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Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 08:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/12/2008 08:08:54 Well, as much as I like the shield-tanked Harbinger, I think it's time to post a much better ship. The Phantasm has become my new favorite pirate ship: it's fast, it hits hard, tanks well, and even has some decent anti-frigate options. [Phantasm, T2 only] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Ancillary Current Router I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x3 For purposes of discussion, I'm going to assume that you already understand the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship (and feel that one would be the correct ship for you) and just compare it to the other options: ZSE vs. Zealot: + More tank than typical Zealot setups. + More speed than tanked Zealot setups. + Neuts + drones to deal with frigates. + Better tracking. = Essentially identical dps (1 dps more with Scorch, 12 dps less with ANMF). = Identical range (both hit the full 24km scramble range with Scorch). - Slower than full glass-cannon Zealot setups (as most will fit nanos/overdrives). - Unable to snipe from outside scramble range as effectively. - Weaker tank than tanked Zealot, if anyone ever actually used one. - High cost. The Phantasm is the most expensive faction cruiser, about 2-3x the cost of a Zealot or NOmen. ZSE vs. Navy Omen: + Much better tank. + Better tracking. + Two neuts instead of one. - Slightly slower (assuming you don't try to tank the NOmen). - Somewhat lower dps (about 60 dps). - 3x drones instead of 5x. ZSE vs. Harbinger: + Faster, especially if the Harbinger is armor tanked. + Better tracking. + More dps if the Harbinger uses ECM drones or FMPs. + More neuting (again, 2x vs. 1x). - Less dps than HP II Harbinger. - No gang mod. - Smaller drone bay. - Weaker tank. So there's tradeoffs no matter how you do it, but in my opinion, the Phantasm has the best compromise. DPS is just as good as the others, and the ability to fit the buffer tank of a battlecruiser while keeping full dps, mobility and cap stability is just amazing. Compared to the Zealot and NOmen, it provides similar offense while avoiding the glass-cannon problem that plagues both ships, as well as the Zealot's major problems dealing with frigates. Compared to the Harbinger, the vastly superior speed more than makes up for the somewhat weaker performance in a close-range slugging match. I'd argue that the Harbinger, as a BC, is too slow to even do the Phantasm's job at all, but it does make a good budget alternative. -----------
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.08 08:49:00 - [2] Originally by: Merin Ryskin + More speed than tanked Zealot setups Anything but a 1600mm plate zealot will outpace a Phantasm that isn't rigged for speed. 800mm plate Zealots are actually somewhat popular, as you can fit a zealot with an 800mm plate, 5xHPLIIs, MWDII and one energy weapons rig (most often a Locus rig) with AWUV and Energy weapon rigging IV. With an 800mm plate the Zealot is capable of matching the phantasm both in terms of buffer (the zealots tank won't regenerate though. Depending on resists it can be slightly less powerful against lasers, but will always match the phantasm when faced with barrage) and speed (slightly faster). ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 08:57:00 - [3] The problem with an 800mm plate setup is you have to give up the cap injector if you want to keep the HP IIs, and you're still going to have less of a HP buffer. To get a tank worth all the fitting problems, you need armor rigs, and those are what kill you. -----------
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Merin Ryskin [Phantasm, T2 only] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Ancillary Current Router I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x3 I like it. Sure, the ship is expensive... but that looks like a pretty solid t2 fit to me. I think I'll try it out.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/12/2008 08:56:56 The problem with an 800mm plate setup is you have to give up the cap injector if you want to keep the HP IIs (it should be obvious why this is a *very* bad idea) and you're still going to have less of a HP buffer. To get a tank worth all the fitting problems, you need armor rigs, and those are what kill you. I actually routinely fit my Zealot without a cap booster - but mine has range rigs which means its lowest optimal range is 15km, outside of medium neut range, and if battleships are involved in the fight I often end up at > 25 km (possibly overloading to hold point, or letting a better ship tackle. I will concede that fighting in web range in a zealot without a cap booster is.. meh. Definitely have to agree that in order to put a decent tank on the thing you have to either sacrifice damage (no, bad idea) or throw speed rigs on, and in either case doing that pretty much just means you'll be better off in a Harbinger. I think for gang I'd definitely stay with the zealot (Zealot + Range rigs is still very much win), but if you want a solo boat this ship is superior... Don't know if it's better/worse than the navy omen though. It's worth pointing out that even without speed mods the Zealot is about 130 m/s faster under MWD. I understand the idea that any range beyond 24km is useless (since it's beyond point range), but I would contest it... Zealot is much much better at melting frigates on approach and can apply dps sooner, and it gets more DPS out to overloaded point range (28km). I'm not sure how often you fly a Zealot, but the 35 km scorch range is absolutely awesome. Also, with a range mod or with navy Gamma or Xray you can get damage from just outside of web range - for example, with navy Gamma and no range mods a zealot gets 14km optimal and 525 dps; the Phantasm would probably have to switch to scorch at that range where it has ~460 dps, which isn't a huge dps change but it's worth mentioning. It's definitely a very competitive fit, in any case, and easily on par with the alternatives. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Terianna Eri I actually routinely fit my Zealot without a cap booster - but mine has range rigs which means its lowest optimal range is 15km, outside of medium neut range, and if battleships are involved in the fight I often end up at > 25 km (possibly overloading to hold point, or letting a better ship tackle. It all goes back to the point of HACs vs. BCs, really: superior mobility. And superior mobility requires heavy use of a MWD, something the Zealot can't sustain without a cap booster. If you can't keep your MWD active, eventually you're going to have to slow down, and that will almost always mean getting into the web/neut/scrambler range you want so desperately to avoid. If you're going to end up in that kind of close-range slugging match, the BC is a much better choice. Quote: It's definitely a very competitive fit, in any case, and easily on par with the alternatives. And this is my main point in posting it. The faction cruisers are almost always overlooked, even when some of them are arguably better than their equivalent HAC (Phantasm, Navy Omen, Navy Caracal, and possibly the Fleet Stabber). The points about range are true... the Zealot's range bonus is far from useless, but on a solo ship (which this setup is intended to be used as) losing it isn't all that much of a problem. Since you'll often be using Scorch with both ships (14km is way too close to 13km web range, IMO) and are limited by the 24km range of warp disruptors, the Phantasm's tracking bonus will often be better than the range bonus. This is especially true since on a solo ship, you're going to have to orbit at less than 24km (I use a 20km orbit) unless you want to risk letting your target get out of range and warp off. -----------
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:43:00 - [7] Edited by: Delichon on 08/12/2008 09:45:44 Originally by: Merin Ryskin [Phantasm, T2 only] Warp Disruptor II For purposes of discussion, I'm going to assume that you already understand the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship Since I can't see how bolded part 1 comes along with bolded part 2, I assume I do not understand "the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship" in your intrepretation. Would be very interested in it(a link to a post in some earlier discussion would do) As for OP - the general Idea of using Phantasm is appealing, but if I would do it as per MY "intrepretation of the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship", I would do it completely different. And never undock it without 2+ shield-tranfer ships in gang (because you would ALWAYS be primary in this thing) P.S. Nevermind my post, I missed your kicker line Quote: soloship (which this setup is intended to be used as) ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:50:00 - [8] Overlooking one very very important fact here though Merin. For the same amount of isk I a can take a Zealot and throw a 30KM warp disrupter on it. Now using scorch at 30km or 36km with overload on the disrupter and everything goes the Zealots way.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/12/2008 09:55:13 Originally by: Delichon Since I can't see how bolded part 1 comes along with bolded part 2, I assume I do not understand "the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship" in your intrepretation. In this context, "mid range" is defined as 15-24km. Close enough to solo, but well outside the range of the other popular solo ships (blasters and ACs). The assumption is that you've already decided you want to fly something like that, but still can't decide between the very similar options. After all, there are four different pulse ships that could potentially fill that role, and the differences between them are subtle and very much up for debate. Quote: Would be very interested in it(a link to a post in some earlier discussion would do) Just search around for general Zealot discussion. I suppose I could write up an explanation and add it, but it's too late tonight. Quote: As for OP - the general Idea of using Phantasm is appealing, but if I would do it as per MY "intrepretation of the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship", I would do it completely different. And never undock it without 2+ shield-tranfer ships in gang (because you would ALWAYS be primary in this thing) Feel free to post your own setup, if you have something good I might have to steal it. And screw shield transfers, not only are you not always going to be primaried (only an idiot or a FC with a huge blob advantage primaries a ship based on its ISK cost instead of its threat to his fleet), but the main point of the setup was for solo piracy. The most I'm expecting to fly with is 3-5 people, so talking about dual logistics ships is kind of silly. Originally by: fkingfurious Overlooking one very very important fact here though Merin. For the same amount of isk I a can take a Zealot and throw a 30KM warp disrupter on it. Now using scorch at 30km or 36km with overload on the disrupter and everything goes the Zealots way. This is true. A faction disruptor makes a huge difference on a Zealot, but it still leaves two big problems: 1) The point is not a 1v1 comparison of whether a Zealot will beat a Phantasm, it's a question of which one to pick for general PvP. It should already be obvious that a Zealot is a bad matchup, as the Phantasm's tank is much weaker against an EM-heavy Zealot. 2) The Zealot, even with a 30km point, still has the other two problems I mentioned: poor tank, and vulnerability to frigates. Tracking is still a minor problem, you can counter it to some degree with your increased range, but you'll lose dps if you can't stay at 30km. -----------
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:29:00 - [10] Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 08/12/2008 14:30:41 Hm, drop one LSE+ACR for Invul+CDFE? Also, for soloing.. you're kind of at a tradeoff with Navy Omen here. HG Slaved NOmen would have much better buffer(iirc, 70% more, let's say just 50% due to recharge blah-blah). NOmen vs Pants + More tank + Web + Full flight of lights(better antifrig capability) + Scanres (15% difference) = DPS - 1 neut instead of 2(which shouldn't matter much in reality, but still) - range - tracking - agility - slower - lacks injector I'd say it all depends on if you have HG Slaves and what are you fighting. PS. Slightly unrelated, Pants is more of an aggro-magnet it seems

Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:40:00 - [11] My actually fit : 3x heavy pulse II, 2x small neutra II 1x 10mn mwd II, 2x lse II, 1x med cap inj II, 1x web/eccm/TD, 1x disruptor II 2x heat sink II, 1x dc II 2x rigs shield ext, 1x pg rigs 3x warrior II but i prefer my omen navy : 5x focused pulse II 1x 10mn mwd II, 1x web/small cap inj/eccm, 1x disruptor II 1x 1600mm rt, 2x ts eanm, 1x dc II, 2x heat sink II, 1x tracking enhancer II 2x trimark rigs, 1x pg rigs (19k armor with hg slave) 5x warrior II
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:07:00 - [12] Edited by: Myrkala on 12/12/2008 19:07:58 I like the fit, and I agree with most of what you say. It's got room for about 7x800 Cap Charges, but I doubt if you would be using the neuts a lot, wouldn't packing 400 Cap Charges better? Or a mix maybe? With good skills you can run everything on (mwd+guns+neuts) for 2 minutes, and run the neuts+guns with the mwd turned off as long as you have 400's. That's about what? 14-15 charges? "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:28:00 - [13] Edited by: RedSplat on 12/12/2008 19:34:03 How does the Sac stack up against everyone's favourite faction cruiser? EDIT: Apart from issues with range that is There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:29:00 - [14] A Phantasm is currently like 220 mill or so on contract. For that price I can get a Zealot, a 30KM warp disrupter and c-type adaptive nanos to ease my CPU problems, which all adds up to a very tasty 30km (or 36 with overheat) kill zone. I know which one I'll be flying.
Myra2007 Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:39:00 - [15] Originally by: bldyannoyed A Phantasm is currently like 220 mill or so on contract. For that price I can get a Zealot, a 30KM warp disrupter and c-type adaptive nanos to ease my CPU problems, which all adds up to a very tasty 30km (or 36 with overheat) kill zone. I know which one I'll be flying. But then you paid a whole lot of money for a solo ship that still has no small ship defence. Might as well end up as a comedy killmail, i.e. killed by a ranis or w/e. -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:54:00 - [16] Originally by: bldyannoyed A Phantasm is currently like 220 mill or so on contract. For that price I can get a Zealot, a 30KM warp disrupter and c-type adaptive nanos to ease my CPU problems, which all adds up to a very tasty 30km (or 36 with overheat) kill zone. I know which one I'll be flying. While a Zealot with a faction disruptor is a good ship, it does still have two major drawbacks that the Phantasm fixes: 1) Lack of frigate defense. Without neuts/drones, anything that gets in close will kill you, and all you can do is watch and wait for the killmail. 2x small neuts and 3x light drones give you a decent shot at removing a tackler. 2) Lack of tank. While that range is an awesome defense against a lot of ships, anything that can hit you will quickly force you to warp out. The Phantasm gives you the option to fit a decent tank without slowing you down (fatal for a Zealot). There are arguments for the faction Zealot, but it's far from as one-sided as you make it sound. Originally by: Myrkala It's got room for about 7x800 Cap Charges, but I doubt if you would be using the neuts a lot, wouldn't packing 400 Cap Charges better? Or a mix maybe? 400 and 800 charges both give you the same cap per m3, so if you don't need the cap, you can just use an 800 charge half as often. On the other hand, the 800 charges give you the ability to perma-run the MWD and more margin for error if you're being neuted or really need to run your own neuts. -----------
bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:01:00 - [17] I'll agree wholeheartedly on the frigate thing. Not so sure about the lack of tank though. The fit I run on my Zealot has 45K EHP and a massive 100 dps (LOL) tank provided by a c-type small rep. Not on a par with the Phantasm certainly but it's not gonna roll over either, and at 25-30km the amount of actual incoming DPS is severly reduced.
Galliana Foresta Armada.	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:08:00 - [18] Wat, no afterburner?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:11:00 - [19] Originally by: bldyannoyed I'll agree wholeheartedly on the frigate thing. Not so sure about the lack of tank though. The fit I run on my Zealot has 45K EHP and a massive 100 dps (LOL) tank provided by a c-type small rep. Not on a par with the Phantasm certainly but it's not gonna roll over either, and at 25-30km the amount of actual incoming DPS is severly reduced. And how much speed did you lose to fit that tank? While it's possible to get a decent tank on a Zealot with a plate + rigs, mid-range ships live or die by their speed. Do you really want to give up so much of it for a tank that won't save you if you get caught in web/scram range? Originally by: Galliana Foresta Wat, no afterburner? On a ship that needs to stay at 20km, or it dies? No thanks, I'll take a MWD and avoid becoming a comedy killmail. -----------
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Galliana Foresta Wat, no afterburner? ? That was a bad joke if joke at all tbh.

bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:14:00 - [21] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 12/12/2008 20:16:15 That tank is an 800 plate and some resists. It's still faster than a Phantasm. It wouldn't be with trimarks fitted but it doesnt have them so :P EDIT: Just looked. Actually the 40K odd buffer on the Zealot is better than the Phantasm. And it's got (slightly) better top end and aligns significantly faster, even with the plate on. Yay Zealot.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:19:00 - [22] Originally by: bldyannoyed Edited by: bldyannoyed on 12/12/2008 20:16:15 That tank is an 800 plate and some resists. It's still faster than a Phantasm. It wouldn't be with trimarks fitted but it doesnt have them so :P Mind posting the exact setup? To get 45k buffer (what I have on the Phantasm, yay siege mindlink) on the Zealot, every setup I tried either lost dps (from no heatsinks and/or smaller guns), lost the cap injector (no grid from a plate), or lost a ton of speed (from plates/rigs). Are you counting a slave set? -----------
bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:28:00 - [23] Yeah, my bad Merin, counting an LG Slave set on that. Without the buffer is 34K eHP with no gangs. The fit is: 5x HP II 10MN MWd II, TS WD, Medium Electro-chem 800RT, DCU II, EANM II, C-Type ANP, C-Type SAR (like i said ,LOL) 2x HS II ACR and one more to flavour. Needs a 1% PG implant to fit a laser rig (with rigging 4) or a 3% to fit one with rigging 3. I don't see the point of a Locus as skills alone gets your optimal out to 34km or so. Has a whopping .75tf to spare
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:32:00 - [24] Nice ship MR. Its is truly a nice mix between a caldari and amarr. I guess you can add a DCU II for more buffer if needed, tho losing some dps :P. Only down side of it is the horrible cost :P
Flamable Content	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:42:00 - [25] A cloaking Raven would do the job better...
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:04:00 - [26] I so pwn your phantasm in my stealthbomber. Actually im hoping it will die to a pack of stealthbombers. -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!! Please resixe image to the maxiumum allowed filesize of 400 x 120 pixels. Navigator
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:25:00 - [27] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 13/12/2008 03:26:38 Originally by: Flamable Content A cloaking Raven would do the job better... What? :P Not really, sure the ship is expencive, but a cloaking Raven have the locking speed and velocity of nothing :P. I am pretty suret his ships would be way fun to fly, and that what its about. As for the stealth bomber idea, yeah rght :P. I have yet to see any stealth bombers doing any real damage to ships that can basically warp away before tehy even get loc, yet alone let the missiles hit you.
Murkon Salesgirl	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:32:00 - [28] See, if i had an endless supply of isk that i didn't need to work to obtain.. i would consider flying something as comedic as a phantasm for pvp purposes.
Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:41:00 - [29] Tonight i killed : punisher/thorax/rapier with my phantasm (fast), expensive, true, but really good ship :) (tracking bonus just so good actually)
Removal Tool Reptilian Reality	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:58:00 - [30] I'd be very paranoid about NOS, even with the Cap Booster. I like the fit though. Swap the Neuts for NOS.



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