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Read this and weep.. RMT is a billion-dollar industry

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Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:11:00 - [1] Here's a Wired article I found on Digg. It blew my mind. Anyone who thinks the RMT trade can be stopped or even slowed down is dreaming. Just read the article.
Rob Eagle eXtended Amarr Research 24	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:16:00 - [2] If the internet dies, so does their industry :)
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:22:00 - [3] A head of IGE lives in LA? Fire ze Missiles! Also, here is another recent story to do with RMT, specifically the spectre of taxation that wanders about every so often ...
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:23:00 - [4] The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:27:00 - [5] If you get through all 10,000 pages of the Wired article, it does say that IGE is basically dead and the 'dream' of having a legitimate business out of this is pretty much dead. Any publisher that allows RMT is going to do it themselves because it's worth more than the damn subscriptions. But just think of the size of the market... a BILLION dollars or more a year. With that much money at stake, there's no way the 'grey' market is ever going to stop. All I can say is thank God I don't play WoW. If a niche game like Eve attracts so much RMT spam, life in WoW must be truly awful. I do think the GTC system that CCP have come up with is probably as good a compromise as any. What I would really love to know is whether they make more money from subs or from GTCs.... Scary.
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:31:00 - [6] Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. no, the MMO companies need to enforce their damn EULA's. put a clause in the EULA that states (in proper legal jargon) that if you get caught selling isk for $$$, you get a fine of $500,000USD or whatever CCP thinks they can get away with. then set up a department to mercilessly hunt down these people and extract the money from them. i guarantee it will pay for itself, and maybe CCP can afford to lower subs after then catch a few of these people - PvPers always say "GB2WoW". the message is that EVE is hard, and people just need to deal with it. wasn't it funny how when nano's started making it hard for them, that all went out the window?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:42:00 - [7] God invented RTAs for guys like this. - DesuSigs
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Sir Substance Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. no, the MMO companies need to enforce their damn EULA's. put a clause in the EULA that states (in proper legal jargon) that if you get caught selling isk for $$$, you get a fine of $500,000USD or whatever CCP thinks they can get away with. then set up a department to mercilessly hunt down these people and extract the money from them. i guarantee it will pay for itself, and maybe CCP can afford to lower subs after then catch a few of these people The only people who agree to the EULAs are the farmers at the very bottom of the tree. They live in countries without effective legal systems for stuff like this, and they haven't got any money anyway. Nobody in the management of these companies has played any of these games and certainly haven't agreed to any EULAs. Hitting their websites isn't going to do anything either. Again, their ISPs will not observe takedown notices and the RMT guys can create new sites much faster than the MMO guys can take them down. The only way this can be fixed is to drag every 3rd world country on the planet into the 21st century and therefore make legal stuff enforceable. And that's never going to happen.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Tiirae The only way this can be fixed is to drag every 3rd world country on the planet into the 21st century and therefore make legal stuff enforceable. And that's never going to happen. Or drag all the 1st world countries back out of the 21st century and just bomb the **** out of them. We're making more headway in that direction. - DesuSigs
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc	Posted - 2008.11.27 01:02:00 - [10] In terms of the global economy, a billion dollars is not much. ----------------------------------------------------
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.27 01:17:00 - [11] Toothpicks are a billion dollar industry... _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Toothpicks are a billion dollar industry... Originally by: Farrellus Cameron In terms of the global economy, a billion dollars is not much. Well... now that you've both firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick, you're going to have to fight to see who keeps it. Please post again and try to demonstrate an even less coherent understanding of the topic than you already have. If you can.
D'ceet Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Rob Eagle If the internet dies, so does their industry :) gentlmen, you heard him. we must DESTROY the INTERNET! [cue dramatic music] Originally by: Popperr I resent the insinuation that we have intelligence, artificial or otherwise.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:52:00 - [14] Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. This gives me an idea... What's the most effective way of knocking a site off the net? DDOS. What does a good DDOS need? Thousands, tens of thousands of host computers, connected to a central server to receive commands. What does Eve consist of? A central server with thousands, tens of thousands of client computers connected to it at all hours of the day. Just include a tickbox in the options that states "I wish to partake in the active defence of Eve against RMT offenders." and away you go.
Khemul Zula Amarr Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Sir Substance Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. no, the MMO companies need to enforce their damn EULA's. put a clause in the EULA that states (in proper legal jargon) that if you get caught selling isk for $$$, you get a fine of $500,000USD or whatever CCP thinks they can get away with. then set up a department to mercilessly hunt down these people and extract the money from them. i guarantee it will pay for itself, and maybe CCP can afford to lower subs after then catch a few of these people Pretty sure that'd be thrown out in a court (in the US atleast) as excessive. A fine in the $100 range would probably be the max you could actually get enforced. Then you run into the problem of enforcement. You can't really force the people to pay (sorta like how if you don't pay a contractor all they can do is put a lien on your property. they can't force payment). Then you run into the problem of where you can/cannot enforce it (as in...most the world). Other then all of those problems, good idea. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did I really need certificates to tell me I lack Basic Core Competency?
Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:54:00 - [16] Originally by: D'ceet Edited by: D''ceet on 27/11/2008 02:46:58 Originally by: Rob Eagle If the internet dies, so does their industry :) gentlemen, you heard him. we must DESTROY the INTERNET! [cue dramatic music] edited: added music. I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:16:00 - [17] Nothing is more deserving of an img-timeline than that article. So, img-timeline. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome What's the most effective way of knocking a site off the net? DDOS.......Just include a tickbox in the options that states "I wish to partake in the active defence of Eve against RMT offenders." and away you go. Yeah and with our luck, the RMT guys will get CCP/users in legal trouble for doing bad things to their websites. Oh ironic it would be *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:24:00 - [19] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Nothing is more deserving of an img-timeline than that article. So, img-timeline. Doesn't work without the square brackets, nubtard.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.11.27 05:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Tiirae Here's a Wired article I found on Digg. It blew my mind. Anyone who thinks the RMT trade can be stopped or even slowed down is dreaming. Just read the article. After reading this I find it odd but I keep wondering this nonetheless... Why aren't they getting arrested? How can they walk freely in public with no shame? This is why I feel people have to much freedom in this world.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.11.27 05:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Tiirae Originally by: Sir Substance Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. no, the MMO companies need to enforce their damn EULA's. put a clause in the EULA that states (in proper legal jargon) that if you get caught selling isk for $$$, you get a fine of $500,000USD or whatever CCP thinks they can get away with. then set up a department to mercilessly hunt down these people and extract the money from them. i guarantee it will pay for itself, and maybe CCP can afford to lower subs after then catch a few of these people The only people who agree to the EULAs are the farmers at the very bottom of the tree. They live in countries without effective legal systems for stuff like this, and they haven't got any money anyway. Nobody in the management of these companies has played any of these games and certainly haven't agreed to any EULAs. Hitting their websites isn't going to do anything either. Again, their ISPs will not observe takedown notices and the RMT guys can create new sites much faster than the MMO guys can take them down. The only way this can be fixed is to drag every 3rd world country on the planet into the 21st century and therefore make legal stuff enforceable. And that's never going to happen. I disagree, I believe it will happen, but its going to take a tyrant to do it. The Christians call this the end of days and the Antichrist. I call it salvation for man and the possibility of a Utopian society (if the tyrant is smart).
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.27 06:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Tiirae Well... now that you've both firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick, you're going to have to fight to see who keeps it. Please post again and try to demonstrate an even less coherent understanding of the topic than you already have. If you can. You posted an article about the history of RMT (more like, history of IGE) and stated "it blew your mind". I have failed to find anything other than "old news" in it. Yes, the details are interesting (like who was the founder, where he got funding from and so on), but the "grand scheme // M.O." was pretty much clear years ago. You also flailed about the billion USD magnitude order in your second post as if it actually meant "a lot of money" on a global scale. It doesn't, it's quite minuscule for a WORLDWIDE market. At the article-listed estimate of 2 bil a year, that's not even 30 cents a year per human alive. Also, just gave you an example of another "business area" (toothpicks) that almost everybody never even thinks about that yields pretty much the same overall numbers, maybe even more money (although, granted, most of it is in retail rather than manufacture) to show you just how MEANINGLESS the "billion dollar industry" statement is. Sensationalism and nothing more. Yes, there is money to be made from RMT even if it's illegal (actually, MAINLY BECAUSE it's illegal), and no you can't really get rid of them as long as income in "typical buyer" countries far surpasses that of "typical seller" countries. But there's nothing newsworthy about that, it's something everybody with half a brain already knew a long time ago. The only two options for getting rid of "RMT as a business" would be EITHER for all "affected" game companies to start seling in-game currency and all possible items at prices below those offered by RMTers (good luck with trying to pull that off without wrecking the entire game in the process)... OR to have everybody in the whole wide world earn exactly the same salary (yeah, right). _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Karanth Gallente Independent Fleet Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2008.11.27 06:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. This gives me an idea... What's the most effective way of knocking a site off the net? DDOS. What does a good DDOS need? Thousands, tens of thousands of host computers, connected to a central server to receive commands. What does Eve consist of? A central server with thousands, tens of thousands of client computers connected to it at all hours of the day. Just include a tickbox in the options that states "I wish to partake in the active defence of Eve against RMT offenders." and away you go. Wanna check that box. --- Wheel of Whineage
Nikita Alterana Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism	Posted - 2008.11.27 07:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. This gives me an idea... What's the most effective way of knocking a site off the net? DDOS. What does a good DDOS need? Thousands, tens of thousands of host computers, connected to a central server to receive commands. What does Eve consist of? A central server with thousands, tens of thousands of client computers connected to it at all hours of the day. Just include a tickbox in the options that states "I wish to partake in the active defence of Eve against RMT offenders." and away you go. would support this __________________________________________________ I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it! I'm also training Minmatar Capitals! And I eat Lions!
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.11.27 07:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Nikita Alterana Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Originally by: SickSeven The mmo folks need to go "black ops" on this. Need to hire some hackers to just attack their websites constantly. This gives me an idea... What's the most effective way of knocking a site off the net? DDOS. What does a good DDOS need? Thousands, tens of thousands of host computers, connected to a central server to receive commands. What does Eve consist of? A central server with thousands, tens of thousands of client computers connected to it at all hours of the day. Just include a tickbox in the options that states "I wish to partake in the active defence of Eve against RMT offenders." and away you go. would support this wow, that is a really really good idea. kinda vigilante justice, not sure how it would iron out with isps and certain governments... but i love the idea ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt!
Nikita Alterana Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism	Posted - 2008.11.27 07:22:00 - [26] I'm suggesting this in the general assembly. __________________________________________________ I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it! I'm also training Minmatar Capitals! And I eat Lions!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.27 07:41:00 - [27] /facepalm _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Akita T /facepalm
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.27 09:35:00 - [29] in the future my son will lead the war against skynet DUNDUN DUN DUNDUN 253528? That's Numberwang!
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.27 09:57:00 - [30] What's the billion dollars compared to the number of people that play MMO's ? Yes. Yes, I am.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.27 10:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Shirley Serious What's the billion dollars compared to the number of people that play MMO's ? What you should be asking is: What is a billion dollars worth to you personally? This isn't a system where the income is shared out among everyone, this is a business where individuals are profiting from the work of others. Example: If you own a car and I start sending people around to your house because you are soft enough to give them a lift, it would probably annoy you. If you then found out I was charging these people but not offering you a cut, you would be outraged. If you then found out I was making a fortune from doing it to several people who own cars, you'd be furious. Now imagine how you'd feel if you found out I had made a billion dollar business from doing it. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:19:00 - [32] What's a billion dollars compared to just don't buy that ****?
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.27 12:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Akita T You also flailed about the billion USD magnitude order in your second post as if it actually meant "a lot of money" on a global scale. It doesn't, it's quite minuscule for a WORLDWIDE market. At the article-listed estimate of 2 bil a year, that's not even 30 cents a year per human alive. You are a first class moron. I would never suggest that a billion dollars was significant on a global scale, that's absurd. However, a billion dollars is huge on the scale of an industry with only a handful of people at the top of the tree. My point, seeing as you are so feeble minded as to have not yet grasped it, is that with a billion dollars a year at stake, there's ALWAYS going to be people to step in and keep it up, regardless of whatever the MMO companies do to the current offenders. Your whole argument about it being a tiny market is the dumbest thing I have read in weeks.
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.27 12:45:00 - [34] was just trying to get a grasp on the scale of things. So it's a billion dollar industry. how many people play mmorpgs? Yes. Yes, I am.
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.27 12:54:00 - [35] a beeeeeeeeeeeeeeelion dollars! 955593? That's Numberwang!
TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:15:00 - [36] hmmmmm......a Billion $$$$ i'd buy a heavily armored ship, fit lots of weapons on the high slots, webbers, scramblers, ECM, long range Tracking and big engines on the mids, and speed boosters and big powerplant and heavy armour on the lows. I'd then hire a team of ex-Militry guys from Eve-Online(who wants to go play pew-pew) and we'd all go play real Pew-Pew with the Pirates off the coast of yeman and somalia/ethiopia, and for a holiday we'd go visit hong kong and have some fun with the pirates over there on the way... Yarrrr..... CCP made little baby jesus cry by nerfing ghost training
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:30:00 - [37] Originally by: Tiirae Just read the article. How about you summarize it? Black Sun Empire
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.28 03:00:00 - [38] Originally by: Tiirae I would never suggest that a billion dollars was significant on a global scale, that's absurd. However, a billion dollars is huge on the scale of an industry with only a handful of people at the top of the tree. The very nature of the "business" MAKES it global. And just like the article denotes, the age of single big conglomerates with a handfull of people at the top has all but ended... with loads of smaller-scale "phantom" businesses being more likely to succeed. Quote: My point, seeing as you are so feeble minded as to have not yet grasped it, is that with a billion dollars a year at stake, there's ALWAYS going to be people to step in and keep it up, regardless of whatever the MMO companies do to the current offenders. Wow, good going - you berate me for "not getting it" and you reach the exact same conclusion I did. Way to go ! Or "way to not read the entire post at all", whichever you prefer. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.28 07:28:00 - [39] Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Tiirae Just read the article. How about you summarize it? Sure: People involved in the RMT business are turning over a billion dollars a year or more. You're welcome.
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.28 07:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Akita T Toothpicks are a billion dollar industry... As is manure. I think we've made our point. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.28 07:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Akita T Wow, good going - you berate me for "not getting it" and you reach the exact same conclusion I did. Way to go ! Or "way to not read the entire post at all", whichever you prefer. Yeah whatever. Your blathering about a billion dollars a year not being much money pretty much made anything else you said not worth reading. I've had more interest in the welfare of my dog's fleas than I have for your opinions. I'm only posting this because you are probably one of those 'must have last word' people and with any luck I can keep this going for days.
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.28 07:35:00 - [42] Originally by: Tiirae Originally by: Akita T Wow, good going - you berate me for "not getting it" and you reach the exact same conclusion I did. Way to go ! Or "way to not read the entire post at all", whichever you prefer. Yeah whatever. Your blathering about a billion dollars a year not being much money pretty much made anything else you said not worth reading. I've had more interest in the welfare of my dog's fleas than I have for your opinions. I'm only posting this because you are probably one of those 'must have last word' people and with any luck I can keep this going for days. Pot calling kettle black. If you did not care about peoples' opinions you would not be arguing with them on an Internet spaceship forums. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Gentle Wind	Posted - 2008.11.28 08:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Tiirae The only way this can be fixed is to drag every 3rd world country on the planet into the 21st century and therefore make legal stuff enforceable. And that's never going to happen. Let's not forget the people buying the product are those who are in your corp and you play with on a regular basis. Aside from that, at least 1 of the major RMT companies is based in Ohio (U.S.A.) and buys currency from U.S. players to resell. They have a near 0 ban rate because their IP address is US based which keeps them under the radar. I'm amazed how much ignorance there is about farming and RMT. A lot of people are talking but few having any idea what they are talking about.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.28 17:05:00 - [44] Edited by: Akita T on 28/11/2008 17:10:08 Originally by: Tiirae Yeah whatever. Your blathering about a billion dollars a year not being much money pretty much made anything else you said not worth reading. I've had more interest in the welfare of my dog's fleas than I have for your opinions. It's a lot of money if you talk single-company or single-individual. But when you talk "INDUSTRY" and "global scale", it's not. The article you posted pretty much already spelled it to you that even if it MIGHT have been possible in the past to concentrate most of that "industry" in a couple of hands (as it was the case with IGE), due to the risen awareness in all MMO operators and increased visibility in judicial circles, that's not likely to be possible anymore - any LARGE "legitimate" company that operates TRADING virtual currency and items is likely to be slapped with some kind of lawsuit sooner or later. The article further explains the problems "suppliers" of such wannabe trading companies face, how badly they get hit by waves of banning and such. It pretty much spells to you that everything past a certain volume is likely to be detected by the MMO operators and eventually get destroyed in a very (financially) painfull fashion. So, the "one big trading company" is not feasable anymore... "professional gold farmers" get hit increasingly often... this all leaves in just all those "fish too small to fry" as the only serious problem. Sure, the fact the potential clientelle has a lot of money to spend makes place for a LOT of small-time operators, but even if it was just a million-dollar "business" that would still be the case. Yeah, I did make fun of your "OMGWTF billion dollar industry SHOCK" statement. That's because it was obvious for years. If you NEEDED that article to spell it for you... what the hell does that mean ? Oh, right... that you had no clue, that's what it means. Barring that (for you) startling revelation of just how big the market is (a sub-unitary fraction of what MMO subscription costs are, that is), there was nothing more you said that hasn't been said for a very, very long time. OF COURSE SOMEBODY will always try to sell virtual currency/items even if it's "not EULA legal" to do so, but that doesn't have anything to do with the TOTAL potential market - somebody would do that even if the potential market would be tiny. It has to do with the "value of time" across the globe... when one hour of work in the USA pays over 7$, but somewhere else 35 cents is a decent deal, OBVIOUSLY you will get a situation where somebody in the "poorer" country will recruit people to do what the people in the "rich" country don't feel like doing, ESPECIALLY if the goods are immaterial and easily transferrable from one party to the other even across the entire globe. You get the "DUUH" award. Originally by: Gentle Wind Aside from that, at least 1 of the major RMT companies is based in Ohio (U.S.A.) and buys currency from U.S. players to resell. They have a near 0 ban rate because their IP address is US based which keeps them under the radar. What keeps them safe is mainly the average low volumes of trade per account, only then the not-farming-specific IPs. Don't worry, just like IGE was sued, they will get sued too, eventually - as soon as they get "high profile" enough to become either a juicy class action lawsuit target, or a corporate lawsuit target. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK

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