| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
GlimmerMan
   |
Posted - 2003.06.17 22:13:00 -
[1]
It is my understanding that surgical strike would give 3% extra damage per level, but in reality it gives lots more per level if you use heatsinks.
Instead of just altering the damage of the gun's modifier by x1.03^level it also multiplies each heatsink by x1.03^level, this means someone with level 5 surgical strike has thier heatsinks increased by a modifier of 1.16, 16% each. A stamped heatsink's modifier goes from 1.07 to 1.24
6 stamped at the same time would give you 3.64 instead of 1.5.
I know this skill costs 1 million isk so you'd expect it to be good, but is this the way it is meant to be, because I really think it is a bug, I mean look at the stats:
A player with no heatsinks will have his damage modifier increased by 16% the same player with 6 stamped heatsinks is gaining 264%. I think I see a problem!
__________________
- GlimmerMan |
Plasmatiq
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 22:30:00 -
[2]
Only with heatsinks or any damage modifier capable module?
|
GlimmerMan
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 22:40:00 -
[3]
I only have have heatsinks so I can't speak for other modules, but I'd assume so, you get an extra 1.03 for each module where heatsinks are concerned for sure.
6 damage effecting modules means you gain 1.03^(1+6) = 1.23 = 23% damage per level instead of 3% as advertised. A ship with 8 low slots has the potential to make surgical strike give 30% extra damage per level instead of 3%.
I can't believe for a second CCP really intended to have a skill that gives you an extra 30% extra damage per level at the extreem.
__________________
- GlimmerMan |
Shintai
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 08:01:00 -
[4]
It sounds like a bug. Else it will get nerfed :p
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
StoreSlem
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 10:08:00 -
[5]
whats the bug ?
multipliers dont add, they multiply.
|
GlimmerMan
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 12:07:00 -
[6]
StoreSlem: the bug is the fact that you should only gain the extra points to the gun's damage modifier, not to each item u have fitted that has a damage modifier.
You're getting 3% for the gun BUT then you get an extra 3% per item that effects damage.
i.e.
0 modifier items (MI) = x1.03 = you're getting 3% per level of the skill
0 MI = x1.03 = 1.03 = 3%
1 MI = x1.03^2 = 1.06 = 6%
2 MI = x1.03^3 = 1.09 = 9%
3 MI = x1.03^4 = 1.13 = 13%
4 MI = x1.03^5 = 1.16 = 16%
5 MI = x1.03^6 = 1.19 = 19%
6 MI = x1.03^7 = 1.23 = 23%
7 MI = x1.03^8 = 1.27 = 27%
8 MI = x1.03^9 = 1.30 = 30%
The surgical strike skill should only effect the gun's damage modifier, but it appears to effect the damage modifier on any item that effects damage modifier, these MI then pass on their extra damage to the gun.
Having 8 MI fitted means you're getting the surgical strike bonus added to you're damage 9 times per level instead of once.
__________________
- GlimmerMan |
Tradeer
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 13:26:00 -
[7]
It is not a bug. If all it did was give a 3% bonus to a turret then it would simply be a lower version of the basic turret skill.
It is a 1 million isk skill that takes a long time to train and is meant to be different than the Turret skill which gives 5% increase per level with Turret Guns. Surgical Strike is meant to reflect precise shooting at critical systems. Since they do not have the mechanics set up for targetting specific modules they have reflected the power of this skill by increasing the damage of turrets and damage add modules you have on your ship.
|
Shintai
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 13:38:00 -
[8]
And why doesnŠt it work on missile launchers? ;)
So say it should affect you weapon mods are out of mind. Try imagine the senario. I got a superlaser. I know where to hit to hurt you badly. Then I add a heatsink on it. And suddenly my targetskill increase to. so I hot even better than before. Tho I still shoot at the same place..hmm....odd..thats not what Surgical skill is. You complain about 1mio isk. Well, your medium turret skill was 500K. This adds to both hybrid, energy and projectile. So 1mio is a fair price for cruiser users. if you use large weapons. Its a cheap addon.
Else how much fun will it be, when one in a 8lowshot battleship does 2.5x more damage than you. because he trained the skill. Tho ship layout and everything else is the same. skills+weapons+dmgmods and then add 2.5x. I think we talk 15-20x damage here. Your battleship will be wasted in mere splitseconds when 7-8 large guns doing that.
Edited by: Shintai on 18/06/2003 13:39:15
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Comstock
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 13:55:00 -
[9]
Because missiles are self guided and not targeted by the person firing them.
There is some merrit to the fact that surgical strike is a 1 Million ISK skill and should have million ISK effects.
Edited by: Comstock on 18/06/2003 13:56:21
|
Shintai
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 13:58:00 -
[10]
You still pick the targetspot to hit ;)
unless F.O.F
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
|
|
Sykosys
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 14:55:00 -
[11]
Surgical strike is a gunnery skill and thus only effects turrets, not missles
Missles are a whole diffrent class of skillz thats why IMO is my it doesn't effect missles.
_______________________
"She'll fly apart sir,"
"FLY HER APART THEN!!!" |
Vidar Kentoran
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 17:30:00 -
[12]
This skill is clearly vastly overpowered the way it is, and it'll almost certainly be nerfed.
|
Sykosys
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 17:49:00 -
[13]
Actually I don't think the skill needs to be nerfed, I mean it does cost 1 mil and is a lvl 5 skill which would take days just to get from lvl 2-3 let alone weeks for 3-4, and months for 4-5.
What would be better is to give a secondary req that is very high as well like Traj analysis lvl 4 or somethin and make the primary req gunnery lvl 5 as well. But don't nerf it its supposed to be high powered. Its a skill that will take forever to train anyways so I don't see how this is a problem now.
It seems more like people are seeing the "POTENTIAL" of it. A potential that would be a long time in actually seeing. But if someone already has this skill at lvl 5 then it seems I am mistaken.
_______________________
"She'll fly apart sir,"
"FLY HER APART THEN!!!" |
Greyson Rogers
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 17:56:00 -
[14]
The problem with leaving it the way it is would allow a cruiser to take out a battleship....You could concievably have medium weapons putting out 1500 points of damage per shot
|
Paddyman
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 18:10:00 -
[15]
firstly if the facts are right by the author then i hope this will be nerfed ,with over 200% increase in power, its just plain madness in my opinion.
secondly, does it work with just heat sinks or do u know if it is all round with gyros aswell?
thanks you for pointing it out, have u sent a petition about it?
-=-=-=-The line between madness and sanity is often blurred because sane ppl cant see where madness begins until they cross it.-=-=-=-=-
|
Tradeer
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 18:23:00 -
[16]
A highly skilled cruiser pilot (high levels in critical combat skills) plus a well thought out ship layout, should and would trump a battleship with a poor pilot (Characters that rush through skill training to be able to pilot a battleship without raising their weapon and support skills), Or pilots that rush into the fray without coming up with good modular designs for their ship, and dont wait until they have some good equipment.
To many of you think of Battleships like they are invulnerable tanks. Those of you that were in beta know how untrue that is. It takes a skilled pilot, with a good design, and some kind of plan (tactics) to realize the full potential of a battleship. Not to mention taking a battleship out alone without any support is like a Bear being attacked by a pack of swift wolves. The wolves usually win.
So when you say a Cruiser pilot with a well trained, level 5 combat skill that took months to train, and costs a million isk can seriously hurt and may beat a Battleship (we are assuming of course that the battleship pilot does not also have such skills because if he did your entire point is moot since he would be getting the advantage of it too.) Then I hope your right. No need to nerf it, since it is working EXACTLY as is intended. Skills need to make a difference in this game. If someone puts out the money and the months of time just to train this one skill, then he should be see dramatic benefits. There is nothing stopping the Battleship pilot from also training his combat skills.
|
Shintai
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 18:28:00 -
[17]
Yes..skills should matter. But one skill shouldnŠt be a requirement. Without surgical strike you wont have any chance anywhere when fighting it seems.
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Vidar Kentoran
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 18:53:00 -
[18]
It's clearly not working as intended. To get this silly bonus it requires that you add damage modules... seems to me that damage modules exponentially multiplying the effect of a skill, whether it's a 1 million isk skill or a 10 million isk skill is nonsensical.
CCP really needs to check their stacking on everything in the game, because it is full of holes.
|
Fortoye Drak
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 19:16:00 -
[19]
Ironically this skill allows the exact same damage scores as with the "m0o incident" damages.
Just now you use basic weapons mods and level 3 in ss skill - so, its easier to do!
Press Liason
Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Naran Darkmood
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 19:29:00 -
[20]
this problem seems to exists with all moduls adding a percentage - I encountered it with cargo expanders. There seems to be a major flaw in the calculation process with moduls that affect values on a percentage basis.
-----------------------------------------------
The following bonuses may be awarded to you:
27 units of Basic Expanded Cargohold at if you complete the mission |
|
|
Tradeer
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 20:24:00 -
[21]
One skill making you more effective? Of course they should! If you want to make your ship a more damaging fighter then you buy the skill and train it. Its just that simple. It is a high cost, high time skill.
Some would rather work harder on Tactical Shields or some other skill to improve other facets of their ship. Someone with high Shield Management, and Tactical Shield Manipulation, along with a good ward or two becomes so damned hard to hurt it's almost not worth the time. So when you start exploring these high end shield skills I suppose you will want to nerf them too? Give me a break. The answer to what you consider imbalanced isn't always a nerf. Balancing can be achieved in much more realistic ways.
Having a high damaging skill set and modules can be balanced by having a high defense skill set, and modules. This stupid balancing with nerfs on everything doesn't make the game better, it just makes the guy that doesnt spend a moment thinking about creating a good character, or creating a good ship equal to someone that does. If you spend an hour or 2 pouring over stats, playing with designs and buying the best skills, for the strategy you want to employ then you should be able to absolutely waste the guy that doesnt! That should be the reward for smart play. Making everything equal is not balance, it is boredom.
If there is a high cost skill that takes months to train that will make you a better damage dealer and thats what your current strategy calls for then buy it, and train it.
|
BSOD
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 20:25:00 -
[22]
It's not a bug. It's the way the game is designed. Everything stacks multiplicatively.
Yes, using triple afterburners and triple overdrive injectors in a Tristan will let you go INSANELY fast. Overpowering? Maybe, until you realize that you've compromised its ability to do much else other than move fast.
Surgical Strike skill gives a 15% bonus max. Yes, it does stack with other items such as Stamped Heatsinks, but hey, you can buy stamped heatsinks too! And your disadvantage will be a maximum of 15%.
Hint: A number of the skills stack multiplicatively. Small turret skill is used in medium turret calculations. Also most cruisers have some sort of weapon bonus. So if a Gallente has Lv4 medium hybrid and L4 small hybrid, plus L4 frigate, his bonus is 1.2^3. But getting L4 in all those skills takes quite some time.
Should a Lv30 player in DAoC have a chance against a 50? No. Same here - The more you have invested in skills, the more powerful you will be. And a 15% advantage for months of training really is not that much.
----------------
Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Vidar Kentoran
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 21:21:00 -
[23]
The problem has nothing to do with players having or not having an advantage. Why do people always boil it down to "Man I played the game longer than you I deserve to win!!!"???
That has nothing to do with this. As others have pointed out, this brings damage _potential_ back up to the level before the low slot damage mod nerf.
This is a problem because it turns combat between large, expensive ships into a 5 or 10 second quake like reflex battle of who targets and fires first.
This is a major problem in a game like eve where you don't just respawn as if nothing happened - you lose a ton.
Battles between equally matched cruisers should take _minutes_, not seconds.
But CCP has already proven that they will take action when there are sick damage modifiers, so I would expect and plan for a nerf if I were anyone abusing this skill.
|
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 21:24:00 -
[24]
I think it should work this way, it's one of the most expensive skills on the market and the highest rank in the game (other than jove skills and titans). Rank 5 takes a TON of time to train, so if all it did was give 3% to damage mod I wouldn't even waste my time.
But I agree with Vidar, combat time needs to be lowered somehow.
Edited by: Xelios on 18/06/2003 21:26:07
|
Tenzo
|
Posted - 2003.06.18 23:00:00 -
[25]
erm actually it is a rank 4 skill guys not 5 :P
|
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.06.19 00:05:00 -
[26]
Mine says rank 5.
|
Pyroe
|
Posted - 2003.06.19 00:10:00 -
[27]
Quote: "Hint: A number of the skills stack multiplicatively. Small turret skill is used in medium turret calculations. Also most cruisers have some sort of weapon bonus."
Hint: Small turret skill only stacks with SOME weapons. As far as I'm concerned it is a SMALL turret skill and should not stack with medium sorry. There is a thread on this stacking and from what I can tell it is stacking on dropped weapons and not the regular weapons in game. These same dropped weapons were forgotten about in the patch and could hold thousands of rounds of ammo. The regular weapons in the game were adjusted to compensate the new volume of the ammo. IE 4 held 40 shells at .1 each and was reduced to .4, thus holding 40 shells at .01 each.
I suspect the stacking of small and medium turret weapons skills was another oversight with dropped weapons.
|
BSOD
|
Posted - 2003.06.19 14:04:00 -
[28]
Um, no. It's not just dropped weapons. ALL weapons (at least all hybrids) have their respective small turret skill factored in.
I have standard factory-made weapons on my ship, no pirate drops. My damage mods can only be explained by small hybrid skill being factored in.
I have small hybrid 3, med 2, and Gallente cruiser 2. Which means my damage mod if small is taken into account on a heavy ion blaster is 3.125*1.15*1.1*1.1 = 4.34. Which is what my damage mod is.
Worst case, if someone trains up ALL of the combat and weapons skills, their damage mod increases by 1.25^3*1.15 = 2.24. Now, that takes MONTHS to train with no shortcut to get only 2.24x the damage. Stamped Heatsinks and their equivalent appear to give a 7% boost now according to the stuff I've seen on eveauction. So if you fit 4 of them, that's a total improvement of 1.31. 2.24*1.31 = 2.93. Keep in mind that using all your loslots for Stampeds will sacrifice using those loslots for other stuff (defensive modules, power modules that might allow you to fit an extra gun which will give you a LOT more benefit than 31%...)
Meanwhile in DAoC, if I get poweleveled, I can do 100-200x+ the damage in a matter of weeks or less.
FYI, anyone complaining about a measly 2.93x damage mod should go train some shield skills. Shield modules stack too, you know. Or even better, train up ECM skills and get some ECMmodules. Can't shoot effectively if you can't lock, and 2.24 times 0 equals 0.
----------------
Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Quantum Matrix
|
Posted - 2003.06.19 14:17:00 -
[29]
Thanks to the author, I was trying to figure out the math on why my damage mod went through the roof.
To whomever asked: It works with all weapon mods, not just heatsinks.
My Gyros are at 1.16X each with SS 3.
-QM
What do we want?
Brains!
When do we want them?
Brains! |
Ilia Volyova
|
Posted - 2003.06.20 17:34:00 -
[30]
Isn't it cute how people keep defending something which is clearly a loophole so they can keep abusing it?
Does the skill decription say 3% on all weapons and weapon mods? Nope. It says only "on all weapons", nothing about mods.
Leaving the surgical strike skill stackable on weapons mods would result in making those a "must have" item, just like the MWDs once were. You could as well remove all other Low Slots Items from the game then...
Edited by: Ilia Volyova on 20/06/2003 17:34:37
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |