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Gridwalker
Amarr
Divine Power.
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Posted - 2008.12.11 23:52:00 -
[1]
I'm tired of hearing about the latest drama bomb, so I thought I would share some figures on the Hulk vs. Mackinaw for ice mining.
Many people use Hulks for ice mining. They do this for several reasons.
1. Hulk's larger hold means not needing to dump ice every cycle.
2. Cheaper to buy a Hulk and use it for rock and ice.
3. Impression that three ice miners is better than two.
My corp mate mentioned that he wondered if the folks using Hulks to mine ice knew something we didn't. I decided instead of saying "Shut up and keep mining, fool!" I would actually run the numbers with T2 ice harvesters.
I ran the numbers with all relevant skills at level 5, though the ratios will work regardless of your skill. It does not include gang bonuses or ice mining implants. The math has been verified against real setups. Yes, it is very possible--and not too difficult--to fit two Ice Harvester Upgrade II's on a Mackinaw. Just don't expect any sort of tank. :)
Hulk = 40.92 units/hour (2) T2 upgrades
Mack = 40.96 units/hour NO UPGRADES (+0.1%)
Mack = 43.12 units/hour (1) T1 upgrade (+5.4%)
Mack = 45.01 units/hour (1) T2 upgrade (+10.0%)
Mack = 45.40 units/hour (2) T1 upgrades (+10.9%)
Mack = 47.38 units/hour (1) T1 and (1) T2 upgrade (+15.8%)
Mack = 49.48 units/hour (2) T2 upgrades (+20.9%)
In every case, when mining ice, a Mackinaw can outmine a fully T2 fitted Hulk. If you're serious about your ice mining, you should be using a Mackinaw.
If you are just helping out with a corp ice mining gang and rarely mine ice, you can, however, still do an excellent job in your Hulk.
-Grid
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Pernick
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.12 00:07:00 -
[2]
Truth!
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Satrani Destiva
Just Another Indy Corp
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Posted - 2008.12.12 01:51:00 -
[3]
Just ran the numbers and with my skills and bonus the mack is mining 1.3 lumps of ice per minute. In the hulk the best I can do is 1.4.
This is assuming there is no hauler assistance and you are shuttling to and from the station, allowing 200 seconds for warping both ways and offloading. With hauler assistance there is no competition.
Nice numbers. Wish I'd known this when I started mining ice.
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Gridwalker
Amarr
Divine Power.
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Posted - 2008.12.12 02:21:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Satrani Destiva
Just ran the numbers and with my skills and bonus the mack is mining 1.3 lumps of ice per minute. In the hulk the best I can do is 1.4.
This is assuming there is no hauler assistance and you are shuttling to and from the station, allowing 200 seconds for warping both ways and offloading. With hauler assistance there is no competition.
Nice numbers. Wish I'd known this when I started mining ice.
Would love to see the Hulk setup and skills you use to get 84 units/hour in a Hulk! Heck, how do you get 78 in a Mack?!
And yes, this all assumes you have haulers and such. But the key is "dedicated ice miner." If you're filling up your hold and warping back and forth, then use a Hulk, hands down. You can get something like three cycles in a Hulk rigged for cargo.
Oh, and if you are REALLY serious about your ice mining... get an ORCA on staff! Ice mining with an Orca is about as good as the experience gets.
-Grid
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.12 02:24:00 -
[5]
As I have posted before, the hulk has the perfect cargo hold with 2 expanders and 2 cargo rigs to mine ice for 30 mins. Which for me is great being I work at in a home office.
But yes when I'm not ice mining at work, I use the mac because it is far better to mine with.
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Satrani Destiva
Just Another Indy Corp
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Posted - 2008.12.12 09:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gridwalker
Originally by: Satrani Destiva
Just ran the numbers and with my skills and bonus the mack is mining 1.3 lumps of ice per minute. In the hulk the best I can do is 1.4.
This is assuming there is no hauler assistance and you are shuttling to and from the station, allowing 200 seconds for warping both ways and offloading. With hauler assistance there is no competition.
Nice numbers. Wish I'd known this when I started mining ice.
Would love to see the Hulk setup and skills you use to get 84 units/hour in a Hulk! Heck, how do you get 78 in a Mack?!
And yes, this all assumes you have haulers and such. But the key is "dedicated ice miner." If you're filling up your hold and warping back and forth, then use a Hulk, hands down. You can get something like three cycles in a Hulk rigged for cargo.
Oh, and if you are REALLY serious about your ice mining... get an ORCA on staff! Ice mining with an Orca is about as good as the experience gets.
-Grid
Im sorry I was half asleep when I posted It's 1.4 minutes per piece with the hulk and 1.3 minutes per piece with the mack.
Someone slap me.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.12.12 14:35:00 -
[7]
For most people it comes down to isk per effort rather than isk per minute. That and until QR the mackinaw had trouble fitting 2x T2 upgrades and had a smaller cargo hold. People using the hulk to mine often have cargo rigs and expanders, so mine far far less than the figure you indicate, but as above, they do it AFK, so the amount of time it takes isn't as important as them having a very full cargo when they return.
Or in the case of macroers and some others, they're taking into account the dock/undock time as they don't use haulers.
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Zxenis
Caldari
PezCo - Ice Services
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:29:00 -
[8]
i icemine in a hulk for one reason, i can tank rats in it better. BS rats hurt like hell in a mack.
if there is protection or someone else is tanking the rat, i load up the mack.
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 - 1527) |
Darkeen
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.19 00:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Darkeen on 19/12/2008 00:35:55
Edited by: Darkeen on 19/12/2008 00:31:39
Yep, this is fully detailed and explained (with stats) in Halada's Complete Guide to Mining, a Mandatory read for every miner.
Regards,
Jason Brisbane
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Odyessus
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Posted - 2008.12.19 08:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Darkeen
Edited by: Darkeen on 19/12/2008 00:35:55
Edited by: Darkeen on 19/12/2008 00:31:39
Yep, this is fully detailed and explained (with stats) in Halada's Complete Guide to Mining, a Mandatory read for every miner.
correct. the truth about the mackinaw has been out for some time. it wins over the hulk due to its reduced cycle time. if ur a solo ice miner - get some friends, and all you're wildest dreams will come true.
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brinelan
Caldari
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.12.19 16:14:00 -
[11]
Of course if you were to fit/use a ship for its bonuses instead of against them that would have made it much quicker to figure out which ship fits what role best =/
just an observation.
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
Korizan
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Posted - 2008.12.19 16:27:00 -
[12]
Very true and it can be restated with almost 0 math.
Hulk yields 3 pieces of ice per cycle.
Mack yields 4 pieces of ice per cycle.
Period, you don't need to know anything else.
Don't even bother with mods or skills in the calculations as they effect the ships in the same way
So net difference in using them in the calculations is 0.
Soooo
Hulk yields 3 pieces of ice per cycle.
Mack yields 4 pieces of ice per cycle.
End Line  (Unfortunitely I don't have the voice used in TRON)
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Swearingen
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Korizan
Very true and it can be restated with almost 0 math.
Hulk yields 3 pieces of ice per cycle.
Mack yields 4 pieces of ice per cycle.
Period, you don't need to know anything else.
Don't even bother with mods or skills in the calculations as they effect the ships in the same way
So net difference in using them in the calculations is 0.
Not so fast there, speedy. The mackinaw actually gets a penalty to ice miner duration which the hulk does not. So, with identically fitted Ice MLUs, the Hulk mines its' 3 blocks slightly faster than the mackinaw mines 4, but not fast enough to outdo the mackinaw overall.
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brinelan
Caldari
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.12.19 18:01:00 -
[14]
the penalty is offset by the exhumer skill so at exhumers 5 the penalty is 0%.
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
Korizan
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Posted - 2008.12.19 18:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Swearingen
Not so fast there, speedy. The mackinaw actually gets a penalty to ice miner duration which the hulk does not. So, with identically fitted Ice MLUs, the Hulk mines its' 3 blocks slightly faster than the mackinaw mines 4, but not fast enough to outdo the mackinaw overall.
Okay I will give you that
A Mack has
5 % reduction in duration per level 25 % LvL 5
A flat 25 % duration penalty
So essentially 0 % @ LvL-5
A Hulk Has
3 % Ice Harvester Duration per level or 15 % @ Level 5
So based on that a hulk can mine 3 % faster.
So in theory in time a hulk can in fact mine more then a mack.
Did you ever actually calculate how long ?
I ran it out 65,536 Cycles and the Mack was still in the lead.
But yes in THEORY a hulk can out mine a Mack
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Morgan Lorus
Caldari
Unstable Reaction Inc.
North Domain Defense Forces
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Posted - 2008.12.19 18:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Korizan
Okay I will give you that
A Mack has
5 % reduction in duration per level 25 % LvL 5
A flat 25 % duration penalty
So essentially 0 % @ LvL-5
Thats not correct.
Correct is:
(100-25%)+25% = 93.75 (and not 100)
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Seragon
Caldari
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.12.19 18:20:00 -
[17]
Simple math. You can use the same MLU's so toss them out. You have exhumers 5. You have someone else hauling for you. You have no fleet booster. Cycle time on a stock ice miner is 10 minutes. Done. Add upgrades, use better mining lasers, throw in a booster. the advantage remains the same.
Hulk:
3 Strips
3 Ice / Cycle
8.5 minute cycle time (ship bonus)
Result: 2.83 minutes / ice block
Mackinaw:
2 Strips
4 Ice / Cycle (ship bonus)
10 minute cycle time.
Result: 2.5 minutes / ice block
Overal result: Mackinaw mines more ice per minute.
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Mra Rednu
Amarr
FiFi LaFey Recruitment Services LTD
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Posted - 2008.12.19 19:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Seragon
Simple math. You can use the same MLU's so toss them out. You have exhumers 5. You have someone else hauling for you. You have no fleet booster. Cycle time on a stock ice miner is 10 minutes. Done. Add upgrades, use better mining lasers, throw in a booster. the advantage remains the same.
Hulk:
3 Strips
3 Ice / Cycle
8.5 minute cycle time (ship bonus)
Result: 2.83 minutes / ice block
Mackinaw:
2 Strips
4 Ice / Cycle (ship bonus)
10 minute cycle time.
Result: 2.5 minutes / ice block
Overal result: Mackinaw mines more ice per minute.
Underlined the bit where the hulk will outmine a mack.
Simple logic.
Can solo ice mine in a hulk better than in a mack cause of the size of hold.
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Barkel
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.19 23:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Morgan Lorus
Originally by: Korizan
Okay I will give you that
A Mack has
5 % reduction in duration per level 25 % LvL 5
A flat 25 % duration penalty
So essentially 0 % @ LvL-5
Thats not correct.
Correct is:
(100-25%)+25% = 93.75 (and not 100)
Errr....Why are you using "+" and "-"? Both the bonus and the penalty are multipliers.
Example at Exhumers V :
(T2 Harvester Duration) * (Mackinaw Penalty) * (Mackinaw Bonus) = duration
500 * 1.25 * .75 = 468.75
Or to put it using the base 100 that you used.
100 * 1.25 * .75 = 93.75
For that matter I'm still scratching my head over how your formula works to get the result.
(100-25%) + 25% = 93.75
(75%) + 25% = 93.75
100% = 93.75? 
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.20 01:42:00 -
[20]
I use a Hulk for ice mining cause I have one. I know 3*1 is less than 2*2 but it just means that I have to be afk for thirty three point three, repeating of course, percent more time.
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Cardinal Payne
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Posted - 2008.12.20 02:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Banana Torres
I use a Hulk for ice mining cause I have one. I know 3*1 is less than 2*2 but it just means that I have to be afk for thirty three point three, repeating of course, percent more time.
And do you scream "Leroy Jenkins" as you rush towards the ice?
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Gridwalker
Amarr
Divine Power.
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Posted - 2008.12.20 11:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Korizan
So based on that a hulk can mine 15 % faster.
So in theory in time a hulk can in fact mine more then a mack.
There is nothing mysterious about this, and theory has nothing to do with it. It is simple, factual, math.
There is no doubt that a Hulk's cycle time can be faster than a Mackinaw's. With perfect skills and two T2 upgrades:
Hulk Cycle Time = 500 * 0.75 * 0.85 * 0.91 * 0.91 = 263.96 seconds
Mack Cycle Time = 500 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 1.25 * 0.91 * 0.91 = 291.13 seconds
What you're not taking into consideration is, a Hulk only mines 3 ice per cycle, while a Mack mines 4 ice per cycle.
Hulk = ( 3600 / 263.96 ) * 3 = 40.9 units/hour
Mack = ( 3600 / 291.13 ) * 4 = 49.5 units/hour ( +21% )
Or you can do days:
Hulk = ( 86400 / 263.96 ) * 3 = 982.0 units/day
Mack = ( 86400 / 291.13 ) * 4 = 1187.1 units/day ( +21% )
Or even years:
Hulk = ( 31557600 / 263.96 ) * 3 = 358,663.4 units/year
Mack = ( 31557600 / 291.13 ) * 4 = 433,587.7 units/year ( +21% )
Or even centuries:
Hulk = ( 3155760000 / 263.96 ) * 3 = 35,866,343.4 units/century
Mack = ( 3155760000 / 291.13 ) * 4 = 43,358,774.4 units/century ( +21% )
It doesn't matter how long a Hulk mines, the Mack will always out mine it by 21%. It's not theory. It's math, pure and simple.
Now in practice, there are certainly quite a few situations where a Hulk is preferred to a Mackinaw. If you have a hauler, a Mackinaw is always the proper choice if you are going for maximum ore. If you do not have a hauler, and need to warp back to station with each load, then a Hulk is the more practical choice and logic dictates it will yield more ore.
Or does it? With cargo rigs, but keeping the T2 upgrades on the Hulk, you can mine three cycles before warping back to station. In my tests, it took 180 seconds to warp to station, dock, undock, and warp back to the belt. If you spread that over three cycles, that brings the cycle time of the Hulk to an effective 263.96 + ( 180 / 3 ) = 323.96 seconds.
For a Mackinaw, you need to warp back every cycle, but the Mackinaw also aligns for warp faster, so it only took me about 160 seconds. So... 291.13 + 160 = 451.13 seconds
Hulk: ( 3600 / 323.96 ) * 3 = 33.3 units/hour ( +4.4% ) [Cargo rigged, T2 upgrades]
Mack: ( 3600 / 451.13 ) * 4 = 31.9 units/hour [Warping every cycle]
Wow, not what we expected, was it? That's real close!
But guess what, a Mack CAN do two cycles if it gives up one T2 upgrade and replaces it with an expanded cargohold and rigs up.
Mack Cycle Time = 500 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 1.25 * 0.91 = 319.92 + ( 160 / 2 ) = 399.92
( 3600 / 399.92 ) * 4 = 36.0 units/hour [Only one T2 upgrade, warping every other cycle]
Wow! Was that unexpected? The Mack is winning out, even though it needs to dock more! Let's try the ultimate ice mining Hulk test... the five cycle Hulk, with T2 upgrades replaced with expanded cargoholds...
Hulk Cycle Time = 500 * 0.75 * 0.85 = 318.75 + ( 180 / 5 ) = 354.75 seconds
( 3600 / 354.75 ) * 3 = 30.4 units/hour [No T2 upgrades, warp every 5th cycle]
So a Mackinaw warping back EVERY CYCLE can potentially outmine a Hulk warping back only every five cycles! And if the Hulk keeps the T2 upgrades but has to warp back every three cycles, it only beats out the Mackinaw warping EVERY cycle by 4.4% !
I didn't originally do the math like this, because I don't like the variable that lag puts into the equation. It will also take a few seconds longer from system to system due to varying distances to the ice fields. But hopefully this gives something to think about the next time you break out the Hulk to do ice mining...
On the other hand, this IS only a game... and ice mining is not only boring as all sin, but not particularly profitable, either. If warping back and forth only twice an hour in the Hulk is the difference between mining SOME ice, and not mining anything at all, then the Hulk makes a heck of a lot more sense than a Mackinaw!
-Grid
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Pwett
Minmatar
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.12.20 13:30:00 -
[23]
I don't understand why this is a topic of debate.
A mackinaw mines ice faster than a hulk
A skiff mines mercoxit faster than a hulk.
_______________
Pwett
Founder
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Morgan Lorus
Caldari
Unstable Reaction Inc.
North Domain Defense Forces
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Posted - 2008.12.20 13:48:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Morgan Lorus on 20/12/2008 13:49:10
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