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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.17 15:25:00 -
[1]
Pirate Crusiers, 20-50 K varities are too easy for their bounties. I can literely sit in the middle of a 8 cruiser spawn, destroy them all at point blank range and not lose half my shields.
I can make over 3 million isk an hour, just hitting these multi weak cruiser NPC waves of pirates with 0 risk and only the cost of ammo.
Either bounties need to go way down or NPC difficulity needs to go WAY UP, thres no way in ehll a single cruiser hsould be able to take on 4-8 NPC cruisers without breaking a sweat.The really twisted part is that hte 8-10k escorts do much more dmg then even the 50k cruisers.
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SleeZe
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Posted - 2003.06.17 16:47:00 -
[2]
Why exactly are u complaining on that seriosly.
-SleeZe
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Elisebi
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Posted - 2003.06.17 17:14:00 -
[3]
Why complain about NPC pirates this is not what the game is sposed to be i don't want another basic hack and slash kill NPC game which is basicly what your trying to turn this into...
most of us want something differen't i would think if u want to just kill hard NPC's over and over again for hours on end go play EQ or DAOC and leave this game alone.
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.17 17:25:00 -
[4]
The lack of the ability to see an over all picture by you two is astonishing.
1. I am complaining because its an idiotic setup the way it is now, and I do not find raking in millions with ABSOLUTELY NO Challenge Fun at all, and its either for the children or increadibly small minded people out there who have to have instant gratification.
2. The MONEY that can be SO EASILY made at the moment, is unbalancing to the economy as a whole. Why not just Hand out 3 million ISK per hour to each player then, its so ridicuously easy to make money off these pirates, why are they even there?
3. No this is NOT EQ or DAOC, but I think a Majority of People would want Semi-Challenging NPC's for TWO REASONS. First, it gives you a chance to semi-realitically try out your combat tactics and Equipment in a live setting.
Secondly, I think most people would enjoy more challenging NPC's to make the pirate/loot hunting more intersting. To say that would make it a hack and slash is Ridiculous, Either TAKE THEM ALL OUT so its not a "hack and Slash" as you so proclaim, or make them more challenging as per the Risk vs Reward. Right
now there is 100% reward and 0 Risk.
People hunt pirates for loot, money and entertainment. Yes this is PvP centric game, but alot of people would enjoy hunting better pirates for the reasons listed above. Either take pirates out of the game entirely or have them be more realistic. Right now they are nothing but a Cash/loot cow for people to farm.
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Ubiq
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Posted - 2003.06.17 17:26:00 -
[5]
If he wants to kill NPC pirates that is he perogative. I hate when people try to tell other people how they should play the game.
And NPCs are part of the game, face it (Cops, Navy, Jovians ...).
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.06.17 18:00:00 -
[6]
Yeah no kidding Nihilist, those two sound like the people complaining about anything that makes it even, challenging or fair. Ooooh, if I want either of those 3, I should go play a hardcore game like EQ huh?? Get a life
I've brought this up before. Cruisers ARE too easy. NPC Pirate frigates ARE nicely balanced IMO, but when Angel Impalers are literarily 10x stronger then Depredators/Marauders/Predators (which are cruisers with bounteis 2-3 more) then you really do have a balance problem.
Though, I would like to reinstate that I do NOT want them to go back to the way it was near live release where every shot the cruiser did was 160-200 damage.
Part of this might be because of another issue I brought up, and that is that missiles are too weak. Either way though, the damage from cruiser guns is pitiful
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Elisebi
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Posted - 2003.06.17 18:09:00 -
[7]
Ok well what i'm more trying to get at is who gives a damn about pirates when there's so many other things that need to be fixed for this game before NPC's should even be messed with...
yes it would be nice to have more of a challenge i didn't say it shouldn't be there but to have them waste more and more time on there useless pirates which they have already wasted tons and have gotten no where dosen't look to good.
If there going to make pirates harder also the loot tables should be there to cause frankly the loot is mostly a joke i hope the pirates are harder thoe before the loot get's put in or everyone will have everything very quickly.
But again harder pirates would be nice but these ppl can't seem to be able to do it or when they did make it harder ppl complained about when there gun's where doing higher dmg make up your minds the more time they spend on these crap AI pirates the other stuff get's left behind.
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Bale
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Posted - 2003.06.17 21:32:00 -
[8]
Try fighting them in a smaller ship if you want a challenge! I fight Angel Depredators and their escorts in my Rifter, and let me tell you, it can get exciting. Especially if the escorts are Impaler frigates, which are way tougher than the Deps anyway. :)
Have only fought one Angel Marauder in my Rifter, which since he spawned about 7km from me almost turned out badly, hehe. Anyway, they're fun to.
Impalers are tougher than Marauders too, BTW.
Actually, maybe I'm just re-inforcing your point. NPC pirate cruisers are pretty weak, if you're farther than 10km away from them anyway.
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soltys
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Posted - 2003.06.17 21:41:00 -
[9]
I'm doing the same currently :) Rifter (well equipped) is good enough for 0.0 pirates now.
Definitely impalers are much more tougher than depredators. I would even risk saying, that hunters are better than depredators - they at least hit me from time to time, depredators - hardly ever. Still, I can handle 3 or 4 implaers at once, assuming I won't do something stupid (like getting near them under 10k range).
I've never find 50k pirate yet, so I won't comment on them...
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Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail. |
Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.06.17 21:59:00 -
[10]
Specific names would be more useful, but pirate cruiser balancing does need a good look.
I'm currently trying to set up some locations on chaos where all of a certain type of pirate can be found in the same system, for better comparison. There's no eta on it at the moment (I have other things to concentrate on first, and a few hurdles to overcome with it).
Redundancy |
Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.17 22:21:00 -
[11]
Redunancy:
I didint bother using any specific names because of all the Gurista, Serpentis and Angel Pirate cruisers i have fought, rangining from each corps 20-50k varities have the same problem.
First the seem only to have 1 active main gun.
Second the main gun hits for pitiful dmg, around 8 Avg. on the 20k cruisers up to about 30 on the 50k cruisers
Third, they do not fire until your within their optimal range, meaning you can kite them to the cows come home.
Fourth, those who use missles only use 1 missle at a time.
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Lithorus
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Posted - 2003.06.17 22:28:00 -
[12]
I'm actually quite happy that I lost my cruiser against 5 predators a few days ago. You sure did a good job on making them more diffucult with the propulsion jammers. Although they still need some work on long range fighting. Also the energy draining pirates is also a welcome change. I will be looking forward to see more sophisticated pirates in the future :)
I both see npc pirates as an income but also as practice, which is why I think it is soon time for npc BS pirates. More and more are getting BS and people need to know what kind of ship they are up against.
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Takeshi
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Posted - 2003.06.17 23:27:00 -
[13]
You sir are insane. Sure they are easy if you have the uber weapons and modules they drop. But unfortunately you had to have gotten them before the difficulty got upped. We got 4 cruisers together, all with stock store bought equipment and went after those 20-30k cruisers so we could get some uber loot. 2 never came home, and the other 2 barely made it out. As well as losing an indy to them as well. They aren't easy for someone starting the game now.
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Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.06.18 00:00:00 -
[14]
use a weaker ship to hunt them???? right that will happen.
The hardest pirates out there are the spawns of 6-8 missiles frigates. The 50k cruisers are the easy ones.
If you lost 2 of 4 cruisers then you shouldn't have been there. The top end cruiser pirates are way too easy if you can take them all on alone and play with them wile you're doing it.
When I see 4 ravs I AB right at them because I want to be close to the cargo container when they go up.....there's something wrong with that :/
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 03:52:00 -
[15]
Damon:
Your dead on. I do the exact same thing, go stright into the middle of 4+ Cruisers so that I can loot them all in one area without spending 10 mins flying around after the battle to pick up scattered cans.
There is something inherently wrong with that picture;)
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Ulf Ulfsson
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Posted - 2003.06.18 10:14:00 -
[16]
Takeshi - I fight cruisers with nothng more than shop bought (or me produced ;-) stuff. The only "exotic" on my whole ship is a medium clarity ward booster and this is neither uber rare nor uber powerful. By my understanding there are very few "uber" items that are significantly better than the market equivalents left in any case.
The cruisers are STILL too easy - impalers are, IMHO, the hardest NPCs in Angel Space and packs of them can HURT. 2 or 3 predators together I can take without turning my shield boosters on. With impalers I turn them on and leave them on as soon as I take the first hit....
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.06.18 11:14:00 -
[17]
Sure, all of them might be too easy, but I don't have access to a list of them at the moment, so if I want to spawn sreas full of them on chaos for lots of people to take a look at, I need to spend a lot of time experimenting :)
The names just help me follow up and prod someone about it.
Redundancy |
Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 11:23:00 -
[18]
Rundandancy:
Cruiser Pirate Types:
Serpentis Chief Sentinel 20K
Serpentis Drug Baron 30K
Serpendits Chief Defender 40K
Serpentis Chief Protector 50K
Gurista Anhiliator 40k
Gursista Ascriber 30K
Gurista Terrorist 20K
These are the ones i can remeber at 7 in the morning here off the top of my head, please feel free to complete the list anyone....anyone...Bueller?:)
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Revolution
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Posted - 2003.06.18 11:26:00 -
[19]
sanshas are probably the hardest to kill(even then they are not hard to solo), guristas, bloods, serpentis and angels are all weak(cruisers). |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.18 12:06:00 -
[20]
Ascribers are fine Nihilist..
one of the reasons for the assumption of their weakness is that one of its launchers is stocked with defender missiles.
As such they present a bigger challenge to those using missile than those using guns.
- - - -
Its a shame to see so much over-generalisation in this thread.
If you are going to say something is "easy" and needs "hardeningup" then at least post out what you are killing them with.
Nihilist , for instance, might want to mention he using 250mm prototype railguns with 4 low-slot weapons mods, with the added "oomph" of the bugged surgical-stike taking each weapon up to around a 7.2 damage mod.
And of course lets not even think about the fact that range-modifiers are not currently in effect on ammunition.
Pretty much everything at that point is easy Nihilist, especially when you can take out the low-slot mods without lowering your weapon damage and then replace them with other mods.
Sorry to do this - but i cannot abide "balancing" on the point of generalisation and missinformation.
- - -
Redundancy - if you are going to look at the difficulty of NPC can i suggest you do so in-house and with careful attention to loadouts.
Some (Guristas Terrorists) are definatley underpowered, others only seem so when viewed from a narrow perspective with uber-weapons.
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 12:40:00 -
[21]
Morkt,
Your full of ****, and make your living off of farming these cash cows for cash and sellign the loot, you HARDLY have an Objective opinion the subject matter. If i was like you I wouldnt have started this thread, but I did because I think it is detreimental to the game to have such no risk ways of profiteering.
I run heavily moded because I want to be most prepared for any PC pirate encoutners. I can, have and DO fight these pirates with less then the optimal setup, and its no different. yes they die alittle faster now, but up until last friday, I was running at around 4x dmg mulitplier and killing them all the same. Thier dmg output is way too weak , which has nothing to do with my dmg output other then I can kill them faster, no more or less difficult. Anyone with any skill whatsoever can take these belts in a frigate, so dont talk about cruisers and ueber weapons making it easy.
Quit whining about people pointing out obvious flaws in game design that may cost you money...Youll find other ways to make money and to adapt. And just think, when pirates get harder, and you adapt, that means less people flooding the market with oh so easy to get pirate loot, and your profits will go way up.
Edited by: Nihilist on 18/06/2003 12:49:36
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 12:41:00 -
[22]
Removed Dupes
Edited by: Nihilist on 18/06/2003 12:44:32
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 12:42:00 -
[23]
Removed Dupes
Edited by: Nihilist on 18/06/2003 12:44:16
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.18 13:36:00 -
[24]
Irrespective of your exploit "outing", and obvious angst over it, the point remains:
Balance requires two sides being given (and not hiding one behind vitriol and bluster).
If you want to start balance start it off by giving details of one side: ship, loadout, range of combat, etc etc.
Coming here playing the high and mighty when you are using and boasting about using game exploits, isnt going to go very far in balancing terms - at least, one would hope not.
(Its also against your Corps charter but - c'est la guerre)
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 13:50:00 -
[25]
No one is Boasting here. Merely pointing out facts and balancing, and as you have read here, there are many other people who can easily kill these pirates. Your main concern is your greed, thats why your posting here. You do not want to see the pirates raised, beacuse it will hurt your bottom line.
I have nothing to gain from posting here. If i were "boasting" as you so articulately state, then I wouldnt be doing it here in the Patch review section, trying to get them tone down and bring them back into Balance in the Game.
As for your "exploit" claims, I make it a point to follow the developement of this game very closely, and to know whats going on inside and out. I merely informed you of a bug that was present, nothing more nothing less. Now to try and use that information against me so that your precious cash cows do not get fine tuned, is inane. You should be more worried about the Dolts in MOO and other greifing corps using these bugs, as for the smart pilot would be well advised to take every precaution and preparation available to him until such time as their are assurances from CCP that the palying field is lvl for everyone.
Quit being a selfish brat and trying to black mark me to protect your own interests, you wear your alterior motives on your sleeve.
Edited by: Nihilist on 18/06/2003 13:57:09
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.18 14:21:00 -
[26]
*cough cough*
Your point is spurious at best.
As you pointed out, pirates being harder makes items more valueable.
Upping the difficulty of pirates doesnt affect my EVE income other than in a positive fashion.
- -
If you want to change pirate difficulty then present a solid case for it... don't just run in telling us its too easy "coz".
That includes showing whats on your side of the scales. Where its pirate-modules utilising bug-damage mods its a different matter to someone in an osprey using market guns and missile launchers.
You, (emphasise) failed to take that into consideration , failed to detail it, and are now merely being petulent because i've pointed out why it is "so easy" for you.
I think most are too easy, especially having worked out how to fight them without risk. But if you look at that sentence another glaring factor should be apaprent also... which also you fialed to mention.
I don't want this to be a lecture, but you really should realise that balance isn't just a matter of "say so".
You've been *****ing nuts easily - shame you didn't mention you were using a sledgehammer to do it.
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 14:28:00 -
[27]
Listen Morkt, Ill take a Merlin, right now, outfit it with NPC Vendor EQ ONLY, and do the exact same thing im doing now. Yes I will not be able to sit in the middle of all the cruisers at PB range, due to the smaller shield size, but I wil lstil leasily be able to kill whatever spawns from 20-50K cruisers, albeit slower then in the cruiser due to less and smaller turrets.
Sledgehammer has nothing ot do with it. When crusiers only have 1 main gun tha does 8 dmg Average on 20k crusiers to only 30 dmg on 50K cruisers and only fire 1 missle at a time, only fire their turrets from the Optimal stock range, and are slow as crap, thats unbalancing, considering you can make 200-400k per belt ever 5 or so minutes.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.06.18 14:30:00 -
[28]
Morkt, it IS too easy and they SHOULD be made harder. You want an argument
10k Pirate frigates do 4x the damage of a 20k Cruiser and 2x the damage of a 30k cruiser. There. There's your argument. Argue THAT!
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.18 14:39:00 -
[29]
Hippey - I know that MOST are too easy - Im not arguing that.
The point is WHY they are too easy, now HOW they are too easy.
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woot
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Posted - 2003.06.18 14:40:00 -
[30]
it sounds like the answer is to remove pirate cruisers and replace them with a couple of frigates. at least until they have time to spend play balancing cruisers.
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