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UK DNA Database VS ECHR

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Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.05 09:43:00 - [1] Uk Gov just lost in the European Court of Human Rights with regards retaining the DNA samples of people who are not guilty of a crime or who've never been charged. BBC Article Seems like a good thing as I can't think why the police need to retain that information for innocent people. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Dong Ninja	Posted - 2008.12.05 09:51:00 - [2] "If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about!"
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.05 09:51:00 - [3] Big Brother is watching you...
Vistilantus Caldari You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.12.05 10:30:00 - [4] Originally by: Dr Slaughter Uk Gov just lost in the European Court of Human Rights with regards retaining the DNA samples of people who are not guilty of a crime or who've never been charged. BBC Article Seems like a good thing as I can't think why the police need to retain that information for innocent people. Because (previously) innocent people commit crimes too. I would have no objection handing over my DNA to the authorities as i don't plan to commit any crimes soon. I am a firm believer that EVERYONE's DNA should be taken and stored on a DB, not only would it help in finding possible donors faster for those on the OD waiting list but it will help the cops nail criminals aswell :) To hell with human rights. ___________________________________________________ ~Vistilantus
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.05 10:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Vistilantus Because (previously) innocent people commit crimes too. I would have no objection handing over my DNA to the authorities as i don't plan to commit any crimes soon. I am a firm believer that EVERYONE's DNA should be taken and stored on a DB, not only would it help in finding possible donors faster for those on the OD waiting list but it will help the cops nail criminals aswell :) To hell with human rights. Aye. I wouldn't mind replacing chip and pin with an induction chip in my hand to authorise payment, but people drop bricks when you tell them about BIOELECTRONICS UNDER THEIR SKIN. Goddamn media, we could have personal HUDs in our faces by now if people weren't so adverse to transhumanism.
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.05 10:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Vistilantus Because (previously) innocent people commit crimes too. Going by that statement they should lock us all up immediately we turn about 6 years old. Originally by: Vistilantus I would have no objection handing over my DNA to the authorities as i don't plan to commit any crimes soon. Evidently we live in a free society so there's nothing stopping you walking down the station and doing exactly that. If you do actually back up your beliefs as quoted on here by giving them your DNA please let us know their reaction. Originally by: Vistilantus I am a firm believer that EVERYONE's DNA should be taken and stored on a DB, not only would it help in finding possible donors faster for those on the OD waiting list but it will help the cops nail criminals aswell :) Interesting view. I assume you're aware that DNA evidence can be flawed? Originally by: Vistilantus To hell with human rights. Yeah and transhumans too... ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Arianhod	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:01:00 - [7] I wonder if people would still have rights if they were transhuman and uploaded into a simulation.... Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Haruhiists - Supporting Linkification since 2008
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Arianhod I wonder if people would still have rights if they were transhuman and uploaded into a simulation.... Well I would assume you have the right to pay your electricity bill. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:10:00 - [9] Originally by: Arianhod I wonder if people would still have rights if they were transhuman and uploaded into a simulation.... Depends what MMO you spend your life jacked into. EVE? Haha. The right to remain podded.
baltec1 R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:39:00 - [10] There are number of murderers who would have killed more if their DNA had not been on the system. Honestly what is so bad about the police having your DNA? Unless you go out and commit crimes you have nothing to worry about. There are far too many do gooders running around screaming human rights these days and failing to think about what exactly they are doing. Not too long ago some do gooders got a suspended kid back into school because it was against his human rights to be refused an education. They ignored the fact that he was suspended for throwing acid at someones face...
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:48:00 - [11] Originally by: baltec1 Not too long ago some do gooders got a suspended kid back into school because it was against his human rights to be refused an education. They ignored the fact that he was suspended for throwing acid at someones face... Bleeding heart Liberals will be the end of the world, mark my words. The world would be better off without that punk throwing acid at someones face. They should have put him into Boot Camp, not back into school.
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol Doctrine.	Posted - 2008.12.05 14:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Reven Cordelle Originally by: baltec1 Not too long ago some do gooders got a suspended kid back into school because it was against his human rights to be refused an education. They ignored the fact that he was suspended for throwing acid at someones face... Bleeding heart Liberals will be the end of the world, mark my words. The world would be better off without that punk throwing acid at someones face. They should have put him into Boot Camp, not back into school. You're equating liberals with idiots. There is a marked difference. Raging Fascist s****who think that killing anyone who disagree with them are just as, possibly more blinkered and dangerous, than the idiots who take Liberalism too far.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:47:00 - [13] Edited by: Davina Braben on 05/12/2008 15:50:41 Lets ****ing hear it for the European Court of Human Rights As for "innocent people commit crimes"... one of my criminology lecturers told us this story. I think it was about Edwin Sutherland. He said Sutherland was asked how to identify criminals before they committed a crime. Sutherland said "That's easy. Take any class of six year olds and split them up into boys and girls. The boys are your likely candidates."
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 05/12/2008 15:50:41 Lets ****ing hear it for the European Court of Human Rights As for "innocent people commit crimes"... one of my criminology lecturers told us this story. I think it was about Edwin Sutherland. He said Sutherland was asked how to identify criminals before they committed a crime. Sutherland said "That's easy. Take any class of six year olds and split them up into boys and girls. The boys are your likely candidates." That's because Sutherland was a bigoted idiot. DNA evidence is circumstancial evidence anyway. I don't really see what the fuss is about. I swear, people get so paranoid about human rights violations and suchlike that sometimes they go too far and block perfectly sensible procedures because there is a slight possibility of abuse in there somewhere. - Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Valan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:21:00 - [15] No because a lot of coppers are fools and DNA isn't foolproof. Easy evidence isn't the way to go. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:29:00 - [16] Hmm. Personally I think the word 'rights' should be broadly replaced with the word 'responsibilities' when it comes to the ECHR. The police service should simply offer an open clinic once a month at all stations so those who wish to give up their DNA can do so. Same goes for the NHS's transplant service. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:40:00 - [17] Edited by: Xen Gin on 05/12/2008 16:40:07 I'm a fan of keeping the sample on file for 2 years then it gets destroyed. Yes, if you want them to keep it on the register permanently, because you don't plan to commit crimes that's fine. But I don't want some ham handed lab tech mixing up samples (Yes it does happen!) of mine with some raving psycho loony, then they bring me in, don't do any detective work, and pronounce me guilty just because of DNA evidence. Some methods of DNA replication have flaws in them, and probably shouldn't be used as evidence. The general problem with this, is that they will just end up on convictions by use of DNA evidence, without any proper checking, because the authorities believe its the perfect evidence, when clearly anyone who can shake your hand can gain samples to use against you.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:30:00 - [18] Originally by: Dong Ninja "If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about!" At least until a racial supremacist government comes to power and begins tracking you for capture and extermination by means setup by the previous paranoid government who saw its citizens just as dangerous as criminals. But hey when has anything like this happened before in human history -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:40:00 - [19] Indeed, governments forget that they have a duty of care to the future. They have added so many weapons to the arsenal of any future tyranny, you have to wonder what our descendants' prospects will be.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Indeed, governments forget that they have a duty of care to the future. They have added so many weapons to the arsenal of any future tyranny, you have to wonder what our descendants' prospects will be. Heh, in my opinion the age of revolutions, new countries forming, and so forth have long sence past or at least is far more difficult to achive. We have weapons that launch thousands of rounds a minute, WMD's that can level entire cities in an instant, hell we have the power to turn this place into molten slag several times over. The last thing we citizens need is our governments having our DNA on record, tracking chips in our hands, and know us better than we do ourselves. Governments are made by people, and history has shown us how dark humanity can be. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.05 19:01:00 - [21] I see the potential benefits of having a DNA bank. But if this is going to be iomplemented then we need to start taking DNA from you as a new born. I for one do not agree with it even though I think it could do some good. But to those of you who have said if you have not committed a crime then you have nothing to worry about. To them I say, "you then have to worry about being framed." DNA is only part of the equation yet it has been used to convict many innocent individuals. The following quote is from an article written by a prosecutor that does a good job of pointing out boths sides of this argument. Originally by: David Meier But ideally, a prosecutorÆs office reaches a level where it is willing to go into a familyÆs living room after they have come to court, after they have gone through a trial, after twelve people have found the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and after the Supreme Judicial Court has reviewed the entire case and affirmed the conviction, and tell the fam-ily that because of DNA evidence the defendant has been exonerated. When a prosecutorÆs office reaches this level, then I think confidently and comfortably these prosecutors have successfully created an environment where they are working day-in and day-out to do exactly the same thing that other offices are now doing by establishing innocence units whichfocus on those who may have been wrongly convicted. This does not mean that every prosecutor in my office is focusing on the wrongly con-victed, but my office does have a greater awareness of this problem. Peo-ple do make good faith mistakes in identification. There are bad police officers on the job and there are people who do what Peter Neufeld de-scribed to induce individuals of lower level intelligence to falsely confess. Slade Originally by: Crumplecorn NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine. ≡v≡
mamolian Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2008.12.05 20:05:00 - [22] Edited by: mamolian on 05/12/2008 20:05:23 Originally by: Vistilantus I am a firm believer that EVERYONE's DNA should be taken and stored on a DB, not only would it help in finding possible donors faster for those on the OD waiting list but it will help the cops nail criminals aswell :) To hell with human rights. **ing dumbass. Get down on your knees n suck that devil **. HARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR -----------
Vertex Eisenstein Gallente Gruecorp	Posted - 2008.12.05 21:04:00 - [23] Quote: "If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about!" Not really. Although the test itself is extremely reliable there is still a small chance of someone else with the same set of polymorphisms being out there. There have been cases where DNA has pointed at the wrong suspect. Some years ago a guy in the UK was visited by the police after being identified as being present at the scene of a burglary close to his home via a database match. When the police questioned him it became clear it could not have been him as he had become massively disabled since he was placed on the DB. After that the the number of camparisons made in the test was increased to lower the odds of false positives. In canada a guy was identified as a suspect in a case, but he had a cast iron alibi. Turns out he had recieved a bone marrow transplant from his brother who had actually committed the crime. (reported in the Journal "Transfusion" sometime in 2006) These cases are rare, but they do exist. What is far more common is laboratory error (cross contamination, mislabelling etc.), sampling error (mislabelling, contamination, inappropriate sampling) or simply a deliberate stich-up by the police. One thing to note is that the smaller the sample, the less trustworthy the test becomes due to the increased number of PCR cycles required to amplify the DNA. Each cycle introduces a chance of contamination, and any non target materieal that gets in there will be amplified the same as the target sequence. As a trained molecular biologist who has worked in analytical labs and seen the sort of errors that occur in RL, I would never convict on DNA evidence alone.
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.06 00:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Vertex Eisenstein As a trained molecular biologist who has worked in analytical labs and seen the sort of errors that occur in RL, I would never convict on DNA evidence alone. A quick question.. So when the police get a DNA sample do they digitize it so it can be compared in the future or do they just store it? If you can digitize the relevant information, it would be written to write only media (to stop tampering and the original analogue sample archived) for chain of evidence purposes and stuck in some data silo. The UKGOV are fantastic at losing digital information. If it was to get into the hands of, say, the insurance industry, could they use it to discriminate against citizens? ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.06 00:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Cmdr Sy Indeed, governments forget that they have a duty of care to the future. They have added so many weapons to the arsenal of any future tyranny, you have to wonder what our descendants' prospects will be. Heh, in my opinion the age of revolutions, new countries forming, and so forth have long sence past or at least is far more difficult to achive. We have weapons that launch thousands of rounds a minute, WMD's that can level entire cities in an instant, hell we have the power to turn this place into molten slag several times over. And those who wish to take over can't gain access to these weapons can they? On the topic of DNA, I would want more than DNA evidence to convict me or even have me as a suspect. Imagine if you got pulled in and accused of r ape and murder. Once word gets out, you're a target for every vigilante in the country. Even if they find you innocent, you're immediately branded by everyone by the fact that your DNA evidence was found at the scene. FFS, you may just have stopped behind the same bush to take a pee on your way home an hour before it happened but now everyone thinks you did it because they found your urine on her clothes. Your life would be a misery from that day on and you didn't do anything but pass by that same spot. All that because you got pulled up late one night drunk and had a DNA sample taken. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.12.06 00:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Cmdr Sy Indeed, governments forget that they have a duty of care to the future. They have added so many weapons to the arsenal of any future tyranny, you have to wonder what our descendants' prospects will be. Heh, in my opinion the age of revolutions, new countries forming, and so forth have long sence past or at least is far more difficult to achive. We have weapons that launch thousands of rounds a minute, WMD's that can level entire cities in an instant, hell we have the power to turn this place into molten slag several times over. And those who wish to take over can't gain access to these weapons can they? As soon as you can figure out a way someone can get their hands on a WMD long enough for it to be of any use in a bid to take over a nation let me know, and no, senerios from movies dont count. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.12.06 01:32:00 - [27] So you Brits feel the need for a DNA database of all the citizen but reject the idea of having an ID card? You are crazy people... ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.06 02:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Dmian So you Brits feel the need for a DNA database of all the citizen but reject the idea of having an ID card? You are crazy people... ID card strikes the same thoughts of Fascism, while DNA databases haven't gotten enough publicly appreciated bad karma yet. Its that simple.
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2008.12.06 03:27:00 - [29] Edited by: Xen Gin on 06/12/2008 03:30:38 Edited by: Xen Gin on 06/12/2008 03:29:24 Originally by: Dr Slaughter Originally by: Vertex Eisenstein As a trained molecular biologist who has worked in analytical labs and seen the sort of errors that occur in RL, I would never convict on DNA evidence alone. A quick question.. So when the police get a DNA sample do they digitize it so it can be compared in the future or do they just store it? If you can digitize the relevant information, it would be written to write only media (to stop tampering and the original analogue sample archived) for chain of evidence purposes and stuck in some data silo. The UKGOV are fantastic at losing digital information. If it was to get into the hands of, say, the insurance industry, could they use it to discriminate against citizens? Yes, it is digitised, and they probably do keep sample copies. This is also one of the issues with a DNA database, the government will realise that they can eventually sell access to the data for use by insurance companies, corporations and other maligned entities. Don't say they will, because they promised not to bring in ID cards at one point. ID cards are also another useless intrusion and security issue, because you know they will lose data, foreign hackers will almost certainly penetrate it. The government is saying this ID database wont be on-line. So how do they verify the cards with the database? Because they can't check with the main database, faked ID cards will almost certainly prosper (they can't stop people faking passports or stealing the technology to make passports, why would ID cards be different?). Also why would it stop terrorism? Does it read peoples thoughts? Does it tell us that the people who were born in the UK and lived here since then have intentions of turning themselves into walking bombs? What stops the legit Asylum seeker coming here, gaining an ID card and blowing themselves up. The government wont answer any of these! Why, because they know ID cards are only a tax and a way to spy and control those who get them. The worst part is forcing students to have ID cards or they wont be allowed access to university or funding for said schooling. Who do these people think we all are!? This country does not fear terrorism unlike the US, despite what the government says, and any attempt to remove freedoms for a sense of security and protection will be met by fierce opposition at every level!
Captain Hudson Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.06 04:42:00 - [30] European Court can suck my **, they wanna screw the UK over anymore?. Wanna deport a criminal back to his country? No you cant, its against his human rights! **s Iv found him

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