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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 20:52:00 -
[151]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:00:51
Scanning requires you to actively do something that distracts you from whatever else you are doing, local automatically updates and noticeably moves when enemies enter
For example, who is updating the max range scanner while engaging an enemy battleship, while rummaging through loot, or while having a nice chat with a new recruit? More than likely there pauses in there long enough for someone to slip in
Just make it so you can filter out asteroids from range scan, to more easily update the scan of the system and scroll for new items
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 20:52:00 -
[152]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:00:51
Scanning requires you to actively do something that distracts you from whatever else you are doing, local automatically updates and noticeably moves when enemies enter
For example, who is updating the max range scanner while engaging an enemy battleship, while rummaging through loot, or while having a nice chat with a new recruit? More than likely there pauses in there long enough for someone to slip in
Just make it so you can filter out asteroids from range scan, to more easily update the scan of the system and scroll for new items
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:13:00 -
[153]
Sorry, Bob, I'm still not convinced removing local is such a good idea.
All it does is introduce a permanent login-gank situation.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:13:00 -
[154]
Sorry, Bob, I'm still not convinced removing local is such a good idea.
All it does is introduce a permanent login-gank situation.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:17:00 -
[155]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:21:58
That was already addressed in another thread though. Removing pilots from local allows actual stealthy attacks to be possible in game, allows small corps to go undetected in 0.0 (provided they ninja mine in their thoraxes), and just puts some bit of doubt in the game.
I mean, assuming scanning is improved with a filter and a long range module for the new frigs, that log in ganks are stopped and the npc map is fixed, I really don't see anything wrong with it
Saying it should stay out, because of possible "unseen consequences" just doesn't make sense to me. They can always revert the local code to how it was
The idea of wasting skill points to see systems around you is just lame. What the hell's the point of all this then? Just another skill point sink? To force newer players to spend that much extra time catching up to everyone else?
I rather liked the concept of requiring scouts and deploying scanning sentries in space
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:17:00 -
[156]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:21:58
That was already addressed in another thread though. Removing pilots from local allows actual stealthy attacks to be possible in game, allows small corps to go undetected in 0.0 (provided they ninja mine in their thoraxes), and just puts some bit of doubt in the game.
I mean, assuming scanning is improved with a filter and a long range module for the new frigs, that log in ganks are stopped and the npc map is fixed, I really don't see anything wrong with it
Saying it should stay out, because of possible "unseen consequences" just doesn't make sense to me. They can always revert the local code to how it was
The idea of wasting skill points to see systems around you is just lame. What the hell's the point of all this then? Just another skill point sink? To force newer players to spend that much extra time catching up to everyone else?
I rather liked the concept of requiring scouts and deploying scanning sentries in space
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:20:00 -
[157]
I hope we all have fun doing 50 jumps "scouting" for something to shoot at, then.
If you're lucky enough to find anything that is.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:20:00 -
[158]
I hope we all have fun doing 50 jumps "scouting" for something to shoot at, then.
If you're lucky enough to find anything that is.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:22:00 -
[159]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:28:01
All alliances hunt NPCs. Whenever they get the chance
But getting doubts about removing pilots in space again, like 90% of my time in Eve is spent hunting down blobs on the map. Still pretty conviced NPC map will cover it, though
No doubts about removing local
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:22:00 -
[160]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:28:01
All alliances hunt NPCs. Whenever they get the chance
But getting doubts about removing pilots in space again, like 90% of my time in Eve is spent hunting down blobs on the map. Still pretty conviced NPC map will cover it, though
No doubts about removing local
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:26:00 -
[161]
What about undocking in 0.0?
Are we expected to have an alt with us at all times?
Imagine how bored we'll get of being killed during the "Loading space" screen when undocking......
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:26:00 -
[162]
What about undocking in 0.0?
Are we expected to have an alt with us at all times?
Imagine how bored we'll get of being killed during the "Loading space" screen when undocking......
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:28:00 -
[163]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:29:42
You should be able to do a 3rd person view of the station, that gives the same view of someone doing a "look-at" if they were in the stations grid. Sort of like looking out the windows
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 21:28:00 -
[164]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 21:29:42
You should be able to do a 3rd person view of the station, that gives the same view of someone doing a "look-at" if they were in the stations grid. Sort of like looking out the windows
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.07.19 22:52:00 -
[165]
I've suggested it before, but why not keep all the information as it is now and add tools to allow players to hide that information from the map?
For example, you could put in dampening emitters that have to be built around moons like POS do, and that need to be maintained to stay operational. Once such emitters are built in a system they'll hide certain things from the map, like pilots in space in that system. Keeping them like POS and not deployable will mean they can be used strategically to hide your operations or POS from the map, while the maintainence costs and construction-based design would make them impractical for hiding things like gate camps or fleet movements.
Seems to be a good compromise to me, what do you think?
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.07.19 22:52:00 -
[166]
I've suggested it before, but why not keep all the information as it is now and add tools to allow players to hide that information from the map?
For example, you could put in dampening emitters that have to be built around moons like POS do, and that need to be maintained to stay operational. Once such emitters are built in a system they'll hide certain things from the map, like pilots in space in that system. Keeping them like POS and not deployable will mean they can be used strategically to hide your operations or POS from the map, while the maintainence costs and construction-based design would make them impractical for hiding things like gate camps or fleet movements.
Seems to be a good compromise to me, what do you think?
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Arud
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Posted - 2004.07.19 23:26:00 -
[167]
 Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Arud
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Arud
I kinda like the anonymous idea :)
What about something that has been talked about for some time now, a skill that allowes you to see on the map few jumps around you, 1lvl in the skill mean one jump around you and so on.
We have something very similar up our sleeves.
ahhh I like 
On the sniffer subject, is it possible to encrypt part of the data so sniffers wont work?
Yes, but not feasible. Decryption at client side means encryption on the server side, and we don't want to do it in software, that's far too much unnecessary load (along with increased latency) and hardware encryption is expensive stuff, not to mention key management, etc.
ah I see, so just about everything must be done at the server side
This is obviosly a big problem, to make the map only show number of people in the system you are supposed to see. So the extra calculations involve checking for active relay stations in a certain table, which belong to your corp/alliance and then figure out all the systems you are supposed to see.
Well, I'm sure you guys will figure something out eventualy 
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Arud
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Posted - 2004.07.19 23:26:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Arud
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Arud
I kinda like the anonymous idea :)
What about something that has been talked about for some time now, a skill that allowes you to see on the map few jumps around you, 1lvl in the skill mean one jump around you and so on.
We have something very similar up our sleeves.
ahhh I like
On the sniffer subject, is it possible to encrypt part of the data so sniffers wont work?
Yes, but not feasible. Decryption at client side means encryption on the server side, and we don't want to do it in software, that's far too much unnecessary load (along with increased latency) and hardware encryption is expensive stuff, not to mention key management, etc.
ah I see, so just about everything must be done at the server side
This is obviosly a big problem, to make the map only show number of people in the system you are supposed to see. So the extra calculations involve checking for active relay stations in a certain table, which belong to your corp/alliance and then figure out all the systems you are supposed to see.
Well, I'm sure you guys will figure something out eventualy
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PASTOR TROY
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Posted - 2004.07.19 23:46:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Xelios
I've suggested it before, but why not keep all the information as it is now and add tools to allow players to hide that information from the map?
For example, you could put in dampening emitters that have to be built around moons like POS do, and that need to be maintained to stay operational. Once such emitters are built in a system they'll hide certain things from the map, like pilots in space in that system. Keeping them like POS and not deployable will mean they can be used strategically to hide your operations or POS from the map, while the maintainence costs and construction-based design would make them impractical for hiding things like gate camps or fleet movements.
Seems to be a good compromise to me, what do you think?
good idea
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PASTOR TROY
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Posted - 2004.07.19 23:46:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Xelios
I've suggested it before, but why not keep all the information as it is now and add tools to allow players to hide that information from the map?
For example, you could put in dampening emitters that have to be built around moons like POS do, and that need to be maintained to stay operational. Once such emitters are built in a system they'll hide certain things from the map, like pilots in space in that system. Keeping them like POS and not deployable will mean they can be used strategically to hide your operations or POS from the map, while the maintainence costs and construction-based design would make them impractical for hiding things like gate camps or fleet movements.
Seems to be a good compromise to me, what do you think?
good idea
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 23:48:00 -
[171]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 23:49:58
Wait, so to compromise for people that want to stealthily attack, the idea is to allow only people that build a permanent base to hide in their own home? Real sneaky.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.19 23:48:00 -
[172]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 19/07/2004 23:49:58
Wait, so to compromise for people that want to stealthily attack, the idea is to allow only people that build a permanent base to hide in their own home? Real sneaky.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.07.20 00:00:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Xelios on 20/07/2004 00:02:17
No solution to this problem will make everyone happy Bob, it's about finding the solution that will make the most people happy. Besides, how are you going to stealthily attack someone if you have no idea where they are? You'd send a scout. And once they see your scout, they'll make the assumption that he's not alone and send their own scouts. Numbers will be assessed, and one side will likely safe spot if those numbers are not in their favor.
Besides, the map is already horribly innacurate. A group of frigates could show up in one system on the map, but be in a system 4 jumps away the next time it updates. Not only that, but numbers are completely wrong too. At most you know there's some people over there, but not much more than that.
But thanks for the input, do you have any ideas for modifying this POS style system that would help with stealthy attacks?
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.07.20 00:00:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Xelios on 20/07/2004 00:02:17
No solution to this problem will make everyone happy Bob, it's about finding the solution that will make the most people happy. Besides, how are you going to stealthily attack someone if you have no idea where they are? You'd send a scout. And once they see your scout, they'll make the assumption that he's not alone and send their own scouts. Numbers will be assessed, and one side will likely safe spot if those numbers are not in their favor.
Besides, the map is already horribly innacurate. A group of frigates could show up in one system on the map, but be in a system 4 jumps away the next time it updates. Not only that, but numbers are completely wrong too. At most you know there's some people over there, but not much more than that.
But thanks for the input, do you have any ideas for modifying this POS style system that would help with stealthy attacks?
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.20 00:16:00 -
[175]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 20/07/2004 00:25:30
No, because obviously the attacking party isn't going to be the side with the permanent base
An alliance blob will eventually hunt npcs, all alliances can be counted on to do that. And some regions have routes are just a given that there will be enemies eventually. HLW-HED, DSS-0SHT, etc.
And say Alliance A is blobbing their usual HQ, and sees a frig enter local. OH NOS! A SCOUT! That doesn't mean anything, and any alliance that logs off their 30 BS fleet to a frig really doesn't deserve to be there anyway
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.20 00:16:00 -
[176]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 20/07/2004 00:25:30
No, because obviously the attacking party isn't going to be the side with the permanent base
An alliance blob will eventually hunt npcs, all alliances can be counted on to do that. And some regions have routes are just a given that there will be enemies eventually. HLW-HED, DSS-0SHT, etc.
And say Alliance A is blobbing their usual HQ, and sees a frig enter local. OH NOS! A SCOUT! That doesn't mean anything, and any alliance that logs off their 30 BS fleet to a frig really doesn't deserve to be there anyway
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.07.20 00:29:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Xelios on 20/07/2004 00:31:16
And removing pilots in space entirely may make it easier to do sneak attacks, but will destroy many other parts of alliance PvP in the process, so that's not a viable option either.
The other way to do this using POS would be to introduce sensor stations that will do the opposite of the dampeners. Ie to see information about a system or area of space you'd need to construct these stations. But this introduces a number of problems since the only places you'd want these stations is in contested space, which means they'd be very prone to being blown up and hard to keep supplied.
Quote:
And say Alliance A is blobbing their usual HQ, and sees a frig enter local. OH NOS! A SCOUT! That doesn't mean anything, and any alliance that logs off their 30 BS fleet to a frig really doesn't deserve to be there anyway
And you think this alliance won't hear a word about a fleet of 30 ships coming their way? I think it's safe to assume they'll know you're coming through their own scouts long before you actually reach them, which destroys your sneak attack anyway.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.07.20 00:29:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Xelios on 20/07/2004 00:31:16
And removing pilots in space entirely may make it easier to do sneak attacks, but will destroy many other parts of alliance PvP in the process, so that's not a viable option either.
The other way to do this using POS would be to introduce sensor stations that will do the opposite of the dampeners. Ie to see information about a system or area of space you'd need to construct these stations. But this introduces a number of problems since the only places you'd want these stations is in contested space, which means they'd be very prone to being blown up and hard to keep supplied.
Quote:
And say Alliance A is blobbing their usual HQ, and sees a frig enter local. OH NOS! A SCOUT! That doesn't mean anything, and any alliance that logs off their 30 BS fleet to a frig really doesn't deserve to be there anyway
And you think this alliance won't hear a word about a fleet of 30 ships coming their way? I think it's safe to assume they'll know you're coming through their own scouts long before you actually reach them, which destroys your sneak attack anyway.
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2004.07.20 06:36:00 -
[179]
Make all stations have a scanner screen so people arent undocking into certain doom.
As for no fights..well surely large fleet engagemtns are about locking down a tactical resource or route...FDZ, P3-EN are two very obvious examples. Ones a tactical npc outpost the other is a chokepoint from empire.
So large fleet battles will now be less aimless and because the systems in which they take place will tend to retain their stategic importance, CCP can allocate server resources to those points.
Again look at p3-en. It will always be a place worth fighting over for those in the north east of EVE, and has been a battlefield since always.
It just means that next time a massive fleet is put together it has a goal in mind..not wondering about attempting to be the ones with the warped upon advantage, aka blob wars!
What say you?
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2004.07.20 06:36:00 -
[180]
Make all stations have a scanner screen so people arent undocking into certain doom.
As for no fights..well surely large fleet engagemtns are about locking down a tactical resource or route...FDZ, P3-EN are two very obvious examples. Ones a tactical npc outpost the other is a chokepoint from empire.
So large fleet battles will now be less aimless and because the systems in which they take place will tend to retain their stategic importance, CCP can allocate server resources to those points.
Again look at p3-en. It will always be a place worth fighting over for those in the north east of EVE, and has been a battlefield since always.
It just means that next time a massive fleet is put together it has a goal in mind..not wondering about attempting to be the ones with the warped upon advantage, aka blob wars!
What say you?
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