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Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:04:00 -
[1]
This is a long one,
Eve is taking a shape of the perfect pvp game, however getting into and avoiding fights have always been limited to a very annoying tactic, choke points and camps. Or scanning them down.
While some detection tools are available at the current moment (Scan Probes, Ship Scanners, and local) they donÆt really add neither significant effort nor entertainment to the gamming experience.
Any new implementation needs to be balanced to ensure the defenders and attackers gain a set of advantages and disadvantages to this new system, so ill try to look at all of those issues.
First remove local, quite annoying really and dose not make any sense, it pulls you right out of the immersion in about 0.3 seconds.
Current scanners are almost God like, but in the same time not much use for actually meeting your target in the required time. They show you how many ships, names types and relative location and distance in one press of a button, its an information wet dream for strategist, but when it comes to Tactical teams itÆs a nightmare.
The fun combat in eve works in the lower tears of strategy and tactics, at the moment in terms of practicality the only thing they provide is information to the commander to weather run, fight or get more people.
Implement Active Scanner:
This is a new lair over the current ping scanner, at the moment scanners work like Sonar Pings in navel warfare, you ping a direction and you get a return of that target.
The active scanner will work like a constant sweep ôphased arrayö or active sonar, where you get readings every few milliseconds ôdose not need to be that short 1-2 sec is goodö
Now this will have a limited range and angel, 15AU and around 55-65 degrees is good, and it will work on resolution which can be enhanced via a Models or something of that sort ( I would like it to be on its Own slot but meh)
The scanner properties will be:
òIt will return ship size
òIt will return Approximate ship direction
òIt will return if the incoming ship has its scanner On or OF
òIt will return if the incoming ships Scanner is aimed at your ship
òIt will have a scalable set of resolutions which correspond to ships location starting from (100% range-1% accuracy) to (1% Range û 100% accuracy)
òIt will enable warp to target, however with relative timer via processes.
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Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:04:00 -
[2]
How will this help?!
For hunters:
It will enable them to meet their target with a small number of ships this will give a new life boost to small/solo gang play where currently that type of game play is almost devastated.
It will move fights away from gates, which currently almost the only environment where fights happen. And to be honest after several years of eveÆing itÆs just plain boring.
It will cause the hunters to put effort in the hunt, not that I am saying that the current scanner dose not require that, but at the moment thy are too slow and require a fair amount of luck.
For the hunted:
This will help them operate in a assured safety environment, since local will not warn them or the hostile of each others presence, so if the incoming has hostile intentions and scans the target then the target will have a warning time frame for him to take evasive action.
If the incoming dose not have any hostile intentions his scanner will be switched off.
Now some might disagree with this but taking such actions will require effort as well, and clocking should not be an option in the formula of risk Vs rewards, I have nothing vs warping back to a station or POS, or hell call some back up.
For the game:
Aside from personal benefits, we need to look at this from a broader prospective, this if manageable will add a whole new lair of depth to the game, enhance solo and small gang game play and will partly remove the dreaded fights from the gate areas.
It will enhance the gamming experience by removing the meta gamming tool of the all seeing eye ôlocalö, and it will also help make space feel larger and much more remote than what it currently is.
Well just an idea at the moment, sorry about the crappy English, and please discuss, comment, or flame at you will.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:06:00 -
[3]
What would be nice, in this high tech era, is a less excell sheet kind of scanner.
Open scanner.
See system.
Set range.
Set vectorvictor.
See thingies on scanner 
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:12:00 -
[4]
Personally I think its too much hassle with scan probes.
An Idea could be to rationalize the process completely: remove the probes, set up a easy to use scanner system that swipes all around you within certain limitations, which can be expanded depending om skills.
THEN we could speak about removing locals! Maybe..
 Originally by: Dianabolic
Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:13:00 -
[5]
agreed, it will add a lot to the game, especially if asteroid belts aren't very static, but rather scannable and not predictable |
Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:20:00 -
[6]
remove local #50235 ........
at least a sound post and one of the better ideas i have read so far.
still: it is a MMORPG, no local means no communication with the other side other than the flaming pit of hell these forums are.
maybe one could make local 'arbitrary' in 0.0
like have a setting that makes you autojoin local, that way you could at laest talk in secure space with other people of your alliance and flame people from other allainces after the fight.
high sov level constellations should force you to join local again however.
argh see what you did! you made me think about changing local as well :P
and also this won't get the fights off the gate in any way, people will still camp there as there is no benefit in going to the moons or roids or planets if they want to kill their prey.
the active scanner is a really great idea though!
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:29:00 -
[7]
Remove Local Completely...
Use Constilation chat instead....problem solved!
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Neth'Rae
Gallente
Decorum Inc
Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:34:00 -
[8]
Why not take it one step further and make it like radar in reallife?
If you set your scanner to active you will have a bigger chance of being detected by other scanners.
And covops/recons would have skills to reduce their scanner signature, so they could have an active scanner with lower chances of being detected.
That way cloakers that are actively searching for you would have a chance to appear on scan, while cloakers that just sit afk wouldn't appear.
Also, all the info you get from the scanner should be logged in some kind of history so if you catch a glimpse of someone somewhere it gets logged, and you can go back and check the log for activity and movement patterns.
As it is now, if someone uncloaks and drops a probe, and I spam the scanner button the ship will appear and then disappear as soon as I press the scanner again.
I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here! |
Sicex
Biggest Dickest
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:35:00 -
[9]
I thought I remembered the expansion after RMR was supposed to have an integrated 3D ship system scanner.
Sounded like a great idea but for whatever reason it was scrapped. :(
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Rivur'Tam
Fatality.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:51:00 -
[10]
stuiped stuiped stuiped
I hate these local wine threads
what you really trying to say is
OMFG I CANT GETS KILLS ON RATTERS COS THEY HIDES
and flame all you want i won't be coming back to check for replys
so flaming me just proves your a tard who can't read
..
I like teh secs and teh boobies |
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Tiger313
313th Squadron
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:29:00 -
[11]
I'd suggest the following adaptations to the plan:
Smaller ships short scanner ranges, bigger ships bigger scanner ranges. Works with a fall-off like jammers do now. Larger ships/capital fleets/pack of fighters show on scanners faster then smaller ships/roaming gangs/pack of light scout drones.
Also, distant fleets should be shown as a single contact when they come into scanner fall-off range, getting closer would slowly reveal the real amount of ships, bigger ships being individually visible before smaller ones.
Cloaked ships not visible even in full scanner range, unless they come within visible range (much like how it works today).
Can make electronic warfare ships to passively jam scanners, bubble style, up to visual range or up to where other ship scanner strenght overrides this. ("Warning! Enemy fleet detected only 10 clicks away!" kinda thing.) Firing from within said bubble would give away position due to trajectory analysis. Multiple ew ships could work together to make said bubble larger, but larger bubbles could make a void on a scanner screen which could give away position if it blocks out known objects like a moon or the likes. It's a bit of a gimped fleet cloak if you will, but then there still is, of course, ECCM.
Removal of local chat? No. With all these changes just don't make the nicklist/number of people visible.
(This is just my personal view and does not nescessarily resemble my corp's stance on the issues at hand.)
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Tiger313
313th Squadron
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Why not take it one step further and make it like radar in reallife?
If you set your scanner to active you will have a bigger chance of being detected by other scanners.
And covops/recons would have skills to reduce their scanner signature, so they could have an active scanner with lower chances of being detected.
That way cloakers that are actively searching for you would have a chance to appear on scan, while cloakers that just sit afk wouldn't appear.
Also, all the info you get from the scanner should be logged in some kind of history so if you catch a glimpse of someone somewhere it gets logged, and you can go back and check the log for activity and movement patterns.
As it is now, if someone uncloaks and drops a probe, and I spam the scanner button the ship will appear and then disappear as soon as I press the scanner again.
I do approve of this, too.
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SpawnSupreme
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:33:00 -
[13]
i would be ok with this if the huntee can drop a scramble probe or a probe that basicly acts like local for a duration
otherwise thoe poor guys who let thier guard down for 1 second to long means uber 6 vs 1 gank fest
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Neth'Rae
Gallente
Decorum Inc
Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: SpawnSupreme
i would be ok with this if the huntee can drop a scramble probe or a probe that basicly acts like local for a duration
otherwise thoe poor guys who let thier guard down for 1 second to long means uber 6 vs 1 gank fest
If you're ratting you can have your active scanner on, and once it "beeps" just warp out :P
I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here! |
Baron Erique
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sir Scorpion
For the hunted:
This will help them operate in a assured safety environment, since local will not warn them or the hostile of each others presence, so if the incoming has hostile intentions and scans the target then the target will have a warning time frame for him to take evasive action.
If the incoming dose not have any hostile intentions his scanner will be switched off.
This doesn't make sense. You're saying that hostile intentions can be determined by whether or not someone is scanning your ship. But...how do you see the alleged hostile is scanning you? By scanning them! Which according to your reasoning means YOU have hostile intentions too! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sir Scorpion
The scanner properties will be:
òIt will return ship size
òIt will return Approximate ship direction
òIt will return if the incoming ship has its scanner On or OF
òIt will return if the incoming ships Scanner is aimed at your ship
òIt will have a scalable set of resolutions which correspond to ships location starting from (100% range-1% accuracy) to (1% Range û 100% accuracy)
òIt will enable warp to target, however with relative timer via processes.
Several key point are missing in your explanation.
In particular in your image I see:
- distance locked object 10,2 AU range;
- selected object, enables warp to.
So if I get it right your idea is that people will activate the scanner, get a reply in some second and warp to the target (with some inaccuracy), without any need for probes, dedicate modules like probe launchers, bonused ships and so on.
That is your idea of a balance between prey and hunter?
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SpawnSupreme
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:26:00 -
[17]
to be a hunter means you travel in a pack cuz im sure some of you will say you solo hunt but in 3 years i never see it
but to the point the hunter should require prob and probe ammo for this so it reduces his effectivness in gank you do not wanna gank a mission runner solo cuz you are essentualy weaker do to the heavy cpu the launcher takes reducing the amount of effective mods you use.
probes reduce the amount of ammo and batteries you can fit in cargo without probes you setting people up for serious failure and if you ask people to run where do they go? right into your trap?
no i dont agree with this you must need probes and if the target has a jam probe any attempt to scan him is foiled but it reduces his effectivness as well to rat or mission.
this i would be ok with
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:28:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Michael McNeil on 25/11/2008 14:35:28
Edited by: Michael McNeil on 25/11/2008 14:32:51
Originally by: Tiger313
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Why not take it one step further and make it like radar in reallife?
If you set your scanner to active you will have a bigger chance of being detected by other scanners.
And covops/recons would have skills to reduce their scanner signature, so they could have an active scanner with lower chances of being detected.
That way cloakers that are actively searching for you would have a chance to appear on scan, while cloakers that just sit afk wouldn't appear.
Also, all the info you get from the scanner should be logged in some kind of history so if you catch a glimpse of someone somewhere it gets logged, and you can go back and check the log for activity and movement patterns.
As it is now, if someone uncloaks and drops a probe, and I spam the scanner button the ship will appear and then disappear as soon as I press the scanner again.
I do approve of this, too.
I'd suggest the following adaptations to the plan:
Smaller ships short scanner ranges, bigger ships bigger scanner ranges. Works with a fall-off like jammers do now. Larger ships/capital fleets/pack of fighters show on scanners faster then smaller ships/roaming gangs/pack of light scout drones.
Also, distant fleets should be shown as a single contact when they come into scanner fall-off range, getting closer would slowly reveal the real amount of ships, bigger ships being individually visible before smaller ones.
Cloaked ships not visible even in full scanner range, unless they come within visible range (much like how it works today).
Can make electronic warfare ships to passively jam scanners, bubble style, up to visual range or up to where other ship scanner strenght overrides this. ("Warning! Enemy fleet detected only 10 clicks away!" kinda thing.) Firing from within said bubble would give away position due to trajectory analysis. Multiple ew ships could work together to make said bubble larger, but larger bubbles could make a void on a scanner screen which could give away position if it blocks out known objects like a moon or the likes. It's a bit of a gimped fleet cloak if you will, but then there still is, of course, ECCM.
Removal of local chat? No. With all these changes just don't make the nicklist/number of people visible.
(This is just my personal view and does not nescessarily resemble my corp's stance on the issues at hand.)
this isnt entierly a bad idea, however the implamation seems to require about 1 to 2 years to take effect because you are asking to change a great deal of mechanics to the game.
one addaptation i would have to tiger313's ew anti scanner bubble:
is if ships keep entering thebubble but dont leave it, your scaners can pick up the void the bubble makes much faster.
and one thing I would add to this in order to make the pos's have more use is a addon that scan's the system, and reports nearby nonfriendly's to all friendly scanners. (by use of standings)
one addition to the fleet commander role is a more realsitic intel gathering system, the pos intel can be given to a fleet commander. by an addon which sends intel form near by solor systems.
one could also say that to try and make alliances more realistic you have within the alliances some people with a role which gives them intel form the pos's as to what they see, not everyone in the alliance gets this, just a few people which the alliance (by what ever means they chose) gets this role.
also a verbale setting to warn you when your scaners pick something up, (example: if in a sub the person watching a sonar picked up a signal they report it to the captain.) this should be done also with text but should be in red. (WARNING! Object approching!)
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SpawnSupreme
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:34:00 -
[19]
how about this a 4au radius san static bubble and scanners gazing area gets static frequency??? yeah so of someone willing to spare the cargo space and what ever else to be left alone
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Lynmar Sutek
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:03:00 -
[20]
Overall I like Sir Scorpions idea. It would represent a significant change to the game and I would need to spend a lot of time pondering the details BUT, I agree with the problems he has identified and overall I like the solution.
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:29:00 -
[21]
I posted an idea similar to this one a while back. I believe 0.0 should not have visible local unless you speak in local chat. I believe that systems with NPC stations should have visible local since that 'feed' is provided by the NPC faction with sov. And in high sec concord provides this information to all pilots.
we have a directional scanner that shows out to 14-15au, So that doesn't need to be changed. Would make the stealth game much more fun !
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SpawnSupreme
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:32:00 -
[22]
without probes and launchers i do not see this being implemented not even by a small magin of chance
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Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2008.11.25 16:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Baron Erique
Originally by: Sir Scorpion
For the hunted:
This will help them operate in a assured safety environment, since local will not warn them or the hostile of each others presence, so if the incoming has hostile intentions and scans the target then the target will have a warning time frame for him to take evasive action.
If the incoming dose not have any hostile intentions his scanner will be switched off.
This doesn't make sense. You're saying that hostile intentions can be determined by whether or not someone is scanning your ship. But...how do you see the alleged hostile is scanning you? By scanning them! Which according to your reasoning means YOU have hostile intentions too!
Ah my reasoning will add some spice to it in reality, it will be that few tense moments before you identify if its friend or foe.
Radar warning receiver is a passive device so u donÆt need to be switched on.
This a normal case of Fog Of war, where u do not know till its visual ID, here is a nice example of 2 objects that had each other radar painted, in a tense situation
Linkage to real fog of war
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Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2008.11.25 16:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Several key point are missing in your explanation.
In particular in your image I see:
- distance locked object 10,2 AU range;
- selected object, enables warp to.
So if I get it right your idea is that people will activate the scanner, get a reply in some second and warp to the target (with some inaccuracy), without any need for probes, dedicate modules like probe launchers, bonused ships and so on.
That is your idea of a balance between prey and hunter?
DonÆt account any numbers those are just used as examples, range and resolution will need will be factored in with the probing skills.
I am not sure whether this should eliminate Probing in general, but probing in its current state is too slow, I have an exploration character with max probing skills and a scanning rigged ship, and even with him its near impossible to catch some one b/c they are warned by local before I evin lunch my first probe.
Now Probing without local, is almost a guaranteed death to the pray, before he knows it, he will have a gang on his head at their optimal.
The active scanner caters for both, lets say Active scanners will be for short range, u use your normal scanner to get close and your active to pin point and warp to.
Here is how I see getting close works.
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Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2008.11.25 16:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Why not take it one step further and make it like radar in reallife?
If you set your scanner to active you will have a bigger chance of being detected by other scanners.
And covops/recons would have skills to reduce their scanner signature, so they could have an active scanner with lower chances of being detected.
That way cloakers that are actively searching for you would have a chance to appear on scan, while cloakers that just sit afk wouldn't appear.
Also, all the info you get from the scanner should be logged in some kind of history so if you catch a glimpse of someone somewhere it gets logged, and you can go back and check the log for activity and movement patterns.
As it is now, if someone uncloaks and drops a probe, and I spam the scanner button the ship will appear and then disappear as soon as I press the scanner again.
Btw love your sigs designs specially noriky2 sig, and dimos, might as you for one soon, as you can see my graphics skills are not soo uber 
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Masuke
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Posted - 2008.11.25 17:40:00 -
[26]
Quote:
For the hunted: This will help them operate in a assured safety environment, since local will not warn them or the hostile of each others presence, so if the incoming has hostile intentions and scans the target then the target will have a warning time frame for him to take evasive action. If the incoming dose not have any hostile intentions his scanner will be switched off. Now some might disagree with this but taking such actions will require effort as well, and clocking should not be an option in the formula of risk Vs rewards, I have nothing vs warping back to a station or POS, or hell call some back up.
There is another "safety" for the hunted as well. In real life an active scan is detected by the scanned some time before the scanner gets a positive return. think of a searchlight, you see the light a long time before the light reflects enough from you that you will be visible. This will give the hunted enough time to warp out if he sees a "searchlight" in his general direction.
Another aspect of this is that the hunters can use this as a tactic to herd the hunted into an ambush.
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Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Masuke
There is another "safety" for the hunted as well. In real life an active scan is detected by the scanned some time before the scanner gets a positive return. think of a searchlight, you see the light a long time before the light reflects enough from you that you will be visible. This will give the hunted enough time to warp out if he sees a "searchlight" in his general direction.
Another aspect of this is that the hunters can use this as a tactic to herd the hunted into an ambush.
yep thats only fair if local is to be removed as an intel tool
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Mafaka
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Posted - 2008.11.29 11:25:00 -
[28]
totaly remove local !!!!!!!!
only leave chat option local but without picture and names
probes = too much hussssle,
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Mafaka
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Posted - 2008.12.13 03:05:00 -
[29]
i hate when people dock up as soon as they see u in local - no fun at all
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Fenren
Minmatar
Bure Astro Photography
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Posted - 2008.12.13 11:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mafaka
i hate when people dock up as soon as they see u in local - no fun at all
and having no way to be warned before a gank is sooo fun.
if the scanner doesnt scan all around it is too much in the favour of the attacker. it has to have a funktion to scan all space, althou at a shorter range too.
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