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Merlin - A request for a third turret.

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Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.30 01:10:00 - [1] The merlin is, as it stands, the only Caldari gunship that is, compared to the rest of them, out of whack. That being that it has 4 high slots and only 2 turret hardpoints. Even before the moa and the ferox got an extra turret hardpoint they still had enough turrets for over half their high slots and I believe that for the sake of design consistancy the merlin should have a 3/2 turret/launcher hardpoint setup to bring it in line with the 5/2 of the moa, 6/5 of the ferox, and 8/4 of the rokh. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
DubanFP Caldari R.U.S.T.	Posted - 2008.11.30 01:48:00 - [2] Merlin is actually pretty good as it is. Surprizingly tough for a frigate. The trick is to use MAPCs and medium shield extenders. Why would it need anything else? _______________ Newbie> Eve is a GRIEFING game. rofflesausage> You mean you didn't check the rules for the game, spent money on it, lost your stuff and it's not your fault?
Radcjk Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.11.30 02:50:00 - [3] Originally by: DubanFP Merlin is actually pretty good as it is. Surprizingly tough for a frigate. The trick is to use MAPCs and medium shield extenders. Why would it need anything else? Because for a Caldari turret boat it has a 50 / 50 turret and missile split. Also, missiles suck. Also, OP stated exactly why, with out the overly common 'omg please buff my ship and make it uber' whine. Learn to read.
Morgan La'Chance Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics	Posted - 2008.11.30 02:53:00 - [4] All 2/2 ships with gun bonuses should get the Rifter treatment of 3/2 slot split.
vostok Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.11.30 02:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Morgan La'Chance All 2/2 ships with gun bonuses should get the Rifter treatment of 3/2 slot split. But then the only good minmatar ship would be useless... - Adaptation is not* an excuse for lack of ballance!* -
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.30 03:04:00 - [6] Just get a Harpy and be done with it. Frig 5 ffs. It's not that hard. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
4 LOM United Gamers	Posted - 2008.11.30 05:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Just get a Harpy and be done with it. Frig 5 ffs. It's not that hard. If a ship has a flaw, training a different ship is not the solution... I dont think the merlin has a flaw if you want a dps tech 1 frigate get a kestral if you want something that can atleats attempt to tank get a merlin. kestral is the damage boat dont need the merlin to be. Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.30 05:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Just get a Harpy and be done with it. Frig 5 ffs. It's not that hard. This really isn't much of a solution, really. I mean, the Merlin is supposedly the premier Caldari combat frigate yet it's overshadowed in every concievable way (except tank) by the Kestral, which is what almost invariably leads most caldari players to assume that guns are stupid. Actually, that trend is reinforced throughout the caldari lineup for pvp. The caracal is superior to the Moa, the Drake is superior to the Ferrox and the Raven is superior to the Rokh when it comes to strict PVE performance. A 3rd turret slot won't exactly make the Merlin overpowered or anything, but it will at least allow the player to truly focus the setup, which is a core idea of most Caldari setups. Flexability is for other races. If the Merlin is to be the frigate rail platform, give it the gun slots to be that platform. With it's current settings the Merlin can pretty much just fit 3 150mm rails and the requisite damage mods and shield stuff. If it want's to wedge something into that spare high, it's got to make comprimises - like everyone else.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.30 05:17:00 - [9] You know what makes less sense than the 2/2 merlin? the 2/2 tristan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Dyaven The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.30 05:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Letifer Deus You know what makes less sense than the 2/2 merlin? the 2/2 tristan. Amen. ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use an image that will display - Fallout

Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.30 05:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Letifer Deus You know what makes less sense than the 2/2 merlin? the 2/2 tristan. And by the same token the caldari navy hookbill and gallente navy comet ships. Both have their T1 counterpart's gun bonus and are a 2/2 split. I think I'll go edit the title of the thread and the original post. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.30 06:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Just get a Harpy and be done with it. Frig 5 ffs. It's not that hard. How does getting a harpy fix the merlin's going against Caldari design philosphy? Heck, the harpy's 4/1 split just goes to prove my point that the merlin's an odd, some might say lame, duck in the Caldari gunboat lineup. Outside of the falcon's 2/2 split (none of which are bonused) the only other ships in the Caldari lineup with an equal number of turrets and launchers are the blackbird, scorpion, and vulture and they all have more hardpoints than high slots. Any way you slice it the merlin is one of only two Caldari ships (that I can find in EVE-Mon, I may have missed something) that cannot be set up to have more weapons of one type or another and the only ship that has weapon-related bonuses to have this problem. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2008.11.30 13:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Just get a Harpy and be done with it. They ruined her with the last patch.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.11.30 13:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Mona X Originally by: Bellum Eternus Just get a Harpy and be done with it. They ruined her with the last patch. Why? _________________________________________________
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2008.11.30 13:39:00 - [15] They switched models.
Fredrick Trudeau	Posted - 2008.11.30 13:54:00 - [16] Edited by: Fredrick Trudeau on 30/11/2008 14:16:36 I played for a long time. Raised characters from all 4 races. I love to fly small ships. The one frigate that has never made sense to me was the Tristan. Why are there rocket launchers on the Gal's top frigate? This should be a drone boat in the same way the Kestrel is a missile boat and the Rifter and Punisher are gun boats. The Incursus is the premier Gal gun boat. The Imicus is a rather anemic drone frigate. To the OPs point, the Merlin should most certainly have the option for a third turret. To be racially consistent, it should have an option for a third launcher.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.30 18:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Shereza [And by the same token the caldari navy hookbill and gallente navy comet ships. Both have their T1 counterpart's gun bonus and are a 2/2 split. I think I'll go edit the title of the thread and the original post. Agreed. I thought about buying a hookbill or comet and then looked at their hardpoints and said, "lol, no way". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Ess Erbe Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:08:00 - [18] Edited by: Ess Erbe on 30/11/2008 22:08:02 Same thing with the Firetail, not to mention the Daredevil and Dramiel. Slicer gets 3 guns and damage bonus though :coal:.
Dyaven The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Ess Erbe Edited by: Ess Erbe on 30/11/2008 22:08:02 Same thing with the Firetail, not to mention the Daredevil and Dramiel. Slicer gets 3 guns and damage bonus though :coal:. Dramiel gets bonused turrets and 2 turret hardpoints and 3 missile hardpoints. Wtf? ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use an image that will display - Fallout
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.11.30 23:19:00 - [20] dont change my merlin or tristan learn to fly them, they **ing rule. - FRIGANK\|FRIGANK 2**

Cade Morrigan Caldari TARSHISH FOUNDATION	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:22:00 - [21] Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal dont change my merlin or tristan learn to fly them, they ****ing rule. Your freakish cry of anguish would mean something if the proposed change actually hurt your ability to use your current fits. -= Don't you DARE call her ugly! =-
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Dyaven Originally by: Ess Erbe Edited by: Ess Erbe on 30/11/2008 22:08:02 Same thing with the Firetail, not to mention the Daredevil and Dramiel. Slicer gets 3 guns and damage bonus though :coal:. Dramiel gets bonused turrets and 2 turret hardpoints and 3 missile hardpoints. Wtf? At some point CCP realised that 50/50 weapon splits with only 50% bonused was pretty crappy. They've been moving away from that at a pretty steady pace - see khanid mk. 2, sansha mk. 2, etc - but tech 1 and faction frigates have been passed by, because frankly nobody really cares about them enough. Of the faction frigates, you'll notice 2 exceptions to the rule of suck - the slicer and the succubus. The slicer got exempted by virtue of being a punisher in a modded executioner hull with executioner bonuses, the succubus got saved by sansha mk .2 - but still uses the wrong model after 5 years, if you needed any confirmation that ccp dont give a crap about tech 1 frigates. Do these highslot/bonus combinations suck? Yes. Proved abundantly by the fact that they're being removed from all classes larger and/or more advanced than a t1 frigate. Could they be easily fixed without any impact to game balance. Yes. Pretty much all the gun models have extra mounts, in old builds sometimes you'd undock in say, a merlin, and the gun would be mounted in one of these unused mounts by error. As to balance, I don't think anything needs to be said. Will CCP listen. No. They really don't give a crap about t1 frigs.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:38:00 - [23] Edited by: Kessiaan on 01/12/2008 01:40:23 I flew a Tristan quite a bit before QR. 2/2 split sucks ass, I'll agree, but it does have one more low than the Incursus, as well as quite a bit more PG/CPU. Also the Incursus has fully bonused guns but it only has 3 of them, Tristan has two bonused guns and two unbonused launchers, it ends up being pretty close on DPS and has the ability to mount a much stronger tank. For missions / plexing / sniping, the Tristan is much friendlier to a rail fit than the Incursus, which with an MWD is crazy fast and it has no tracking bonus. But the Tristan has huge grid issues when trying to mount rails and SMLs. Right now I'm not terribly happy with any of the T1 Gallente frigs (except the Comet which can be good if you sink 100+ million ISK into it) For good and cheap the Rifter is even better now than it was before, IMO, and for better and expensive the Navy Hookbill, or even a rigged SML Kestrel are both hard to top, IMO. Ninja Edit: CCP should give a crap about T1 frigs - they of all people should know how instrumental of a role they play in Factional Warfare due to the size-restricted plexes that nothing else (except a destroyer) can enter.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Kessiaan Ninja Edit: CCP should give a crap about T1 frigs - they of all people should know how instrumental of a role they play in Factional Warfare due to the size-restricted plexes that nothing else (except a destroyer) can enter. Not to mention that new players will probably be spending some in them. The issues being brought up in this thread are the same reasons I never really trust CCP when they say they want to make it easier for new players. Its obvious that the guys working on the tutorials do, but its also obvious that the main game designers really don't.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:55:00 - [25] Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 01/12/2008 01:59:47 The amount of underestimation of rockets in this thread is amusing. The Merlin & Tristan both have a HUGE advantage over every other T1 frigate (slightly less over the Rifter). The Merlin can do some pretty good (T1) frigate dps but at the same time, have a pretty good passive tank. Hell, ANY passive regen on a frigate is godly, let alone 25 vs Barrage (Rifters). The Tristan is pretty much a Gallente Rifter. The only difference is that 2 guns take cap. Not much of an issue since it has better cap than a Rifter, a drone AND rockets. Unless you`re daft, you should be carrying every variant of rockets. I don`t care if they are t1, faction, or t2. Every damage type needs to be carried. If you can only pick 2, make it EM & Kinetic. It may not seem much, but the little changes in someones resistance are a big deal. I don`t care who you are, it`s a fact. On top of that, carry defenders. Laugh all you want, but 1 rocket launcher with defenders will protect you vs a bomber. The only disadvantage to the split weapon system is that you need to train more. That`s it. Suck it up or fly something simple. Oh, and 75mm Rails > Blasters on both these ships - FRIGANK\|FRIGANK 2
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 02:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Just get a Harpy and be done with it. Frig 5 ffs. It's not that hard. Except for newer players - they'll be looking at Engineering V and Mechanic V and yes, while those are indeed core skills which they'll want/need/get eventually, in the short term it isn't very encouraging to be told "Just go get a Tech II ship instead". It also doesn't address the actual "problem" ... IMHO, they're not that bad anyway. I'd rather see the Comet (and so on) get a third turret each instead.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.01 02:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal The Tristan is pretty much a Gallente Rifter. The only difference is that 2 guns take cap. Not much of an issue since it has better cap than a Rifter, a drone AND rockets. Everything you say is true, but the main reason a Rifter is generally better than a Tristan is because at 8kms a Rifter with Barrage will kick the **** out of a Tristan firing faction rockets and Null, even with a drone. A Tristan w/ Fed Navy Antimatter will do better DPS than the same Rifter firing Hail or Rep. Fleet EMP S close in, but the Tristan is too slow to close range on pretty much any frig packing a web and a scram. That's more of a blaster issue than a ship issue though, IMO.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Kessiaan Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal The Tristan is pretty much a Gallente Rifter. The only difference is that 2 guns take cap. Not much of an issue since it has better cap than a Rifter, a drone AND rockets. Everything you say is true, but the main reason a Rifter is generally better than a Tristan is because at 8kms a Rifter with Barrage will kick the ** out of a Tristan firing faction rockets and Null, even with a drone. A Tristan w/ Fed Navy Antimatter will do better DPS than the same Rifter firing Hail or Rep. Fleet EMP S close in, but the Tristan is too slow to close range on pretty much any frig packing a web and a scram. That's more of a blaster issue than a ship issue though, IMO. I put 75mm Railguns on my Tristans - FRIGANK\|FRIGANK 2**
Doc Mexallon	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Kessiaan Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal The Tristan is pretty much a Gallente Rifter. The only difference is that 2 guns take cap. Not much of an issue since it has better cap than a Rifter, a drone AND rockets. Everything you say is true, but the main reason a Rifter is generally better than a Tristan is because at 8kms a Rifter with Barrage will kick the ** out of a Tristan firing faction rockets and Null, even with a drone. A Tristan w/ Fed Navy Antimatter will do better DPS than the same Rifter firing Hail or Rep. Fleet EMP S close in, but the Tristan is too slow to close range on pretty much any frig packing a web and a scram. A Rifter is also not a 2/2 ship - it has 3 bonused turrets, just like the Punisher and Incursus. That makes it a very nice awesome ship compared to the poor Merlin and Tristan. Originally by:** Prometheus Exenthal The only disadvantage to the split weapon system is that you need to train more. That`s it. Another disadvantage is that only half your weapons are bonused. It gives versatility, for sure, but you don't get as much benefit for training the ship skill up as you might do from a ship which focuses on a single weapon type. It's more a problem with EVE's ship bonuses, in that there's always only 2 bonuses to a T1 ship, even if they only benefit half the ship.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:34:00 - [30] Originally by: Doc Mexallon Originally by: Kessiaan Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal The Tristan is pretty much a Gallente Rifter. The only difference is that 2 guns take cap. Not much of an issue since it has better cap than a Rifter, a drone AND rockets. Everything you say is true, but the main reason a Rifter is generally better than a Tristan is because at 8kms a Rifter with Barrage will kick the ** out of a Tristan firing faction rockets and Null, even with a drone. A Tristan w/ Fed Navy Antimatter will do better DPS than the same Rifter firing Hail or Rep. Fleet EMP S close in, but the Tristan is too slow to close range on pretty much any frig packing a web and a scram. A Rifter is also not a 2/2 ship - it has 3 bonused turrets, just like the Punisher and Incursus. That makes it a very nice awesome ship compared to the poor Merlin and Tristan. Originally by:** Prometheus Exenthal The only disadvantage to the split weapon system is that you need to train more. That`s it. Another disadvantage is that only half your weapons are bonused. It gives versatility, for sure, but you don't get as much benefit for training the ship skill up as you might do from a ship which focuses on a single weapon type. It's more a problem with EVE's ship bonuses, in that there's always only 2 bonuses to a T1 ship, even if they only benefit half the ship. sometimes i try to think about wut eve could have been like without bonuses..... then i cry about my zealot not having its amazing range. --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!



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