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SwindonBadger
0utbreak
   |
Posted - 2008.11.27 16:24:00 -
[31]
"Rokh, 8x 425mm Railgun II, Spike L
1x Hybrid Locus Rig, 1x Tracking Computer / Optimal Script
2 Mods = 253km Optimal + 30km Falloff
1336 Volley, 194 DPS"
this looks very sweet but how far can u lock with that setup, ? or would being part of a command ship (locking range boost gang) be the only way to tap into the possible hits at 280k?
I remebers the day when 425 rails T2 where megga bucks :) made all the difference who had the balls to fit them and reep the rewards.
Eat Them all, let the digestion sort em out |
Tnam
Caldari
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.11.27 17:02:00 -
[32]
with sniping alpha is king, ppl who are saying their targets are always alpha'd out even by the lowest damaging ships should really work out something about running fleets.... there is no point to alpha any single BS using 40 ships it even fails as killmail whoring...
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SSgt Sniper
Gallente
MAIDS
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Posted - 2008.11.27 18:10:00 -
[33]
Yes the minmatar have been basically rendered a useless race.
The problem is, I don't have enough energy left to campaign for my minmatar character anymore, because CCP just doesn't listen/care.
-------
CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.Poor PR in progress!
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.27 18:20:00 -
[34]
If all the races were the same, I'd stop playing Eve. If you want the bonii of a certain ship, train for it. Be happy minmatar has all three BS focused on either gank or tank/gank. The other races have to do with one or two.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltd0wn
The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.11.27 23:02:00 -
[35]
 Originally by: Grarr Dexx
If all the races were the same, I'd stop playing Eve. If you want the bonii of a certain ship, train for it. Be happy minmatar has all three BS focused on either gank or tank/gank. The other races have to do with one or two.
Sorry, but this is comedy gold. Considering the fact that all three amarrian bs shared the gank/tank role was the main argument for the role change of the Apocalypse.
Swindon: all the partial setups I posted had enough free slots left to get 249km lockrange with gang bonus. I think the Rokh needs two tech2 sensor boosters.
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[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.28 10:48:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 28/11/2008 10:56:56
To those who say that alpha is most useful thing for a sniper I must disagree in all but the situation above where a warp in then off sniper. Reason being dps will catch up to alpha extremely fast and almost all battles will last a lot longer than it takes for dps to catch up. This alpha niche is the role that I would like minmatar bs to fill, but they need to really excell at this (take that ppl whining about everything being the same =p).
I would however like to see a vast improvement to the alpha ability of minmatar via ship bonuses, right now the biggest alpha bs is any of the tier 3 bs's since they can all fit arty. Yes I know mael would out dps them all (though abbadon would out tank it and have load more cap), this is what I fear would happen if arty where given a large boost and as projectiles are the easiest of weapons to fit on non proj ships (aside from missiles).
One reason I believe range is so important is that range can be traded for dps if you get closer, though this only works to a small extent due to t2 ammo being high damage and best long range ammo as well as people not carrying all different varieties of ammo. However their are limited ways to get longer range (look at op's post) and minmatar tend to get shafted having to rely on falloff which isn't boosted by tracking computers.
Rather than ccp change the maels rof bonus to dmg bonus, I don't wanna see it lose dps, I would rather see ships like the pest/munnin. Something like 20-25% dmg bonus and 5% rof penalty per level to make it a true alpha machine while not letting any bs with 8 guns do the same. =s guess this was a little of a derail but that's how I would like to see minmatar bs set up.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Tnam
Caldari
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.11.28 11:59:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Tnam on 28/11/2008 12:00:32
To all these people that say Minmatar is dead, I'll just go right out there and say that seeing as I nearly always fly minmatar, I'm still happy. I don't particularly care about sniping fleets and I would just fly a Rokh if I wanted to do that. I do sometimes snipe, usually in an ECCM fitted tempest as an anti-falcon setup, I always use boosters for range and its really not a problem.
I can accept that sniping is not really what Minmatar do best and be okay with that, its just a specialized area of combat I don't see why races should be equal in this specific thing.
If the whine is a more general "Minmatar Sucks" then I don't agree, I think phoon and Mael are both excellent BS's, tempest is not really but its got some uses for pilots that aren't skilled enough to use a phoon well. Mael is great as a short range gate camper/low-sec sentry tank etc. and when sitting at zero on a gate the falloff from AC's really counts for a lot, you see this because 9/10 times Mael will be top DD in a gank where there is a mixed gang. Phoon is one of the most flexible BS's in game providing you have the skills to fly it well.
Nobody is forcing anybody to use minmatar for sniping...
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:31:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tnam
Edited by: Tnam on 28/11/2008 12:00:32
To all these people that say Minmatar is dead, I'll just go right out there and say that seeing as I nearly always fly minmatar, I'm still happy. I don't particularly care about sniping fleets and I would just fly a Rokh if I wanted to do that. I do sometimes snipe, usually in an ECCM fitted tempest as an anti-falcon setup, I always use boosters for range and its really not a problem.
I can accept that sniping is not really what Minmatar do best and be okay with that, its just a specialized area of combat I don't see why races should be equal in this specific thing.
If the whine is a more general "Minmatar Sucks" then I don't agree, I think phoon and Mael are both excellent BS's, tempest is not really but its got some uses for pilots that aren't skilled enough to use a phoon well. Mael is great as a short range gate camper/low-sec sentry tank etc. and when sitting at zero on a gate the falloff from AC's really counts for a lot, you see this because 9/10 times Mael will be top DD in a gank where there is a mixed gang. Phoon is one of the most flexible BS's in game providing you have the skills to fly it well.
Nobody is forcing anybody to use minmatar for sniping...
Ka-ding.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltd0wn
The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.11.28 16:07:00 -
[39]
@Grarr: still waiting why Minmatar should be glad they have 3 battleships that share the same role, while the same was the reason one of the Amarrian battleships needed a change.
@Tnam: please try to read a topic first before you try to derail it. Makes your effort less hilarious. You argue about points that are not subject to this thread.
But, you mention the Falcon, which can easily gain 228km optimal range on its jammers.
That range is on a more common Tempest fitting in the 25-35% chance to hit region, without even the problem that you'll be jammed first.
But, just for kicks, maybe this is what you use? A Tempest with 228km optimal range!
[Tempest, 228km Optimal Range]
Reactor Control Unit II
Signal Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tuvan's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Projectile Locus Coordinator II
Projectile Locus Coordinator II
Ionic Field Projector II
Implants: Slot 9, Hardwiring - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZGA 1000, +5% Optimal Range
Boosters: Slot 2, Strong Frentix Booster, +20% Optimal Range
--
[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.11.29 22:22:00 -
[40]
Its not the lock range or poor dps that makes Minmatar Sniper BBs sub-par, but rather the lack of alpha they have - a 25% increace in alpha for a 15% loss in RoF would be fine. The small clip size, poor sensor goodies can all be overcome IF they can have their massive alpha.
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ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.11.30 10:21:00 -
[41]
No we cannto afford to loose DPS. Because DPS is more important. And Minmatar ships already have a HUGE drawback in the clip size of 1400mm. 10 shots and reload drops the damage over time to a craptastic low value when compared to its counterparts.
PEople that DARE to say dotn use cap never ever tried to fly a minmatar sniper. Even if we used a TON of cap we would never get out of cap. BEcause every few seconds we need to stop firing reload giving more than enough time to refill cap (remember in a fleet fight you will take from 16 to 30 seconds to reload on GOOD conditions of server.
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.11.30 11:08:00 -
[42]
caples turets? how about ships with 25% less cap ? thats advantage?^^
Quote:
It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Suicide Joe
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.30 11:50:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Virgo I'Platonicus
Edited by: Virgo I''Platonicus on 26/11/2008 07:27:32
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Maelstrom, 8x 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
3x Projectile Locus Rigs, 4x Tracking Computer / Optimal Script, 4x Tracking Enhancer
11 Mods = 167km Optimal + 44km Falloff
2933 Volley, 230 DPS
Hm. As far as i can tell from your numbers, this thing gives out 1466.5 alpha at 211 km = 115 dps.
Looks minny dps to me - high alpha, actually highest of all, while crap dps. Checks out.
Highest DPS at 167km and keeps the first place in dps for a about 10km to 177 km. The ship can snipe but not best of all ships.
As the minny ships are the lightest and most quick on their feet while having bonuses to tackling modules and speed, i believe giving them a dps boost would be overkill. If you're in for dps, look for amarr/gallente.
Change the mubers to the way you would like them to be and we'll see where it gets us.
V.
Just for accuracy: At 100% of fall-off it is not 50% dps/alpha - easy mistake, it's effectivly 37.5% (50% chance of hit * 75% average hit damage)
So at 211km it's 1100 alpha / 86.25 dps
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PolyTensor
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Posted - 2008.11.30 11:51:00 -
[44]
A thing i would like to add to the discussion:
-Minmatar ships (the armor tanked ones) have the smallest signatures, so thats improving the tank via hitquality and locking times.
but i do not know how much this effects the incoming dps. anyone got rough numbers for that?
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltd0wn
The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.12.01 04:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: PolyTensor
A thing i would like to add to the discussion:
-Minmatar ships (the armor tanked ones) have the smallest signatures, so thats improving the tank via hitquality and locking times.
but i do not know how much this effects the incoming dps. anyone got rough numbers for that?
The weapon signature resolution vs target ship signature radius ratio is only a multiplier within the tracking formula for turrets, not a procentual damage decrease as with missiles.
As tracking is largely irrelevant at 150-220km ranges, this is no real issue for turret sniper fleets, apart from a very very minor advantage in locking time.
A 5% optimal range bonus would set 1400 howitzer/tremor + 2 tracking comps/range script at 175.5km optimal. A 7.5% bonus would result in 193km. Hmmmmmmm.
--
[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.01 07:10:00 -
[46]
I'm sorry, what? All I read was this part: 2933 Volley, 230 DPS
You were saying?
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.12.01 08:06:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I'm sorry, what? All I read was this part: 2933 Volley, 230 DPS
You were saying?
if you want dps you should try abbadon it does roughly 22% more damage than the mael, hyperion will outdamage it as well and still have more range. caldari don't have a higher damage bs though.
seriously though you should realise that of the 4 bs's that where in op only mael and mega have damage bonus and mega has 7 turrets.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.12.01 10:43:00 -
[48]
Will try to explain simple way why alpha advantage as it is doe snot compensate anything for arties.
You will cause a lot more damage on the first battleship. It will pop almost instantly. As it woudl even if you had no artie ships in gang. Current fleet sized with 80+ battleships ensure that. Then the secondary will be locked. And will be killed even before your guns cycle! By 3rd target again you get a lot of damage and high on killmail.. and this continues. Until 10th target when your ammo is out and you need to reload. Then lag ensures that you will stay 5 minutes without firing.
At end of fight you dealt 1/2 the damage any other sniper would.
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.12.01 10:48:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Current fleet sized with 80+ battleships ensure that. Then the secondary will be locked.
So arty sucks because all fleets have 80+ BS? Not all fleets are of that size where alpha DOES matter.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] The Cruise |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltd0wn
The Black Isle
|
Posted - 2008.12.01 12:07:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I'm sorry, what? All I read was this part: 2933 Volley, 230 DPS
You were saying?
I was saying it could be a volley of 10'000, it does not help you if you do not have the range to hit. A problem you should be very familiar with, considering how you advocated for better Blasterthron acceleration values so it could close the distance in the first QR feedback threads.
Fitting the four battleships mentioned in the OP with 3 range mods/rigs, the Maelstrom loses 25.76% optimal range against the average for a gain of 6.85% dps. Or in absolute numbers, -52.75km for +14.75dps (= +0.28dps per -1km). Also +41.94% falloff, just for completeness sake.
If you calculate the average with a 2 range mods (+1 additional fitting mod) Tachyon Apoc instead of the 3 range mod Megabeam Apoc, you get -25.94% optimal, +36.43% falloff, +4.66% dps against the average.
Comparing the performance at a sniping distance of 200km, 3 range mods/rigs, 0 damage mods:
Apocalypse (Megabeam Aurora): 225 dps, optimal 210, falloff 20 [125 dps]
Rokh (425 Spike): 194 dps optimal 274, falloff 30 [136 dps]
Megathron (425 Spike): 170 dps, optimal 183, falloff 30 [119 dps]
Maelstrom (1400 Tremor): 103 dps, optimal 152, falloff 44 [87 dps]
Values in [] are against base tech 1 armor resistances EM/THM/KIN/EXP 50/35/25/10. Against the resisted average of these 4 battleships, the Maelstrom has -25.48% dps. It also loses 7.4% of its dps if you take into account reloading times, whereas the Rokh loses 3.6%, the Megathron only 3.3% and the Apocalypse obviously 0%.
That I was saying.
--
[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
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Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.02 02:52:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Random Womble on 02/12/2008 02:55:20
Edited by: Random Womble on 02/12/2008 02:53:46
Minmatar sniping was killed when scripts were introduced due to 4 factors to do with sniping
tracking
lock time
optimal
lock range
Artys have both the lowest optimal and tracking which means more tracking comps and enhancers are needed than any other race however since tracking comps scrips now mean you have to have double the number of comps for the same effect that hits hard on the mid slots. On top of that all other races have atleast one ship now that gives a bonus to one of these 2 factors minmatar dont.
Next onto locking range/time well ok time is useful but range is more important and again range minmatar is worse yes we lock faster but also the diffrences in lock range when compaired with locking time between ships does not add up
I now these are not all the same tier so that has some bearing and i have included both Apoc and Abaddon and Mael and tempest as all 4 are not uncommon snipers the percentages represent the advantages over the worst ship present so higher is better for everything figures are base and take no skills, mods ect into account.
Locking Range:
Rokh 90 | 45.2%
Apoc 67 | 8.1%
Abaddon 80 | 29%
Mega 72 | 16.1%
Tempest 62 | 0%
Mael 75 | 21%
Scan Resolution:
Rokh 75 | 0%
Apoc 95 | 26.7%
Abaddon 85 | 13.3%
Mega 95 | 26.7%
Tempest 100 | 33.3%
Mael 90 | 20%
Now while as i said these represent diffrent tiers it should be fairly obvious that the increases in targeting range make more significant diffrence than the increase in scan resolution and if your still in doubt its very easy to explain since the increament in both is 5 (normally), 5km to lock range and 5mms to scan resolution however because the 5kms is a much higher percentage of the lowest lock range 8.1% rather than 6.6% the effect quickly makes a much more significant diffrence.
Also as stated earlier lock time can be useful however in laggy fleet fights even if they are not so laggy now the effect is very barely noticable if at all while the lock range dictates so much and even if lock range was increamented equally to scan resolution minmatar would still not really gain very much in sniping fleets.
As for what to do to make arty useful its hard to say really making all the races the same would suck at the same time it would be nice to see the long ranged guns more balanced in terms of good tracking ****ty optimal, faloff bonuses from tracking computers and possibly also enhancers would help and since tracking disruptors now have a falloff effect make sense.
Also if anyone has or wants to bring out the very very stupid you can chose damage types thing bear in mind the minimum types we can choose at once is two and regularly we do 3 damages which while hard to specifically tank also means you cant specifically choose a damage to kill someone secondly T2 ammo is only kinetic and explosive damage and thirdly the damage varies with range like other races so normally you dont gain anything from switching damage type its normally lost in the range based damage reduction fourthly since range is allready a major issue i really dont think we could switch out to EMP.
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SecHaul
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Posted - 2008.12.02 03:39:00 -
[52]
Minmatar and sniping will never work since Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers only apply to optimal. Sniping battleships fit rigs with modules to get those ranges, which is not applicable to Minmatar. I have no idea why CCP think Tracking Disruptors impacting falloff, but TC's / TE's only applying to optimal is balanced, but that is how it is. Even if they did fix it, we would still be fighting in falloff with reduced DPS.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 06:15:00 -
[53]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 01/12/2008 12:18:35
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I'm sorry, what? All I read was this part: 2933 Volley, 230 DPS
You were saying?
I was saying it could be a volley of 10'000, it does not help you if you do not have the range to hit. A problem you should be very familiar with, considering how you advocated for better Blasterthron acceleration values so it could close the distance in the first QR feedback threads.
Fitting the four battleships mentioned in the OP with 3 range mods/rigs, the Maelstrom loses 25.76% optimal range against the average for a gain of 6.85% dps. Or in absolute numbers, -52.75km for +14.75dps (= +0.28dps per -1km). Also +41.94% falloff, just for completeness sake.
If you calculate the average with a 2 range mods (+1 additional fitting mod) Tachyon Apoc instead of the 3 range mod Megabeam Apoc, you get -25.94% optimal, +36.43% falloff, +4.66% dps against the average.
Comparing the performance at a sniping distance of 200km, 3 range mods/rigs, 0 damage mods:
Apocalypse (Megabeam Aurora): 225 dps, optimal 210, falloff 20 [125 dps]
Rokh (425 Spike): 194 dps optimal 274, falloff 30 [136 dps]
Megathron (425 Spike): 170 dps, optimal 183, falloff 30 [119 dps]
Maelstrom (1400 Tremor): 103 dps, optimal 152, falloff 44 [87 dps]
Values in [] are against base tech 1 armor resistances EM/THM/KIN/EXP 50/35/25/10. Against the resisted average of these 4 battleships, the Maelstrom has -25.48% dps. It also loses 7.4% of its dps if you take into account reloading times, whereas the Rokh loses 3.6%, the Megathron only 3.3% and the Apocalypse obviously 0%.
That I was saying.
[Edit]
Oh, and the Megathron and Maelstrom numbers are without hit quality degration due to falloff. So it is even worse as the Maelstrom is slightly beyond single falloff already at 200km. So it's more in the area of 77.25 dps against no resistances and 65.25 dps against base tech 1 resistances.
Get your CovOps pilots to give you a warp in at an effective range. If you can warp in on the targets at 220km, you can warp in a squad at 160km as well. Heck, you could even use the SAME warp in point. Sit at 120km from the enemy fleet, one group warps in at 100km from the CovOps and then the Maelstroms warp in at 40km from the same CovOps, complete with it's own support units.
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Tnam
Caldari
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 11:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
@Grarr: still waiting why Minmatar should be glad they have 3 battleships that share the same role, while the same was the reason one of the Amarrian battleships needed a change.
@Tnam: please try to read a topic first before you try to derail it. Makes your effort less hilarious. You argue about points that are not subject to this thread.
But, you mention the Falcon, which can easily gain 228km optimal range on its jammers.
That range is on a more common Tempest fitting in the 25-35% chance to hit region, without even the problem that you'll be jammed first.
But, just for kicks, maybe this is what you use? A Tempest with 228km optimal range!
[Tempest, 228km Optimal Range]
Reactor Control Unit II
Signal Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tuvan's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Projectile Locus Coordinator II
Projectile Locus Coordinator II
Ionic Field Projector II
Implants: Slot 9, Hardwiring - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZGA 1000, +5% Optimal Range
Boosters: Slot 2, Strong Frentix Booster, +20% Optimal Range
Haha, I don't fit a tempest like that and also I don't care about 228km optimal range at all, well done for proving your worthyness as an EFT warrior though :) I have about 181km optimal in a tempest and 44km falloff and I defy any falcon to sit at 228 and jam stuff with me shooting them.
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BiggestT
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.02 14:45:00 -
[55]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
CCP does not attempt to maintain balance on a 2 attributes vs 2 attributes or even on a ship vs ship basis.
E.g. a race' weak battleships may be balanced by having strong cruisers.
So, you are saying, having the strongest EW and the only EW battleships should have been enough for Caldari and the Tier 3 battleship introduction was uncalled for, as other ships balanced the lack of a caldari direct damage fleet battleship?
Right....
Wait..Your saying Caldari are overpowered?
Am i missing something??
EVE history
t2 precisions |
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