Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nura Taron wrote:Oh I see now. So like the way I can choose what to buy in real life and it made a can of soda cost $10,000. Wait, that didn't happen? That's because, at the back-end of the process, the sugar, and water, and chemicals (and even, to some extent, the collective work) that go into that can of soda are being bought and sold using exactly this kind of systemGǪ GǪand then the manufacturers, logistics, retailers and sales points add various mark-ups to that base price. Quote:Well then I guess people aren't going to suddenly stop caring what things cost just because they can choose who to buy from. It's not about caring GÇö it's about inherent mechanical pressure towards a common mean. I buy my milk and cigarettes from CVS even though I buy my other groceries from Sweetbay. Why? CVS sells those things way cheaper. There would still be an inherent pressure towards lower prices; competition. If someone charges $7 for a pack of Marlboros almost nobody is going to buy from them until they lower the price. |
Hiram Alexander
Seraphim Securities
208
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote: I buy my milk and cigarettes from CVS even though I buy my other groceries from Sweetbay. Why? CVS sells those things way cheaper. There would still be an inherent pressure towards lower prices; competition. If someone charges $7 for a pack of Marlboros almost nobody is going to buy from them until they lower the price.
I buy tons of stuff in Jita every single day, but today I also bought...
Mechanical parts in Uedama, Suroken and Kaimon... because they were ~much~ cheaper, and I had free time for travel. No-one said you can't shop around to 'choose' where you buy... |
Rengerel en Distel
Khanid Research Corporation
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
No idea why people hate the 0.01 isk game. You're always driving the price down, or up. When placing buy orders, the people that annoy me are the ones that drive up the price nearly to the sell price, or just some random number. If there is profit still in the item, people are just going to 0.01 you again, so all you're doing is reducing profit. Don't assume bad intent, when stupidity is the much more likely cause. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5983
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:21:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:I buy my milk and cigarettes from CVS even though I buy my other groceries from Sweetbay. GǪand again, the EVE market is a commodity brokerage market, not a supermarket GÇö the two can't really be compared since they operate on completely different principles and with completely different goals.
The fundamental design decision remains: they've gone for the former because it makes for a much more efficient market that tends towards the equilibrium price for any good that much quicker. Would there be competition without it? Yes, but it would be much less efficient. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
0.01 isking makes sense for low end minerals. However, it's absurdly stupid when something is already priced a million or more. 1,000,000 and 999,999.99 are effictively the same price even if not exactly the same. There should really be some sort of minimum % of the per item listed price that an order can be adjusted. 0.05% or so should do it. Then we'd see some REAL upward or downward pressure.
|
Richard Hammond II
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Rath Kelbore wrote:I'm confused.
If there are two sell orders for the same item and one is at 100 and the other is at 150 and I buy the order at 150, The person listed at 100 gets 150 isk ? Yes.
Yeah that doesnt make sense to me either Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5983
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
Richard Hammond II wrote:Yeah that doesnt make sense to me either That's because you're thinking supermarket rather than brokerage firm. It makes perfect sense if you change your point of comparison.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hiram Alexander wrote:Nura Taron wrote: I buy my milk and cigarettes from CVS even though I buy my other groceries from Sweetbay. Why? CVS sells those things way cheaper. There would still be an inherent pressure towards lower prices; competition. If someone charges $7 for a pack of Marlboros almost nobody is going to buy from them until they lower the price.
I buy tons of stuff in Jita every single day, but today I also bought... Mechanical parts in Uedama, Suroken and Kaimon... because they were ~much~ cheaper, and I had free time for travel. No-one said you can't shop around to 'choose' where you buy... You're right, nobody said that. Why are you bringing it up?
Tippia wrote:Richard Hammond II wrote:Yeah that doesnt make sense to me either That's because you're thinking supermarket rather than brokerage firm. It makes perfect sense if you change your point of comparison. No it still doesn't make any sense. People are thinking supermarket because that's what it's like. |
Ghoest
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
The easy way to stop the bot advantage is basically give everyone a bot that works on a 15 min cycle.
It would also give us a more efficient market. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5983
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:You're right, nobody said that. Why are you bringing it up? Because it's the parallel to what you're looking for: a way to pick and choose your source. You did bring it up, but your continual assumption that you're dealing with a supermarket means you're not quite grasping either of the differences and parallels.
Quote:No it still doesn't make any sense. Also, people are comparing it to a supermarket because that's exactly what it's like. No, it's nothing like a supermarket. You're not buying anything GÇö you're placing buy (and sell) orders with a brokerage house, and they go out and find sell (and buy) orders that match your wishes. There is no picking one shelf over another, only a selection of a desired price point and trade volumes. There's a reason why you're paying brokerage fees, rather than VAT, on those market ordersGǪ
People are comparing it with a supermarket because that's all they know of, not because it's what they're dealing with, and it's this mismatch between familiarity and reality that is causing things not to work the way they expect them to work. What they're dealing with is that brokerage model, where all trading is indirect and through proxies and where you as the customer have no control over the source or destination beyond the reach and range of the trade floor.
Again, as soon as you stop thinking of it as a supermarket (which it isn't) and start to think of it as, say, something more like a stock market (which it is), it makes perfect sense.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why having a choice of who I buy from will magically make prices skyrocket with an explanation that isn't just a long-winded version of "just because". |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5984
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why having a choice of who I buy from will magically make prices skyrocket with an explanation that isn't just a long-winded version of "just because". I just did: because it removes the mechanism that absolutely forces prices towards the mean and makes the market much less efficient in moving in that direction. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
306
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:10:00 -
[43] - Quote
Spy 21 wrote:Bot or no bot I hate the .01 ISK undercutters... if you wanna be the cheapest than knock out the next guy by being 1 mil cheaper :).. so to me, they are all just BOTS!
Again... an old resentment.
More of a personal problem there... but the reason I post is I really did think I got the order I clicked on, not simply whoever did the last 0.01 ISK drop.
S
If all the sellers dropped by a million the bottom would pretty much fall out of the market, there would be no point in even trying to sell stuff. I do the 0.01 isk thing sometimes and even then if I see a price going to low I just wait for the lowest orders to be bought up before putting my items in at a higher price. While I'm sure there are bots, the 0.01 isk thing is a way of trading by real people. To the whiners :-áCCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" CCP Recurve "However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are"
|
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nura Taron wrote:And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why having a choice of who I buy from will magically make prices skyrocket with an explanation that isn't just a long-winded version of "just because". I just did: because it removes the mechanism that absolutely forces prices towards the mean and makes the market much less efficient in moving in that direction. No it doesn't. Competition already does that. What you told me was "It just will. Because I said so!". |
Richard Hammond II
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Richard Hammond II wrote:Yeah that doesnt make sense to me either That's because you're thinking supermarket rather than brokerage firm. It makes perfect sense if you change your point of comparison.
Id have to understand brokerage firm first and I dont Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you. |
Argyle Jones
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:15:00 -
[46] - Quote
Spy 21 wrote:Bot or no bot I hate the .01 ISK undercutters... if you wanna be the cheapest than knock out the next guy by being 1 mil cheaper :).. so to me, they are all just BOTS!
I'm on the completely opposite end of this argument. If people undercut my order I actually prefer that they do so by 0.1 ISK. When you undercut my order any significant amount you lower the whole selling market for that item and cause every other seller to either lose ISK or to have to wait for your order to be bought out.
That, and if you undercut by a large enough margin, someone will simply buy your order and put it up for resale immediately.
So please undercut me by as small an amount as possible.
/Yargle
|
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
306
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:. If someone charges $7 for a pack of Marlboros almost nobody is going to buy from them until they lower the price.
In this case I would raise the price of the cancer sticks =)
To the whiners :-áCCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" CCP Recurve "However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are"
|
Richard Hammond II
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:16:00 -
[48] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:Nura Taron wrote:. If someone charges $7 for a pack of Marlboros almost nobody is going to buy from them until they lower the price. In this case I would raise the price of the cancer sticks =)
CANCER MERCHANT!!
CANCER MERCHANT!!
CANCER MERCHANT!!
CANCER MERCHANT!!
CANCER MERCHANT!! Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
Richard Hammond II wrote:Tippia wrote:Richard Hammond II wrote:Yeah that doesnt make sense to me either That's because you're thinking supermarket rather than brokerage firm. It makes perfect sense if you change your point of comparison. Id have to understand brokerage firm first and I dont Don't worry, even brokers don't. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
181
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
I sell a huge amount of stuff on the market, and I ALWAYS undercut by just 0.01 ISK. I COULD undercut by a lot more, but then someone else would STILL undercut by a lot more. We need to sell our stock one way or another, and morinically undercutting by huge amounts just decreases everyone's profit. Sure you can buy the 10th cheapest if you like, but the large majority of players buy off me because I'm at the top of list in order of 'Cheapest First'.
It's caviler morons who like to undercut by huge amounts that cause the problems, they're not just harming their own profits, but everyone else's too. But alas, there are a few who will always undercut me by a million while I continue to undercut them by 0.01 ISK. Many do quickly learn that they can't win by making stupid cuts though, as they realise they will still get undercut again as soon as the other trader notices.
Market bots ruin all of this of course. But people who think undercutting bots by more than 0.01 is somehow going to fool them seem to be particularly delusional. UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5984
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:25:00 -
[51] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:No it doesn't. Competition already does that. What you told me was "It just will. Because I said so!". No, I said that it won't be as efficient, and it's efficiency that's the goal.
Competition will do that, to some extent, but it doesn't remove the mechanism that ensures that the highest buy/lowest sell gets the goods, which opens up for consumer stupidity and other inefficiencies. The whole system is set up to remove those inefficiencies.
You're not Joe Q. Public looking for Brand X or Station Y fuel for your car/heater/light aircraft, paying by the litre what's posted on the pump GÇö you're ChemCorp Global looking for 80 bajillion barrels of crude oil at a cost of 800 bajillion ISK for the lot, to fill your cracking, reselling, stockpiling, and plastics manufacturing needs. As long as you get the require amount at the required price, the exact derrick it comes from is ridiculously irrelevant to your business GÇö going into that level of detail and micro-management will only distract you from your real business and cause you to lose money. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
165
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
On a related note, the Contract system is actually a lot closer to the supermarket analogy than the open market is. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:45:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nura Taron wrote:No it doesn't. Competition already does that. What you told me was "It just will. Because I said so!". No, I said that it won't be as efficient, and it's efficiency that's the goal. Competition will do that, to some extent, but it doesn't remove the mechanism that ensures that the highest buy/lowest sell gets the goods, which opens up for consumer stupidity and other inefficiencies. The whole system is set up to remove those inefficiencies. Competition only encourages a movement towards the right price GÇö it doesn't absolutely force it the way this system does. Again, you need to change perspectives. You're not Joe Q. Public looking for Brand X or Station Y fuel for your car/heater/light aircraft, paying by the litre what's posted on the pump GÇö you're ChemCorp Global looking for 80 bajillion barrels of crude oil at a cost of 800 bajillion ISK for the lot, to fill your cracking, reselling, stockpiling, and plastics manufacturing needs. As long as you get the require amount at the required price, the exact derrick it comes from is ridiculously irrelevant to your business GÇö going into that level of detail and micro-management will only distract you from your real business and cause you to lose money. You're not in the business of comparison-shopping GÇö that's what the brokerage firm is for GÇö you're just asking them to fulfil your needs so you can get on with your business. GǪnow, if we could only move on from having a spot market and onto having a futures and derivatives market, the real fun could begin. I fail to see why I should care if the inevitable happens slightly more efficiently. I am not ChemCorp Global. I am John Q. Public wandering the aisles looking for an autocannon, two skill books and an afterburner. I see an afterburner I like and put it in my cart when suddenly the shopping police jump out from behind the smartbomb shelf pointing a gun at me and forcing me to buy the wrong afterburner. How isn't like like a grocery store? I can see that there are several different companies selling the product. I can see who is selling each one. They all have a price tag. Okay, so maybe I'm not physically pushing around a gun the size of a bus in my giant shopping cart, but the experience is far closer to shopping at newegg than investing in the silver market. |
Souvran Star
Dragon Clan Ev0ke
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 23:55:00 -
[54] - Quote
3 pages for a guy who didnt get the point of the 0.01 ISK game -.- |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5985
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 00:00:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:I fail to see why I should care if the inevitable happens slightly more efficiently. Because it's not nearly as inevitable without the efficiency, and you end up paying moreGǪ
As pointed out above, look at the relative efficiency of the contracts market if you want to see what competition alone will do to prices.
Quote:I am not ChemCorp Global. I am John Q. Public wandering the aisles looking for an autocannon, two skill books and an afterburner. Then maybe you should go use the contract system instead, since that's more what you're looking for. Just because your volume and price point is 1 @-á150k ISK doesn't mean you're not trading on a commodity brokerage market, using commodity brokerage market rules.
Quote:I see an afterburner I like and put it in my cart No, for the simple reason that there is nothing about the afterburner to like GÇö it's a fungible good, indistinguishable from all the other afterburners. You're simply telling your broker to go out and find one for you and deliver it to your hangar GÇö (s)he's the one who picks one that (s)he likes (and only because it fits your buy order), puts it in the cart, pushes it through the checkout, and dumping it in your delivery post box.
Now, if you really want them to add the second layer of a consumer market, where you can do what you want (and without the fiddly:ness of the contracts market), then go aheadGǪ but you'll only end up paying a whole lot more for no good reason compared to using the spot market. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 00:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
The way the market is set up encourages 0.01isking bot or no bot.
Sadly I'm one of those folks with day trading who updates every 20minutes or so if needed by 0.01 while mission running/mining/whateverelseitisIdoontheCQsofawithaboxoftissuesandalargetv
For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
|
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 00:04:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, for the simple reason that there is nothing about the afterburner to like GÇö it's a fungible good, indistinguishable from all the other afterburners. It isn't indistinguishable from other afterburners. It's being sold by a corp I'm at war with and I would rather not pay for bigger ships for them to kill me with. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5985
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 00:11:00 -
[58] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:It isn't indistinguishable from other afterburners. It's being sold by a corp I'm at war with and I would rather not pay for bigger ships for them to kill me with. GǪand it's indistinguishable from other afterburners because it's the exact same afterburner no mater who creates. The stats and values don't change one iota just because it's from an enemy corp. Afterburner A is afterburner A is afterburner A, irrespective of the unconnected and irrelevant factor of it coming from manufacturer X, Y, or Z.
If you want to discriminate between sellers, use the contract system. This won't make the afterburner any different (because it's still the exact same fungible, indistinguishable good), but at least you get to control the source.
Quote:You go take a look at the contracts and (after 10 minutes of fighting with the ****** interface) tell me how many medium afterburner 2 you managed to find that weren't attached to a ship or thrown in with a bunch of other random stuff for no apparent reason. GǪand why is that? Could it have anything to do with it being a less efficient market by any chance? The mechanism for discriminating between buyers and sellers is there and available to everyone, and yet no-one is using itGǪ hmmmGǪ
The fact remains: the market works the way it works because it makes the market that much more efficient, and efficiency is the design goal. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 00:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Could it have anything to do with it being a less efficient market by any chance? No, it has to do with being a less efficient UI. I know this might come at a shock, but people don't like to do things the hard way unless they have to. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5985
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 00:20:00 -
[60] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:Tippia wrote:Could it have anything to do with it being a less efficient market by any chance? No, it has to do with being a less efficient UI. I know this might come at a shock, but people don't like to do things the hard way unless they have to. GǪand apparently, the need isn't there. What you're asking for exists; it isn't being used; the reason why the market works the way it works remains the same: efficiency. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |