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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.18 14:49:00 -
[31]
No it isnt.. its far more fundamental than that.
The whole combat dynamic is currently stuffed.
If you want to take the defender missiles mounts off (some of) the NPCs too mount another gun - thats fine. They will THEN be too easy using missiles (again).
If you always fight Terrorists at 25km you'll never know they can hit for 80-100 at very close range as they use particle cannons.
If you give them a MWD or abs - as they once had - do you remove the stasis and scrambler?
Should NPCs even be limited by slots?
Frigates are ONLY hard because you are dropped (form warp) close into them - if you approach form range they cant even get to you and are the easiest of all to kill - ANY of them.
The point being, once again, balance isn't about saying "Oh this is too easy make them hit harder".
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.18 14:53:00 -
[32]
No Morkt, thats the problem, the Cruisers with the Blasters and other weapons that are uspposed to do big dmg at clsoe range, are only hitting on avegage between 8-30dmg per shot and they are only firing 1 cannon, they are crusiers and should have mulitple turrets, doing realistic dmg, and they should fire their long range gusn and not let you kite...its all fubared
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.18 15:09:00 -
[33]
No, it's not "the" problem.
Its a small part of the problem which starts with warping to a set point (area around).
Its also to do with poor mixing of different ship types.
Its also to do with diabolically poor ai - there isn't even a "hate" list.
And its also to do with players doing too much damage.
I'm all for changes and upping the difficulty of NPCs, but I would like it to be done properly and for the proper reasons.. not off the basis of "My ub3r zpl0it w4ap0ns 0wnz th3m!".
Their spawn routines need changing, their spawn locations need changing (and made variable), they need to be given AI scripts, preferably spawns should be dynamic, preferably spawns should be reactive (any NWN player should know how) and so on and so forth.
What shouldn't happen is that they are given uber-guns and wonderful loadouts and enhancements off the back off a dodgy player perspective (because they are using bugged weapons and ammo).
It should be obvious the problem isn't purely one of damage - that's way too simplsitic and rather narrow minded.
Edit: Which, before anybody runs off to fetch a noose, does NOT mean that damage doesn't need looking at also.
PPS: Some cruiser do fire multiple missiles, but they dont stagger them, which is the problem in that instance.
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 18/06/2003 15:12:17
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Ubiq
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Posted - 2003.06.18 15:33:00 -
[34]
Both you guy's are making good points. The devs should look at this asap.
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Mustafa Ken'Yova
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Posted - 2003.06.19 01:29:00 -
[35]
I agree that these pirate cruisers are too easy. Frigates do more damage a.) bc they are faster and b.) bc they fire more missles.
The Ospreys (Gurista terrorists) are a joke. They do 8 - 10 dmg a shot avg. The Ascribers are tougher and Anihilator's tougher still. The high ended cruiser spectrum does not need to be upped in power that much imo, its the lower cruisers that need a big boost in power.
I am just very afraid that the Dev's will make the NPC pirates incredibly powerful (as they were in one infamous patch where they did the rollback) and end up ruining the game for a day or two. It is a very complicated matter as to what is "balanced" and what is not. I am sure that the dev's know the cruisers need some tweaking at this point though.
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Mitchman
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Posted - 2003.06.19 07:36:00 -
[36]
Nihilist, try out the Guristas Nullifiers (Moa pirates) for a 50k bounty. Do it short range and you're in for a challenge.
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Axor Thormgrost
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Posted - 2003.06.19 07:47:00 -
[37]
I am not the Authority that some of you seem to be, or believe yourselves to be...but here is my two bits.
The NPC Pirates seem to be very easy unless you consider the following:
1. Most new players cannot afford a decent ship to fight with and this even applies to many corporations. I have a fairly big Corp and I know that even with 15 people mining their hearts out, we really do not make a lot of cash considering the total man-hours of work involved.
You guys who got the super ore early on and now have Moas and Ruptures you have it easy....your God Killing weaponry and Astronomical cash on hand makes anything easy for you. Try to Remember that the people who didnt get in on the Arkonor and the Bistot work hard to make half a million a day. They dont even know what a "prototype weapon" is.... let alone what "sharpshooter" does. If you jump into an Ascriber and 4 Devastators, believe me as you limp home with 11% structure and 7% armor you are grateful pirates are weaker than they should be.
CCP needs to do more than just increase the damage, they need to Change the spawn and make the spawns more fair, or have them spawn and then warp system to system not just "spawn all around you" as they so frequently do.
2. The biggest problem I have with the Pirates is that they spawn sooo close...and even after you kill them, mre spawn right on top of you...they shold have to "warp in" the same as anyone and take time to lock...and loose time when they switch targes
etc... Like a real person does.
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Alia
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Posted - 2003.06.19 11:24:00 -
[38]
Axor: I'm getting very annoyed at this "you uber players coming in early mining uber ore with your uber weapons" crap. I bought the game in retail never having been in beta. I have mined no ore more exotic than omber for cash. I STILL have 2 cruisers parked in my garage as a (currently) dedicated freelancer. I have bought my ships "ahead of the curve" i.e. before market forces have driven down the value.
When hunting NPC pirates I equip my Rupture with shop bought goods - I equip 4x650mm artillery and my low slots are taken up with power and cap boosts to enable me to do this and to overcome the effects of my MWD. The only "exotic" items I employ against NPCs are medium clarity shield boosters. And I find pirates cruisers VERY easy. I fight the best angel cruisers I can - mainly depreds and predators cos I haven't found reliable spawns of higher cruisers. I was fighting 3 depredators (20K) yesterday and despite the fact that with MWD equipped I should be pounding from a distance I was parked in the middle of them and even playing a shockwave game in another window to pass the time while I took them down. Predators (30K) are not significantly more challenging - the only ship I regularly encounter that is not trivial with my SHOP BOUGHT weaponry is the impaler, the 10K frigate.
Tangling with 3 20K cruisers is trivial.
Tangling with 3 10K frigates can be challenging.
Is that right?
Oh, and by the way I'm posting as an alt cos I don't believe giving away my entire ship config in the forums to be very healthy at all.
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Hanse Davion
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Posted - 2003.06.19 12:25:00 -
[39]
Wow you all make good arguements for you various cases. I wish you all could do it without all the insult BS thrown in. I makes reading your post and trying to see your point difficult.
My 2 cents are this.
How do you balance pirates for every player configuration? Is it possible to write a script that will scan you weapons configuration and spawn pirates specifically to combat it? Do we want something like this done?
Should Pirates be able to use smartbombs against missle users? If so how many should they mount?
If you mount say 4 x 650mm Cannons. Range there is about ohhh 25K, so should every NPC pirate have 25K range to give you challenge? If so what happens to the guy without 25K range?
Now before anyone gets upset and start *****ing, all I'm asking is how do we balance them so that everyone is challenged, but not so powerful where only 10% of the Eve population knows how to kill them?
Nihilist, Hippey, Morkt Drak, and Axor Thormgrost, I wish I understood the dynamics of this game the way you all seem to. Trouble is I don't and it's not because I'm stupid. Problem is that I represent the majority of players who don't care about the actual dynamics or even pay attention to those damage messages. I just load up my ammo and go hunting, because of this the same pirates that you find so easy are hard as hell for me.
Instead of everyone insulting each other here I offer you all a serious challenge for you intellect. Offer a solution that works for both someone like you and someone like me..
2005.01.21 05:09:06combatYour Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Blood Priest, wrecking for 533.1 damage. |
Alia
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Posted - 2003.06.19 12:40:00 -
[40]
Nah, what I'M saying is that if I am equipping 4x650s which are desinged to be used at range AND have an MWD equipped reducing my effective shields then I should not be able to sit in the middle of 3 pirate cruisers and be doing something else while taking them down. Its not like I'm exploiting a weakness in the weapon setup of the pirates - that would be INTERESTING because it would involve coming up with a strategy. Depredators, for example, cannot hit me if I stay at range and if I close to "give them a chance" (actually cos I got bored and its easier to pick up the loot ;-) then its STILL rarely worth turning on shield boosters even though I have half shields due to MWD....
Its not a weapon configuration that has (exploitable) weaknesses - its a weak weapon configuration.
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.06.19 12:40:00 -
[41]
If you let this argument get out of hand, it will be locked.
Don't make me do that just because you can't debate different views with civility.
Redundancy |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.19 13:20:00 -
[42]
If they used a system similar to NWNs for encounter difficulty then the entire galaxy would be infinitely more varied.
All they need to is assign arbritrary ratings to each NPC ship loadout and then asign a rating to each encounter (by sec rating or whatever).
Any grouping of ships can then be spawned so long as it doesn't go over the difficulty cap.
Its simple, it works and its much more varied.
All that needs doing is establishing a series of relevant loadouts for the NPC ships (which isnt hard).
We could do it ourselves if we knew whether or not NPC ships need to have modules equipped to appear in their loot-table or whether loot tables are irrespective of equipped modules.
It really isnt rocket science and the "Encounter Difficulty" rating system is proven and reliable.
It isnt rocket science.... then just give them some AI, a hate list would be a start.
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