HAC... why should they be able to do it in frigs also???? This would just replace nano*gotry with frig gotry... whats the difference??????? That the latter is cheaper? That only makes things even worse. Impunity at 10 mill a pop is much worse than impunity at 2 bill a pop. You know FW is allready ridiculous because its only blobs or solo frigates and these changes will make all of eve like this... Balance is not to make it so that flying anything bigger than a frigate and going anywhere past 5 mill SPs affords no advantage whatsoever... thats stupidity not balance... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.*
Lord Morgo LEGI0N	Posted - 2008.11.29 18:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Sean Faust Originally by: Lord Morgo My Advice: Neut the TD ship and pop it. Rinse, repeat. You ARE aware that TDs can be used from over 80km away on an unbonused ship, right? Kinda makes neuting it not an option if hes in a gang where others are tackling and he doesnt need to get in neut range Well, I thought the problem was getting killed by things you can't track. That usually means it's pretty close. You do realise if they disrupt your tracking from 80k, you'd still be able to hit them at that range, even if they were a frig, due to a complete lack of transversal, especially after the speed nerf?
Cobra Ball Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.12.01 16:38:00 - [79] Before i start, I want the OP to know that I also like to fly solo every now and then. In a one on one situation, i can see that a larger ship should be able to take down a smaller ship. For a solo player, the first thing they must learn is how to pick your battles. However, this was not a 1 on 1 fight. You flew your ship into a coordinated T2 frigate swarm. They were able to use team work to disrupt you, scram/web you, and orbit you at a point that you were not able to hit them. Picking your ship apart was only a matter of time. So as a soloer, this is most likely not a fight you can win. Even with the suggestions you make, you are still going to lose to a well coordinated team. Its as simple as that.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 22:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Crellion Edited by: Crellion on 29/11/2008 16:45:44 You see? Not EVERYONE posting in ships n' mods is a noob Ty m8 I was beggining to despair... Edit: To give a specific example of this: There is no reason why CCP could not double the tracking of blasters and increase to a lesser extent the tracking of autocannons. Its perfectly reasonable for a bigger ship to be able to hit a smaller ship IF HE FITS A CLOSE RANGE WEAPON THAT IS USELESS FOR HIS GANG due to range and trabelling times. If you fit in a way that minimises your usefulness in a large gang this should give you increased usefulness in a small gang / solo situation and this HAS to mean better chances against outnumbering smaller targets. Don't be offended by this guys. Yes it is wrong to want bigger > smaller anyway but it is also wrong to assume that more > less people. Yopu have to invest accordingly. For example should 10 Rifters be able to kill a Titan? Why not? You see where this leads... 3 AFs should not be able to kill a BS set up for a versatile role with close range guns and 2 AFs shouldnt be able to do the same to a versatile built HAC simply because they have not invested the same. They can get 3 HACs and pown the solo guy in the own HAC... why should they be able to do it in frigs also???? This would just replace nano*gotry with frig *gotry... whats the difference??????? That the latter is cheaper? That only makes things even worse. Impunity at 10 mill a pop is much worse than impunity at 2 bill a pop. You know FW is allready ridiculous because its only blobs or solo frigates and these changes will make all of eve like this... Balance is not to make it so that flying anything bigger than a frigate and going anywhere past 5 mill SPs affords no advantage whatsoever... thats stupidity not balance... The number of noobs posting here is unchanged, as well as the number of people who post blindly without reading. Doubling the tracking speed of blasters would not allow large or medium blasters to hit frigates. QED. Everything you say in your argument is based on two flawed premises, the first: Fitting blasters on a cruiser or battleship does not make a ship useless for his gang unless his gang is a huge fleet, all snipers, etc. So when you say "IF HE FITS A CLOSE RANGE WEAPON THAT IS USELESS FOR HIS GANG!!!!111one" you really mean "Small blasters" since those are pretty useless for a gang (but not entirely useless, you can still do comedy dps), and guess what? They do allow you to combat smaller ships well, you're dps is greater than theirs, your EHP is far greater, you'll win. Therefore your statement: "If you fit in a way that minimises your usefulness in a large gang this should give you increased usefulness in a small gang / solo situation and this HAS to mean better chances against outnumbering smaller targets." that holds true, simply fit smaller guns. The second flaw in your argument is this: Close range battleship sized guns outrange their equivalent Long range frigate sized guns. Neutron blaster cannons vs 150mm rails. How does a frigate compete at all vs a battleship then? 3 AFs absolutely should be able to kill a BS that doesn't fit to defend against Frigates, ignoring your silly notion when you confuse "Close Range Guns" as versatile. Close range simply means higher DPS possibility at less ranges. Your comparison of nano vs frigate is comedic as well. Nanoing required either a one time investment in implants + standard cost of hull/T2 mods or a combination of higher end mods/gang bonuses and it allowed for complete invincibility, frigates require the standard cost of a hull/t2 mods and only allows invincibility vs a solo target who brings absolutely no defenses to combat frigates. -------------------------- NOTR
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2008.12.01 23:13:00 - [81] Cruisers are anti-destroyer, not anti-frigate.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.02 02:12:00 - [82] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 02/12/2008 02:12:20 This just in-well organized gang of AFs fit to take down larger ships kills a lone Cyclone pilot. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Stein Voorhees Caldari Ghost in the Machine Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.02 17:03:00 - [83] Agree 100% with Rajere on this (first time for everything ). The maths wrt tracking and AFs means TDs are not the problem here. The OPs problems started the minute he went solo against multiple small ships without fitting specifically to combat them. That is what happens in this game, one ship fitting does not allow you to kill all things. You either fit a general setup and get stamped by a group maximising their ships abilities or you go with a specific fitting and you get stamped by anything else. More people in your gang means you can broaden the number of options your gang has available (obviously) both offensively and defensively. The days of the roaming combined arms gang are here guys and girls. The people who do best in this game (at roaming or just looking for fights) now will be those taking out gangs of mixed and complimentary classes and abilities which with a bit of thought turn the gang into a killing machine the sum of which is greater than its individual parts. That or massively reduce your options when out roaming in your BS/BC/Cruiser/Frig only gang.
Pollux21 Project Nemesis	Posted - 2008.12.03 06:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Ka Jolo Other T1 ships that could have fared well against an AF gang (taking some down as they died): Arbitrator, Vexor, Cerberus with precision lights, Myrmidon, Drake Which one of these ships can NOT be fully insured? A. Arbitrator B. Vexor C. CERBERUS!!!!!! D. Myrmidon E. Drake F. T2 Ships G. Both C and F
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Crellion This epitomises what I hate about this patch the most: It legitimises all the nooblar part time pvpers/Weekend warrior types.... My sincerest apologies for having a (real) life . . . ____________________________________ War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.
Havegun Willtravel	Posted - 2008.12.04 20:25:00 - [86] Using RL on a comparitive basis, there is no way you could fit all the EW of an AWACS into an F16. Never going to happen. Similarly you could never get the 16 inch guns from a BS onto a frig. Just as we have different sized weapon mods for different sized ships the same needs to be applied to webs, scrams, and related EW mods. It is nonsensicle to believe that a noob ship can scram and web a BS. The RL equivalent of a motorcylce towing a freight train. It doesn't have the power necessary. By establishing a S,M,L catagory parity would be acheived without necessitating a nerf. Small Frig gangs would no longer be able to terrorize larger targets with nothing other than their sheer numbers. In a similar vein a bs would have little ability to threaten frigs, the equivalent of a shotgun swatting flies. This could have the potential to equalize and reinvigorate the 1v1 pvp aspect of the game as well as the small coordinated gang aspect. The system already supports this level of detail, it's just a matter of seeing the need and advantage for balance.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released	Posted - 2008.12.05 09:04:00 - [87] People have been calling for an ECM nerf for ages now because Falcons are too powerfull blah blah blah! What most of these people fail to realise that all types of EW is devastatling effective when used in the right way. Damps can totaly screw up targets so they can't even lock a target that has them scrambled from over 15km and Tracking disruptors as has been pointed out totaly screw any chances of being able to fight back if you rely on turrets. When we have a Falcon in a gang and a Pilgrim or Curse comes along then we never bother fitting Amarr jammers for this reason. They are so effective it's not worth a chance jam and what is even funnier is the target can target at the normal speed keep well withing his optimal/falloff range, even keep his transversal right down and still not hit. The point I'm making is all ECM is powerfull when used in the correct way. Ugluuk ignore the idiots smacking you here for pointing something because they haven't got braincells to to see your point!
Sung Mina	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:30:00 - [88] from what I understand a SOLO Thorax is crying cause he got gang rapped by a bunch of AF's wtf did you expect!? pwnage? omfgIpwndot? dude you're solo, you got ganged rapped it's like walking alone in a dark alley and crying that you got the crap kicked out of you by 5-8 other guys. no friggin duh bring a friend who likes destroyers
muhajai	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:51:00 - [89] Edited by: muhajai on 13/12/2008 15:51:52 i noticed a deimos with can outside perimeter station 12h's ago give/take. i got in rifter took his can for a little "test run" he engaged me i went into 500m orbit +2 scram and webb on him... he drops hammerhead II's I began killing drone's after killing 4 he recalled last one..i had 86% armor. he deaggro'd and tanked me long enough too make it too station :( frigates need dmg boost don't you think :) come on shouldn't be possible too kill t2 cruisers with a frigate. imagine if he had been in belt or at a planet ? imo this should not have been at all possible...test was a success. I didn't have a td fitted wasn't needed at all with the small sig and tight orbit.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:27:00 - [90] Edited by: Durzel on 13/12/2008 16:28:41 Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon One ship's attempts to improve its tracking should not negate SEVEN ships' attempts to ruin his tracking. If what he had was a case where one ship ruining his tracking was successful after all his attempts to improve it, then we would have something for discussion. Since what we have is one player unhappy that seven players doing exactly the opposite of what he did being successful, I call "working as intended and balanced." The problem I guess is that there is no distinction between a larger ship improving its tracking and a smaller ships disrupting it. Just as larger ships have the CPU/PG/cap to fit & use larger shield boosters that rep considerably more than smaller ones (for example) - surely EWAR should work on a similar predicate? i.e. instead of a TD being capable of reducing a targets tracking by a fixed percentage regardless of the targets size, it should reduce it by a weighted percentage that takes into consideration the size of the ship you're using it (or at least a variable which improves with ship size) against and the "power" of the module itself (i.e. more powerful TDs for bigger ships, etc). That way this 7 ship party would still have effectively neutered the guys tracking, but not to such an extent where he can't do anything about it (7 TDs vs 1 TC/TP?) Just thinking aloud...

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