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kalath1032
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:04:00 -
[1]
I find that the war dec system in eve is a joke all that happens is people leave a alt in the corp and jump ship to a newb corp where they cant be attacked. Also you get 3 year old mission running carebears being 100% safe cos you cant attack them at all by any means now (ie lofty gangs etc)
CCP need to add a new set of NPC corps which can be war decced, say for example you get asked to leave the current invicible newb corps after 6-8 months and get moved to one of these war deccable NPC corps which forces you to either join a player corp or create one, where you can be war decced etc
TBH i expect a load of moans from these types of people - (they tend to just sit on forums and mission run all day) but chnages need to be made, people who sit in newb corps trading in freigthers, mission running etc need to not be 100% safe its unfair and wrecks the essence of eve and mocks the war dec system
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:22:00 -
[2]
Agreed. Been saying this for 3 years, too, but CCP strictly stands by the anti-Eve style of play.
Corp jumping:
War declaration flags should persist per pilot, following them into whatever corp they jump to (for the pilot alone, but new corp can support the pilot with the appropriate aggression flags) for the duration of that war cycle. The same should go for corps jumping alliances.
NPC homesteaders:
Newb schools shoul automatically shift all pilots to their appropriate NPC corp after 6 months. NPC corps should instil heavy taxes over time.
Also:
Newb schools - Level 1-3 missions only. L3 agents quality max = 0. No mining barges. No industrial capital ships.
NPC corps - All agents max qualty = 0. No Exhumers or industrial caps (freighter, JF, Orca) but can be trained. +10% tax on all transactions (market, mission, refine, & escrow) per month in corp.
These changes won't kill the game for any of the players currently hiding in NPC corps, as it will create hundreds of new small corps & alliances that can easly skate under the worst 'war dec everything' radar of empire PvP'ers. But it WILL force the elements that everybody hates (farmers/macro-miners) out of NPC protection where they can be hunted properly.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:32:00 -
[3]
/facepalm
Here we go again.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.11.26 18:04:00 -
[4]
This has always been a good idea. IMO new players should be allowed to insure their ships for 6 months and stay in the noob NPC corp for the same amount of time, after which they are moved to a 'veteran' NPC corp that is continually involved in factional warfare.
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Resivan
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Posted - 2008.11.27 05:34:00 -
[5]
You can not force people to play the game the way you want them to, you can only force them to stop playing.
CCP is a business. They exist to make money for their investors. Eve is just a means to that end. Forcing people to stop playing is not in their interest.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.27 07:53:00 -
[6]
While i can understand that avoiding wardeccing might be a bit easy, it should only be changed when wardeccing system is changed. Because like it or not (/me gets his flameproof suit), wardeccing is pay to grief atm.
For 2M a week you can harass a mining corp for as long as you want.
---------------------------------------------
 Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Nikita Alterana
The Antikythera Mechanism
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Posted - 2008.11.27 08:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Agreed. Been saying this for 3 years, too, but CCP strictly stands by the anti-Eve style of play.
Corp jumping:
War declaration flags should persist per pilot, following them into whatever corp they jump to (for the pilot alone, but new corp can support the pilot with the appropriate aggression flags) for the duration of that war cycle. The same should go for corps jumping alliances.
NPC homesteaders:
Newb schools shoul automatically shift all pilots to their appropriate NPC corp after 6 months. NPC corps should instil heavy taxes over time.
Also:
Newb schools - Level 1-3 missions only. L3 agents quality max = 0. No mining barges. No industrial capital ships.
NPC corps - All agents max qualty = 0. No Exhumers or industrial caps (freighter, JF, Orca) but can be trained. +10% tax on all transactions (market, mission, refine, & escrow) per month in corp.
These changes won't kill the game for any of the players currently hiding in NPC corps, as it will create hundreds of new small corps & alliances that can easly skate under the worst 'war dec everything' radar of empire PvP'ers. But it WILL force the elements that everybody hates (farmers/macro-miners) out of NPC protection where they can be hunted properly.
this I support
__________________________________________________
I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it!
I'm also training Minmatar Capitals!
And I eat Lions! |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 08:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Resivan
You can not force people to play the game the way you want them to, you can only force them to stop playing.
CCP is a business. They exist to make money for their investors. Eve is just a means to that end. Forcing people to stop playing is not in their interest.
How is anyone being "forced" to do anything?
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.27 08:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
/facepalm
Here we go again.
This.
All your promoting with another one of these ridiculous proposals is a massive zerg of 1 man corps.
-=^=-
"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:39:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jah''Ret Khan on 27/11/2008 11:39:42
All CCP need to do is create a 20% noob corp tax level.
They also have to ensure the level for "non taxable earnings" is set so that complete noobs won't be affected but older players running lvl3s and 4s and such will be inconvenianced.
This incentivizes older players to move out of the noob corp so as to be able to earn in line with other players.
**************************
We go ZOOM-ZOOM!
You go BOOM-BOOM!
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Rsorh Nalozigur
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:57:00 -
[11]
You want to war dec players in noob corp, why?
to grif them? why? you have personal grudge against someone in noob corp? suicide gank them and if you don't want to do that and still want to hurt them go get some fresh air outside and manage your personal vendetta elsewhere.
@suggestion of taxing noob corp members, if we do that can we also give them almost all other benefits of being in a corp like if someone stole from a container/wreck of a noob corp member other noob corp members can hunt the thief down and benefits like that?
Thing is if people are in noob corp long after the character creation , it could mean many things like player are being harassed by people like you and only option they have is take shelter in noob corp and by doing this they are loosing way too much like the benefits player corporation members have. It could also be due to many other reasons so why not try to find out those reasons instead trying to make them leave the game and enjoy the game with all the player corporation members only while CCP is getting bankrupt due to all the canceled subscriptions.
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Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:09:00 -
[12]
With two of the CSM in noobcorps, I don't think you'll get anywhere.
As for the actual reasons why I oppose this idea, you can look in one of the similar whine threads about this topic.
And wardecs are indeed a joke, CCP called them pay-to-grief for a reason. What exactly do you expect that happens if a band of PVPers decs a defenseless industrial corp? And what's the point of deccing and ganking individual NPC corp players with a blob? It's just senseless griefing and won't get my support.
---
NEW MOVIE! CSM Campaign Thread |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:22:00 -
[13]
I personally don't want to wardec noobs.
I think there is a serious mechanic fault that lets griefers hide in untouchable organizations when "real corp" griefers can be wardecced and punished for being annoying.
**************************
We go ZOOM-ZOOM!
You go BOOM-BOOM!
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Resivan
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Resivan
You can not force people to play the game the way you want them to, you can only force them to stop playing.
CCP is a business. They exist to make money for their investors. Eve is just a means to that end. Forcing people to stop playing is not in their interest.
How is anyone being "forced" to do anything?
If I wanted to be in a player corp I'd be in one (I'm a returning player, I could go back to my old one, the people I gave my old characters to offered to return them), but that's not what I want out of the game right now. I'll join a player corp or start a one-man when I reach the point where I want to do something that the existing restrictions on NPC corps don't permit.
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Bunyip
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Posted - 2008.11.27 18:49:00 -
[15]
I'm not saying that there aren't griefers and macroers in NPC corps, as that's obvious. What I am saying is that players should be able to play this game the way they want to, even if it means solo.
I've played the corp/alliance game, and it's not for me. The politics and wardecs are a headache to an industrialist. I don't think a 5% or so tax is going too far, but 20%+ taxes? Please.
If you don't like players being in NPC corps, give them a reason why your corp is superior to NPC corps. If this idea is implemented, we'll wind up with a ton of one-person corps, and a ton of lost subscriptions from CCP to go along with it.
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.27 19:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bunyip
I'm not saying that there aren't griefers and macroers in NPC corps, as that's obvious. What I am saying is that players should be able to play this game the way they want to, even if it means solo.
I've played the corp/alliance game, and it's not for me. The politics and wardecs are a headache to an industrialist. I don't think a 5% or so tax is going too far, but 20%+ taxes? Please.
If you don't like players being in NPC corps, give them a reason why your corp is superior to NPC corps. If this idea is implemented, we'll wind up with a ton of one-person corps, and a ton of lost subscriptions from CCP to go along with it.
I disagree.
Players who find themselves 'capped' in NPC corps (not booted out, just capped) will eventaully get fed up with the cap and move outward to progress upward. From skill-limited learning corps to earnings-limited NPC corps to unlimited, uncapped Player corps.
So what if we get a zerg swarm of 1 man corps, the game can handle it. You'll also get zerg swarms of 1 man alliances, so be it (put minimum starting membership numbers on alliances to limit the number of zergling alliances).
I'm not saying 'kick them out', nor am I saying 'make them war-declarable', just give them incentives to expand, or disincentives to stay. Currently there are none. None, at all, whatsoever. Yeah, so they can't erect a POS in Empire, wow... big deal. That's pretty much it.
And your classic 'macro' farmers won't leave, making it easier for CCP to find out who they are and deal with them. Macro farmers in PC corps can simply be declared against... just make sure the flag sticks to them, otherwise they'll jump corps every 48 hours (101st, anyone?) to avoid any and all combat.
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kalath1032
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.27 22:55:00 -
[17]
Edited by: kalath1032 on 27/11/2008 22:56:56
Well its say it all really doesn't it the two CSM members complaining are carebears, let me guess you fly round in freigthers or a golem and laugh as all the people who want to kill you.
Kicking / overtaxing noob corps wont mean for the mission bears that they instantly get war decced it means people have a chance of war deccing them. it ruins the whole war dec system when people can shift into noob corps to hide
Why should mission runners be 100%. Tbh i wish the max quality of agents in high sec would be 0 generally to force people out of high sec
kinda like roid types try (but fail)to do
I admit i war dec mission runner to kill them but why the hell shouldn't i be allowed to im only one man, i war dec 15 man corps, so in theory they shoudl easily be able to kill me
Its just the fact there scraed they might loose theirs iskies
If you dont want to do this then bring back the lofy mechanics. Its unfair that these guys are 100% and spend all there eve life in these corps while piracy in low sec isn't great
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Fahtim Meidires
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.28 01:37:00 -
[18]
Add a tax to anyone in an NPC corp, starting at zero and slowing growing to a maximum of 25% as a function of their age in EVE. Something like:
1 Month: 5%
3 Month: 10%
6 Month: 15%
1 Year: 20%
2 Years: 25%
As long as the wardec system is so called 'pay to attack', NPC corps should be 'pay to be safe'.
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Anarich
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Posted - 2008.11.28 03:23:00 -
[19]
Currently it is too cheap to wardec a corp, 1-2m a week(basically free), even a starting account can make that. For that price a pirate or pvp veteran corp can cost industrial/mining/newb/small corp millions to billions. Maybe if it was raised to more like 20m a week or maybe 100m a week. It's just too cheap. You force people into corporations, they are going to quit. Some don't like the politics of corps or being bossed around by another. As far as macros and farmers, you won't be able to force them out. All they need to do is create another account and they could also still hide under a large alliance. The people you really are going to hurt are the non-pvp types and the new players and seriously at 6 months you don't have good enough skills to handle yourself out in the wild against people with 3+ years worth of skills. Piracy is dead because there is no profit in low sec. It has the same value as high sec or less, but with all the risk of 0 sec. Veldsar is worth more per m3 than kernite and all other high/low sec ores. And there isn't sufficient bonus in mission value for doing low sec agents. Plus low sec doesn't have the sweet ores, moons etc of 0 sec. Seriously if you want to go fight someone go to 0 sec and stop complaining.
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Hesod Adee
KDS Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 04:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
These changes won't kill the game for any of the players currently hiding in NPC corps, as it will create hundreds of new small corps & alliances that can easly skate under the worst 'war dec everything' radar of empire PvP'ers.
Unless they enjoy chatting with random people in the NPC corp.
Quote:
But it WILL force the elements that everybody hates (farmers/macro-miners) out of NPC protection where they can be hunted properly.
Yes, you just war dec each macro pilot individually because each pilot is in its own corp.
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I support skill queues |
I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.11.28 05:42:00 -
[21]
Edited by: I SoStoned on 28/11/2008 05:43:03
Originally by: Hesod Adee
Originally by: Mister Xerox
But it WILL force the elements that everybody hates (farmers/macro-miners) out of NPC protection where they can be hunted properly.
Yes, you just war dec each macro pilot individually because each pilot is in its own corp.
Too true, too true. But finding 5 separate corps mining into 1 jetcan scooped by an Orca in a 6th corp would scream: I'm a macro! Perhaps CCP might get off its ass and take a look, follow their transactions.
And I can make back my 2m wardec fee by popping just one of those macks, or just sit my alt in their system so that their macro keeps them docked while I go to work.
IMO they need to bring back the 'joining a gang with a warred party makes you open to attack' hole that Lofty screwed up so brilliantly. That way when the Orca tractors I can shoot it. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.28 10:49:00 -
[22]
1: Taxation of a NPC Corp = Stupid
Why: ISK is too easy to make.... and the worst case scenario is you lose your playerbase. Not to mention your bloody idea is biased and completely based on the fact you seek 24/7 PVP'ing and war-dec's up the wazoo.
2: War-dec's are too cheap = fact
It's too easy to form a corp... mind your own damn business.. some hot shot corp see's 3 of your members flying battleships for the first time... they get war-dec'ed..griefed.. all in the name of "fun" but no one ever thinks of the other side.. and they call this " its a sandbox... deal with it" Well sorry to say... most players don't think that way....
3: This thread = stupid/repeat
Sorry... do a search... you'll see this is the 1000th time its been asked.
all result in a no-win situation...
The solution is lies in war-dec'ing ITSELF... not the corps.
I have no problem with war-decing...
My biggest problem is there's nothing to stop the war-dec's from being stacked....repeated...and dumped on.. for the most utterly stupid ideas on the planet... other than smack talk or something "rational".
And what is the most frequent suggestions made?
1: You poor baby.... go join a bigger corp.
Counter: Well gee... so no more new corps being made. So much for new stuff in EVE!
2: Hire a Merc Corp
Counter: Got the money for that? We just started!
3: Ditch your corp and leave an alt
Counter: Thats even worse!
4: Go to 0.0 space!
Counter: You just bankrupted us! Thanks.... we can go to 0.0 ON NOTHING.
So yes.... thats just the tip of the iceberg of reasons... carebear or not.
You guys need to find a middle ground or you will never get anywhere.
Yes there are exploits.... but punishing NPC corps is completely wrong.
You need to fix the war-dec system and how it functions.
And you can forget attacking the macro problem... i don't care how you spin it... you will always make them stronger or short change the legitimate guys.
Start thinking 100 steps ahead of your short sightedness.
Put yourself in the shoes of the individual your affecting before you go off on some wild harebrained idea.
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2008.11.28 15:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
With two of the CSM in noobcorps, I don't think you'll get anywhere.
Actualy with rest of CSM not in noobcorps, and few of us mentioning this particular issue in our campaign presentations, this issue will be aproached, but very carefully. We need to fix current wardec system, without allowing more griefing of noobies, but to prevent people hiding in NPC corps for eternity.
Diversity we have atm in CSM is great for issues like this when thoughts are drasticly divided. Needless to say, that is allowing us to look at both sides of the medal and to aproach problem from every possible aspect.
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.11.28 16:44:00 -
[24]
All this complaining about the war declaration system is bunk, just an empty excuse not to join The Game as it was intended.
Noobcorps were never intended to be the ultmate umbrella of immunity, same for NPC corps. It's a place to start offering immunity at a heavy cost for a limited period of time. Pretty much every game system (solo or multi) have a 'starting zone' but to get very far in the game you have to leave the starting zone.
NPC corps offer the same immunity, at a similar cost, while you're looking for a new Team or making a Team of your own (even if it's an Army of One).
Currently war declaration is far from easy, nor is it fast *HAH*! You guys saying its fast are a joke... it's 48 hours, minimum, to initiate a war. Obviously you've never declared one or paid for one on your own, or hired a merc corp.
Possible changes to the war declaration system? Like what?
Last year I mentioned that we already have an existing system that could be modified to make war far more dynamic: The Contract system. Turn war into a Contract, with counter-offers and other requirements that, when met, end the war in 30 minutes rather than 24 hours. Currently any diplomacy has to be conducted on the meta-game level.
Make it more expensive? NO! my gods... you've already limited the number of wars one can have by exponential costs (Thanks bunches, Privateers), and it takes 48 hours to get one going, and if your target doesn't want to fight they don't have to... they sit in station, log, or move. Often times a war corp won't see a single member of a 200 man corp until 10 minutes after it lapses... or the targets just jump corp.
That is a design that needs changing with any other changes to warfare... corp jumping to escape wars needs to cease. Often times 'nuubcorps' are wardecced by 'mercs' because one of their nitwits smacktalks or steals... and that nitwit jumps leaving the rest of the corp to deal with their actions.
Another reason people who do war want people in declarable corporations is smacktalk and thieves hiding under the protection of NPC corp skirts. There is currently NO WAY to deal with them. Having a nuubspy in an NPC corp scouting you at a gate is bad enough since you can't get rid of them, but someone that hides in an NPC corp and smacktalks all day long is downright annoying for anyone outside of 0.0 (and yes, I reside in 0.0, I have fought wars in all security levels, even FW).
There are many reasons players want NPC corps capped, many want them outright declarable, and there are no valid counter arguments to let them stay there without paying a cost for the immunity which is what they now enjoy.
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deadEd
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2008.11.28 17:47:00 -
[25]
NPC taxes aren't the solution - that ultimately just becomes a way to "pay" to avoid a large part of the game (dealing with other player corps).
Honestly there's no reason why anyone older than a few months should need to be in an undeccable corp. If you can't find anyone to run with at all in that time, then something's pretty much wrong with you, not the game. The only support I see for the issue is generally from the same type of people who don't want to deal with the risk of playing the game. It'll be a glorious day when those types of opinions are just ignored completely.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Art of War
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:16:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 29/11/2008 00:17:38
3 year old player should have found join/create new corp button already. I'm pretty sad for them who haven't :p
So definetly supporting the basic idea. And tax for npc corps. Oh yeah baby.
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Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.11.29 03:40:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 29/11/2008 03:41:31
Originally by: deadEd
NPC taxes aren't the solution - that ultimately just becomes a way to "pay" to avoid a large part of the game (dealing with other player corps).
Honestly there's no reason why anyone older than a few months should need to be in an undeccable corp. If you can't find anyone to run with at all in that time, then something's pretty much wrong with you, not the game.
Or you have no interest in others, just like kewl internet spaceships?
Originally by: deadEd
The only support I see for the issue is generally from the same type of people who don't want to deal with the risk of playing the game. It'll be a glorious day when those types of opinions are just ignored completely.
CCP I'm pretty sure are aware of this issue. MAYBE they've even heard of it before this thread... 
Not sure how much action your going to get out of them since they are a business and this just *might* affect their bottom line, as there are a BUNCH of people (apparently enough to complain about) that don't want to play this way...
I'm just sayin'...
AK
Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Ethics, Honor and Respect. Without the first two, you can't buy the last one...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.29 10:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: kalath1032
I find that the war dec system in eve is a joke all that happens is people leave a alt in the corp and jump ship to a newb corp where they cant be attacked. Also you get 3 year old mission running carebears being 100% safe cos you cant attack them at all by any means now (ie lofty gangs etc)
CCP need to add a new set of NPC corps which can be war decced, say for example you get asked to leave the current invicible newb corps after 6-8 months and get moved to one of these war deccable NPC corps which forces you to either join a player corp or create one, where you can be war decced etc
TBH i expect a load of moans from these types of people - (they tend to just sit on forums and mission run all day) but chnages need to be made, people who sit in newb corps trading in freigthers, mission running etc need to not be 100% safe its unfair and wrecks the essence of eve and mocks the war dec system
"Whaa, people don't want to pay this game to be my targets2 thread number 1 million +
Care to give any reason to support your argument beside "but changes need to be made", a totally unsubstantiated argument based on your gaming preferences?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.29 10:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Agreed. Been saying this for 3 years, too, but CCP strictly stands by the anti-Eve style of play.
Corp jumping:
War declaration flags should persist per pilot, following them into whatever corp they jump to (for the pilot alone, but new corp can support the pilot with the appropriate aggression flags) for the duration of that war cycle. The same should go for corps jumping alliances.
NPC homesteaders:
Newb schools shoul automatically shift all pilots to their appropriate NPC corp after 6 months. NPC corps should instil heavy taxes over time.
Also:
Newb schools - Level 1-3 missions only. L3 agents quality max = 0. No mining barges. No industrial capital ships.
NPC corps - All agents max qualty = 0. No Exhumers or industrial caps (freighter, JF, Orca) but can be trained. +10% tax on all transactions (market, mission, refine, & escrow) per month in corp.
These changes won't kill the game for any of the players currently hiding in NPC corps, as it will create hundreds of new small corps & alliances that can easly skate under the worst 'war dec everything' radar of empire PvP'ers. But it WILL force the elements that everybody hates (farmers/macro-miners) out of NPC protection where they can be hunted properly.
PVP pilot (anyone starting combat with another pilot) not allowed to get any mission as they are clearly homicidal psychopaths (in EVE, not RL).
These change won't kill the game for any of the PVP players as they will easily create PVE alt to accept the mission that will be done by the PVP main.
See how your logic can be used for really stupid arguments like yours?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.29 11:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: I SoStoned
Originally by: Hesod Adee
Originally by: Mister Xerox
But it WILL force the elements that everybody hates (farmers/macro-miners) out of NPC protection where they can be hunted properly.
Yes, you just war dec each macro pilot individually because each pilot is in its own corp.
Too true, too true. But finding 5 separate corps mining into 1 jetcan scooped by an Orca in a 6th corp would scream: I'm a macro! Perhaps CCP might get off its ass and take a look, follow their transactions.
Wrong as usual Stoned.
It scream "We are all the property of 1 player" or even "We were a industrial corp but after the last wardec we decided to split 6 ways to make life more difficult for the griefers".
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