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Savage Roar Storm Thesis	Posted - 2008.11.24 04:33:00 - [1] I've just had this thought (if someone else already said it, then I haven't seen it). When you wardec someone, all toons who leave the corp should pay the wardecing the price of 1 week's war, or 10mil, whichever is lower. This is to stop people easily dodging wardecs with no downsides, at least this way they'll be funding the dec'ers if they run away, same as when a corp surrenders the war. What do you think? and yes, this is my sig. IBTL
Precisionist	Posted - 2008.11.24 05:47:00 - [2] I agree I think if you get wardec'ed then u should pay 10 mill or something higher or lower depending if alliance or how big of a corp they have maybe, and if you dont have the funds then u have to give up 1 week of skill training, this will stop ppl from dodging wars after ppl paid money for a war.
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.11.24 06:12:00 - [3] /me looks at OP's posting and writing style.. /me looks at first response's posting and writing style.. Alt detected. But on the actual suggestion, it's not bad. Except make it 10x the cost. Eat that ya pansies. -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points.
Kirex Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.24 06:21:00 - [4] Although I think that's a good idea, there's no way CCP will do that. ATM they think wars are "pay to grief", so if anything happens to the war dec system, it's going to go one step closer towards consensual PVP.
Alt Sauce	Posted - 2008.11.24 06:43:00 - [5] Post a reply with an alt to agree with yourself? Thats lols _________
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.24 07:13:00 - [6] I can't fault this idea. Leaving a corporation currently at war is a form of surrender. So why not make it somewhat costly? If you defect, you lose something. ISK, modules, something. Make it sting.
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.11.24 07:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Verx Interis But on the actual suggestion, it's not bad. Except make it 10x the cost. Eat that ya pansies. Quotin'.
eliminator2 Gallente Fatality.	Posted - 2008.11.24 08:23:00 - [8] great idea i luv it ^^
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.24 08:25:00 - [9] Not the worst idea ever suggested... but why in C&P? ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
Murk Loar Polytope	Posted - 2008.11.24 10:45:00 - [10] ITT:Everyone is my alt. Also,it's a good idea.
FU22 Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2008.11.24 12:32:00 - [11] i assume you mean that the price they have to pay to leave the corp gets paid to the Corp/alliance there at war with
Borini	Posted - 2008.11.24 13:11:00 - [12] Quite a good idea really. But it needs some tweaks: 1 placing a wardeck should cost more then the fee is now, Say 50 mil isk for the first wardec. Isk should go to the corperation you wardec. Then and only then you can get isk from someone who jumps corp.
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.24 13:57:00 - [13] Signed! and now get Tchell Dhann or whatever her name is who is running for next term of CSM to support it!
Valentcia Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.24 16:07:00 - [14] if this idea was implemented... just imagine how quickly and by how much, the rate of new noob corps starting up would decrease. [^_^]
VoiceInTheDesert Gallente Diplomatic Disruption	Posted - 2008.11.24 16:44:00 - [15] Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 24/11/2008 16:44:09 I hate carebears. But. Leaving corp is a necessary escape valve to prevent experienced merc corps from ravaging every newb mission/miner corp they come across. It sucks and it's abused, but if you disallow it or charge a fee, then you're making it too easy to just, as another poster said, "pay to grief."
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.11.24 17:09:00 - [16] Originally by: FU22 i assume you mean that the price they have to pay to leave the corp gets paid to the Corp/alliance there at war with Yes. -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.11.25 03:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Valentcia if this idea was implemented... just imagine how quickly and by how much, the rate of new noob corps starting up would decrease. And this is a bad thing because? "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.25 04:02:00 - [18] probably one of the best suggestions suggested in a while. I like it! now what happens when a player is expelled from the corp?
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.25 04:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Stuart Price Originally by: Valentcia if this idea was implemented... just imagine how quickly and by how much, the rate of new noob corps starting up would decrease. And this is a bad thing because? I hate corps full of noobs. noob a: I have no idea whats going on noob b: me either noob a: Lets start a corp!!! noob b: OKAY!!! noob c and d: Lets join em! noob a: okay lets go to lowsec! 10 mins later Chainsaw Plankton: wtf did that guy just fit a medium hull rep and a 50mm plate to a drake?
Rivur'Tam Fatality.	Posted - 2008.11.25 04:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Kirex Although I think that's a good idea, there's no way CCP will do that. ATM they think wars are "pay to grief", so if anything happens to the war dec system, it's going to go one step closer towards consensual PVP. QFT .. I like teh secs and teh boobies
thesonarnet Gallente The friendly Killers	Posted - 2008.11.25 06:27:00 - [21] bad idea, I was the CEO of one of such Carebear corps for a while in my early days which got war deced several times and it was the only way to avoid being destroyed. It would be a good idea if most of the wars are among equals but atm you only have some ppl who are just looking for fun and war dec "easy" targets and there's no point in letting some old chars have their fun with a couple of months old chars. The only affect it would have is that a lot of ppl stop playing the game or never join a player runned corp again. I don't get it why so many ppl just want to have their cheap fun with noobs. I know it's annoying to find targets in high sec but I gave up the whole can flipping/war dec thing after a week, because it's boring to kill those who can't protect themselves after hours of waiting and searching. It's more fun to get into a real fight in low sec and lose it then killing 10 weaker pilots in a couple of mins.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.25 07:47:00 - [22] What is that I smell? Is that a new way to exploit people? And a way to make new players leave EVE?? Why YES! I think it is! 1a. You create a corp with an alt 2a. You run the corp well, cause your main corp is already a well established pirate, merc or otherwise semi-large corp. 3a. You get it full of carebears with lots of money, or just people who can't defend themselves 4a. You wardec your own corp 5a. ??? 6a. PROFIT! 1b. Someone creates a corp 2b. Someone gets lots of newbs into the corp 3b. The corp has fun 4b. Pirate corp comes along, wardecs 5b. Newbs have no money to leave or to pay for new ships 6b. The newbs quit EVE 7b. CCP loses customers In short, stupid idea, needs to be completely rethought.
Dennmoth Ferdier Scoopex	Posted - 2008.11.25 08:18:00 - [23] I've had a similar idea, but strangely, it was reversed. The wardecin' corp should automaticly pay 10 mil to everyone it griefs to leave from another highsec corp. ------ Heart for isk, Balls for risk.
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.11.25 08:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier I've had a similar idea, but strangely, it was reversed. The wardecin' corp should automaticly pay 10 mil to everyone it griefs to leave from another highsec corp. What a terrible idea. It doesn't even make any sense.
Just fearless Caldari Shoal of the Intrepid Righteousness Integrity Respect Selflessness	Posted - 2008.11.25 09:03:00 - [25] i like it.. but not on 100m to leave make it around 25-50.. Or make it so that it depends on the size of the corp or the amount of timed play by the player?
Dennmoth Ferdier Scoopex	Posted - 2008.11.25 09:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Nexus Kinnon Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier I've had a similar idea, but strangely, it was reversed. The wardecin' corp should automaticly pay 10 mil to everyone it griefs to leave from another highsec corp. What a terrible idea. It doesn't even make any sense. I intended a hint of sarcasm in my post. The point is, not everyone enjoys being griefed by wannabe PvPers who wardec industrial corps. Their only option is to leave, because other people are ruining his gameplay experience. Saying that he should actually PAY automatically 10 million for getting his game experience ruined by wannabe pvper kids is lunacy. My previous post makes just as much sense. take this for an example. if my country was invaded by other, would I pay the invading country for leaving? If you'd reverse it, it wouldn't work either, but it would make much more sense now wouldn't it? If the carebear wanted to PvP, he'd join a pvp corp, no? Somehow to me it makes much more sense for them to pay who ruin other peoples game, not those whose game gets ruined. ------ Heart for isk, Balls for risk.
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Cadela Fria What is that I smell? Is that a new way to exploit people? And a way to make new players leave EVE?? Why YES! I think it is! 1a. You create a corp with an alt 2a. You run the corp well, cause your main corp is already a well established pirate, merc or otherwise semi-large corp. 3a. You get it full of carebears with lots of money, or just people who can't defend themselves 4a. You wardec your own corp 5a. ??? 6a. PROFIT! 1b. Someone creates a corp 2b. Someone gets lots of newbs into the corp 3b. The corp has fun 4b. Pirate corp comes along, wardecs 5b. Newbs have no money to leave or to pay for new ships 6b. The newbs quit EVE 7b. CCP loses customers In short, stupid idea, needs to be completely rethought. This.
N'tek alar	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier Originally by: Nexus Kinnon Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier I've had a similar idea, but strangely, it was reversed. The wardecin' corp should automaticly pay 10 mil to everyone it griefs to leave from another highsec corp. What a terrible idea. It doesn't even make any sense. I intended a hint of sarcasm in my post. The point is, not everyone enjoys being griefed by wannabe PvPers who wardec industrial corps. Their only option is to leave, because other people are ruining his gameplay experience. Saying that he should actually PAY automatically 10 million for getting his game experience ruined by wannabe pvper kids is lunacy. My previous post makes just as much sense. take this for an example. if my country was invaded by other, would I pay the invading country for leaving? If you'd reverse it, it wouldn't work either, but it would make much more sense now wouldn't it? If the carebear wanted to PvP, he'd join a pvp corp, no? Somehow to me it makes much more sense for them to pay who ruin other peoples game, not those whose game gets ruined. Except, You know... This isn't a consensual pvp game.
dennyreborn	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:47:00 - [29] the purpose of a wardec should be to destroy the target corp. Not black mail their characters for money.
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:49:00 - [30] Originally by: N'tek alar Except, You know... This isn't a consensual pvp game. While this is true, there is a distinct difference between non-consensual pvp, and forcing people to play the game your way or quit altogether. So you wardec an industrial corp, the people with lots of isk pay the fee and leave, leaving the newbies who have virtually nothing, no way to pay the "fee", no way to fight back. If they undock they die, so they spend their whole time confined to the station, nothing for them to do, they can't make isk via the market without first putting isk into it, which they don't have. They can't mine, or run missions, they have no isk going into their wallet. They decide they have had enough. They quit EVE. CCP loses customers. This is not good market strategy if CCP wants to attract new customers.
dennyreborn	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:53:00 - [31] How about this. let people leave the corp for free but make them pay if they rejoin within 6 months after the wardec ends.
N'tek alar	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Mikael Mechka Originally by: N'tek alar Except, You know... This isn't a consensual pvp game. While this is true, there is a distinct difference between non-consensual pvp, and forcing people to play the game your way or quit altogether. So you wardec an industrial corp, the people with lots of isk pay the fee and leave, leaving the newbies who have virtually nothing, no way to pay the "fee", no way to fight back. If they undock they die, so they spend their whole time confined to the station, nothing for them to do, they can't make isk via the market without first putting isk into it, which they don't have. They can't mine, or run missions, they have no isk going into their wallet. They decide they have had enough. They quit EVE. CCP loses customers. This is not good market strategy if CCP wants to attract new customers. Except, This is the thing, It's NOT "If they undock they die", True, They probably can't really fight the attackers off, What they CAN do is run. Wait until there's noone outside the station they're in, Move 20 jumps away, or 30, or 40, And continue playing.
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:59:00 - [33] How are they supposed to know there is no one outside the station though? It's not like they can look out of the window. This is where we get into alt territory. Alts shouldn't be the answer, and with locator agents, a newbie will be tracked down very quickly regardless of where he goes.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.25 13:01:00 - [34] Originally by: N'tek alar Wait until there's noone outside the station they're in, Move 20 jumps away, or 30, or 40, And continue playing. Carebears are lazy, they would rather stay docked and whine about how unfair it is they are 'stuck' in station. I don't want to set the world on fire
N'tek alar	Posted - 2008.11.25 13:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Mikael Mechka How are they supposed to know there is no one outside the station though? It's not like they can look out of the window. This is where we get into alt territory. Alts shouldn't be the answer, and with locator agents, a newbie will be tracked down very quickly regardless of where he goes. No, But they can look at local, No hostiles in local = no hostiles outside station, Or they could take a peek in a shuttle, Or use an alt to check if it's clear, or.... Yeah, Seriously, Finding out if it's safe to undock and make a run for it isn't that hard.
Jilly Serkov	Posted - 2008.11.25 14:19:00 - [36] Originally by: N'tek alar No, But they can look at local, No hostiles in local = no hostiles outside station, Or they could take a peek in a shuttle, Or use an alt to check if it's clear, or.... Yeah, Seriously, Finding out if it's safe to undock and make a run for it isn't that hard. Disagree with this bit. Doesn't prevent alt scouts tracking movements and organising an ambush. No war hostiles in local just means you get to undock - not necessarily do anthing of any great use. As for the OP's idea, I also think it is too open to exploitation and abuse. It would encourage wardecs to be used as extortion, wheras IMO war dec is really there to enable PvP interaction - a cornerstone of EvE. And since the "beneficiaries" of non-consenting PvP are the wardeccers, they should pay. Absolutely. I do have some sympathy for ppl who are wardeccing for a "real" in-game reason (territory, eliminate industrial competition, fun, etc) but when I hear "wahh wahh the targets have jumped corps 3 times .... wahhh" my sympathies are TOTALLY with the ppl who do NOT want to fight. Come on guys, if they invest that much time running they are (a) not any kind of PvP challenge (b) going to keep running until you get bored (c) by jumping, sufficiently disrupted that game related wardec goals are met by making them disperse If you just want to fight, go find a target who is willing to fight, like a merc outfit, oh wait, that might be too difficult for the playground bully to handle ... So its not broken, and there is no problem to fix here.

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2008.11.26 14:49:00 - [37] Moved to Features and Ideas (from C&P). Much better suited for this forum. Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online

Manos Soban	Posted - 2008.11.26 17:22:00 - [38] yep, that idea will help small corps when dealing with grand alliances which just want to fill their killboards with green victories.
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company	Posted - 2008.11.26 17:46:00 - [39] Originally by: Mikael Mechka Originally by: Cadela Fria What is that I smell? Is that a new way to exploit people? And a way to make new players leave EVE?? Why YES! I think it is! 1a. You create a corp with an alt 2a. You run the corp well, cause your main corp is already a well established pirate, merc or otherwise semi-large corp. 3a. You get it full of carebears with lots of money, or just people who can't defend themselves 4a. You wardec your own corp 5a. ??? 6a. PROFIT! 1b. Someone creates a corp 2b. Someone gets lots of newbs into the corp 3b. The corp has fun 4b. Pirate corp comes along, wardecs 5b. Newbs have no money to leave or to pay for new ships 6b. The newbs quit EVE 7b. CCP loses customers In short, stupid idea, needs to be completely rethought. This. That. ======================================= Want to see a trick? snaps fingers Notify: "The Final Countdown" is now playing nonstop in your head. Neat, eh?
WillageGirl Advanced Tactics and Maneuvers	Posted - 2008.11.26 18:06:00 - [40] What ever happened to paying for merc corp to give beating to those decking your own corp? ...Its easyer to just switch to another corp than play the game these days, THATs where. Fighting for Our right to Cloak since 2004
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp	Posted - 2008.11.26 23:28:00 - [41] Originally by: ShadowDraqon Originally by: Mikael Mechka Originally by: Cadela Fria What is that I smell? Is that a new way to exploit people? And a way to make new players leave EVE?? Why YES! I think it is! 1a. You create a corp with an alt 2a. You run the corp well, cause your main corp is already a well established pirate, merc or otherwise semi-large corp. 3a. You get it full of carebears with lots of money, or just people who can't defend themselves 4a. You wardec your own corp 5a. ??? 6a. PROFIT! 1b. Someone creates a corp 2b. Someone gets lots of newbs into the corp 3b. The corp has fun 4b. Pirate corp comes along, wardecs 5b. Newbs have no money to leave or to pay for new ships 6b. The newbs quit EVE 7b. CCP loses customers In short, stupid idea, needs to be completely rethought. This. That. hammer, meet head of nail. its funny, from your title i assumed you were suggesting that a corp could counter-pay concord to invalidate a war someone else payed to start on them. - PvPers always say "GB2WoW". the message is that EVE is hard, and people just need to deal with it. wasn't it funny how when nano's started making it hard for them, that all went out the window?
Savage Roar Storm Thesis	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:11:00 - [42] It saddens me to see so many carebears negatively replying, the CnP responses were better lulz. The first reply was not my alt, I'm not that sad, sorry. The reason I started this thread was because about 7 months ago, my friends and I, 12 of us in total, wardec'd [hisec alliance] of about 400 people, because one of their members was a real **** who was causing problems oog to one of our friends. Yea, I know, too far... Anyway, to cut a long story short, after 3 weeks of war with no losses and several freighter kills etc, the alliance disbanded and all 400 members moved to another one. This is just dodging war in simultaneously a petty and epic way, and we were a bit disappointed that there was no real financial penalty incurred by the carebears for all leaving... I agree that yes it can be exploited, and the suggestion of, if people leave, then they should pay [the wardecers] if they rejoin within a certain time after the war (I'd say more like a week, not 6 months) might be more fair. To the question of who pays if they're booted, well it would be the person who boots them then =) and yes, this is my sig. IBTL
Sirimna	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:18:00 - [43] I totally don't agree to your statement!!!!it totally not fair! for example there are some people that wardec to new founded corp with new players in order to have fun and get easy kills!! Furthermore recently a corp wardec a mining corp just for fun! and to get the easy kills. That is totally unacceptable.If someone doen't want to war then he shouldn't war. You simply ruin his gaming experience! I think you wote this since when you wardeced another corp most of the members left!LoL! But i think wardec should be done from both sides!if a corp doesn't war war then no war should take place.
Savage Roar Storm Thesis	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:23:00 - [44] If you wanna be all hisec carebear and not get wars, you have the option of staying in an NPC corp, that way you're totally non-wardec'able and it doesn't exactly change anything for the carebears except for the lack of corp hangars... and yes, this is my sig. IBTL
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:32:00 - [45] Edited by: Typhado3 on 28/11/2008 09:34:59 /signed I think they need to do a big fix to war decs to prevent things like this as well as things like corps dropping from alliances during war decs. edit: oops should have read op properly before comenting ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Dark Flyer Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.11.28 21:18:00 - [46] Originally by: Sirimna I totally don't agree to your statement!!!!it totally not fair! for example there are some people that wardec to new founded corp with new players in order to have fun and get easy kills!! Furthermore recently a corp wardec a mining corp just for fun! and to get the easy kills. That is totally unacceptable.If someone doen't want to war then he shouldn't war. You simply ruin his gaming experience! I think you wote this since when you wardeced another corp most of the members left!LoL! But i think wardec should be done from both sides!if a corp doesn't war war then no war should take place. Spoken like a true carebear. If you have youÆre way, Eve would need to change itÆs name to WoW !! If you're going to impose a some sort of penalty on people leaving a corp during a time of war, it does need to depend on ability to pay, and how long they're been in the game and in my point of view, how long the war has been going on. If the war is during itÆs first week, then I feel the penalty for jumping corps should be greater than if the war has been running for weeks and weeks.
Rheum Rhabarbarium BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.11.29 01:55:00 - [47] Personally I do not think that the wardec should be invalidated for a simple cash deposit. However - the declaring corporation must be willing to fight. If the declaring corporation docks up when being engaged by the defending corporation, the war must be nullified. They must also be willing to sacrifice something in case they can't win the war. Wardec requirement: Must have a large tower anchored in higsec. The tower system is revealed to the deced corporation. If the war has no activity, the wardec is nullified. - Achieved by nullifying the declaring corporation (docked or undocked) does not engage the defending corporation (undocked only) within a 24 hour timer when they are in the same system. If the declaring party loses a significant amount of battles, the wardec is nullified. - Kill/Loss ratio for the decing corporation is less than 1:5, as in they've lost five times more ships than the defending corporation. (A bit of an adhoc solution, there might be a better one out there, but I can't think of one just right now) My suggestion has so many problems, I don't even want to think about it, but the point remains the same. The declaring corporation must be willing to fight, or not declare war. This is just so you can actually fight a wardec regardless of your alliance or corporation size or location, and wardecs aren't just a license to gank.
Calgura Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.29 17:22:00 - [48] Strangely enough, I'm for this idea, but let's expand it. Corp wardec another corp, and then joins an alliance (like privateers used to do). Alliance should pay 50x the number of members in millions to allow the new corp to join. (I mean, if leaving a corp is surrendering, then joining an alliance when you're the wardeccer is also a form of cowardice, and should also be punished). Can also take it to the corps that have 50 people join the day the wardec goes through, or who use alt corps. First off, if you join a corp that's at war, you need to pay a lot of isk. If you join a gang that's currently at war, they must pay to have you along (pay to CONCORD of course), since you, as the attacker (or defender) is a coward to bring along friends. <- This would also hinder the scam of "joining to run missions" and getting shot at by an alt-corp WT. Yes, poor ideas, not very well thought through....
Mikalya Amarr Short Bus Kids	Posted - 2008.11.29 18:05:00 - [49] Originally by: N'tek alar Except, You know... This isn't a consensual pvp game. It isn't Counter-Strike either
Katana Seiko Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.29 18:46:00 - [50] Originally by: RedSplat Carebears are lazy, they would rather stay docked and whine about how unfair it is they are 'stuck' in station. It's amazing how weak-kneed most pirates are. Show up with 10 corp mates or more and they go logoffski. It's funny how the pirates hide and use the same lame excuse when the carebears happen to fight back. You have to admit, a war declaration currently is "I pay, they can't have their part of fun". So somehow we need a solution. First of all, it's pretty annoying that a corp with three or four good PvP players can actually lock down a larger industry corp due to locator agents. And we know that Wars make people stop EVE. So instead of finding ways to end a war, we might find means to make the war a little bit harder, like it should be. (EVE is a harsh place, so why should the wars be easy for the attackers?) If you really want to wake a war, you should have a good reason. Scams are a good one, or lowsec kills. Ransom and Killmails isn't - not really. It's like collecting stamps. ("Wow, it's a rifter, I don't have that one yet! PewPew..") Locator agents: Currently the fees for finding someone are laughable low. You can earn that much by shooting down a single belt rat in Highsec! If you want to find someone that belongs to a corp (or alliance) that is at war, the fees should increase - drastically. Maybe 2 million as lowest (Constellation), doubling up to 8 million for a different region. Some of the mechanics should be revisited and adapted to the current state of the game. Someone said something about "not training anymore". I wonder how the people would start whining on the forums if the attackers (the ones starting the war dec) would not be able to train as long as the war they started is not mutual... --- "Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign for a diseased mind." -Terry Pratchett

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