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Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 08:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/12/2008 08:08:54 Well, as much as I like the shield-tanked Harbinger, I think it's time to post a much better ship. The Phantasm has become my new favorite pirate ship: it's fast, it hits hard, tanks well, and even has some decent anti-frigate options. [Phantasm, T2 only] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Ancillary Current Router I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x3 For purposes of discussion, I'm going to assume that you already understand the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship (and feel that one would be the correct ship for you) and just compare it to the other options: ZSE vs. Zealot: + More tank than typical Zealot setups. + More speed than tanked Zealot setups. + Neuts + drones to deal with frigates. + Better tracking. = Essentially identical dps (1 dps more with Scorch, 12 dps less with ANMF). = Identical range (both hit the full 24km scramble range with Scorch). - Slower than full glass-cannon Zealot setups (as most will fit nanos/overdrives). - Unable to snipe from outside scramble range as effectively. - Weaker tank than tanked Zealot, if anyone ever actually used one. - High cost. The Phantasm is the most expensive faction cruiser, about 2-3x the cost of a Zealot or NOmen. ZSE vs. Navy Omen: + Much better tank. + Better tracking. + Two neuts instead of one. - Slightly slower (assuming you don't try to tank the NOmen). - Somewhat lower dps (about 60 dps). - 3x drones instead of 5x. ZSE vs. Harbinger: + Faster, especially if the Harbinger is armor tanked. + Better tracking. + More dps if the Harbinger uses ECM drones or FMPs. + More neuting (again, 2x vs. 1x). - Less dps than HP II Harbinger. - No gang mod. - Smaller drone bay. - Weaker tank. So there's tradeoffs no matter how you do it, but in my opinion, the Phantasm has the best compromise. DPS is just as good as the others, and the ability to fit the buffer tank of a battlecruiser while keeping full dps, mobility and cap stability is just amazing. Compared to the Zealot and NOmen, it provides similar offense while avoiding the glass-cannon problem that plagues both ships, as well as the Zealot's major problems dealing with frigates. Compared to the Harbinger, the vastly superior speed more than makes up for the somewhat weaker performance in a close-range slugging match. I'd argue that the Harbinger, as a BC, is too slow to even do the Phantasm's job at all, but it does make a good budget alternative. -----------
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.08 08:49:00 - [2] Originally by: Merin Ryskin + More speed than tanked Zealot setups Anything but a 1600mm plate zealot will outpace a Phantasm that isn't rigged for speed. 800mm plate Zealots are actually somewhat popular, as you can fit a zealot with an 800mm plate, 5xHPLIIs, MWDII and one energy weapons rig (most often a Locus rig) with AWUV and Energy weapon rigging IV. With an 800mm plate the Zealot is capable of matching the phantasm both in terms of buffer (the zealots tank won't regenerate though. Depending on resists it can be slightly less powerful against lasers, but will always match the phantasm when faced with barrage) and speed (slightly faster). ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 08:57:00 - [3] The problem with an 800mm plate setup is you have to give up the cap injector if you want to keep the HP IIs, and you're still going to have less of a HP buffer. To get a tank worth all the fitting problems, you need armor rigs, and those are what kill you. -----------
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Merin Ryskin [Phantasm, T2 only] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Ancillary Current Router I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x3 I like it. Sure, the ship is expensive... but that looks like a pretty solid t2 fit to me. I think I'll try it out.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/12/2008 08:56:56 The problem with an 800mm plate setup is you have to give up the cap injector if you want to keep the HP IIs (it should be obvious why this is a *very* bad idea) and you're still going to have less of a HP buffer. To get a tank worth all the fitting problems, you need armor rigs, and those are what kill you. I actually routinely fit my Zealot without a cap booster - but mine has range rigs which means its lowest optimal range is 15km, outside of medium neut range, and if battleships are involved in the fight I often end up at > 25 km (possibly overloading to hold point, or letting a better ship tackle. I will concede that fighting in web range in a zealot without a cap booster is.. meh. Definitely have to agree that in order to put a decent tank on the thing you have to either sacrifice damage (no, bad idea) or throw speed rigs on, and in either case doing that pretty much just means you'll be better off in a Harbinger. I think for gang I'd definitely stay with the zealot (Zealot + Range rigs is still very much win), but if you want a solo boat this ship is superior... Don't know if it's better/worse than the navy omen though. It's worth pointing out that even without speed mods the Zealot is about 130 m/s faster under MWD. I understand the idea that any range beyond 24km is useless (since it's beyond point range), but I would contest it... Zealot is much much better at melting frigates on approach and can apply dps sooner, and it gets more DPS out to overloaded point range (28km). I'm not sure how often you fly a Zealot, but the 35 km scorch range is absolutely awesome. Also, with a range mod or with navy Gamma or Xray you can get damage from just outside of web range - for example, with navy Gamma and no range mods a zealot gets 14km optimal and 525 dps; the Phantasm would probably have to switch to scorch at that range where it has ~460 dps, which isn't a huge dps change but it's worth mentioning. It's definitely a very competitive fit, in any case, and easily on par with the alternatives. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Terianna Eri I actually routinely fit my Zealot without a cap booster - but mine has range rigs which means its lowest optimal range is 15km, outside of medium neut range, and if battleships are involved in the fight I often end up at > 25 km (possibly overloading to hold point, or letting a better ship tackle. It all goes back to the point of HACs vs. BCs, really: superior mobility. And superior mobility requires heavy use of a MWD, something the Zealot can't sustain without a cap booster. If you can't keep your MWD active, eventually you're going to have to slow down, and that will almost always mean getting into the web/neut/scrambler range you want so desperately to avoid. If you're going to end up in that kind of close-range slugging match, the BC is a much better choice. Quote: It's definitely a very competitive fit, in any case, and easily on par with the alternatives. And this is my main point in posting it. The faction cruisers are almost always overlooked, even when some of them are arguably better than their equivalent HAC (Phantasm, Navy Omen, Navy Caracal, and possibly the Fleet Stabber). The points about range are true... the Zealot's range bonus is far from useless, but on a solo ship (which this setup is intended to be used as) losing it isn't all that much of a problem. Since you'll often be using Scorch with both ships (14km is way too close to 13km web range, IMO) and are limited by the 24km range of warp disruptors, the Phantasm's tracking bonus will often be better than the range bonus. This is especially true since on a solo ship, you're going to have to orbit at less than 24km (I use a 20km orbit) unless you want to risk letting your target get out of range and warp off. -----------
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:43:00 - [7] Edited by: Delichon on 08/12/2008 09:45:44 Originally by: Merin Ryskin [Phantasm, T2 only] Warp Disruptor II For purposes of discussion, I'm going to assume that you already understand the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship Since I can't see how bolded part 1 comes along with bolded part 2, I assume I do not understand "the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship" in your intrepretation. Would be very interested in it(a link to a post in some earlier discussion would do) As for OP - the general Idea of using Phantasm is appealing, but if I would do it as per MY "intrepretation of the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship", I would do it completely different. And never undock it without 2+ shield-tranfer ships in gang (because you would ALWAYS be primary in this thing) P.S. Nevermind my post, I missed your kicker line Quote: soloship (which this setup is intended to be used as) ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:50:00 - [8] Overlooking one very very important fact here though Merin. For the same amount of isk I a can take a Zealot and throw a 30KM warp disrupter on it. Now using scorch at 30km or 36km with overload on the disrupter and everything goes the Zealots way.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/12/2008 09:55:13 Originally by: Delichon Since I can't see how bolded part 1 comes along with bolded part 2, I assume I do not understand "the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship" in your intrepretation. In this context, "mid range" is defined as 15-24km. Close enough to solo, but well outside the range of the other popular solo ships (blasters and ACs). The assumption is that you've already decided you want to fly something like that, but still can't decide between the very similar options. After all, there are four different pulse ships that could potentially fill that role, and the differences between them are subtle and very much up for debate. Quote: Would be very interested in it(a link to a post in some earlier discussion would do) Just search around for general Zealot discussion. I suppose I could write up an explanation and add it, but it's too late tonight. Quote: As for OP - the general Idea of using Phantasm is appealing, but if I would do it as per MY "intrepretation of the strengths and weaknesses of a fast mid-range ship", I would do it completely different. And never undock it without 2+ shield-tranfer ships in gang (because you would ALWAYS be primary in this thing) Feel free to post your own setup, if you have something good I might have to steal it. And screw shield transfers, not only are you not always going to be primaried (only an idiot or a FC with a huge blob advantage primaries a ship based on its ISK cost instead of its threat to his fleet), but the main point of the setup was for solo piracy. The most I'm expecting to fly with is 3-5 people, so talking about dual logistics ships is kind of silly. Originally by: fkingfurious Overlooking one very very important fact here though Merin. For the same amount of isk I a can take a Zealot and throw a 30KM warp disrupter on it. Now using scorch at 30km or 36km with overload on the disrupter and everything goes the Zealots way. This is true. A faction disruptor makes a huge difference on a Zealot, but it still leaves two big problems: 1) The point is not a 1v1 comparison of whether a Zealot will beat a Phantasm, it's a question of which one to pick for general PvP. It should already be obvious that a Zealot is a bad matchup, as the Phantasm's tank is much weaker against an EM-heavy Zealot. 2) The Zealot, even with a 30km point, still has the other two problems I mentioned: poor tank, and vulnerability to frigates. Tracking is still a minor problem, you can counter it to some degree with your increased range, but you'll lose dps if you can't stay at 30km. -----------
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:29:00 - [10] Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 08/12/2008 14:30:41 Hm, drop one LSE+ACR for Invul+CDFE? Also, for soloing.. you're kind of at a tradeoff with Navy Omen here. HG Slaved NOmen would have much better buffer(iirc, 70% more, let's say just 50% due to recharge blah-blah). NOmen vs Pants + More tank + Web + Full flight of lights(better antifrig capability) + Scanres (15% difference) = DPS - 1 neut instead of 2(which shouldn't matter much in reality, but still) - range - tracking - agility - slower - lacks injector I'd say it all depends on if you have HG Slaves and what are you fighting. PS. Slightly unrelated, Pants is more of an aggro-magnet it seems

Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:40:00 - [11] My actually fit : 3x heavy pulse II, 2x small neutra II 1x 10mn mwd II, 2x lse II, 1x med cap inj II, 1x web/eccm/TD, 1x disruptor II 2x heat sink II, 1x dc II 2x rigs shield ext, 1x pg rigs 3x warrior II but i prefer my omen navy : 5x focused pulse II 1x 10mn mwd II, 1x web/small cap inj/eccm, 1x disruptor II 1x 1600mm rt, 2x ts eanm, 1x dc II, 2x heat sink II, 1x tracking enhancer II 2x trimark rigs, 1x pg rigs (19k armor with hg slave) 5x warrior II
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:07:00 - [12] Edited by: Myrkala on 12/12/2008 19:07:58 I like the fit, and I agree with most of what you say. It's got room for about 7x800 Cap Charges, but I doubt if you would be using the neuts a lot, wouldn't packing 400 Cap Charges better? Or a mix maybe? With good skills you can run everything on (mwd+guns+neuts) for 2 minutes, and run the neuts+guns with the mwd turned off as long as you have 400's. That's about what? 14-15 charges? "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:28:00 - [13] Edited by: RedSplat on 12/12/2008 19:34:03 How does the Sac stack up against everyone's favourite faction cruiser? EDIT: Apart from issues with range that is There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:29:00 - [14] A Phantasm is currently like 220 mill or so on contract. For that price I can get a Zealot, a 30KM warp disrupter and c-type adaptive nanos to ease my CPU problems, which all adds up to a very tasty 30km (or 36 with overheat) kill zone. I know which one I'll be flying.
Myra2007 Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:39:00 - [15] Originally by: bldyannoyed A Phantasm is currently like 220 mill or so on contract. For that price I can get a Zealot, a 30KM warp disrupter and c-type adaptive nanos to ease my CPU problems, which all adds up to a very tasty 30km (or 36 with overheat) kill zone. I know which one I'll be flying. But then you paid a whole lot of money for a solo ship that still has no small ship defence. Might as well end up as a comedy killmail, i.e. killed by a ranis or w/e. -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:54:00 - [16] Originally by: bldyannoyed A Phantasm is currently like 220 mill or so on contract. For that price I can get a Zealot, a 30KM warp disrupter and c-type adaptive nanos to ease my CPU problems, which all adds up to a very tasty 30km (or 36 with overheat) kill zone. I know which one I'll be flying. While a Zealot with a faction disruptor is a good ship, it does still have two major drawbacks that the Phantasm fixes: 1) Lack of frigate defense. Without neuts/drones, anything that gets in close will kill you, and all you can do is watch and wait for the killmail. 2x small neuts and 3x light drones give you a decent shot at removing a tackler. 2) Lack of tank. While that range is an awesome defense against a lot of ships, anything that can hit you will quickly force you to warp out. The Phantasm gives you the option to fit a decent tank without slowing you down (fatal for a Zealot). There are arguments for the faction Zealot, but it's far from as one-sided as you make it sound. Originally by: Myrkala It's got room for about 7x800 Cap Charges, but I doubt if you would be using the neuts a lot, wouldn't packing 400 Cap Charges better? Or a mix maybe? 400 and 800 charges both give you the same cap per m3, so if you don't need the cap, you can just use an 800 charge half as often. On the other hand, the 800 charges give you the ability to perma-run the MWD and more margin for error if you're being neuted or really need to run your own neuts. -----------
bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:01:00 - [17] I'll agree wholeheartedly on the frigate thing. Not so sure about the lack of tank though. The fit I run on my Zealot has 45K EHP and a massive 100 dps (LOL) tank provided by a c-type small rep. Not on a par with the Phantasm certainly but it's not gonna roll over either, and at 25-30km the amount of actual incoming DPS is severly reduced.
Galliana Foresta Armada.	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:08:00 - [18] Wat, no afterburner?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:11:00 - [19] Originally by: bldyannoyed I'll agree wholeheartedly on the frigate thing. Not so sure about the lack of tank though. The fit I run on my Zealot has 45K EHP and a massive 100 dps (LOL) tank provided by a c-type small rep. Not on a par with the Phantasm certainly but it's not gonna roll over either, and at 25-30km the amount of actual incoming DPS is severly reduced. And how much speed did you lose to fit that tank? While it's possible to get a decent tank on a Zealot with a plate + rigs, mid-range ships live or die by their speed. Do you really want to give up so much of it for a tank that won't save you if you get caught in web/scram range? Originally by: Galliana Foresta Wat, no afterburner? On a ship that needs to stay at 20km, or it dies? No thanks, I'll take a MWD and avoid becoming a comedy killmail. -----------
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Galliana Foresta Wat, no afterburner? ? That was a bad joke if joke at all tbh.

bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:14:00 - [21] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 12/12/2008 20:16:15 That tank is an 800 plate and some resists. It's still faster than a Phantasm. It wouldn't be with trimarks fitted but it doesnt have them so :P EDIT: Just looked. Actually the 40K odd buffer on the Zealot is better than the Phantasm. And it's got (slightly) better top end and aligns significantly faster, even with the plate on. Yay Zealot.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:19:00 - [22] Originally by: bldyannoyed Edited by: bldyannoyed on 12/12/2008 20:16:15 That tank is an 800 plate and some resists. It's still faster than a Phantasm. It wouldn't be with trimarks fitted but it doesnt have them so :P Mind posting the exact setup? To get 45k buffer (what I have on the Phantasm, yay siege mindlink) on the Zealot, every setup I tried either lost dps (from no heatsinks and/or smaller guns), lost the cap injector (no grid from a plate), or lost a ton of speed (from plates/rigs). Are you counting a slave set? -----------
bldyannoyed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:28:00 - [23] Yeah, my bad Merin, counting an LG Slave set on that. Without the buffer is 34K eHP with no gangs. The fit is: 5x HP II 10MN MWd II, TS WD, Medium Electro-chem 800RT, DCU II, EANM II, C-Type ANP, C-Type SAR (like i said ,LOL) 2x HS II ACR and one more to flavour. Needs a 1% PG implant to fit a laser rig (with rigging 4) or a 3% to fit one with rigging 3. I don't see the point of a Locus as skills alone gets your optimal out to 34km or so. Has a whopping .75tf to spare
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:32:00 - [24] Nice ship MR. Its is truly a nice mix between a caldari and amarr. I guess you can add a DCU II for more buffer if needed, tho losing some dps :P. Only down side of it is the horrible cost :P
Flamable Content	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:42:00 - [25] A cloaking Raven would do the job better...
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:04:00 - [26] I so pwn your phantasm in my stealthbomber. Actually im hoping it will die to a pack of stealthbombers. -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!! Please resixe image to the maxiumum allowed filesize of 400 x 120 pixels. Navigator
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:25:00 - [27] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 13/12/2008 03:26:38 Originally by: Flamable Content A cloaking Raven would do the job better... What? :P Not really, sure the ship is expencive, but a cloaking Raven have the locking speed and velocity of nothing :P. I am pretty suret his ships would be way fun to fly, and that what its about. As for the stealth bomber idea, yeah rght :P. I have yet to see any stealth bombers doing any real damage to ships that can basically warp away before tehy even get loc, yet alone let the missiles hit you.
Murkon Salesgirl	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:32:00 - [28] See, if i had an endless supply of isk that i didn't need to work to obtain.. i would consider flying something as comedic as a phantasm for pvp purposes.
Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:41:00 - [29] Tonight i killed : punisher/thorax/rapier with my phantasm (fast), expensive, true, but really good ship :) (tracking bonus just so good actually)
Removal Tool Reptilian Reality	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:58:00 - [30] I'd be very paranoid about NOS, even with the Cap Booster. I like the fit though. Swap the Neuts for NOS.

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:43:00 - [31] Originally by: Removal Tool I'd be very paranoid about NOS, even with the Cap Booster. I like the fit though. Swap the Neuts for NOS. The problem with NOS is you aren't supposed to be close enough to use them. If you are, something has gone badly wrong, and you need the target's cap down ASAP to get the web/scram off and get back out to 20km. NOS won't deal with a scrambler frigate disabling your MWD, if you manage to get your cap down low enough for the NOS to work, you're dead. Dual small neuts, on the other hand, will quickly wreck a frigate's cap and make them an easy kill. -----------
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:46:00 - [32] You should swap the third heat sink for a suitcase. It is a marginal drop in absolute DPS but yields over 10k extra effective hit points. Other than that, very decent and "cheap" fitting for an awesome ship .
Removal Tool Reptilian Reality	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:30:00 - [33] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Removal Tool I'd be very paranoid about NOS, even with the Cap Booster. I like the fit though. Swap the Neuts for NOS. The problem with NOS is you aren't supposed to be close enough to use them. If you are, something has gone badly wrong, and you need the target's cap down ASAP to get the web/scram off and get back out to 20km. NOS won't deal with a scrambler frigate disabling your MWD, if you manage to get your cap down low enough for the NOS to work, you're dead. Dual small neuts, on the other hand, will quickly wreck a frigate's cap and make them an easy kill. Yes I agree with the neuts vs frigs, but the 2 neuts work against your cap obviously and TBO I'm just paranoid about NOS for the upclose gank. Rather be in something less cap vulnerable if I'm going to be in neut range.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Removal Tool Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Removal Tool I'd be very paranoid about NOS, even with the Cap Booster. I like the fit though. Swap the Neuts for NOS. The problem with NOS is you aren't supposed to be close enough to use them. If you are, something has gone badly wrong, and you need the target's cap down ASAP to get the web/scram off and get back out to 20km. NOS won't deal with a scrambler frigate disabling your MWD, if you manage to get your cap down low enough for the NOS to work, you're dead. Dual small neuts, on the other hand, will quickly wreck a frigate's cap and make them an easy kill. Yes I agree with the neuts vs frigs, but the 2 neuts work against your cap obviously and TBO I'm just paranoid about NOS for the upclose gank. Rather be in something less cap vulnerable if I'm going to be in neut range. The neuts have a 6km range, as Merin indicated the only time you should be using them is when **** has already hit the fan in which case the neuts will have more benefit than the nos. Having small NOS would be of very little benefit unless you consistently fly within range to use it which defeats the whole purpose of the setup. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Galliana Foresta Armada.	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:14:00 - [35] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: bldyannoyed I'll agree wholeheartedly on the frigate thing. Not so sure about the lack of tank though. The fit I run on my Zealot has 45K EHP and a massive 100 dps (LOL) tank provided by a c-type small rep. Not on a par with the Phantasm certainly but it's not gonna roll over either, and at 25-30km the amount of actual incoming DPS is severly reduced. And how much speed did you lose to fit that tank? While it's possible to get a decent tank on a Zealot with a plate + rigs, mid-range ships live or die by their speed. Do you really want to give up so much of it for a tank that won't save you if you get caught in web/scram range? Originally by: Galliana Foresta Wat, no afterburner? On a ship that needs to stay at 20km, or it dies? No thanks, I'll take a MWD and avoid becoming a comedy killmail.
Alchemise Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:16:00 - [36] I might just be that my shield skills are godawful and haven't a clue what skills are needed - but I can't seem to get the tank 40 :S My shields are bad, but when I stick the skills up to 4 on eft it doesn't go above 40. At any rate, I doubt the tank will be huge. Since QR the days of the full nano zealot are over. Beam zealot is still practical nano'd though. My usual zealot fit at the moment is: Low 2 x Heat Sink II 1 x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1 x Damage Control II 1 x 'Meditation' Medium Armor Repairer I 1 x 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1 x Amarr Navy Armor Thermic Hardener Mid 1 x 10MN Afterburner II 1 x Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 1 x Faint Warp Prohibitor I High 4 x Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M 1 x Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Rigs Ancillary Current Router I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Moderate tank, nice dps, nifty etc. More importantly small signature radius. Thats the one thing that worries me about the Phantasm fit - 1382m^2 vs 125m^2. A Battleship with longrange ammo fitted could rip that Phatasm from the sky rather quickly whereas the Zealot will tank most BS with a 6km orbit. DPS isn't quite high enough to kill heavily tanked ships though. Pair it with a Recon with some token dps and your laughing. I can see the tracking bonus being handy, but only at real speed. In the old nano days, I would be flying the 3km/s 30km orbit, and that would need a 0.1 rad/s tracking speed. Since you'll be lucky to reach those speeds or that optimal in the Phantasm, I can't see it being that important. I'll have to have a look at some more ideas for a Phantasm fit. But hey. I've always looking for a decent faction cruiser fit, but I can never find one =/ Same way I trained to fly Command ships and use gang links, and never fly them. Such is life.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:35:00 - [37] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 20/12/2008 19:36:15 Originally by: Alchemise I might just be that my shield skills are godawful and haven't a clue what skills are needed - but I can't seem to get the tank 40 :S Train everything to V and get a siege warfare mindlink. Skill-demanding, but it helps. Quote: My usual zealot fit at the moment is: Err, is this a joke? No MWD = suicide. You only have a lower sig radius because you don't have a MWD, and if you don't have a MWD, you can't keep out of range of anything and quickly die. And I'm hoping that 4x HP II is a typo. You do realize the Zealot was boosted to have 5x guns, right? -----------
Alchemise Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Merin Ryskin And I'm hoping that 4x HP II is a typo. You do realize the Zealot was boosted to have 5x guns, right? Yea, its a typo. I'm not on my main machine atm and this version of eft is pre trinity 1.1 =S Originally by: Merin Ryskin No MWD = suicide. You only have a lower sig radius because you don't have a MWD, and if you don't have a MWD, you can't keep out of range of anything and quickly die. The days of an MWD being vital for survival is over. An MWD will kill cap and blow up your sig rad making you far more vulnerable than a lack of speed will. You can still approach targets fast enough to get in range and keep a point. When do you ever need to chase things at 1km/s? Thats what the inties are for. Still, its not just the MWD that fattens the sig rad. Those shield modules and rigs give a perma-sig rad penalty, which really hurts. This setup is good for solo roaming of small things and perfect for fast HAC/Recon gangs. Especially when the dps from opposing ships can be reduced with ewar, it provides DPS that doesn't instantly melt, and a steady point. There are very few ships I stick an MWD on these days. My curse mainly because I still haven't refit it for QR (or found a decent fit). But the MWD shouldn't be considered a must. At the end of the day when I engage targets It will be on a gate, or in a belt or around a station etc and never usually more than 30km away. Since the pulses reach out to ~24km your not in a hurry to get close.
ThrudUK Caldari The Cursed Navy IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.21 18:06:00 - [39] Merin, I like that, lots :)
Antimony Noske	Posted - 2008.12.21 20:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Alchemise An MWD will kill cap and blow up your sig rad making you far more vulnerable than a lack of speed will. Well, it's not running 100% of the time, it's just there to maintain the appropriate distance.

Alchemise Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.22 09:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Antimony Noske Originally by: Alchemise An MWD will kill cap and blow up your sig rad making you far more vulnerable than a lack of speed will. Well, it's not running 100% of the time, it's just there to maintain the appropriate distance. It kills your cap with the 25% penalty whether its on or not; and you'll be eating through those 800 charges very quickly everytime you cycle it. That and the number of inties who fit scramblers these days is rather worrying. Since the Zealot is effective at ranges 0 - 30km, I can't say I think the MWD is worth it. Thats the kinda range that all of us work at 90% of the time. Maybe if your doing solo work and need to be able to escape quicky should the **** hit the fan. But then you sacrifice the tank and plates that probably could have kept you alive in the first place. With the tanked Zealot, there is no set distance you need to keep. Preferably you want to be at about 6km to hit with conflag, if you need to be at that distance desperatley, your bound to against some slow moving heavily tanked opponent. In which case there will be plenty of time to get into range with the AB. The only ship I wouldn't wont to go against w/o an MWD is an Absolution. Tried that before and they hurt and solo you can't pack enough of a punch to break through one before it breaks you. Then again you usually use HACS to kill t1 BC and smaller solo. Then again I don't like solo work much anyways. Small gangs are my thing, couple of guys is all you need. S'all good.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.22 18:01:00 - [42] Unfortunately the Phantasm have a very small cargo bay for using a cap booster, but it IS in my opinion necesary... The Phantasm is a super awesome ship - such a shame it have the price of a command ship with the tank of a T1 cruiser... Dont ever think it's not a T1 cruiser when s...omething hits the fan... I love this ship... - I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew...
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.22 18:30:00 - [43] Originally by: Alchemise It kills your cap with the 25% penalty whether its on or not 18%. You are using a T2 MWD, of course? Quote: Since the Zealot is effective at ranges 11 - 35km Fixed - there's no reason to go below 11km on a zealot, it just hurts your tracking and puts you closer to blasters/AC range. You want a MWD to stay outside of the range of other people, unless you like blaster boats mwding onto you and eating you. Even with my range-rigged zealot I often find that I want the MWD to maintain range, to maximize the time spent before something faster than me (often a frigate) has to spend flying towards me, to burn back to gates, to get into point range, to get back to the main fight after I MWD'd 30km out to shoot a blackbird sitting at 100km... The zealot is nothing if not a mobile turret platform and fitting an AB instead of a MWD compromises that. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Alchemise Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.22 20:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Terianna Eri Fixed - there's no reason to go below 11km on a zealot, it just hurts your tracking and puts you closer to blasters/AC range. You want a MWD to stay outside of the range of other people, unless you like blaster boats mwding onto you and eating you. Running below 11km hurts the opponents tracking just as much as yours. Most of the time you'll have more tracking in the zealot than your opponent will. Its personal preference, but I find the MWD comprises the ships defences and does not lend enough of an advantage to warrant its use. I never fly solo much, and so don't need to squeeze whistles and bells on.
Double A	Posted - 2009.01.19 20:54:00 - [45] What would be a good Tech1 loadout?
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.19 21:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Double A What would be a good Tech1 loadout? For the Phantasm?? I would not fly such an expencive ship without T2 mods. Stick to a Harbinger until you can fly this with T2 ;).
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.01.19 21:37:00 - [47] Originally by: Alchemise Originally by: Terianna Eri Fixed - there's no reason to go below 11km on a zealot, it just hurts your tracking and puts you closer to blasters/AC range. You want a MWD to stay outside of the range of other people, unless you like blaster boats mwding onto you and eating you. Running below 11km hurts the opponents tracking just as much as yours. Most of the time you'll have more tracking in the zealot than your opponent will. Its personal preference, but I find the MWD comprises the ships defences and does not lend enough of an advantage to warrant its use. I never fly solo much, and so don't need to squeeze whistles and bells on. Okay, below 11km neither of you will have problems tracking, but every close range weapon tracks better than the heavy pulse laser. Incidentally, once you get to 10-11km range, enjoy getting webbed, scrammed, and torn apart by blasters and autocannons. Whatever works for you I guess, but if I'm going to be flying a slowish, tanking, ganking laser boat I take the Harbinger every time, and I can count a number of situations off the top of my head where I would have died horribly without my trusty overloaded MWD. Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Double A What would be a good Tech1 loadout? For the Phantasm?? I would not fly such an expencive ship without T2 mods. Stick to a Harbinger until you can fly this with T2 ;). I wouldn't fly any laser ship into combat without T2 weapons, personally. Without the ability to load Scorch (which is what you'll have loaded most of the time, especially on a ship like the Phantasm that wants to stay at range), pulse lasers aren't that hot. Definitely stick with a cheaper ship until you have T2 guns. Everything else that's T2 can be had pretty readily skill-wise, but the guns will take some time. Fortunately, once you do get them, you'll find that Scorch is wtfbbq amazing, so they're definitely worth the wait. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.01.19 21:40:00 - [48] Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 19/01/2009 21:41:31 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Double A What would be a good Tech1 loadout? For the Phantasm?? I would not fly such an expencive ship without T2 mods. Stick to a Harbinger until you can fly this with T2 ;). This. Hull cost alone for a Phantasm is over 200 million ISK, add in rigs + fit and you're easily looking at 300 mil, even if you don't fit faction mods (30km point = win). Add in implant cost, and the price tag is just huge. If you want to have any prayer of justifying that huge expense, you need to be able to use it to 95% or better of the ship's full potential. T1 fits just fail for two reasons: 1) Scorch is mandatory for the Phantasm to work properly (like most laser ships). You need to keep your range, and scorch is the only way to keep your damage at the same time. With just T1 guns, you're either up close and dead, or doing pitiful damage at 20km. 2) Not only are the T2 modules themselves mandatory, but a T1 fit is a concession that you don't have the skills to fly the ship properly. Just the lack of T2 guns is at least a 13% dps drop (5% from Medium Energy Turret V, 8% from Medium Pulse Spec IV), and it's a safe bet your other skills aren't to V either. Until you can fly the setup I posted, and get close enough to EFT's all-level-V character that it's not worth clicking on your character name to find out your exact stats, fly something cheaper. As for the AB vs. MWD issue: fit an AB if you want to become a comedy killmail, otherwise fit a MWD. Without a MWD, you can't keep your distance against blaster/AC ships, which means you will be webbed, scrammed, out-tracked, out-ganked, and probably out-tanked. In other words, you will die. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.01.19 21:50:00 - [49] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 19/01/2009 21:50:45 BTW Merin: I was playing with your fit in EFT: If you swap out one of the LSE II for another Invuln II and swap out the ACR for another CDFE rig... a. You get about 2,000 more EHP b. Your sig radius is smaller (between 100m3 and 140m3 depending on your shield rigging skill) c. The ship is cheaper (I think - ACR were more expensive than CDFE last time I checked) (with MWD active ofc) d. You have a second invuln to overload if necessary, so you have up to a 4,000 EHP difference in favor of the 2x invuln setup The only downside of course is that you're using an additional 4 cap/s, but that doesn't seem like it should break the setup. On a different note: 18.5x damage mod 4tw and Hasn't it been 14 days yet? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.01.19 22:02:00 - [50] Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 19/01/2009 22:03:41 Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 19/01/2009 22:02:19 Originally by: Terianna Eri Edited by: Terianna Eri on 19/01/2009 21:50:45 BTW Merin: I was playing with your fit in EFT: If you swap out one of the LSE II for another Invuln II and swap out the ACR for another CDFE rig... a. You get about 2,000 more EHP b. Your sig radius is smaller (between 100m3 and 140m3 depending on your shield rigging skill) c. The ship is cheaper (I think - ACR were more expensive than CDFE last time I checked) (with MWD active ofc) d. You have a second invuln to overload if necessary, so you have up to a 4,000 EHP difference in favor of the 2x invuln setup The only downside of course is that you're using an additional 4 cap/s, but that doesn't seem like it should break the setup. WTF. You are 100% right... I would've sworn I checked that combination and it came out with lower EHP, but you are right. Setup edited. Or, will be once Merin is un-banned. Now I just wish I'd known this before I put that damn overpriced ACR rig on mine... Quote: Hasn't it been 14 days yet? Almost. Merin will be back soon.

Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.01.19 22:10:00 - [51] Originally by: Sera Ryskin Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 19/01/2009 22:03:41 Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 19/01/2009 22:02:19 Originally by: Terianna Eri Edited by: Terianna Eri on 19/01/2009 21:50:45 BTW Merin: I was playing with your fit in EFT: If you swap out one of the LSE II for another Invuln II and swap out the ACR for another CDFE rig... a. You get about 2,000 more EHP b. Your sig radius is smaller (between 100m3 and 140m3 depending on your shield rigging skill) c. The ship is cheaper (I think - ACR were more expensive than CDFE last time I checked) (with MWD active ofc) d. You have a second invuln to overload if necessary, so you have up to a 4,000 EHP difference in favor of the 2x invuln setup The only downside of course is that you're using an additional 4 cap/s, but that doesn't seem like it should break the setup. WTF. You are 100% right... I would've sworn I checked that combination and it came out with lower EHP, but you are right. Setup edited. Or, will be once Merin is un-banned. Now I just wish I'd known this before I put that damn overpriced ACR rig on mine... hehe, re rigging it is not that expencive considering the price of the ship, and well worth imo . But yeah, he have a point, you get some more ehp from it. Its more cap dependant, but once you are getting heavily neuted its only a matter of time before you go down regardless
bldyannoyed Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.20 13:52:00 - [52] It's not as if ACR's are actually expensive now anyway. Last time i bought one in Jita it was 23 mill, and **** me if that isn't now the going rate fro trimarks and armor resist rigs, with Aux nanos and nano accelerators weighing at 25 mill a go. Also, I still think you'd be better off with a Zealot, especially if you went ahead and spent 300 mill on the bloody thing.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.01.20 16:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Sera Ryskin WTF. You are 100% right... Which is exactly what I proposed earlier in the thread about 1.5 months ago Originally by: Terianna Eri 18.5x damage mod 4tw Someone's lacking certain hardwirings :) Should be 19.5x(Well, 19.8x, but I doubt many would have spec @ V) :P
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: Sera Ryskin WTF. You are 100% right... Which is exactly what I proposed earlier in the thread about 1.5 months ago Well he just likes me more then I guess Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: Terianna Eri 18.5x damage mod 4tw Someone's lacking certain hardwirings :) Should be 19.5x(Well, 19.8x, but I doubt many would have spec @ V) :P Or some of us opted for the RoF hardwiring instead of the damage hardwiring __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Laou Tzu	Posted - 2009.03.13 16:59:00 - [55] I fly all the above mentioned ships on a daily basis. The harbinger is no doubt the strongest of the mentioned with 111.5k ehp, 616dps. Among the cruisers i have the best personal experience from the navy omen no doubt, it will beat a zealot easily, (1 interceptor is all it takes to kill a zealot cause of lack of tracking/drones/neuts). The phantasm is a bit of a mystery ship, its fun to fly at times and the tracking is good but i dont find it as brutaly effective as the zealot and navy omen, the stats on my fits for the 3 ships above are (bear in mind i have more armor then shield skills) worst to best Phantasm - 35.3k ehp 507dps Zealot - 59.3k ehp 515 dps Navy omen - 71k ehp 508 dps All 3 with scorch ammo. its still fun to varie and all 3 ships are good in combat and fun to fly, but if you go down to pure stats the Navy omen wins hands down. (above stats are with my skills/implants)
Guillame Herschel Gallente Buffalo Soldiers	Posted - 2009.03.13 17:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Since you'll often be using Scorch with both ships (14km is way too close to 13km web range, IMO) and are limited by the 24km range of warp disruptors, the Phantasm's tracking bonus will often be better than the range bonus. Compare your Phantasm fit to a Zealot fit with a True Sansha Warp Disruptor (33km range overloaded). Now, do you want range or tracking? *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
loldongs III loldongs industries	Posted - 2009.03.13 19:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: bldyannoyed Edited by: bldyannoyed on 12/12/2008 20:16:15 That tank is an 800 plate and some resists. It's still faster than a Phantasm. It wouldn't be with trimarks fitted but it doesnt have them so :P Mind posting the exact setup? To get 45k buffer (what I have on the Phantasm, yay siege mindlink) on the Zealot, every setup I tried either lost dps (from no heatsinks and/or smaller guns), lost the cap injector (no grid from a plate), or lost a ton of speed (from plates/rigs). Are you counting a slave set? yo dawg, i heard you liked zealots so i am going to put a zealot setup in your phantasm thread so you can read while you read zealot (I don't like this one, but I use it): Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating 800 Rolled Tungsten Plate Small Armor Repairer II Warp Disruptor II Small Capacitor Booster II w/200s 10mn Mwd II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Locus I Something I/Nothing zealot (I LIKE THIS ONE): Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Co-Processor II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II 10mn MWD II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Locus I Locus I/EM Shield Resist I Both require Squire PG4 implant, and its a good idea to buy damage implants for both of these and possibly an optimal range or tracking implant as well.
loldongs III loldongs industries	Posted - 2009.03.13 19:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Alchemise Originally by: Antimony Noske Originally by: Alchemise An MWD will kill cap and blow up your sig rad making you far more vulnerable than a lack of speed will. Well, it's not running 100% of the time, it's just there to maintain the appropriate distance. It kills your cap with the 25% penalty whether its on or not; and you'll be eating through those 800 charges very quickly everytime you cycle it. That and the number of inties who fit scramblers these days is rather worrying. Since the Zealot is effective at ranges 0 - 30km, I can't say I think the MWD is worth it. Thats the kinda range that all of us work at 90% of the time. Maybe if your doing solo work and need to be able to escape quicky should the **** hit the fan. But then you sacrifice the tank and plates that probably could have kept you alive in the first place. With the tanked Zealot, there is no set distance you need to keep. Preferably you want to be at about 6km to hit with conflag, if you need to be at that distance desperatley, your bound to against some slow moving heavily tanked opponent. In which case there will be plenty of time to get into range with the AB. The only ship I wouldn't wont to go against w/o an MWD is an Absolution. Tried that before and they hurt and solo you can't pack enough of a punch to break through one before it breaks you. Then again you usually use HACS to kill t1 BC and smaller solo. Then again I don't like solo work much anyways. Small gangs are my thing, couple of guys is all you need. S'all good. I don't think you "get" the zealot. lolafterburner will get you annihilated. Also, an unrigged, properly fit, tech 1 bc will destroy a hac without a problem if they get in close range.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.13 23:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Merin Ryskin Since you'll often be using Scorch with both ships (14km is way too close to 13km web range, IMO) and are limited by the 24km range of warp disruptors, the Phantasm's tracking bonus will often be better than the range bonus. Compare your Phantasm fit to a Zealot fit with a True Sansha Warp Disruptor (33km range overloaded). Now, do you want range or tracking? Tracking. Sure, the Zealot might win in a 1v1, but a 1v1 isn't the test of which is the better ship. And it's not like the Zealot's advantage here is a surprise, the Zealot has far superior resists for that matchup, and should win most of the time. Now, for general PvP, you have to consider the limits of point range. First, forget the overload, you can't keep it up forever (especially if you need to overload your other mids), and against tougher or multiple targets, you'll have to come in closer at some point. Second, ignore the max range, you'll need to fight at somewhat closer range to give yourself a buffer against the target overloading its MWD and breaking out of range. Once you consider those factors, the Zealot's range bonus in a 1v1 looks much less impressive than the 50km gang setups. Sure, you'll be getting a bit of an advantage over the Phantasm, but only a couple KM, while the Phantasm gets the full 25% tracking in all situations. -----------
xxxak Caldari O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 06:57:00 - [60] I like this set up. Going to test it more in the near future.

Eardianm Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.03.24 09:26:00 - [61] Just starting to fly this myself, solo or small gang. Do you find the neuts + 3 warriors are enough for frigate defense? I've currently got an em rig for your ACR, and a GN web in place on the second LSE II (and a DCU II with 2 heat sinks). Max shield skills and mindlink, so still right around the 40k ehp mark. First real laser boat I've tried (coming from missiles), so I don't know tracking wise if the web is required for smaller stuff trying to get in my face, or general oshi- moments. --------------
NaBeRa DRUCKWELLE Evolution The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.03.29 08:44:00 - [62] [Phantasm, T2 only edited] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x3
Holy Lowlander Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.29 09:04:00 - [63] that phantasm needs more faction fittings :) they stole my sig :'(
Sural Beta	Posted - 2009.03.30 09:39:00 - [64] This whole frigate defense discussion is a moot point. A single frigate will not kill a Zealot before the Zealot makes it back to the gate unless the frig has double webs. A pack of frigs will almost always kill a Zealot no matter what. Considering the above to be true, why the whole anti-frig discussion in the first place?
Ripley Wisdomseeker	Posted - 2009.06.15 09:14:00 - [65] Originally by: NaBeRa [Phantasm, T2 only edited] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x3 What about the em hole? Wouldn't it be better to swap 1 CDFE rig for a em-resi one?
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.07.02 22:33:00 - [66] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 02/07/2009 22:33:01 Originally by: Sural Beta This whole frigate defense discussion is a moot point. A single frigate will not kill a Zealot before the Zealot makes it back to the gate unless the frig has double webs. A pack of frigs will almost always kill a Zealot no matter what. Considering the above to be true, why the whole anti-frig discussion in the first place? What if you get caught by a frig when you're 20k off the gate and it has a scram? Or, god forbid, you're fighting in space instead of at a gate? Edit: oops, necro __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.


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