EVE Search - Scamming destroys the market in Eve

All Channels

Market Discussions

Scamming destroys the market in Eve

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Han Omega	Posted - 2008.12.09 14:45:00 - [1] Lets face it close to everyone who played Eve lost bc of scamming the one or other isk, no one wants to tell it no one wants to admit it but it happens. One reason is for example unclear desciptions, wrong descriptions of the whole contract, failures in the contract systems what would not be possible in the "real" world and would lead to a seat in the jail just. i know people sell it too expensive often, that's fine and this happens everywhere. but to sell another item than it really is - is not possible and should not be possible. or simply open up the system that you than can shoot the scamming pirates at least - its nothing else than piracy without any possible drawback and no justice. things to change - no name for the contracts anymore choosen by the person when you trade an item for money or visa verse should be impossible to want both - cash and item, or sell and item and give out cash - its plain stupid bug and you could in real reverse such a contract easily if you sell ships what are rigged and have a lot of items its not clear enough marked what belongs already inside the ship people who sell often items far above the market value should get permanent standing looses as shooting others - its piracy as well if you sell a ship for 6 mils for 100 mils navy version i am sure there are more sensful changes, not everyone wants to play as a pirate this game. please think about this before you answer. thanks in advance. (oh and sorry for my bad english skills :))
SentryRaven KIA Corp	Posted - 2008.12.09 14:51:00 - [2] The issue is that scamming and "screwing people over" is part of the game concept and CCP is not going to change anything there. It's always been the player's and pilot's duty to check what contracts he is accepting and verify it's legit... CCP does not want to hold people's hands while they go shopping. --------
Malidia	Posted - 2008.12.09 14:55:00 - [3] you can get scammed in rl so why not in eve?
Han Omega	Posted - 2008.12.09 15:23:00 - [4] but in real you can go in justice and get your money back, the trader in prison or other things and here you cant do anything plus in the end its a game and should have not the more bad aspects than the reality what would be just plain stupid or you do not agree to this? many people who are paying customers are surely no pirates, its about majority and who is paying this game. i have nothing about the lowsec / 0.0 sec system being risky, but jita is more risky than to be a goon in delve.
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.09 15:26:00 - [5] Working as intended if you ask me. By the way, a quick and easy thing to improve your post would be to start every sentence with a capitalised letter. FREE! jumpclone service
brinelan Caldari Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.09 15:45:00 - [6] Scamming most of the time can be avoided by reading and avoiding things that are too good to be true. Seriously, did you really expect to get that nice 100m isk faction ship for 40m by opening a trade window with some random player? Did you really think that someone would just triple any amount of isk you gave them? The stuff I see people fall for in jita day in and day out... But ya, avoiding scams is no different then avoiding getting your ship shot up when its full of valuable cargo... pay attention and use your head. -------------------------- Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield
Cierejai Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.09 15:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Han Omega but in real you can go in justice and get your money back, the trader in prison or other things and here you cant do anything plus in the end its a game and should have not the more bad aspects than the reality what would be just plain stupid or you do not agree to this? many people who are paying customers are surely no pirates, its about majority and who is paying this game. i have nothing about the lowsec / 0.0 sec system being risky, but jita is more risky than to be a goon in delve. Real Life: The government has a responsibility to protect dumb people from themselves. EvE: Learn to read.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2008.12.09 15:51:00 - [8] I tend to be one of the minority who believes that the scamming possible in EVE is harmful to both the market and the game. Scamming tends to be a bad deal for the person scamming and the person scammed. Last night my wife informed me that her son's father is suffering from kidney failure, and is getting the minimal treatment provided by the state prison system. Even if he wasn't slowly dying in the hoosegow the fact that he had few friends and no support system would have been punishment enough. The fact that he wrecks the lives of all the people around him as often as he can just makes the whole thing just that much sadder. Markets operate on trust and consequences. In EVE, there simply aren't any meaningful consequences so all that is left is trust. Scams attack the basis for trust between individuals and introduce a great deal of inefficiency and outright silliness into market relations. I am completely okay with pirates. The ones I have dealt with are decent enough, and a little risk is part of the game. I personally think scam artists are a sad, pathetic little lot. There are a few professionals at it that I can appreciate, but the one true professional scam artist I know is truly the most pathetic human being I know. The saddest thing is the big money in the game is found doing honest business. Outside of a few very rare 100b+ scams, most scam artists get a few billion and forever tarnish the reputation that could be used to make a lot more money. A rather silly trade. The fact that the game encourages scams has always been a sign to me that CCP isn't quite ready for the big league. - Lexander Morinex
Vall Kor Minmatar Player VS Player	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Lexander Morinex I tend to be one of the minority who believes that the scamming possible in EVE is harmful to both the market and the game. Scamming tends to be a bad deal for the person scamming and the person scammed. Last night my wife informed me that her son's father is suffering from kidney failure, and is getting the minimal treatment provided by the state prison system. Even if he wasn't slowly dying in the hoosegow the fact that he had few friends and no support system would have been punishment enough. The fact that he wrecks the lives of all the people around him as often as he can just makes the whole thing just that much sadder. Markets operate on trust and consequences. In EVE, there simply aren't any meaningful consequences so all that is left is trust. Scams attack the basis for trust between individuals and introduce a great deal of inefficiency and outright silliness into market relations. I am completely okay with pirates. The ones I have dealt with are decent enough, and a little risk is part of the game. I personally think scam artists are a sad, pathetic little lot. There are a few professionals at it that I can appreciate, but the one true professional scam artist I know is truly the most pathetic human being I know. The saddest thing is the big money in the game is found doing honest business. Outside of a few very rare 100b+ scams, most scam artists get a few billion and forever tarnish the reputation that could be used to make a lot more money. A rather silly trade. The fact that the game encourages scams has always been a sign to me that CCP isn't quite ready for the big league. - Lexander Morinex Yep I agree. And as much as CCP wants EVE to go mainstream it never will as long as scams are possible. It will remain a niche and never grow. Although to each their own. Reading can save you millions. "Forbid a man to think for himself or to act for himself and you may add the joy of piracy and the zest of smuggling to his life." Elbert Hubbard
Elder Langley Langley Trading and Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:24:00 - [10] Speaking of scams... Did anyone else read the incredibly long post in COAD of someone claiming to be Currin Trading? Here
SentryRaven KIA Corp	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:34:00 - [11] Yes, although James is knows to be talking out of his back orifice sometimes, so I wouldnt put much weight on his claims. --------
Elder Langley Langley Trading and Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:42:00 - [12] Originally by: SentryRaven Yes, although James is knows to be talking out of his back orifice sometimes, so I wouldnt put much weight on his claims. That may be, but if you have the time and can get past the wall-o-text it is an interesting read. I especially liked looking at the old forum topics he provided addresses to. I had read Currin's Geo-site "confession", but I had not realized that EIB stayed afloat for so long after Currin's accusations.* *Yes, I am relatively new to the game, and was not around back then. That is the end of my tread derailing. As for scamming; I do know I would not be playing the game today if it wasn't for a news story covering a large corp theft.
FunzzeR Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:44:00 - [13] Scams in eve rely on buyers to fail to do their due dilligence to ensure they are getting what they are paying for, if buyers cannot be bothered to do that or are too busy, then they deserved it. Game mechanics should not be changed to accomodate players incompetence.
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:47:00 - [14] The second I saw the titel I saw: troll:P But scamming is a part of the game. its something that makes its possible to go from poor to rich in a second, and the other way. makes u stay on the alert. Eve without possiblty of scamming would be a dull place. Not that I would sell my name for a few bill. But the knowledge of that other might do it makes u closer to those u consider your real friends, whom u can trust the most. also make ppl like Chribba stand out ect.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:53:00 - [15] Originally by: FunzzeR Scams in eve rely on buyers to fail to do their due dilligence to ensure they are getting what they are paying for, if buyers cannot be bothered to do that or are too busy, then they deserved it. Game mechanics should not be changed to accomodate players incompetence. I can agree with this up to a point. I am often reminded of a story told to me by my good friend. He is now reaching the beginnings of old age, and his body is beginning to fail him. When he was young, he was a lion, always fighting and trying to rule the world. He thought that was the only way the world should work, and he did well. He truly believe in the 'natural order' and that was that. Now that he spends a few months in the hospital every year or so, and the younger, faster lions are now running all over him, his views have changed slightly. He is not as fond of this philosophy as he once was. I am a libertarian, and I don't like government intervention in markets. But I do believe that the one thing government is supposed to do is protect the integrity of contracts. Therefore, scams that involve offering one thing but providing another are exactly the kind of thing I might in theory propose for intervention. However, I recognize that CCP does not have the resources to fight this battle night and day, and I can live with what is. I do feel that encouraging and celebrating scams is harmful to the game, but we are getting pretty much what we asked for, so all is fair I suppose. When I play Diplomacy I don't complain that players are lying, so I can live with people scamming in EVE. I just think it is pathetic. - Lexander Morinex
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:57:00 - [16] I think if EvE is your first MMO you are going to be more vulnerable than others to scams. I played two MMOs before EvE so I looked with amusement when people got scammed alot on BYOM deals or when people paid upfront for the cost of an item. We were mining bistot to put corp members into battleships. We eventually got the cash for 3 battleships. One day I came back from work when one of my directors told me he paid someone for a Scorpion upfront and it would be ready in a few days. I was shocked, and then told him we would never see the money nor the ship. He didn't believe me, and he kept trying to pursue the guy, file petitions...all to no avail. He became embarassed and depressed, and quit a few weeks later. So yes, I do agree that unless GMs punish scammers like they do in other games, EvE will never be mainstream. As for "lol this can happen in RL". Scamming in RL carries huge risks and real conseqeuences. A scammer in EvE can take his winnings, buy a new char and no one would be the wiser. -------------------
Raaz Satik	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:04:00 - [17] Edited by: Raaz Satik on 09/12/2008 17:06:10 Originally by: Elder Langley Speaking of scams... Did anyone else read the incredibly long post in COAD of someone claiming to be Currin Trading? Here Great read, amazing how pathetic most (all?) of the reply posts are though. Anybody here able to vouch for the authenticity of the story?
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:05:00 - [18] Although I think scams are not nice and so I choose not to do them, I think they are an entertaining and important aspect of the EVE universe. What seems to be missing are courts. Well, more precisely what's missing are punishments: any pilot could run a court and set up a jury now to "decide" a dispute between two pilots (with possible "evidence" like API transaction logs and kill records)... but there are no real options for enforcement of the judgement. A "punishment" of a bounty or would a war dec mean nothing at all to a miscreant who actually seeks that sort of activity. Player-run Justice A key change I would be interested to see would be an optional system that pilots could sign on to to certify that they are "legitimate" traders... with some sort of player-run justice system ("commercial arbitration tribunals"?) with powers to punish pilots who break their commitments. This might require having some new penalties available other than the feeble "getting a bad reputation" or the unwieldy/unavailable "war dec", e.g., maybe you could post skill points as a bond, like for every 1 million SP you are "bonded" by the justice system for 200 million ISK, and you could put further ISK in escrow to increased this bonded amount. Then if you are judged to have transgressed, you forfeit the skill points and ISK.
Chomin H'ak Integrated Takeovers	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:06:00 - [19] Edited by: Chomin H''ak on 09/12/2008 17:09:20 OK, see, I'm of a different mind. And no, I've never scammed. Too many long-term consequences and neither me nor my alts can afford distrust. I personally believe scamming has helped form stronger markets and offerings and thus has a vital role in the Eve marketplace. For example, someone offers an IPO. The IPO is scrutinized by many who are looking for a scam. This is because of the effect scamming has had. So when legitimate IPOs are offered, those who have done their homework can offer something that gives confidence in their product (because the alternative is to not get funding). Likewise, the contract purchasers learn what to and not to look for in their travels and gain experience (hopefully) after making mistakes and advancing as well. Yes, the scams evolve, but so does our understanding of what is perceived as a quality product. Personally, I have not been scammed (because I scrutinize my purchases before clicking anything) and I disagree with your assumption that everyone has. To those who are paranoid by nature, everyone and everything is suspect. tl;dr That which does not kill the market, makes it stronger. Edit: To prove my point, how many of you traders would fall for the common e-mail scams we hear about lately? Why/why not? Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:07:00 - [20] If scamming was not a part of this game, then soon stupidity would be protected aswell, and then where would we make our profit margins? Eve would be a much lesser game, if it did not have such a "harsh" darwinistic approach. -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Treelox If scamming was not a part of this game, then soon stupidity would be protected aswell, and then where would we make our profit margins? Eve would be a much lesser game, if it did not have such a "harsh" darwinistic approach. The problem is not that EVE should have a less 'harsh' approach, but that it should have more. There is precious little real justice in EVE. The system does not let you penalize the scammer at the level that would discourage the scammer in the future. The only 'harshness' in EVE is that players are forced to walk through the middle of the city in bright white clothes while everybody around them wears black cloaks and carries a dagger. But even that 'harshness' is hollow because all they can really do to you is rob you since you can't be killed. Scams are a part of life, but so are penalties for scamming. In my own RL case I get to watch a guy rot in prison for 10 years of his miserable life for trying to steal millions He gets the wonderful pleasure of having someone tell him what to do everyday, and his serious medical conditions get basically ignored. Somebody else raises his son for him, and he only gets to see him a few times a year. So I figure he has paid his price. The penalties in EVE only go one way. Until scammers can be properly punished for scams, then the system is broken as designed. - Lexander Morinex
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:36:00 - [22] Edited by: Treelox on 09/12/2008 17:36:42 Originally by: Lexander Morinex Originally by: Treelox If scamming was not a part of this game, then soon stupidity would be protected aswell, and then where would we make our profit margins? Eve would be a much lesser game, if it did not have such a "harsh" darwinistic approach. The problem is not that EVE should have a less 'harsh' approach, but that it should have more. There is precious little real justice in EVE. The system does not let you penalize the scammer at the level that would discourage the scammer in the future. Why should contract scammers be punished? When the victim has only themselves to blame? Those stupid enough to be scammed, get scammed. Darwin working as intended, or do I need to hold your hand as you walk through the middle of the city? ---edit refrence to contract scammers, since that is what the OP is on about. -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
Raaz Satik	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Treelox Why should contract scammers be punished? When the victim has only themselves to blame? Those stupid enough to be scammed, get scammed. Darwin working as intended, or do I need to hold your hand as you walk through the middle of the city? ---edit refrence to contract scammers, since that is what the OP is on about. Since you specifically avoid it, how does your opinion change with regards to IPO or Bank scammers?
shortattenionsp	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:47:00 - [24] I don't mind people running scams / pyramid schemes or whatever. The contract system is way too easy to abuse however though. I don't mind people being scammed because of social engineering or a cunning well laid trap, but most contract scams just take advantage of CCP's poorly designed system. There should be no way to link and item that isn't part of the contract. There should be no way to make a contact that takes an item from the accepter plus some isk (i.e. buying for a minus amount). Clever scamming is fine with me, exploiting a contact system thats full of flaws is mostly for the lame.
Valrandir Gallente Blood Inquisition	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Han Omega its piracy as well if you sell a ship for 6 mils for 100 mils navy version (oh and sorry for my bad english skills :)) You can't force someone to buy your 6mil ship for 100mil. However, you can choose to buy a ship for 100mil. It's not piracy to try, it's stupidity to buy. You are responsible not to fall for scams. This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
FunzzeR Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Originally by: FunzzeR Scams in eve rely on buyers to fail to do their due dilligence to ensure they are getting what they are paying for, if buyers cannot be bothered to do that or are too busy, then they deserved it. Game mechanics should not be changed to accomodate players incompetence. I can agree with this up to a point. I am often reminded of a story told to me by my good friend. He is now reaching the beginnings of old age, and his body is beginning to fail him. When he was young, he was a lion, always fighting and trying to rule the world. He thought that was the only way the world should work, and he did well. He truly believe in the 'natural order' and that was that. Now that he spends a few months in the hospital every year or so, and the younger, faster lions are now running all over him, his views have changed slightly. He is not as fond of this philosophy as he once was. I am a libertarian, and I don't like government intervention in markets. But I do believe that the one thing government is supposed to do is protect the integrity of contracts. Therefore, scams that involve offering one thing but providing another are exactly the kind of thing I might in theory propose for intervention. However, I recognize that CCP does not have the resources to fight this battle night and day, and I can live with what is. I do feel that encouraging and celebrating scams is harmful to the game, but we are getting pretty much what we asked for, so all is fair I suppose. When I play Diplomacy I don't complain that players are lying, so I can live with people scamming in EVE. I just think it is pathetic. - Lexander Morinex I hear what you are saying. I don't scam nor do I have any interest in scamming, as I still have a conscience and know other ways to make more isk without trampling on the aforementioned conscience. Still, I am of the opinion that incompetience and stupidity should not be coddled nor protected when the player should know better/fails to do his due dilligence. The only group that would need protection from scams and such are new players who have not had the chance or time to learn about it.
Gankbear Amarr Gankbears	Posted - 2008.12.09 18:08:00 - [27] Caveat emptor HOWEVER i do agree scammers shouldnt be immune from prosecution, the game shouldnt allow someone to sit a alt in jita station, never undock and scam billions for the benefit of their main who never suffers the consequences. I kind of hope they do eventually develop a combat system for ambulation, you should be able to hunt down all those cowards who never undock from J4-4 and beat them to death. ----------------------------- Gankbears Sarcasm hits fail thread for 249 lolcatz causing it to be locked. CCP Mitnal laid the final blow.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.09 18:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Raaz Satik Originally by: Treelox Why should contract scammers be punished? When the victim has only themselves to blame? Those stupid enough to be scammed, get scammed. Darwin working as intended, or do I need to hold your hand as you walk through the middle of the city? ---edit refrence to contract scammers, since that is what the OP is on about. Since you specifically avoid it, how does your opinion change with regards to IPO or Bank scammers? As far as IPO and Bank scams go, I dont have a problem with them either. Does it suck to be caught in one, yes it does. That said I have used my time wisely, and only been caught up in 2 such scams in +2.5yrs of investing. Both from when I first started, and one of them I was barely caught because I had started divesting myself already before it all fell apart. For the record, the two were; SVE and EIB. and yes I specifically avoided it because my first post in this thread had been comments directed at the OP's rant on contracts. It became obvious to me as I was writing my 2nd post in this thread that my comments might have been taken out of context. Even with IPO and Bank scams though, often those that get caught up in them, are those that buy in without doing any research, fail to pay attention to their investment once made, or blindly just become a lemming because everyone else is investing. In most of those cases they have no one but themselves to blame. -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2008.12.09 18:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 09/12/2008 17:36:42 Those stupid enough to be scammed, get scammed. Darwin working as intended, or do I need to hold your hand as you walk through the middle of the city? The logical extension of this argument is that I should be allowed to shoot you for being stupid enough to be somewhere near me when I fire the bullet. - Lexander Morinex
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.09 18:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 09/12/2008 17:36:42 Those stupid enough to be scammed, get scammed. Darwin working as intended, or do I need to hold your hand as you walk through the middle of the city? The logical extension of this argument is that I should be allowed to shoot you for being stupid enough to be somewhere near me when I fire the bullet. - Lexander Morinex Only if I was stupid enough to be in front of the muzzle... -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.