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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.12.11 21:10:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Dragonz Fire
Originally by: Frenden Dax
Originally by: cosmoray How could you tell if a business SCAMMED or failed.
In some cases *cough*New Moon Industries*cough* both can happen. :P
To my mind there's no difference between a scam and a failed business (i.e. FuryBank). Whether or not the intent was to scam, the result is the same.
there is a HUGE difference. a scam is deceiving. Someone provides MISinformation. A failed business did not have an initial intention to fail. Often times an investor gets his money back from a failed business. I would still invest my money in someone who had a failed business. I would not invest my money in someone who scams.
A RL example. Donald Trump made billions of dollars. And then he lost almost ALL of it. People invested in him and he now has billions of dollars again.
There are many other people who failed their first couple of times at business and then succeeded to become billionaires. Are they scammers? no.
Apart from the fact that Trump is still bust.
He doesn't own anything, he takes maintenance fees from running buildings. He can't get loans because he has defaulted to many times.
You default on loans or business, you don't raise money again in Eve or RL without a gaurantor. e.g. Trump has companies provide mortgages for all his buildings.
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Ralarina
Caldari Vivicide
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Posted - 2008.12.11 22:03:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Vall Kor Reading can save you tens of billions.
FYP -- Ralara's Alt (due to Forum ban) |
Jukhta Mein
Domini Umbrus R.U.R.
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Posted - 2008.12.12 03:52:00 -
[93]
A recent law in my country made it illegal for travel advertisments to advertise travelling fees in the manner of:
TRAVEL TO THE MALDIVES NOW FR $99!*
*Fees not inclusive of fuel surcharges, airport taxes, abcxyz. For a full list of terms and conditions please see below or visit our website at convenienttravelling.com.
Advertisments are now required to disclose the real cost of the travel deal without a ton of fine print. Based on public feedback this change went down very well with consumers because this greater transparency saves 1) the travel newbie who gets a rude shock when he realises the real cost of the package 2) the average traveller a lot of time and effort in calling up the travel agency of a particular ad to check out the real cost of the travel package.
You would think the travel agencies wouldn't welcome this change for greater transparency but on the contrary many of them did. This is because they feel the change levels the playing field for them and saves them resources on potential customers asking questions as well as customers lodging complaints upon realising the real cost of the travel package.
Those who say that the ones in Eve who were scammed are the ones at fault, should also agree that the travel customers are the ones at fault if they pay higher costs than they wanted to because they were too lazy/inept to check the full cost of the travel package, and I'm not sure if many would take that stand in real life. If you do agree that the customer is at fault though then fine, at least you are consistent in your stand in analogous (I hope) situations and I can't do much to persuade you against your consistent belief.
Ultimately however, we want to note that, in the context of the travel example, consumers just want to get a genuine leisure deal befitting their budget and established, non-shady agencies just want to sell their genuine services at genuine prices. In the context of Eve the consumer just wants to get a genuine navy raven issue and the seller wants to sell his genuine good at a good, mutually agreeable price. We don't need shady, ambiguous contracts both in real life and Eve to distort this system of trade.
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Simo98
International House of PWNCakes B.L.A.C.K.
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Posted - 2008.12.12 04:18:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Han Omega
It is indeed always possible to avoid everything, the thing is - if i get blown away in a blob of pirates in 0.0 - what is possible if you do not use 2 scouts on other comps and land with your cloak ship in a bubble and some interceptor pilot is better than you or has some luck - than you will get blown out of your ship.
you could however not go to 0.0 at all, or even low sec, thus avoiding the problem entirely. by the same token you can not go to jita, or not buy of contracts, sure its an inconvenience, but your avoiding scammers.
Originally by: Han Omega
but now I can do something against those people who just blown me out - I could come back with some friends, I could pay some Merc's or I set some bounty on their head.
what is to stop the pirate from docking up in empire and never undocking again? hell be safe there just like the scammers.
if you want to get back at the scammers, sit in local and every single time he post a contract inform people its a scam. youll probably put a nice dent in his profits.
Originally by: Han Omega
Anyways I can not do anything against spammer and have just work with them. And the fact is they do sell many contracts, look at them and what they sold already as scam. So this is a problem, no matter that I never bought a scam, or some "clever" people here neither did. This is not the matter and I am not calling anyone stupid at all - never did.
i didn't say you were calling anyone stupid.
you dont have to work with scammers, block them, don't go near them, just ignore them. there will always be scammers, the more people who play eve, the more scammers there will be. there would be not much point bothering CCP with something like this, they can spend there time doing something much more useful.
Originally by: Han Omega
Since when is scamming a profession? Did i missed something? It is nothing else than piracy and no to take double price of a product is not the same, but to take more than 10 times the amount is forbidden by law *in real* - in real market you have borders. And in Eve yet not, but it is partly maybe a thing to think about. But to simply sell all products in the market would solve a lot of it, the automatic system would work well against the scam.
why do you not consider it a valid profession? piracy is considered a valid profession in eve, as is trading like i said. how is blowing up peoples ships ore buying/selling modules are rediculiously unfair prices any different?
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Han Omega
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Posted - 2008.12.12 15:33:00 -
[95]
Quote: you could however not go to 0.0 at all, or even low sec, thus avoiding the problem entirely. by the same token you can not go to jita, or not buy of contracts, sure its an inconvenience, but your avoiding scammers.
You could also to avoid to get quoted not do any post. Notice something now? I think everyone is big enough to decide what is dangerous and what not, i made this post here to dampen this scamming, that it will never end thats ok, but you can dampen it. A solution I already pointed out would be to sell all items over the normal market, so over contract system would be only needed to sell rigged / multiple trades. I want to trade from time to time and I want to have fun with it and not get chain spammed in Jita. And I am looking for a way to go against people who spam the whole local with garbish. And please do not forget you can trade pilot licenses over the market which are now scamable - and this is really not a good thing.
And no scamming is no profession, it is a way of life - but that's about it. A profession is something you learn, something you need knowledge for and something where you really need to put some energy inside. To sell a Raven as Navy Raven is certainly not a hard thing, unless you think bc you built in a sand box some small houses you are Donald Trump.
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testalus rima
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Posted - 2008.12.12 17:28:00 -
[96]
if sth changes or not at least i can use this thread for adding some people to my black list plus i ll put jita to my avoid list hangars for frighters asset and map |
JorEl Tarasque
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Posted - 2008.12.13 00:19:00 -
[97]
Edited by: JorEl Tarasque on 13/12/2008 00:19:27 Intentionally misleading people in a contract sale or other part of trade should not be considered 'part' of the game because there is not checks and balances or cause and effect which we have in real life.
With out these it shouldn't be part of the game play.
Pirating is a valid profession, (Hijacking shipments, blowing stuff up) is valid because there is at lease a security factor in dealing with these. Calling some people 'ignorant', (Some use another word, which I am not fond of.) because they may not understand are miscomprehend the fine print they read is not part of the game.
Make it a game, make it fun for all. If I wanted to get scrammed and screwed ALL of the time I would stay at work! (at least there I would be getting paid for it, instead of paying for it.
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Amy Mouse
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:42:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Amy Mouse on 16/12/2008 16:44:21 PUNISH ME! IVE BEEN BAD AND SINNED WHILE MAKING BILLIONS! -Honestly, I like scamming since it has no consequences. -I scam strangers, and if they are stupid, they will fall for my scams. Its purely their fault, since I only provide a way for them to be stupid and lose money. If they take time to read it, they know its fake. -some say language barrier makes people fall for scams I say if your russian only, go play russian only games. Not my fault your playing a game in english. Im sure ccp has other language versions and they still fall for it. -If you dont like eve type games, go play game that fits your needs. You get what you paid for, you didn't pay for a nanny. IRL, you do pay for a nanny in TAXES
bubbye :)
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ingenting
20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:21:00 -
[99]
Quote: Scamming destroys the market in Eve
prove it _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu *BAAOOM*... Told you, newb." |
720
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:35:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Amy Mouse Edited by: Amy Mouse on 16/12/2008 16:44:21 -Honestly, I like scamming since it has no consequences. -I scam strangers, and if they are stupid, they will fall for my scams. Its purely their fault, since I only provide a way for them to be stupid and lose money.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. I'm only talking about IPO/Bond issues here, but the presumption is that if you get scammed you have made a mistake. However there doesn't seem to be a robust system to use to make 'smart' choices. And if you are scammed there certainly isn't any system of retribution, unlike nearly every other aspect of EVE. In fact, the system of alts and character purchasing insures that there are no consequences for scamming.
I wish I had a good solution but I think the fix is going to need to be something more substantial than a single post could manage. It be nice to form a working group to at least look at this issue, and come up with possible mechanisms to either provide retribution toward Bond/IPO scammers or greater security during the process.
I have no problem with the lack of safety in the EVE world because it is predicated upon the idea that you can always seek revenge at some point. Yet with regards to Bond/IPO scams, you cannot.
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Amy Mouse
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Posted - 2008.12.16 20:14:00 -
[101]
I would say it is all a trust issue with bonds/IPO, you are giving them your money, in exchange, some monthly return or such. IRL, government insures your deposit up to a certain point for most governments, but in eve, your trust is your only insurance.
Should you TRUST the bond/IPO manager? you are taking a chance. It also does not help that eve world, everyone is anonymous, so that your chances of being scammed are multiplied.
Your investments are proof that you trust that bondsman/ipo manager. If they scam you of your money, I see it that it is more of a trust issue than not having enough deterrent to prevent them from scamming you.
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Anticoriolis
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Posted - 2008.12.17 01:15:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Anticoriolis on 17/12/2008 01:15:07
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2008.12.17 01:28:00 -
[103]
Without the freedom to do evil, the decision to not do it becomes meaningless. |
Kalenia Rostok
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:55:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kldraina Without the freedom to do evil, the decision to not do it becomes meaningless.
Without repercussions for doing evil, the decision to do it becomes easy.
I know if I was CCP, I'd take a giant ban-stick to repeat scammers for driving away paying customers. CCP's bottom line > scammer's joy at stealing from people.
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Filofox
Amarr 28 Disciples and a Kangaroo
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:48:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Filofox on 14/01/2009 22:48:58 I think EVE should be available for everyone, even those who can't read!)
Plus, there's a really easy way to avoid item scamming, and that's better icons. It's simple and if CCP's too lazy I don't mind doing it. Here:
Example: Invulnerability Field I
Invulnerability Field II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Now extrapolate for ships, etc.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:57:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Filofox Edited by: Filofox on 14/01/2009 22:48:58 I think EVE should be available for everyone, even those who can't read!)
Plus, there's a really easy way to avoid item scamming, and that's better icons. It's simple and if CCP's too lazy I don't mind doing it. Here:
Example: Invulnerability Field I
Invulnerability Field II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Now extrapolate for ships, etc.
I'm forced to admit I *do* like that faction tag, it may already exist but the O tag is also nice.
Improve Market Competition! |
Filofox
Amarr 28 Disciples and a Kangaroo
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:11:00 -
[107]
O tag? |
Thoraemond
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:36:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Filofox O tag?
I'm guessing it would differential blueprint originals from copies. |
Forceflow
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:44:00 -
[109]
That actually is a very nice and simple way to differentiate goods.
Might want to consider bringing it to the CSM for them to suggest to CCP. |
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