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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.05 16:37:00 -
[31]
When I used to trade (notice the past tense), I used to respond to price wars by doubling the amount I bid.
For example, if the bid is 2 million for an item that sells for 3 million I would bid 2.1. If I was undercut by 0.01 isk, I would then bid 2.2 and then 2.4.
Sure, I was hurting my own profits, but my strategy focused on volume and I did enjoying nuking profits for my competition. I also noticed that they would leave after a while if I kept it up.
Also, if they followed me up, I just imported excess stock and dumped it on them. All in all, I ended up getting more enjoyment out of trading by viewing it as a PvP sport as opposed to a way of making money. I already had enough money. 
EBANK Staff | www.eve-bank.net
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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.12.05 17:15:00 -
[32]
The 0.01 ISK undercut is annoying but part of the market system; so it doesn't bother me.
That said, what does bother me is when I am moving a lot of material at, say, 85k per unit and someone comes in with a large quantity at 65k. I don't understand why someone would leave so much on the table. 
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Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
House of Mercury
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Posted - 2008.12.05 19:44:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Krylon Rhae
That said, what does bother me is when I am moving a lot of material at, say, 85k per unit and someone comes in with a large quantity at 65k. I don't understand why someone would leave so much on the table.
If you believe that they are under selling it why not buy it all (making me happy probably) and sell it on at the correct price, correct as you see it anyway.
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Chomin H'ak
Integrated Takeovers
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Posted - 2008.12.05 19:56:00 -
[34]
Two reasons I perceive for the 0.01 game:
1. Keeps the trader within the game utilizing the lowest amount of capital possible.
2. Draws an emotional response from the competition resulting in said competition fleeing the "field of battle" 
Originally by: SonO***host
Originally by: Feronia
People will think twice before updating their prices again and it would result in a more dynamic price setting.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
Inconceivable!
Originally by: Frenden Dax
My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Soleramnus
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.05 20:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Heikki
There is no suck thing as '0.01 ISK wars'.
It's really a 'Friendly Market Sharing' scheme.
This. In my view it's not annoying at all. In fact it's a gentleman's game of sharing the market. We're each other's competitionłokay, fine. Instead of clobbering each other to death with huge cuts into our margins, do the .01 ISK thing.
It's how you make money when supply is more numerous than demand. Is it annoying? Not really, when you consider the fact that they could be lowering their prices much more, and to beat them you may have to take a 100k, 1m, 10m hit in profit margins. With this, they only ask for a 1.00 ISK hit in margin (depending on your volume of course).
What I find annoying in fact is people who don't do thisą but in the end they only hurt themselves, soą *shrug*
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Frozen Corpses
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:46:00 -
[36]
I just purchased a nice module worth about 2.3m for 0.01 ISK. And a bunch more I .01 ISK increased over my comp... I wouldnt do it if it didnt work. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:51:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Soleramnus
.
What I find annoying in fact is people who don't do thisą but in the end they only hurt themselves, soą *shrug*
Massive slashes in margin have their purposes in the trading game.
When you are looking at moves in the market, always try to keep this in mind. Even the most absurd market move makes sense to at least them. In this regard, there is always the possibility they might see something you missed. |
Dorna Fema
Caldari
Tech 2 Holdings Limited
Tech Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.12.06 01:14:00 -
[38]
.01 increases are a strategy, appalling to some and loved by others.
If your going to participate in the economic facet of Eve your just going to have to adapt. In this player driven market you have small time builders selling product, you have the big builders selling, and you have resellers of all sizes. You just find your niche, exploit it, defend it, share it or get out of the way.
Welcome to Capitalism! 
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Yuilan FMP
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Posted - 2008.12.06 04:10:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Chi Quan
the market works in a way that it ALWAYS takes the lowest order, regardless of the one you clicked, if you want to buy.
broken game mechanic imho. still GMs say it's ok.
Why is it a broken machanic? Shares on stock market usually moves in cents as well in matter of minutes or hours building up to a price change of several dollars in a day (Normally). Driven by of coarse the wonderful supply and demand.
If you do observe your trade transactions most people actually buys from the lowest price you hav set anyway. Only a few odd balls will pay me 1000isk for an order I had up for 999isk.
The system works perfectly if you ask me. Moving the lowest buy orders and highest sell orders only makes perfect sense to me. In a way it forces prices back to an equilibrium more efficiently.
Sidenote : If you had set your prices high enough noone would bother undercutting you am I right? So in the first place you have probably undercut someone else by a pathetic 1 isk. |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.06 05:24:00 -
[40]
Originally by: NupetietVer
Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order?
When you see the item move down by 1,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 just know its me 
Buy cheap and sell high
or is it buy cheap and sell cheap
As to your question, I don't have the time to play the 1 isk and being I use different ways to get my items to sell its not hard for me to undercut you. Also my time is worth more than .01 that traders play so I would rather traders buy my stock and resell than to sit there and do that. I have a real portfolio that I could do that with if I felt inclined to.
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Wooster Knite
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Posted - 2008.12.07 10:21:00 -
[41]
Originally by: NupetietVer
Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order?
because we earn ISK doing that, much more than 100.01 !
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dr doooo
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Posted - 2008.12.07 22:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Azlor
Why isn't the 1 cent buy order business banned entirely?
Am I correct that a 100,000.01 buy order will get all the business over a 100,000 order?
Shouldn't there be a minimum increase to get rid of this ridiculousness?
I you think that one through you will realise that a minimum increase would just open a whole new can of worms with a whole heap of new kinds of 'ridiculousness'.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2008.12.08 00:47:00 -
[43]
First off ... as has been mentioned, you need to understand, as not everyone does, that in EVE, you are not placing a price on your item for someone to come along and take off the shelf. You are placing a bid in a competitive process.
The person with the lowest bid - is awarded the sale.
Even if the person doing the buying selects someone's items that are bid at a higher price the Sale will go to the low bidder - though at the higher price. Thus, I have been paid 1,000,000 ISK for a Basic Miner. Some smart ass put a Basic Miner up for sale at 1.0 Mil. ISK and some new person accidentally (I assume) bought it. However I, having placed the lowest bid, got the sale for 1,000,000 ISK. I looked up the buyer, felt sorry for them since they'd only been playing a week and gave them their money back - and donated the Basic Miner they'd bought to them in the bargain.
The other time that happens is when someone has set out to corner the market on something - starts buying out his competition - and buys the higher priced item first. You should know now what will happen. The low bidder will get the sale at the higher price. Then, the buyer will have to pay the same higher price to buy the items he tried to buy the first time.
In any case - because of that - if you don't have the lowest bid you will get NONE of the sales. So, the ONLY way to get any of the sales is to under bid your competition. Here note that the word "competition" is used literally.
Now ... there are any number of market strategies - and I'm far from knowing them all ... that are used.
If I know that a low volume item is grossly over priced - I won't buy it for that price - I will go somewhere else to buy it, especially if I know what the base price of that item is and where to get it at that price. Then what I will do, is to come back and undercut the other guy sufficiently that people will buy what I'm selling THERE instead of going to look for it somewhere else. I'm actually still charging twice what I paid for it - but in contrast to the absurd prices already being asked - my price looks like a wonderful bargain. Thus, instead of flying a few jumps to where I bought the thing and getting it for half of what I'm charging - they buy it from me and I get the sale.
Another trick is the partial price drop. Here, a guy will take a portion of his inventory and drop the price down to a level that HE would be willing to buy it for. His competition drops their price down - he buys them out - then raises the price back up to where it was. What I do here - is to simply pull my order (he now thinks he's won *snicker, snicker*) and I either go place my items for sale somewhere else - or I just hold them until he brings his price back up - and then I put the sale order back in just below his ...
The .01 decremental decreases are for items where you're trying to maintain the margin you want for the item you are selling. It's kind of like this - you took the trouble to go somewhere that you could buy these things for a price you could make some money off of - to make it worth your while - you need to achieve a certain margin. Thus, you don't really want the price to go below a certain level. Log back in however often you feel like it, check your price and adjust it if need be so your items will sell.
Now, there are other factors involved in adjusting your price. One is the volume of items your competition is selling. If it's just a few units of a high volume item - then let him have them but it it's a large number of a low volume item then you may want to move your goods to another region and sell them there.
So - the point of all that is - that buying and selling in EVE has Competition built into the process and that there are a number of different strategies you can use in this competition depending on the situation. Just like in PVP or PVE. You don't do the same thing in all situations. Know the difference - and act accordingly.
Faction Schools
Orbiting vs. Kiting |
shortattenionsp
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Posted - 2008.12.08 01:53:00 -
[44]
0.1 isk wars happen for a multitude of reasons.
Not everyone has the capital to throw around big volumes and make significant isk from smaller profit margins. Some people can't afford to squeeze their margins that much because they are using less capital. Once you have loads of capital it's much easier to absorb diminishing margins and you can afford to lower/raise you prices. Sure you shift bigger volumes if you sell for a lower prices, but if you can't afford to buy those bigger volumes yet and want to make the same amount of isk you want to keep that price as high as possible.
Also lowering prices does not garantee your items will sell over other peoples, you need to judge your opponent's breaking point, otherwise if he follows your prices down you've just chopped profit for the both of you and you're back to where you started - except you're making less isk.
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Dasfry
Caldari
Demio's Corporation
101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.08 08:27:00 -
[45]
Depends on what your selling, looks like trit isn't your Bread n butter.
Originally by: K'uata Sayus
Edited by: K''uata Sayus on 04/12/2008 18:08:01
I prefer the 1.00 Isk undercut, as it is easier and faster than the .01 Isk. When checking a lot of sell orders and adjusting them, .01 changes are too time consuming.
The 100 Isk cost of adjustment hasn't got any bearing on making sure you have the lowest price in the station.
***********
Dasfry, Director
Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Jaseara
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Posted - 2008.12.08 08:48:00 -
[46]
It is easy to manipulate the market.
I can go on and drop my prices by a large chunk. Everyone else does the same especially the isk sellers as they need ISK flow.
I then drop it by another huge chunk because everyone follows you down the whole market drops. Then you buy a load of stuff on the cheap lol.
If I went and dropped the prices by 100k straight away then I would get bought out. Because everyone follows you can crash the market in Jita without much outlay.
The price does recover but then you've got a shed load of stock you bought cheap. If everyone didn't follow the market downwards you wouldn't be able to crash it.
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jonnus ursidae
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Posted - 2008.12.08 12:44:00 -
[47]
Edited by: jonnus ursidae on 08/12/2008 12:44:20
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
The person with the lowest bid - is awarded the sale.
Even if the person doing the buying selects someone's items that are bid at a higher price the Sale will go to the low bidder - though at the higher price.
I didn't know this... many thanks. Does that mean if someone else selling the same item at the same station charges way over the top, the clued-up buyers of that item won't buy as they're always charged the higher price, thus killing off the demand for that item at that station?
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Frozen Corpses
Amarr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.12.08 12:48:00 -
[48]
1 Cent bidding, Regional Average Inflating, Price Gouging, and Market Flooding is the way to go.
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Biruni Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.08 15:08:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Biruni Khan on 08/12/2008 15:18:55
Originally by: Chi Quan
Edited by: Chi Quan on 05/12/2008 15:41:56
the market works in a way that it ALWAYS takes the lowest order, regardless of the one you clicked, if you want to buy.
broken game mechanic imho. still GMs say it's ok.
No it doesn't. Right-click on a higher-priced order and select "Buy This". You'll pay the amount on the order you selected.
ETA: Sorry for that, it looks like I was wrong... you'll still pay the higher price but the lowest order will get filled at the higher price. Kooky.
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Trillana
Xenocidal Uprising
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Posted - 2008.12.08 19:47:00 -
[50]
I think why people do the .01 isk war has been detailed pretty well in this thread, but I will add my input anyhow.
I won't reiterate why people do it, I think that has been covered well. But I would like to add a bit on why it is so pervasive. The eve market is remarkable for a collection of pixels; however, it is far from as free or as complex as real world markets. In the real world there are many different variables on which product competition can occur, and in many cases on a price basis alone is not enough. One such variable in the real world that doesn't exist in eve (and works well for what I am saying) is quality.
In the real world some brands of two blade razors are built with a better quality than others, some companies, depending on their target market, will make lower or higher quality razors and price them accordingly. However, in eve a 150mm Railgun I from randomtradealt1 is no different than one from randomtradealt345930 and so the only venue open for competition is on a price basis. Price being the only competitive element (save location to a degree) a race to the middle is created, but neither sellers nor buyers are in too much of a hurry to get there, so they creep along at the slowest pace they can, .01 ISK.
If you really don't like the .01 ISK wars I'd suggest you try selling/buying your items in stations that are not hubs and price your items accordingly. You may have a lower inventory turn over but in the end you might enjoy your playing experience more, and really that is what we are all here for.
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dr doooo
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Posted - 2008.12.08 20:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Biruni Khan
Edited by: Biruni Khan on 08/12/2008 15:18:55
Originally by: Chi Quan
Edited by: Chi Quan on 05/12/2008 15:41:56
the market works in a way that it ALWAYS takes the lowest order, regardless of the one you clicked, if you want to buy.
broken game mechanic imho. still GMs say it's ok.
No it doesn't. Right-click on a higher-priced order and select "Buy This". You'll pay the amount on the order you selected.
ETA: Sorry for that, it looks like I was wrong... you'll still pay the higher price but the lowest order will get filled at the higher price. Kooky.
It always makes me laugh when someone pays a fair chunk more to buy from a sell order they perceive to be not a trader. I always imagine some naive middle class rich kid living the 'good life' in his mom/dads basement, but with a holier than though disdain for wealth and trading in general.
Similarly, when someone puts up a sell order just above the highest buy order. 99 times out of 100 it just means that a dastardly trader buys the whole lot, but saves on the fees.
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Raaz Satik
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Posted - 2008.12.08 21:14:00 -
[52]
One of the few things that annoys me a little about market PVP and the 0.01 ISK wars, is that like most things it greatly favors the people who can spend the most time in game. If I can only update my orders twice a day and somebody else ticks me 20 mins later, there's nothing I can do. I'm definitely not an advocate of being able to modify orders out of game as this would would just make the market a bot war. In my dream world, the ability to set a maximum price for an order, and for the order to automatically adjust to be the best price until that maximum price is reached, would be ideal. While many traders would obviously hate this, it would make the markets a lot more efficient.
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nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.09 08:25:00 -
[53]
I didn't read all the replies, but the short answer is the game mechanics behind this are really not realistic. The buyer can't decide who to buy from if there are multiple orders in that station. In fact, if he does choose a higher priced order, the lower priced order actually gets the sale PLUS the extra ISK. It's pretty broken.
Tonight I had a few people pay 5 more ISK because they didn't want to have me make money on my 0.01 transaction cutting, but I guess they don't know that I got the sale still AND I got the extra money.
I agree the player should be able to choose who to buy from and sell to, but it's been this way for years, so I would be surprised if it changed.
--------------------
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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
XERCORE
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Posted - 2008.12.09 08:39:00 -
[54]
Originally by: nether void
I didn't read all the replies, but the short answer is the game mechanics behind this are really not realistic. The buyer can't decide who to buy from if there are multiple orders in that station. In fact, if he does choose a higher priced order, the lower priced order actually gets the sale PLUS the extra ISK. It's pretty broken.
Tonight I had a few people pay 5 more ISK because they didn't want to have me make money on my 0.01 transaction cutting, but I guess they don't know that I got the sale still AND I got the extra money.
I agree the player should be able to choose who to buy from and sell to, but it's been this way for years, so I would be surprised if it changed.
There's good reason why it's the way it is and it is quite realistic if not completely representative.
As it is now the database can barely keep up, if you were able to proxy bid and select who you buy from the load would easily double and performance would suffer accordingly.
You're not buying brand name items; every single thing offered on the market is a commodity. They're all identical and they're treated as such. In the real world you buy commodities off an exchange having no idea whom you're buying from and one would never try buying them at a higher than listed price. Even when you do know the name of the company your buying from it's often a worthless shell-company so you never truly know who you're buying from. EVE works the same way, though, admittedly some things probably shouldn't be handled that way, it is still a perfectly reasonable approach.
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Ravenja
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Posted - 2008.12.09 11:45:00 -
[55]
Originally by: NupetietVer
Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order?
because if you use a larger increase/decrease step size you drive the buy prices up/sell prices down much faster than if using the smallest possible increment. So all traders benefit from that (considering all traders will update their orders from time to time so they're "on top" for a while).
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2008.12.09 13:12:00 -
[56]
Edited by: flakeys on 09/12/2008 13:12:22
Originally by: Ravenja
Originally by: NupetietVer
Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order?
because if you use a larger increase/decrease step size you drive the buy prices up/sell prices down much faster than if using the smallest possible increment. So all traders benefit from that (considering all traders will update their orders from time to time so they're "on top" for a while).
This is why i do it.If i increase by a 100 isk then the other 4 competitors will do the same.This will drive the profit margin for all of us down.With regional orders wich i use now i still prefer the 0.01 isk game.When doing station orders i play for volume and will increase my bid a lot higher then others.
Works out good so far for both me and my competitors.I am not out to destroy the competition , merely to let me benefit of the profits as they do.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2008.12.09 22:04:00 -
[57]
Originally by: jonnus ursidae
Edited by: jonnus ursidae on 08/12/2008 12:48:39
Edited by: jonnus ursidae on 08/12/2008 12:44:20
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
The person with the lowest bid - is awarded the sale.
Even if the person doing the buying selects someone's items that are bid at a higher price the Sale will go to the low bidder - though at the higher price.
I didn't know this... many thanks.
Is it just limited to sales of items within a station?
Does that mean if someone else selling the same item at the same station charges way over the top, the clued-up buyers of that item won't buy as they're always charged the higher price, thus killing off the sales of that item at that station?
Not sure I understand the questions.
My understanding it that this is true of any sale within the range of the sale whatever that is. I've no experience with selling things that have larger ranges so I just can't talk about it.
Sales go to the LOWEST bidder. So if someone raises their price it has no bearing on who gets the sale. It will always go to the lowest bidder.
Faction Schools
Orbiting vs. Kiting |
jonnus ursidae
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Posted - 2008.12.09 23:13:00 -
[58]
Hi Toshiro,
I think that may have answered my badly worded question, so the sale goes to the lowest bidder on that item within the range of that sales order.
The last paragraph was my random mumbling on whether sales of an item would stall if a seller inflated the sales price, this inflated price being paid for all sales if the above were true. Sort of a question but not like.
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jepulisjee
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Posted - 2008.12.10 08:03:00 -
[59]
Edited by: jepulisjee on 10/12/2008 08:04:18
The one who pays the best and sells with the best - gets most profit.
These whiners are just those who think that market pvp doesn't need time. Market pvp is all about time, time is money and you WANT to keep your order at the top all the time. BECAUSE, most of ppl will always buy the cheapest item and of course sell to highest offer.
There is no reason to cut your own profit by raising the bid more than 0.01.
If you don't have time for it, then do something else.
Where do these whiners come? This is MMORPG running 23/7 of the day. This isn't single player game where you can press PAUSE or SAVE.
EDIT: And the 100 ISK modify fee doesn't mean nothing when you can have your order at the top for a five minutes and someone buys like 100x T2 hammerheads from you and you make like 10 M ISK profit!
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.10 12:36:00 -
[60]
Has someone tested and confirmed how sales go if all sellers have the same price? Always kind of taken granted that the sale goes to the first one to set the new lowest price, but never really tested it.
If there is some randomness in this, it might lead to more optimal market sharing methods.
Originally by: jepulisjee
you WANT to keep your order at the top all the time
There is actually a somewhat common case where this might hold fully.
Lets assume we are in Jita, selling on some product which has 4 active producers (==those who bring the items to the station regardless of the source) and/or traders.
When you modify your product (by 0.01 ISK) to the lowest price, you'll hold the market for a while till someone changes his price again.
Say one of the traders checks the price every 10 minutes, and the others only 5 times per day. Thus in effect the most active trader gets 95% market share; which is probably something other traders can't really accept (they get no sales). So they are forced to give up friendly market sharing, and compete with profit margin.
So would think optimal trading strategy would be aiming to higher market share than others have, but still letting them have small share they are content with.
-Lasse
who does check the timestamps to figure how long he held the market last time
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